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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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I think it has more to do with whether labor and/or organized labor identifies in lock step with a party vs historical. And I think the previous admin with war on coal etc turned labor off more to D than previous admins

But a "war on coal" isn't a war on labor. Circle all the way back to the OP, there just aren't that many coal jobs out there.


I get that it might be perceived that way, which is what my OP was about. Why is it perceived that way? But there's a difference between being anti-labor and being incorrectly perceived as anti-labor.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Quote:
I think it has more to do with whether labor and/or organized labor identifies in lock step with a party vs historical. And I think the previous admin with war on coal etc turned labor off more to D than previous admins


But a "war on coal" isn't a war on labor. Circle all the way back to the OP, there just aren't that many coal jobs out there.


I get that it might be perceived that way, which is what my OP was about. Why is it perceived that way? But there's a difference between being anti-labor and being incorrectly perceived as anti-labor.



we are talking in the political sense right?


Look, you can be as "right" as you want to be. I employ approx. 100 workers who are members of 5 different unions. And I am telling you your "perception" problem is translating to a vote problem
Last edited by: ironmayb: Mar 4, 17 15:26
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Quote:
I think it has more to do with whether labor and/or organized labor identifies in lock step with a party vs historical. And I think the previous admin with war on coal etc turned labor off more to D than previous admins


But a "war on coal" isn't a war on labor. Circle all the way back to the OP, there just aren't that many coal jobs out there.

When the Obama Administration picked winners and losers, it absolutely was a war on labor. What was his plan when he set out to wipe out those jobs? How did it work out?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Quote:
I think it has more to do with whether labor and/or organized labor identifies in lock step with a party vs historical. And I think the previous admin with war on coal etc turned labor off more to D than previous admins


But a "war on coal" isn't a war on labor. Circle all the way back to the OP, there just aren't that many coal jobs out there.


I get that it might be perceived that way, which is what my OP was about. Why is it perceived that way? But there's a difference between being anti-labor and being incorrectly perceived as anti-labor.


I had a chance to review your post again and it occurs to me I may be misunderstanding what you are saying.

I get that there are not that many coal jobs to make this difference.

But going back to my example: I employ sheet metal workers, pipe fitters, sprinkler fitters, electricians and plumbers. In a state no where near coal country (WI). You do realize they see a war on coal as a war on them as well, right? You do see that they identify with a coal miner way before they identify with me (or you).

Add to that the fact the Hillary didn't even bother you campaign in person once in WI; because (IMO) she believed it was a blue state (because "labor" always votes blue).

WI went red for the first time since Reagan. Coincidence? If that's what the party of labor wants to conclude that's fine with me.
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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You do realize they see a war on coal as a war on them as well, right? You do see that they identify with a coal miner way before they identify with me (or you).

Exactly. Because they see that they are vulnerable in the same way as the coal miners as, or manufacturing workers are, and they see how little the establishment cares.

It amazes me that people have a problem with Trump trying to protect jobs. And it's crazy that they can't seem to see how people get angry when the response to Trump's efforts is, "those jobs just aren't coming back, deal with it."








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:
You do realize they see a war on coal as a war on them as well, right? You do see that they identify with a coal miner way before they identify with me (or you).

Exactly. Because they see that they are vulnerable in the same way as the coal miners as, or manufacturing workers are, and they see how little the establishment cares.

It amazes me that people have a problem with Trump trying to protect jobs. And it's crazy that they can't seem to see how people get angry when the response to Trump's efforts is, "those jobs just aren't coming back, deal with it."

Half the pipe fitters and plumbers at our local were employed for2-3 years building the power plant in our area a decade ago. You can try to explain natural gas vs coal to them if you want. Good luck
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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When the Obama Administration picked winners and losers, it absolutely was a war on labor. What was his plan when he set out to wipe out those jobs? How did it work out?

Only in conservative world can pro labor, pro labor, pro labor, pro labor, oh, lets get rid of these jobs that are damaging the environment that equate to 0.1% of the work force as a "war on labor."

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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You do see that they identify with a coal miner way before they identify with me (or you).

