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Solar Freaking Roadways!!!
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So someone posted this in one of the climate change threads, then I stumbled across it on FB and finally watched the video (mildly entertaining); this link is their contribution page with some basic info along with the video that's starting to make it around:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/solar-roadways

Thoughts? Lots of engineers on these boards, does this pass the engineering sniff test? I love the idea in theory, I do worry though that it'd be a MASSIVE undertaking spanning decades and would be fraught with billions in waste...but then again if we're sitting here in 30 years (hopefully not on this board, that'd just be sad) with solar roadways that are powering the country and providing all kinds of other benefits I'd be a happy camper.

No AGW talk in this thread please...stick to the technology and the funding and the viability if at all possible.

SOLAR FREAKING ROADWAYS!
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Let's start with this...

How much do these panels cost?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Oh ye of little faith.

Obviously that's a massive question, but if these really are a net producer on a big scale (MASSIVE if) then the upfront cost seems like something that can be worked out. We're talking trillions over time I'm sure, but in tiny chunks to start--a parking lot, a driveway, a small road, a small town, etc--that can be sorted out and seems like it's even something that can generate outside investors through advertising and whatnot.
Last edited by: Brownie28: May 25, 14 18:15
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Well, then...if the economics of it workout I guess we let the economics of it workout.

Supply and demand has sucked a hell of a lot of oil out of the earth and some of that shit is hard to get.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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If you ask Rob Ford he'll tell you that private corporations will pay for this kind of thing...

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I find the idea intriguing, also. My biggest concern, though, is the materials involved in large scale manufacture of these things. Will they require rare earths or similar materials that might be difficult to procure in such vast quantities? And does their manufacture involve the toxic nastiness of so many electronic items?

-----
Over 4.5 years bike crash free.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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That is a pretty cool idea. I could see it more in a parking lot, or walkways or something where it would contribute to individual buildings power needs, but I think the problems, and costs, associated with paving roads and highways with this stuff would just be insane on the larger scale. It looks like you would have to not only tear up the original roads, but excavate deeper to allow for those long continuous trenches for all the electronics and water.

I wonder what the expected lifespan of those tiles are under normal use?

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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And if you tie enough bottle rockets together you can launch something to the moon.

What would you guess is easier to engineer? Solar powered roofs or solar powered roads? When we run out of space on roofs for the things, maybe then we ought to start worrying about building roads out of them.

________
It doesn't really matter what Phil is saying, the music of his voice is the appropriate soundtrack for a bicycle race. HTupolev
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Roads get beat to hell and back again. That's my biggest concern. It's one thing if the roi for pure installation is good, another kettle of fish if we realize 3 years down the road (wah wah wah waaaaaah) that our 20 year panels be dying and fast...

Sniff test equals cool idea. I'll get excited when a test section works well for a good while.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Incredibly stupid idea. Instead of contemplating how many more trillions and billions of dollars we should spend propping up our unsustainable automobile centric suburban sprawl-hell why don't we start building higher density, walkable neighborhoods with less asphalt surfaces to maintain, and negating the need to drive everywhere constantly. It also makes economical sense. Some parts of the world have been doing it for thousands of years. Then we can put solar panels on the roofs where they belong, and easily generate all the electricity we need.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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My thought was driveways and possibly corporate sidewalks and patios. I'd be shocked if this got to full scale roadways. Our roads here in PA just got beat to hell this past winter with the constant cold/warm shifting that we had.


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…..but then again if we're sitting here in 30 years (hopefully not on this board, that'd just be sad)

I'm coming up on 9 years already! { =..^..(…..

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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There wouldn't be the same damage due to the road being heated. Heated sidewalks and driveways in ski area towns last much longer than non heated surfaces.

I have concerns about having the materials to make sufficient amounts of the product. In my medium sized city there are over 4000 miles of public roads. Then there are all the parking lots, driveways, and sidewalks. That's a huge amount of materials to retrofit everything. Solar cells, heating elements, microprocessors, glass, etc., in every panel would require huge amounts of material.

And then how long does it take to recoup the cost via the energy generated?

BarryP wrote:
My thought was driveways and possibly corporate sidewalks and patios. I'd be shocked if this got to full scale roadways. Our roads here in PA just got beat to hell this past winter with the constant cold/warm shifting that we had.


