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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter


You don't get good results from any device. You get good results from executing sound basic training principles of consistency, frequency, progressive overload with recovery as needed, specificity and individualisation of your training and development needs.

Most half decent training plans and basic monitoring tools (a watch, RPE, HR and even power meter used in a really basic manner) will get people some way towards executing these principles, e.g. it's very rare that someone I give a 2-3 month training plan to and who executes it does not improve, however such plans sacrifice some level of load management optimisation, specificity and individualisation.

Power meters (good ones at least) and the data they produce provide you with objectivity in assessing the training you are actually doing v. what you think you are doing. Neither RPE or HR can do that.

I mean far more than monitoring your work rate at any particular moment but right though to considering what you are doing in a more global sense. How what you are doing now (or previously, or this week/month etc) fits in with and impacts your season and even your entire athletic career.

Power data also helps one to better understand their current and historical physiological capabilities and its relationship with and response to your training, your physical attributes (e.g. aerodynamics), the specific demands of your races or goal events, and can help assessment of some riding/racing skills/execution, which leads to individualising and optimising your training and development program to suit your specific needs.

As a communications and logging tool, the objective power data balances the subjective feelings about how you are going. Both matter and it's more useful when subjective and objective are assessed together.

And interestingly, and somewhat in opposition to what many seem to think, power meters can actually provide you with a lot of freedom in the way you go about your training since once you recognise what's actually important you realise there are many ways to skin the training cat. Applying good training principles does not automatically imply overly regimented training.

To use power meters wisely and to a reasonable proportion of their potential for performance improvement requires an investment on your part to learn how to understand and apply the data.

Or you could just use it as a fancy speedo, effort monitor and ride logger. If that's all you intend to do though, I'd save your money and just follow a half decent plan and keep things fun.

http://www.rstsport.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
Last edited by: AlexS: Jan 23, 17 14:39
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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If you ride indoors on a trainer you can get set up on "virtual power" and trainer road for about $50. That's all I need.
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [mdtrihard] [ In reply to ]
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What is everyone's opinion of the stages Power Meter?
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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AlexS wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter


You don't get good results from any device. You get good results from executing sound basic training principles of consistency, frequency, progressive overload with recovery as needed, specificity and individualisation of your training and development needs.

Most half decent training plans and basic monitoring tools (a watch, RPE, HR and even power meter used in a really basic manner) will get people some way towards executing these principles, e.g. it's very rare that someone I give a 2-3 month training plan to and who executes it does not improve, however such plans sacrifice some level of load management optimisation, specificity and individualisation.

Power meters (good ones at least) and the data they produce provide you with objectivity in assessing the training you are actually doing v. what you think you are doing. Neither RPE or HR can do that.

I mean far more than monitoring your work rate at any particular moment but right though to considering what you are doing in a more global sense. How what you are doing now (or previously, or this week/month etc) fits in with and impacts your season and even your entire athletic career.

Power data also helps one to better understand their current and historical physiological capabilities and its relationship with and response to your training, your physical attributes (e.g. aerodynamics), the specific demands of your races or goal events, and can help assessment of some riding/racing skills/execution, which leads to individualising and optimising your training and development program to suit your specific needs.

As a communications and logging tool, the objective power data balances the subjective feelings about how you are going. Both matter and it's more useful when subjective and objective are assessed together.

And interestingly, and somewhat in opposition to what many seem to think, power meters can actually provide you with a lot of freedom in the way you go about your training since once you recognise what's actually important you realise there are many ways to skin the training cat. Applying good training principles does not automatically imply overly regimented training.

To use power meters wisely and to a reasonable proportion of their potential for performance improvement requires an investment on your part to learn how to understand and apply the data.

Or you could just use it as a fancy speedo, effort monitor and ride logger. If that's all you intend to do though, I'd save your money and just follow a half decent plan and keep things fun.

Thanks,

That was refreshing, regardless of training philosophy or methodology ultimately most of us want to get better/faster.

Agree that one of the best uses is when you "diverge from current" to something different in terms of approach.

Maurice

http://www.multisportsolutions.com
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
What is everyone's opinion of the stages Power Meter?
It will enable low-fi applications of power data (e.g. basic monitoring of effort while training, ride logging, that sort of thing) but the unilateral nature of power measurement has accuracy limitations which mean the data is insufficiently reliable for hi-fi power data applications.

Consider it a gateway drug into training with power.

http://www.rstsport.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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Stages is what some pros use (froome) correct?
Last edited by: Fishbum: Jan 24, 17 4:30
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter

crunched triathlete - no you do not need it, since you are time constrained look in to HIT, you will not overload yourself, hammer down each time you are on the bike, overloading all system will probably bring you best results if you are fairly healthy. Spend as much time as possible in high intensity zones, since you are time constrained there is no time on LSD base riding.
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
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Fishbum wrote:
Stages is what some pros use (froome) correct?

