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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
...They're not "paper thin". They are actually quite durable for the thickness. You just aren't going to be hanging your bike from the ceiling on rim hooks with them :-/ If you think about it in the context of what wheel parameters really are important to performance, "mixed material" rims are really an overall better solution than single material rims (be it all-carbon or all-aluminum) from an overall performance/system standpoint. Besides, wheel weight is largely over-valued as a wheel performance parameter by most riders.

Out of curiosity, have you any experience with Swiss Side Hadrons and if so, can you confirm if the carbon fairing is similar construction? I'd imagine it is. The Swiss Side fairings are plenty strong enough for the job they're there to do. They're not structural so why add material? They are strong enough not to be easily damaged with normal storage and transport of the bike.

Nope. I have no experience with the Swiss Sides.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
I actually use and recommend Velox. And for the exact reasons listed. I do think tubeless tape - like Silca or Stan's - works very well with latex tubes. But I absolutely agree that plastic rim strips can in fact cut a latex tube. I am not a fan of rim strips with latex tubes. If you use butyl - which most people do - they are fine. I've never had an issue with a rim strip and butyl tube. But I have with latex.

I know plenty of folks who use latex that use tubeless tape and are happy. Tom A. and Josh among them. But me, I'm a Velox guy. The cotton just provides a very nice, plush environment for a latex tube, especially if you use the wide strips (22mm? 24mm?), which I do.


I think the lack of differential in terms tape, strips etc is causing some confusion. I also do not like rim strips - whether plastic or cotton. I am defining a rim strip as one circular continuous piece of material that you put on the rim and snap over and into place. I use tape either Silca or Stan's.

Agreed. Tape only.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
BTW, one of the best arguments for using tubeless tape in a rim that is tubeless-ready, whether running a tubeless setup or tubed, is that it makes switching from one type of setup to another on a particular wheel a "no-brainer". You've got a tubed setup on the wheel and want to put on a tubeless? Just pop a tubeless valve on there and go. The flexibility in doing either easily is a big plus in my book.

Bingo. This is my main reason to use Silca tubeless (or stans) tape. It works awesome for both applications - why not cover your bases with one product.

_______________________________________________
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Bonesbrigade] [ In reply to ]
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Bonesbrigade wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
BTW, one of the best arguments for using tubeless tape in a rim that is tubeless-ready, whether running a tubeless setup or tubed, is that it makes switching from one type of setup to another on a particular wheel a "no-brainer". You've got a tubed setup on the wheel and want to put on a tubeless? Just pop a tubeless valve on there and go. The flexibility in doing either easily is a big plus in my book.


Bingo. This is my main reason to use Silca tubeless (or stans) tape. It works awesome for both applications - why not cover your bases with one product.

I've been curious...I see some comments indicating that people run latex tubes on a tubeless ready wheel, with a tubeless ready tire. I keep meaning to ask, "Why?" I assume there must be "some" benefit to the latex tubed setup...
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Mainly ease of switching - it's much easier to deal with changing tires for different purposes with a latex tube compared to tubeless - but it's nice to have the option to run tubeless with the rim tape installed and ready to go (just have to install tubeless valve).

_______________________________________________
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Tom_hampton wrote:
Bonesbrigade wrote:
Tom A. wrote:
BTW, one of the best arguments for using tubeless tape in a rim that is tubeless-ready, whether running a tubeless setup or tubed, is that it makes switching from one type of setup to another on a particular wheel a "no-brainer". You've got a tubed setup on the wheel and want to put on a tubeless? Just pop a tubeless valve on there and go. The flexibility in doing either easily is a big plus in my book.


Bingo. This is my main reason to use Silca tubeless (or stans) tape. It works awesome for both applications - why not cover your bases with one product.


I've been curious...I see some comments indicating that people run latex tubes on a tubeless ready wheel, with a tubeless ready tire. I keep meaning to ask, "Why?" I assume there must be "some" benefit to the latex tubed setup...

The reality is that for the average person putting a tube in still is a simpler process. With tubeless we are getting there but just no there yet for the common person.


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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [jmjtri] [ In reply to ]
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jmjtri wrote:
nd I'm arguing over 400g, not 20g.

This is a classic example just like saving money. The reality is adding pennies up adds up to substantial savings but most people don't look at it this way. In your case you state the 400g wheelbuilder cover I assume. There are carbon covers (RIP Catalyst Cycling) that brings that down to 160grams. The difference in 160 grams versus a 1600 gram wheelset is a 10% weight savings.

The difference in savings 20g over 40g in rim tape is a savings of 50%. 20 grams is 20 grams benefit. If my views change, it is over time and it is after new information/experiences come to light. While I have been known to be hyperbolic at times the reality is that people spend a lot of money to save 20 grams on a frame. Saving 20 grams is a positive in my eyes. If I can save that here and there that might add up to a lb. I'll take that on a hilly course.