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…..but then again if we're sitting here in 30 years (hopefully not on this board, that'd just be sad)

I'm coming up on 9 years already! { =..^..(…..

Don

Tri-ing to have fun. Anything else is just a bonus!
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Our roads are covered with snow for half the year.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [xraycharlie] [ In reply to ]
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xraycharlie wrote:
I find the idea intriguing, also. My biggest concern, though, is the materials involved in large scale manufacture of these things. Will they require rare earths or similar materials that might be difficult to procure in such vast quantities? And does their manufacture involve the toxic nastiness of so many electronic items?

Nothing to see here... Look! a squirrel...



Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
Our roads are covered with snow for half the year.

Shhh... Don't ruin the fantasy.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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haha this is hilarious
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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It did make me think about how intensely hot pavement gets during the summer. There has to be a fair amount of stored energy associated with that. However, as others have said, what is the cost per square foot/mile versus traditional building materials and then what is the durability versus traditional building materials? Once you have those two answers, we can start weighting the costs against the benefits. I must say, the concept is very compelling for many reasons, and generating power is not even on the top of the list.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Did a bit of googling, here is a decent article about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/05/20/forget-roofs-are-solar-roads-the-next-big-thing/


50% more expensive than asphault construction, and the infrastructure that would be needed to support it. . . I'm just not sure it's worth it. Honestly, it would probably be a cheaper undertaking for local, state, and federal governments to buy every homeowner a solar panel for their roof.


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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
xraycharlie wrote:
I find the idea intriguing, also. My biggest concern, though, is the materials involved in large scale manufacture of these things. Will they require rare earths or similar materials that might be difficult to procure in such vast quantities? And does their manufacture involve the toxic nastiness of so many electronic items?

Nothing to see here... Look! a squirrel...


I feel better about it now.

-----
Over 4.5 years bike crash free.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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As a true road -- no way.
As an oddball, occasional novelty -- maybe.

Look at the pretty designs we can create with the microprocessors and LEDs! LMFAO.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [ziggie204] [ In reply to ]
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ziggie204 wrote:
Did a bit of googling, here is a decent article about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/05/20/forget-roofs-are-solar-roads-the-next-big-thing/


50% more expensive than asphault construction, and the infrastructure that would be needed to support it. . . I'm just not sure it's worth it. Honestly, it would probably be a cheaper undertaking for local, state, and federal governments to buy every homeowner a solar panel for their roof.


That's a good article, thanks for linking. Here's the Vox article linked in the one you provided:
http://www.vox.com/...ds-with-solar-panels

This certainly isn't viable in its present state, on a massive scale...but that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. Two thoughts I have: these aren't viable on big-city roads. Huge, huge traffic volume, so breakdown and repair would likely prove costly. And the solar benefit is essentially nil when there's no, you know, sun. Also, diversification in panels seems like a no-brainer to me. In the south you don't need heated panels. And 75% of panels really don't need the LED system; on your average road what's the benefit of having costly LED lighting when all you need is a strip in the middle?

Anyway, I hate when people say 'this won't work' (not you, ziggie, just a few others in this thread and comment sections of other articles) and point out a few (legitimate) issues, without giving it a chance. They're starting with a few driveways in their hometown. If that works they'll move on to some parking lots. By then we're talking 2020 and the technology will be better understood, durability and repair can be hashed out, and the entire panel structure can evolve into something that hopefully can be mass-produced for small-scale asphalt replacement projects. I love this idea, I don't think it's a cut-and-dried winner and the solution to all our energy problems. But I do think it can be a big contributor to reducing carbon emissions and slowly reshaping the way our roads and cars function.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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> without giving it a chance

Horrible, horrible idea. It has less than no chance. I thought it was an Onion article at first. Total government waste that it was funded at all. It's a total con job.

Roads and panels have orthogonal requirements. They have basically zero complementary properties. They make zero sense put together. None.

Edit: And my background is electrical engineering and "intelligent transportation." And I love photovoltaics. I have them on my *roof*. For some reason I though this would be more cost-effective than putting them on my *driveway* (facepalm).
Last edited by: trail: May 26, 14 8:07
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
> without giving it a chance

Horrible, horrible idea. It has less than no chance. I thought it was an Onion article at first. Total government waste that it was funded at all. It's a total con job.