Yes, I get that. THAT answers the OP.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
Quote:
When the Obama Administration picked winners and losers, it absolutely was a war on labor. What was his plan when he set out to wipe out those jobs? How did it work out?


Only in conservative world can pro labor, pro labor, pro labor, pro labor, oh, lets get rid of these jobs that are damaging the environment that equate to 0.1% of the work force as a "war on labor."



If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I said you are grasping at straws.

A pro environmental stance that equates to a loss of 0.1% of the jobs does not equate to a "war on labor." Sorry, that's YOUR party's platform.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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It amazes me that people have a problem with Trump trying to protect jobs.


You've always had a special talent with building straw men. I'm pretty sure no one has a problem with "protecting jobs." Its two fold: a) that its specifically the wrong direction for energy and b) that he's full of shit.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
I said you are grasping at straws.

A pro environmental stance that equates to a loss of 0.1% of the jobs does not equate to a "war on labor." Sorry, that's YOUR party's platform.

YOU are the one who wants to throw away these workers and their families! YOU are the elitist who thinks these hard working people deserve to be ignored and discarded. Must be a hell of a view from the ivory tower of yours.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
BarryP wrote:
I said you are grasping at straws.

A pro environmental stance that equates to a loss of 0.1% of the jobs does not equate to a "war on labor." Sorry, that's YOUR party's platform.


YOU are the one who wants to throw away these workers and their families! YOU are the elitist who thinks these hard working people deserve to be ignored and discarded. Must be a hell of a view from the ivory tower of yours.


He's just another know it all engineer that has a 5.0 gpa and is stupid enough to think that his overpaying job doesn't rely on coked steel "green" (green - ish power!)
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:
I said you are grasping at straws.

A pro environmental stance that equates to a loss of 0.1% of the jobs does not equate to a "war on labor." Sorry, that's YOUR party's platform.

The people that you and I were speaking about earlier don't give a rats ass about pro environmental stances. They want to work. They expect you and I to provide a path for doing that, preferably pro environmental. That's why we are the smart 1% and they are just middle class (for now). But if it can't be (or until it can be) pro environmental (because we weren't smart enough to make one), the alternative can't be nothing.

If your or my choice is to eliminate their job prior to us being smart enough to provide an acceptable level of environmental safety relative to what they are doing, or an acceptable alternative to their current job such that they can continue on the same path they had been, then they are going to react as human nature dictates. And they are going to blame you or me for the failure. And they are going to seek out anyone who thinks/talks/promises/ etc etc like they do/want.

If they believe you are going out of your way to eliminate their job (or any job they identify with) they will consider you to have declared war on them and their families.

This is not some esoteric thing we are talking about.
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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https://www.nytimes.com/...f-rural-america.html

I like James Rebanks - I think the linked article is analogous to coal mining in so far as, the consequences of losing industries.

I think that the issue of globalisation - and coal is one area that is impacted by this in addition to environmental pressures - is really interesting.

Obviously, the US (and any other country for that matter) would prefer to export at zero tariffs and import nothing but in the real world this results in all sorts of compromises.

http://rodrik.typepad.com/...zation-trilemma.html

I do not know - realistically - what DJT can really accomplish, he can potentially delay the imminent demise of the coal industry by rolling back environmental legislation but in the long run, solar, nuclear (potentially significant new technologies coming on line in next 5-10 years) will all drive coal out of business.

the problem is less coal, than a national strategy - that most western governments have promulgated that placed cheap "x" (be it food, consumables, technology, energy etc) over local, regional and national economies and the situation that we are now confronted with in many western countries is that set out in the Rebanks article (and this one https://www.nytimes.com/...ch-towns-fading.html)

I am not sure that DJT can turn the clock back in any meaningful way against the tide of globalisation - even if he could tariff the S**t out of imports, that is obviously not without reciprocal consequences for US businesses, and even if he took a longer term view that the US needs more of Y skill (engineers for example), the lead time for that is probably no less than 5, and probably closer to 10 years from development of a policy to seeing the results at the other end.