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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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I mean, sure. If you're trying to build a 13lb climbing bike then feel free to nit pick every single thing on the bike. Carbon bar end caps, carbon spaces, carbon stems and bars. The lightest grease, bar tape, computer. Titanium bolts all around. the lightest skewers (that require a special tool to put on and remove. Saving 400 grams with one purchase is much different that minding every 20g you have on your bike. At the end of the day, 99% of people on this forum don't do DL and only care about riding in a straight line on the flattest courses. (because most triathletes are soft;)) No one here is flogging out 7 watts per kilo on an HC climb that's 40k long in itself. 20g really doesn't matter.

I always found it it funny how people fret about the smallest amount of weight on their bike but not even think about how much their kit, nutrition, sunglasses, helmet. shoes, etc. weight. The heaviest thing on your bike will (almost) always be your bottles. Wanna drop weight? Lose the bottles. Entry level road bikes with no bottles weigh less than the ones in the pro peloton with bottles. (Yes I understand that that rank was a huge digression, but it felt good to type)
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.

I was doing squares so 25mm by 25mm or so. Ultimately I decided two wraps and forgot the 2grams.


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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thomas,

Could you explain how you use the Stan's tape in a bit more detail? I currently use plugs or nothing in my rims with latex tubes. But my tubes always look like the photo on page 1 (does this happen with the Stan's tape?). And of late I've had a few flats - probably from hasty installation, but not sure. Thus, next time I need to change tires I'm going to install the Stan's tubeless tape. And not being mechanically inclined, I could use some help with technique. Are you recommending two wraps? And I assume the tape you use is the 21mm version, correct?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.


I was doing squares so 25mm by 25mm or so. Ultimately I decided two wraps and forgot the 2grams.
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [wacomme] [ In reply to ]
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wacomme wrote:
Thomas,

Could you explain how you use the Stan's tape in a bit more detail? I currently use plugs or nothing in my rims with latex tubes. But my tubes always look like the photo on page 1 (does this happen with the Stan's tape?). And of late I've had a few flats - probably from hasty installation, but not sure. Thus, next time I need to change tires I'm going to install the Stan's tubeless tape. And not being mechanically inclined, I could use some help with technique. Are you recommending two wraps? And I assume the tape you use is the 21mm version, correct?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.


I was doing squares so 25mm by 25mm or so. Ultimately I decided two wraps and forgot the 2grams.

Tape size depends on what rims you are using and the internal diameter of those rims - 21mm is fine for many rims. Some of the wider rims, HED, Roval work better with the 25mm. Two wraps around is what I suggest.


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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Is the wrinkled look to the latex tube (removed after use) due to not using rim tape?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
wacomme wrote:
Thomas,

Could you explain how you use the Stan's tape in a bit more detail? I currently use plugs or nothing in my rims with latex tubes. But my tubes always look like the photo on page 1 (does this happen with the Stan's tape?). And of late I've had a few flats - probably from hasty installation, but not sure. Thus, next time I need to change tires I'm going to install the Stan's tubeless tape. And not being mechanically inclined, I could use some help with technique. Are you recommending two wraps? And I assume the tape you use is the 21mm version, correct?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.


I was doing squares so 25mm by 25mm or so. Ultimately I decided two wraps and forgot the 2grams.


Tape size depends on what rims you are using and the internal diameter of those rims - 21mm is fine for many rims. Some of the wider rims, HED, Roval work better with the 25mm. Two wraps around is what I suggest.
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [wacomme] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wacomme wrote:
Is the wrinkled look to the latex tube (removed after use) due to not using rim tape?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
wacomme wrote:
Thomas,

Could you explain how you use the Stan's tape in a bit more detail? I currently use plugs or nothing in my rims with latex tubes. But my tubes always look like the photo on page 1 (does this happen with the Stan's tape?). And of late I've had a few flats - probably from hasty installation, but not sure. Thus, next time I need to change tires I'm going to install the Stan's tubeless tape. And not being mechanically inclined, I could use some help with technique. Are you recommending two wraps? And I assume the tape you use is the 21mm version, correct?

Michael
Thomas Gerlach wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
I was going to text you this but maybe it will be useful to someone else:

You do small "strips" over the spoke holes and then one wrap of the Silca tape, correct? I just got mine in the mail. How much overlap on that one wrap? 3-4"? Overlap at the valve hole?

FWIW I strongly share your view on cumulative marginal gains. It's worked for me thus far on the aero side and now I'm slowly working on the weight side. Between pulling the HED logos off my wheels and reworking my flat kit I lost 2lbs last night... I was practically carrying a workshop in my draft box.


I was doing squares so 25mm by 25mm or so. Ultimately I decided two wraps and forgot the 2grams.


