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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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 >I'd really like to hear what someone in EE sees as the major design flaws (or is it merely conceptual?).


OK, I'll pick just one thing.

These panels are going to need electrical connectors to plug into each other. These connectors are, naturally, going to need to be waterproof and have the ability to survive the vibration of traffic and the movement of the earth. That means they'll have to be compliant connectors. They're going to have to survive what happens when, say, water gets between the tiles, the heater fails for some reason, the the water freezes, expanding the space between all the tiles. And they're going to have to survive that for the expected ~20 year lifespan. We're talking about what's effectively a mil-spec connector.

Something like the below. And you don't want to know what that connector costs. It blows up the cost model by itself. Electronics just don't belong on the ground, being pounded by vehicles, and submerged in water and subject to the immense pressures of a moving earth. They just don't.

Roughly speaking, making a working prototype might cost, say $100/tile (just making that up).. Making it to commercial grade (rooftop-grade) probably costs $200/tile. Making it industrial grade $500/tile. Making something "mil-spec" is likely on the order of $1000/tile. A full order of magnitude. And I honestly think that's the kind of engineering that would be required for these things to survive 20 years on the ground, being pounded.

When they say it's only 50% more expensive, I suspect they're quoting the $100 price. And I have no doubt they could create a really slick, functional testbed road. But I'd predict it'd all go to shit in a big hurry once scaled to practical application.





Last edited by: trail: May 26, 14 8:59
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I also thought it was a good con job, without any background in engineering. My wife got all pissy at me saying I used to be optimistic. But as P.T. Barnum used to say...
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Brownie28 wrote:
These panels couldn't be designed to be orthogonal?


Trail was referring to the the fact that panels and roads are optimized for completely different criteria, not their shape. Thus, there is little cost synergy in combining them.

Panels:
Site and orient for maximum sun exposure.
Design, site, and maintain to minimize accumulation of dirt/snow/sand/mud/etc.
Minimize photoelectric performance degradation over predicted lifetime.
Maximize photoelectric efficiency.
Install near electrical load to minimize transmission losses.

Roads:
Site where needed to transport goods/people. Orient flat.
Design to provide traction and consistent surface for vehicles.
Design to sustain repeated mechanical stress/strain from traffic and environment.
Minimize reflected glare for drivers.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: May 26, 14 11:50
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what I like more, the roadways themselves or the video. Unfortunately, just like the metric system, this is only of those worthwhile ideas that just won't ever get implemented in the US

Matt
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, reflective glare, good call. All good points, it does sound more and more idealistic and unrealistic the more I think and read about it. That said, applications in small scales does still seem workable IMO, and maybe over time things can be optimized and retooled for the less-ideal but still profitable locations.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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This certainly isn't viable in its present state, on a massive scale...but that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. Two thoughts I have: these aren't viable on big-city roads. Huge, huge traffic volume, so breakdown and repair would likely prove costly. And the solar benefit is essentially nil when there's no, you know, sun. Also, diversification in panels seems like a no-brainer to me. In the south you don't need heated panels. And 75% of panels really don't need the LED system; on your average road what's the benefit of having costly LED lighting when all you need is a strip in the middle?

Asphalt is made of rock and oil. It comes out of a truck and is laid down in motion and entire width of a lane at a time. Preperation for the road bed is done in mass and it can be laid on a compacted surface. Concrete is a more expensive, but lasts longer. This road would require not only a concrete underpayment but also manual instalation of each panel. The raw material is glass and electronic circuit boards. I did not read the article but the idea that the cost is only 50% more I would have to say is a pipe dream low end ball park figure. You're in essence manually installing prea ssembled, expensively made circuit boards versus laying down cheap, rock and agragate that takes almost no pre preparation by comparison.

The "Benefits" would be "Energy". The other benefits, lines, graphics etc etc don't come anywhere near the cost to design and build them into the product. Now we also all know that the dirtier a panel is the less effecient it is...you're driving on it it WILL get dirty. WE also know that circuit panels are not all that "Tough", you're driving on it, it will get broken.

This may be "Worth exploring" for someplace like Disney world or corporate show off headquarters parking lot but it will not be economical any time in the future. Look at the glass alone. Making the glass forms for each panel will be more expensive then the equivalent area of asphalt and by far. Then if the glass snaps and the panel goes bye bye? We call that a pot hole today and you drive by with a truck and fill it with asphalt and drive away. You'd have to replace the entire panel which A) would take longer then the asphalt patch and B) will be WAY more expensive then a couple shovels full of asphalt.

It's a "Neat" idea but not a practical one at all.

~Matt



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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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Ever see info on the Kowloon walled city? Check these out... No thanks, I need my space.

http://www.popsci.com/...ce-earth-infographic

Google the images of it if you really want to get blown away...
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [jamma] [ In reply to ]
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You completely missed my point. It is this kind of extremist thinking that continues to propel our country towards certain downfall.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I stumbled across this today and thought it was a fitting epilogue to this old thread:

http://interestingengineering.com/...engineering-failure/


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
I stumbled across this today and thought it was a fitting epilogue to this old thread:

http://interestingengineering.com/...engineering-failure/

Ha, that's awesome...I was all in from the first video, shows what the hell I know.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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Yes! And trains that go places quickly. Like in Europe. Europe is the best. I said that part just to get a reaction but I do like the trains.





DrTriKat wrote:
Incredibly stupid idea. Instead of contemplating how many more trillions and billions of dollars we should spend propping up our unsustainable automobile centric suburban sprawl-hell why don't we start building higher density, walkable neighborhoods with less asphalt surfaces to maintain, and negating the need to drive everywhere constantly. It also makes economical sense. Some parts of the world have been doing it for thousands of years. Then we can put solar panels on the roofs where they belong, and easily generate all the electricity we need.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse to never have tried to succeed. -T. Roosevelt

Gnothi Seauton.
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