;-)

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I don't know much about all that but the local radio station analyzed some of the bursts and came up with about 100 rounds per cycle. I would think the barrels would get really hot in short order and he would have to switch guns. I think there could have been several thousand rounds must have weighed hundreds of pounds. It is astounding he got that and all those rifles and they said he had shooting platforms too.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Why do I "need" it? Fuck you, that why! Of course, I am kidding.

Why? Because it is fun. That's it. Honest answer. It serves no real practical purpose. It is inaccurate, hard to control, and expensive as hell (i.e., it burns through ammo like crazy). Again, I'll be honest - it is really fun blowing through 30 rounds with a bump stock. But, that's about it. After one mag, you start seeing dollar signs as you eat through ammo.

Why is it legal? Again, honest answer - legal loophole. "Semi-auto," by law, means one round fires with each pull of the trigger. In this case, it is the rapid pull of the trigger that fires the rounds so quickly. SHOULD it be legal? Well, that's a good question.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

You can do the same thing with you finger on the trigger and your thumb in your belt loop. Probably works less well, but it works.

Nope. A few things you need to consider.

1. A single round can go through more than one person. If it doesn't strike bone, one round could go through 2 or more people.
2. Firing down and some blacktop areas, rounds ricocheted. Some hit people after hitting the ground.
3. Nowhere near 600 people were shot. It appears everyone who was killed was shot. But, the vast majority of those injured were not hit by a round. The vast majority suffered injuries from be trampled and other injuries from trying to get over barriers, etc.
4. People were shoulder-to-shoulder. Until they scattered, almost certainly, each shot hit at least one person, if not more. Thus, two 30-round magazines could have easily hit and killed 58 people.

I don't know how many mags he had, but 30 would be heavy, but easy to put in a bag and bring into a hotel.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I can really only see two uses for something like that: It's fun to play with at the range, and something like the Las Vegas shooting.

On the one hand, it's awfully hard to justify a gadget that makes range time a little more entertaining when the trade off is giving a nut the capability to do this.

On the other hand, full auto weapons (or approximations thereof haven't been used in many shootings. And people can and have carried out attacks that are just as deadly without firearms at all.

It's a loophole, and I expect it'll be closed. Personally, I won't have much of a problem with that, because there's no real use for it anyway.

The bigger issue, to me, is how we're ultimately going to cope with mass killings, as distinct from mass shootings. We have technology, and we frequently gather in extremely large, extremely vulnerable groups. I don't see an easy solution that fits our society.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Before the great flood of '09, I had two - one for a 9mm carbine and one for an AR. On the 9mm carbine, it is flawless. It might as well be full auto. Fairly easy to control. Consistent. Smooth. Easy.

On an AR chambered in 5.56, to me, it is more difficult than an M16 on full auto (which is difficult). When you shoulder an AR, you push it back into your shoulder to get a good placement. It is locked back into your shoulder. When you use a bump-fire stock, you have to push the AR forward to engage it. So, it is an awkward movement. You are simultaneously pushing forward and back. This causes the AR to be unstable, even more so than a full auto M16. Now, if you mount it on a bipod, it definitely will be more stable.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

There have been three (3) instances of crimes committed with legally obtained fully automatic rifles since 1934.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Yep. This guy made his own bump fire device for a Glock:

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

FWIW, this is a bump fire vs the guy who is the fastest shooter in the world. The older guy has a "standard" semi-auto AR. The younger guy has a bump fire AR.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

welcome to life in europe. i think we've done a pretty good job, as a society, of absorbing and mainstreaming immigrant populations (versus europe), and i'm guardedly optimistic this helps inoculate us against what europe experiences. we also, for our racial problems, don't have too many dylann roofs. but home-grown malcontents? like this guy? and tim mcvey? no good way to see this coming.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

the old guy has quite a finger. he must be a popular guy in the hay. i don't think i'd want to be near the receiving end of either shooter.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I had to google what a bump stock is. Landed on this page:

https://www.thetrace.org/2015/11/ar-15-bump-fire-legal/


First sentence: "For some gun enthusiasts, it’s a vision of American paradise."

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“Read the transcript.”

Exactly.

These kinds of killings are less and less a gun issue, imo. Every time someone drives a truck through a crowd of people or sets off a homemade bomb at a concert, the less significance the gun has, and the more likely it is some copycat will choose an alternative means to carry out mass violence.

I don't know how Vegas (or anywhere else) will or should respond to something like this. Someone mentioned metal detectors at hotels, which is simply not possible. Even if it was, and even if they were effective, what does that kind of security mean for a destination like Las Vegas? How many people are going to travel to Sin City to endure the kind of security we have to deal with from the TSA city wide? At the same time, at what point does it become too much of a risk to attend major public events?