Tape size depends on what rims you are using and the internal diameter of those rims - 21mm is fine for many rims. Some of the wider rims, HED, Roval work better with the 25mm. Two wraps around is what I suggest.

I am not sure, I believe JoshP commented on this a long time ago but I don't have the link to it.. I have had tubes that end up wrinkled as well after swapping out tires from being worn out but that isn't what I am talking about in terms of tubes getting wrecked. Tubes fail because latex is sneaky and can find its way into places that butyl can't. This can be problem when it sneaks out of the tire, or underneath the rim tape causing rapid blowouts of the tube. I have never had a flat tire or issue with a wrinkled tube like that, but I do replace the tubes usually at the very least at the start of new season just for the sake of peace of mind.


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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [JustTooFarr] [ In reply to ]
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You people are doing your typical "dumb shit" thing again..
Why do you want to run off someone like Thomas Gerlach who is very knowledgeable?
You don't know shit and you think that you "know it all"?
You're doing nothing but hurting yourself if you are interested in using this forum for professional information.
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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The wrinkled bits are a combination of the latex stretching to fit into the little negative space under the bead, made permanent by exposure to brake heat. In most setups you will have 2 rows of this wrinkled area, and as your rim tape moves side to side you may see the wrinkles move similarly.

The ideal latex setup has a high quality rim tape running the full width of the rim to that it runs under the tire bead, and if the sides of the tire well are deep enough, you ideally want the tape to go up the side a bit to give you added protection in that interior corner under the bead.

It's amazing how effective even a thin rim tape is at knocking down the surface temperatures inside of the system. Remember, Latex has a max temperature rating of around 240-260F depending on formulation and lightweight rims can easily heat soak into the mid 300's at the brake track during serious descending and can briefly hit the high 200's with a single panic stop from high speed on flat ground.

Tubeless tape has a few key advantages here:
1. It is thinner than traditional tapes so that it makes tire installation easier = you're less likely to pinch the tube
2. It's smooth which is important in allowing the latest tube to be moved into position without any stickiness that can cause a pinch during install
3. It comes in widths so that you can buy it wide enough for your rim, and it's flexible enough that it can be run slightly wider than normal for added protection, i.e. I have 303's which came with 19mm plastic rim tape which I've replaced with 21mm tubeless tape that runs the full width of the tire well and comes up the side of the bead about 1mm. With Vittoria Corsa G+ there is no latex-carbon contact with this setup and pulling the tubes out after months of use shows ever so slight deformation in the tube from expanding into the little corner at the bottom of the bead, but none of the heat-damage wrinkling.
4. It is wrapped on in layers, so you get a slight added insulating effect of having numerous layers and interfaces which makes for less efficient heat transfer than you get from a single ply of plastic, and also you can tune it to your conditions. I run 2 layers of SILCA Platinum in all my wheels, but know some heavier guys who live in places hillier than Indiana and they will run 3-4 plies depending on the tire/rim combination.

The best way to think of it is that the rim tape is a form of insulation that's essentially buying you time under heavy braking. In the Ultimate Failure testing model we built at Zipp and have shared with the industry, the wheel is driven at over 1000 watts against the brake pads and the goal is to last a certain amount of time to prove the system is safe. It is common to see butyl tubes with plastic rim tape fail at 3-4 minutes and latex tubes fail at around 2-3 minutes with standard rim tapes...getting the proper width of tubeless tape at 2 plies can extend the life of the latex to more like 3-3:30 and then each additional ply of rim tape can add another 20-30 seconds. So latex with 3 plies of properly sized tubeless tape can last as long as a butyl tube with stock rim tape.

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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Thank You Josh for a great explanation ....
Now you freakin idiots can be thankful for the free professional advice from Josh and Thomas ...and Tom ...
Be thankful and don't run them off...you douchebags
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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joshatsilca wrote:
The wrinkled bits are a combination of the latex stretching to fit into the little negative space under the bead, made permanent by exposure to brake heat. In most setups you will have 2 rows of this wrinkled area, and as your rim tape moves side to side you may see the wrinkles move similarly.

The ideal latex setup has a high quality rim tape running the full width of the rim to that it runs under the tire bead, and if the sides of the tire well are deep enough, you ideally want the tape to go up the side a bit to give you added protection in that interior corner under the bead.

It's amazing how effective even a thin rim tape is at knocking down the surface temperatures inside of the system. Remember, Latex has a max temperature rating of around 240-260F depending on formulation and lightweight rims can easily heat soak into the mid 300's at the brake track during serious descending and can briefly hit the high 200's with a single panic stop from high speed on flat ground.