Roads and panels have orthogonal requirements. They have basically zero complementary properties. They make zero sense put together. None.

Edit: And my background is electrical engineering and "intelligent transportation." And I love photovoltaics. I have them on my *roof*. For some reason I though this would be more cost-effective than putting them on my *driveway* (facepalm).

These panels couldn't be designed to be orthogonal? Can you cite specifically what errors you see in the construction/idea? I'm not challenging/rebutting you, I'd really like to hear what someone in EE sees as the major design flaws (or is it merely conceptual?).

And for the record if it's workable I think it'd make the most sense on lightly traveled roads and big parking lots--areas that get lots of sun and moderate traffic.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [ziggie204] [ In reply to ]
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ziggie204 wrote:
Did a bit of googling, here is a decent article about it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/innovations/wp/2014/05/20/forget-roofs-are-solar-roads-the-next-big-thing/


50% more expensive than asphault construction, and the infrastructure that would be needed to support it. . . I'm just not sure it's worth it. Honestly, it would probably be a cheaper undertaking for local, state, and federal governments to buy every homeowner a solar panel for their roof.


As someone in the state highways industry, there's not a hope in hell that such a product could come within 50% of the economies of scale associated with conventional road construction.

Perhaps boutique streets in a technology precinct, but there are significantly greater loads experienced on a road than from a simple tractor.

I also think about the friction such a surface could provide to vehicles. You can't have smooth surfaces. Create the necessary coarseness and suddenly it starts accumulating grit etc which could diminish the ability to absorb energy. Those plates looked like they had large dimples. What sort of driving surface would that result in? I would think it would need a rigid foundation otherwise those tiles might start becoming a lumpy hazard. Rigid base in which to house all the goodies would add to the otherwise premium cost.

As stated. I could see it being applied in small scale, show case applications but not for general public use with moderate / high speeds. The former would also be built up environments where shadows are cast over the road for much of the day from buildings, trees etc.

Damn hippies. Next they'll say the earth is round.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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 >I'd really like to hear what someone in EE sees as the major design flaws (or is it merely conceptual?).


OK, I'll pick just one thing.

These panels are going to need electrical connectors to plug into each other. These connectors are, naturally, going to need to be waterproof and have the ability to survive the vibration of traffic and the movement of the earth. That means they'll have to be compliant connectors. They're going to have to survive what happens when, say, water gets between the tiles, the heater fails for some reason, the the water freezes, expanding the space between all the tiles. And they're going to have to survive that for the expected ~20 year lifespan. We're talking about what's effectively a mil-spec connector.

Something like the below. And you don't want to know what that connector costs. It blows up the cost model by itself. Electronics just don't belong on the ground, being pounded by vehicles, and submerged in water and subject to the immense pressures of a moving earth. They just don't.

Roughly speaking, making a working prototype might cost, say $100/tile (just making that up).. Making it to commercial grade (rooftop-grade) probably costs $200/tile. Making it industrial grade $500/tile. Making something "mil-spec" is likely on the order of $1000/tile. A full order of magnitude. And I honestly think that's the kind of engineering that would be required for these things to survive 20 years on the ground, being pounded.

When they say it's only 50% more expensive, I suspect they're quoting the $100 price. And I have no doubt they could create a really slick, functional testbed road. But I'd predict it'd all go to shit in a big hurry once scaled to practical application.





Last edited by: trail: May 26, 14 8:59
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [trail] [ In reply to ]
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I also thought it was a good con job, without any background in engineering. My wife got all pissy at me saying I used to be optimistic. But as P.T. Barnum used to say...
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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Brownie28 wrote:
These panels couldn't be designed to be orthogonal?


Trail was referring to the the fact that panels and roads are optimized for completely different criteria, not their shape. Thus, there is little cost synergy in combining them.

Panels:
Site and orient for maximum sun exposure.
Design, site, and maintain to minimize accumulation of dirt/snow/sand/mud/etc.
Minimize photoelectric performance degradation over predicted lifetime.
Maximize photoelectric efficiency.
Install near electrical load to minimize transmission losses.