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

You're assuming they are all gunshot wounds and not injuries from being trampled etc.

You're assuming they are all gunshot wounds and not injuries from being trampled etc. //

Well certainly some of them are, I really don't know how many. Do you? Have they made any announcements as to the types of injuries? Of course a bunch have to be trampling, maybe heart attacks, but a lot would be bullet wounds too. Anyway I was just wondering how many rounds he actually shot, guess we will know that answer pretty definitely in the next week or so.

It's a bit like shark attacks.

In the water, it's the water itself that's probably going to kill you. Shark attacks are rarer than winning the lottery, but makes international news every time.

Bombs and gunmen kill people in first world countries, but drunk/distracted driving is far more likely to kill you.

Self driving cars can't come soon enough. If we really want to save lives that is.

Bump fire "works" in that it puts a lot of rounds down range rather quickly but the weapon moves around A LOT and there's no good way to stabilize it because in order to function the weapon needs to move. Again, to my ear, the cyclic rate is too low for bump fire or a conventional full auto weapon. It sounds like a crank trigger.

I'm more inclined to say it's a crank trigger. The cyclic rate to my ear is too low.

Sure! What could possibly go wrong?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Just wondering if you could comment on how a full auto ban may have prevented this...given that we know next-to-nothing about the weapons used and that what happened in France where MANY more people were killed and both semi-autos and full-autos have been banned for longer than the Brownlee brothers have been alive?

Emotions are high right now. Data, however, is irrefutable.

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My training

data is irrefutable, you're right. if there is data, and i don't think you've provided any. many more people were killed on 9/11 and no guns were used at all, but i don't think that constitutes data.

i have no expertise in this, so when you're asking me to comment on the lethality of this, i'm not the voice of authority. just, can i answer your question with a question? this guy seemed pretty knowledgeable and experienced in firearms. he appears to have owned about 30 long guns. if you're saying this guy is just as deadly with a semi-auto as an auto, he appears to have had 29 other long guns in his arsenal. why didn't he use one of those? why did he choose the one weapon that had a bump stock? what is it you know that he doesn't know about the actual versus theoretical lethality of his attack?

this is my one and only post to you on this, because i don't want to get into the typical LR circle jerk with you; i don't know enough to speak with any authority; and i'm ambivalent about the legal issues surrounding gun ownership. i will leave that to you, because it's your responsibility now. your side won. so you guys get to set the rules now. you decide what should be legal. but because you are a stickler for data, 89 people were killed at the bataclan in shooting episode lasting, to my recollection, about 45min, with 3 gunmen doing the shooting. las vegas lasted 10 to 15 minutes, 59 dead (so far), 1 gunman. my guess is that the victims, and the intended victims who escaped, and the injured, would have been happier with a lower rate of fire. but i don't know. you'd have to ask them.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Answering a question with a question is always the sign of a weak argument...but I'll answer yours even though you did not mine.

Dan Empfield Question: "Why didn't he use one of those? [semi auto rifle]"
Random internet dude answer: We don't know. We don't know $hit yet. Preliminary indications from LEOS show that he probably used an illegally modified semi-auto (yes using a bumpfire stock to murder folks makes it an illegally modified semi-auto) rifle. Espousing an argument for gun-control or a ban on title 2 weapons doesn't make any sense yet. Policy should be based on data not emotions. If it turns out that this evil fucker used a legal full-auto weapon then we should DEFINITELY explore further restrictions. Preliminary indications show that...just like the bataclan (France)...criminals don't give a shit about gun laws and will do whatever they want whenever they want. Historical data suggests that stricter gun laws don't do shit and only infringe on the rights of legal firearm owners. Do you need more examples...perhaps a local one (San Bernadino?).

Question for you (if I'm allowed another one): If the weapon wasn't a legally owned full-auto...should we relax the full-auto weapons laws because they're clearly working and too strict? Less folks have been killed in the US from title 2 weapons than in France over the past [Brownlee era] years. If data drives our policies...you should agree.

So there's my one and only permissible response to your question.

Who cares though. Why waste a good crisis?

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My training

but because you are a stickler for data, 89 people were killed at the bataclan in shooting episode lasting, to my recollection, about 45min, with 3 gunmen doing the shooting. las vegas lasted 10 to 15 minutes, 59 dead (so far), 1 gunman. my guess is that the victims, and the intended victims who escaped, and the injured, would have been happier with a lower rate of fire.

If I recall correctly, the Paris shooters were armed with full auto AK47s. (And bombs.) The rate of fire of the weapons was not the difference.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

whoa there....don't let data get in the way here. Clearly....guns are the problem. Let's not let the fact that France has stricter gun laws than ANY state in the union get in the way of a good gun-control argument.

If France had stricter gun control laws then CLEARLY nobody would have died. CLEARLY.

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My training