Tubeless tape has a few key advantages here:
1. It is thinner than traditional tapes so that it makes tire installation easier = you're less likely to pinch the tube
2. It's smooth which is important in allowing the latest tube to be moved into position without any stickiness that can cause a pinch during install
3. It comes in widths so that you can buy it wide enough for your rim, and it's flexible enough that it can be run slightly wider than normal for added protection, i.e. I have 303's which came with 19mm plastic rim tape which I've replaced with 21mm tubeless tape that runs the full width of the tire well and comes up the side of the bead about 1mm. With Vittoria Corsa G+ there is no latex-carbon contact with this setup and pulling the tubes out after months of use shows ever so slight deformation in the tube from expanding into the little corner at the bottom of the bead, but none of the heat-damage wrinkling.
4. It is wrapped on in layers, so you get a slight added insulating effect of having numerous layers and interfaces which makes for less efficient heat transfer than you get from a single ply of plastic, and also you can tune it to your conditions. I run 2 layers of SILCA Platinum in all my wheels, but know some heavier guys who live in places hillier than Indiana and they will run 3-4 plies depending on the tire/rim combination.

The best way to think of it is that the rim tape is a form of insulation that's essentially buying you time under heavy braking. In the Ultimate Failure testing model we built at Zipp and have shared with the industry, the wheel is driven at over 1000 watts against the brake pads and the goal is to last a certain amount of time to prove the system is safe. It is common to see butyl tubes with plastic rim tape fail at 3-4 minutes and latex tubes fail at around 2-3 minutes with standard rim tapes...getting the proper width of tubeless tape at 2 plies can extend the life of the latex to more like 3-3:30 and then each additional ply of rim tape can add another 20-30 seconds. So latex with 3 plies of properly sized tubeless tape can last as long as a butyl tube with stock rim tape.


Interesting little tidbit that frankly I never really thought about it - thanks for sharing!!! As someone who worked on the business presentation side of some very geeky engineers of aerogel back at University of Wisconsin I should have thought about that. We were working on creating cleaer aerogel (as opposed to translucent) for windows that would be 1000x as insulative as regular windows, and of course the main property that made the possible was the thousands of folds in aerogel trapping air all over the place.


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Last edited by: Thomas Gerlach: Jul 6, 17 20:33
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [JustTooFarr] [ In reply to ]
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Bumping this up. What size Stan's tape would I need for a HED Jet 6 plus and HED Disc? 21mm or 25mm?
Last edited by: ffmedic84: Jul 31, 17 13:32
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [joshatsilca] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the detailed explanation! I was about to buy some latex tubes, and noticed this warning on Competitive Cyclists page. Were you talking about carbon clinchers in your reply?

"Despite the removable valve cores, we strongly recommend against using latex tubes with carbon clincher wheels—a sentiment shared by most major wheel, tube, and tire manufacturers. Since the carbon braking surface heats up more than alloy, it can cause latex tubes to burst and fail. If you're running carbon clinchers, go with butyl tubes."

I use my TT bike to do a lot of climbing, so end up doing a lot of braking while descending. Am I better off using the latex tubes only for flatter events/routes, or should I be okay if using enough rim tape? (Not looking for any guarantees here, just wanting to hear from those with experience with this.)
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [brbbiking] [ In reply to ]
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brbbiking wrote:
Thanks for the detailed explanation! I was about to buy some latex tubes, and noticed this warning on Competitive Cyclists page. Were you talking about carbon clinchers in your reply?

"Despite the removable valve cores, we strongly recommend against using latex tubes with carbon clincher wheels—a sentiment shared by most major wheel, tube, and tire manufacturers. Since the carbon braking surface heats up more than alloy, it can cause latex tubes to burst and fail. If you're running carbon clinchers, go with butyl tubes."

I use my TT bike to do a lot of climbing, so end up doing a lot of braking while descending. Am I better off using the latex tubes only for flatter events/routes, or should I be okay if using enough rim tape? (Not looking for any guarantees here, just wanting to hear from those with experience with this.)


I have been using latex tubes in my carbon clinchers for years without any issue. Granted I have never had to do any hard braking with them, but even when I needed to come to a stop from a high speed I am careful to modulate my braking effort.

I would consider switching to butyl for some particular race where I know there are going to be hard turns coming off steep downhills or something like that but otherwise, I don't see the need.
Last edited by: noofus: Aug 3, 17 6:23
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the tips. Installed Latex today with Silca tape, Vittoria tubes, and orange sealant. Used baby powder and zipp valve extenders for my 72mm Reynolds Aero wheels. You tube videos helped as well.

http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [timr] [ In reply to ]
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I was about to place the order on latex tube on CRC to give it a go, and realised there is this Contintental super light weight butyl tube at just 50gram. any advise if this light weight butyl tube is comparable with latex?
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [snoopy123] [ In reply to ]
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Latex is latex, butyl is just not the same.
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Re: Latex tubes for dummies [snoopy123] [ In reply to ]
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simple answer - NO
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