Roads:
Site where needed to transport goods/people. Orient flat.
Design to provide traction and consistent surface for vehicles.
Design to sustain repeated mechanical stress/strain from traffic and environment.
Minimize reflected glare for drivers.


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
Last edited by: MOP_Mike: May 26, 14 11:50
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what I like more, the roadways themselves or the video. Unfortunately, just like the metric system, this is only of those worthwhile ideas that just won't ever get implemented in the US

Matt
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, reflective glare, good call. All good points, it does sound more and more idealistic and unrealistic the more I think and read about it. That said, applications in small scales does still seem workable IMO, and maybe over time things can be optimized and retooled for the less-ideal but still profitable locations.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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This certainly isn't viable in its present state, on a massive scale...but that doesn't mean it's not worth exploring. Two thoughts I have: these aren't viable on big-city roads. Huge, huge traffic volume, so breakdown and repair would likely prove costly. And the solar benefit is essentially nil when there's no, you know, sun. Also, diversification in panels seems like a no-brainer to me. In the south you don't need heated panels. And 75% of panels really don't need the LED system; on your average road what's the benefit of having costly LED lighting when all you need is a strip in the middle?

Asphalt is made of rock and oil. It comes out of a truck and is laid down in motion and entire width of a lane at a time. Preperation for the road bed is done in mass and it can be laid on a compacted surface. Concrete is a more expensive, but lasts longer. This road would require not only a concrete underpayment but also manual instalation of each panel. The raw material is glass and electronic circuit boards. I did not read the article but the idea that the cost is only 50% more I would have to say is a pipe dream low end ball park figure. You're in essence manually installing prea ssembled, expensively made circuit boards versus laying down cheap, rock and agragate that takes almost no pre preparation by comparison.

The "Benefits" would be "Energy". The other benefits, lines, graphics etc etc don't come anywhere near the cost to design and build them into the product. Now we also all know that the dirtier a panel is the less effecient it is...you're driving on it it WILL get dirty. WE also know that circuit panels are not all that "Tough", you're driving on it, it will get broken.

This may be "Worth exploring" for someplace like Disney world or corporate show off headquarters parking lot but it will not be economical any time in the future. Look at the glass alone. Making the glass forms for each panel will be more expensive then the equivalent area of asphalt and by far. Then if the glass snaps and the panel goes bye bye? We call that a pot hole today and you drive by with a truck and fill it with asphalt and drive away. You'd have to replace the entire panel which A) would take longer then the asphalt patch and B) will be WAY more expensive then a couple shovels full of asphalt.

It's a "Neat" idea but not a practical one at all.

~Matt



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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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Ever see info on the Kowloon walled city? Check these out... No thanks, I need my space.

http://www.popsci.com/...ce-earth-infographic

Google the images of it if you really want to get blown away...
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [jamma] [ In reply to ]
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You completely missed my point. It is this kind of extremist thinking that continues to propel our country towards certain downfall.

Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [Brownie28] [ In reply to ]
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I stumbled across this today and thought it was a fitting epilogue to this old thread:

http://interestingengineering.com/...engineering-failure/


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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MOP_Mike wrote:
I stumbled across this today and thought it was a fitting epilogue to this old thread:

http://interestingengineering.com/...engineering-failure/

Ha, that's awesome...I was all in from the first video, shows what the hell I know.
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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [DrTriKat] [ In reply to ]
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Yes! And trains that go places quickly. Like in Europe. Europe is the best. I said that part just to get a reaction but I do like the trains.





DrTriKat wrote:
Incredibly stupid idea. Instead of contemplating how many more trillions and billions of dollars we should spend propping up our unsustainable automobile centric suburban sprawl-hell why don't we start building higher density, walkable neighborhoods with less asphalt surfaces to maintain, and negating the need to drive everywhere constantly. It also makes economical sense. Some parts of the world have been doing it for thousands of years. Then we can put solar panels on the roofs where they belong, and easily generate all the electricity we need.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: Solar Freaking Roadways!!! [MOP_Mike] [ In reply to ]
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It is hard to fail, but it is worse to never have tried to succeed. -T. Roosevelt

Gnothi Seauton.
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