Its not as if the US has a similar national program of development to Germany where kids are streamed and directed at an early age in to trades / engineering etc

I don't think he can do it, I think if he attempts to the US will be taught some pretty unpleasant lessons by its current trading partners and I think in most instances when governments have attempted to produce a skill set that is in short supply, they incentivise its development and then end up with to many of them

The reason that I think engineering and manufacturing wise Germany has prospered (aside from an undervalued currency) is that companies know that the workforce they get is highly skilled and has huge amounts of government support something I am not sure that the US could replicate in the short term.
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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You've always had a special talent with building straw men. I'm pretty sure no one has a problem with "protecting jobs."


Ridiculous. Of course they do.

Trump tries to protect jobs associated with the coal industry, and the reaction is contempt and mockery. "Trump is full of shit about coal mining! That industry is dead, the jobs aren't coming back!"

Trump talks about protecting jobs associated with manufacturing, and the reaction is contempt and mockery. Mark Cuban accuses him of not understanding the 21st century, because those jobs are going to be automated, and they aren't coming back!

Trump saves 1000 Carrier jobs from being shipped to Mexico, and he's an idiot, because Americans can't compete with cheap labor in other countries, and those jobs aren't coming back!

It's not a new refrain, either. The working class has been hearing the same old song for a long time. "Don't expect to be able to make a decent living without a college degree like your parents did, or like you were able to up until now. Global economy and all, my good man. Hup hup, pip pip. Those jobs aren't coming back!" And if you don't think there's a crystal clear undercurrent of contempt communicated along with that, you're delusional.

What never gets addressed is a realistic alternative. Then Trump comes along and at least makes a serious gesture at trying to help, and all some people can do is throw shade at him.

There's no strawman in any of that, it's just the way it is. It's most of the reason Trump got elected.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I do not post much at all or ever but I do read irregularly.

***Disclaimer*** I work installing vibration monitoring for industry (Coal, Natural Gas, Oil refining, Chemical Production, Paper Mills) I have an Engineering degree, 3.4 for those concerned. I have oil covered FRC for the oil refinery I am currently working at sitting on the hotel room floor.

I would love to see coal go away and be replaced by something better, but at current prices/technology coal mops the floor with any "green" energy for base load. Natural gas mops the floor with "green" energy for peak load. Most of the information below has been acquired from people working in the industry and the dollar examples are made up. I am to lazy to research actual prices and they are used to show how some choices are made.

1. Coal is cheep, basically dirt cheep

2. Coal plants are cleaner now that we burn very little of the shit coal that was dirt lignite. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lignite

3. Coal plants switching to natural gas has very little to do with the nominal price of natural gas. Example a coal power plant may need to spend 10 million dollars to meet new EPA standards or close down. The cost is say 5 million to convert to a natural gas boiler (side note these things are not efficient). If you say coal is $1/mega watt, natural gas is $5/mega watt an power sells on the open market for $40 a mega watt. Then the 10 M is the deciding factor for the switch not the raw fuel price. (second side note in some cases the new equipment can cause more emissions due to its own power consumption.

3. I have worked at 1 plant that has one main steam turbine, a handful of gas turbines (peakers) and in the next year will have a large solar installation. in the last year when the gas turbines would be dispatched it was cheaper to buy power on the open market.

4. Chasing wind regulations make emissions worse. One combined cycle plant I worked at quoted a 4x increase in emissions to chase wind because they would just chase load 24 hours a day as wind and solar changed outputs.

Solutions in my personal opinion.
The grid stays mostly the same.
1. We actual approve new nuclear plants to replace the coal base load to phase it out. Build this base load to cover a high percentage of peak load. Building on existing power plant ground can help if sourcing fuel is not a problem. Power transmission infrastructure is already in place and can help the job loss.
2. Develop some form of mass energy storage (batteries are less than ideal). The I believe it was ethanol from carbon dioxide if scale able could do this well. Use this energy storage during peak loads to make up any short falls. (before quoting thermodynamics read point 3)
3. Run any large base units at peak efficiency no mater the true grid load. Let solar and wind run whatever load it can. Use point 2 to soak up any excesses power and store it for peak hours.
4. Have sprinter units normally fast dispatch gas turbines that can make up any short falls or unplanned shutdowns
Cons. Potentially high costs, lack of adequate tech.

Redesign the power grid into semi-decentralized units.
Start with new housing developments. Require the houses to maintain solar or wind capable of supplying most of their energy needs. This small grid is connected to a storage bank. Think the ethanol example above due to its high energy density and storage capacity being limited only by tank size. This combined with a reasonably sized battery or capacitor bank. This can give the micro grid stable power while an ethanol fulled electrical generator starts to make up for lost generation. Multiple micro grids can be linked together to be able to support lost generation and upsets in another micro grid. This larger collection could have a conventional fuel generator for a last line backup.

The bottom line is most solar and wind applications would go tits up if not for government support. People would still adopt it but the forward progress would be a slow crawl. In this case when the prices reach an inversion point "green" being truly cheaper than cave power. There is a large chance that we would not have enough energy to make the transition as it takes energy to build solar/wind production.

Not the article I was looking for but page 3 paragraphs 3 and 4 make the point most people miss. How fast we can build these things. We can raise the productions rates but money will probably be the limiting factor.
https://www.friendsofscience.org/assets/documents/Renewable-energy-cannot-replace-FF_Lyman.pdf
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [Dougie2008] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for joining the conversation

We would all love to see coal be replaced by something better.

I have brought up nuclear in both threads. Silence from the anti coal crowd.
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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YOU are the one who wants to throw away these workers and their families!


troll

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Ridiculous. Of course they do.

Trump tries to protect jobs associated with the coal industry, and the reaction is contempt and mockery. "Trump is full of shit about coal mining! That industry is dead, the jobs aren't coming back!"


What if instead of coal miners it was abortion doctors. Would you be singing the same tune. "Golly gee, all he wants to do is save jobs. I don't see why people are on his case because he's trying to save jobs."

Its not the "saving jobs" part that is the issue. You would want to see abortion either reduced or eliminated. In order to do that, you have to put abortion doctors out of work. That's a consequence of the goal of reducing/eliminating abortions.

If Trump said, "Make Abortions Great Again," I highly doubt you'd be touting this as a great way to keep families employed.

To anyone opposed, JSA would say, "YOU want to put these families out of work."
And you would say, "He just wants to save their jobs, and you're deriding and mocking him."



Good grief, for once I wish we could just have an honest conversation around here. This has NOTHING to do with saving or getting rid of jobs and you guys know it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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YOU are the elitist who wants to pick which jobs are worthy and which are not!

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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I keep telling you "I get that." I have understood and agreed with just about everything you wrote.

JSA, the troll, referred to Obama's position against coal as a "war on labor." It's not. Just like the right's position against abortion isn't a "war on medicine."


Quote:
The people that you and I were speaking about earlier don't give a rats ass about pro environmental stances. They want to work. They expect you and I to provide a path for doing that, preferably pro environmental. That's why we are the smart 1% and they are just middle class (for now). But if it can't be (or until it can be) pro environmental (because we weren't smart enough to make one), the alternative can't be nothing.

If your or my choice is to eliminate their job prior to us being smart enough to provide an acceptable level of environmental safety relative to what they are doing, or an acceptable alternative to their current job such that they can continue on the same path they had been, then they are going to react as human nature dictates. And they are going to blame you or me for the failure. And they are going to seek out anyone who thinks/talks/promises/ etc etc like they do/want.

If they believe you are going out of your way to eliminate their job (or any job they identify with) they will consider you to have declared war on them and their families.

This is not some esoteric thing we are talking about.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I seriously wonder if you are an alcoholic. Its' taken you a while, but I've finally decided to add you to the hide list. You'll have to troll someone else from now on.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [ironmayb] [ In reply to ]
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Nuclear is not a great end goal, but its a good transition technology IMO.

Obviously we'd like to see wind and solar, but nukes ca help with the interim solution.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Stats about Coal (was going to call it "Why care about Coal?") [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Ok thanks. I didn't realize you had a hide list or I most likely wouldn't have started in the first place

I'm pretty anti hide list; to me it says more about the hide-Er than the hide-ee.
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