I would say the Stages units Team Sky uses are not the same ones that are commercially available.
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [walie] [ In reply to ]
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walie wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
Stages is what some pros use (froome) correct?

I would say the Stages units Team Sky uses are not the same ones that are commercially available.
That and the fact that Stages is a sponsor of the team. Pros often ride what they are required to advertise, not what is necessarily optimal.

http://www.rstsport.com
http://www.aerocoach.com.au
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [AlexS] [ In reply to ]
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So let's change the question then To how to properly train for the bike with a heart rate monitor Or should I repost
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Hoffmeister] [ In reply to ]
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Hoffmeister wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
I do consider my self pretty in touch with my body as a long time runner. This will be my third year cycling and my weakness. I'm not familiar with a recovery monitor


I was in a similar position as you .. I bought a Kickr, Power meter and Trainerroad subscription and have had massive improvements in my bike times.

You can probably get similar training effects from a smart trainer + trainerroad, but you wouldn't have the real time information on your pacing during a race.

Or a "dumb" trainer + trainerroad. If it's a trainer they have data for, they can calculate an estimated power ("Virtual power.") and all you need is a cheap speed sensor ($25-35ish). It may not accurately compare to other people's power meters, but it does accurately compare to your own numbers which is what matters.

I am not a super experienced athlete and I find power based training to be super helpful. It gives me feedback on whether I am working at the most beneficial intensity for what the workout requires. This can be whether I'm maintaining the target power when it's hard, or whether I'm "recovering hard enough" when it's supposed to be a recovery interval. Sometimes when the workout is really hard and I'm not sure I can do it, I get a kind of encouragement from the fact that trainerroad knows my FTP and they think I can do this, so I ought to be able to do it.
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [alathIN] [ In reply to ]
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The answer is that no, you don't need one. But if you are ambitious it is valuable tool. And If you want to reach your max physical potential based on the amount of time you are willing to train, I would say that it is essential.


My wife and I have a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine and a Garmin speed sensor - easily swapped between bikes and it has changed our lives. I use Zwift plus music and she uses Trainer Road plus movies/tv. I had my trainer for years before I got Zwift and virtual power and I rarely ever used it - too boring. Now I use it all the time because of power based workouts make it extremely effective. Wife trained ineffectively before virtual power, now trainer road has her number so to speak and she STICKS to the workouts. Very effective.

No power meter outside means that if I want to challenge myself, I go for PRs on designated Strava segments.

It would be nice to have power meter outside to pace myself in breakaways and on certain segments, but therein lies the romanticism of cycling - wouldn't want to ruin that!
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter
Obviously HR is not an absolute measurement and is subject to variation when, sick, excited, tired, dehydrated, etc and with changes in fitness.

I think because of that HR is even a more absolute measurement compared to a PM.
I still suffer a bit from a cold and did this weekend intervals with a low pedalling frequency at home on the roller. I always do these intervals with a HR of 130. I had a power of 190W, whereas in december I did the same thing with 215W.

What I want to say is that if would have been wrong to try to hold the power of 215W, it was a lot wiser to stick to HR 130.
HR measures the intensity better than the PM
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [longtrousers] [ In reply to ]
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longtrousers wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter
.............Obviously HR is not an absolute measurement and is subject to variation when, sick, excited, tired, dehydrated, etc and with changes in fitness...........


I think because of that HR is even a more absolute measurement compared to a PM.
I still suffer a bit from a cold and did this weekend intervals with a low pedalling frequency at home on the roller. I always do these intervals with a HR of 130. I had a power of 190W, whereas in december I did the same thing with 215W.

What I want to say is that if would have been wrong to try to hold the power of 215W, it was a lot wiser to stick to HR 130.
HR measures the intensity better than the PM
I think you miss my meaning when I mention HR not being an absolute measurement, and I'm not sure I was completely clear on my meaning.
HR is all relative. You can't directly compare HR today and tomorrow and know if you're improving or not. It doesn't tell you about your performance, just about how hard you're working and even then it's highly effected by other factors. You can't compare your HR with someone else's and say who's fitter, who's got more ability or who's working hardest.
Power on the other hand is a direct measurement of output. You could compare your power while well trained but sick in hot, humid conditions riding up an incline when you were 30 to the power you were able to produce on a chilly winter day on the flat with a tailwind in the middle of the off season when your 60.

Power is a single number that tells you what you produce. It's nothing to do with how you feel, who you are or the circumstances.
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Re: Do I really need a power meter [Ai_1] [ In reply to ]
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Ai_1 wrote:
longtrousers wrote:
Ai_1 wrote:
Fishbum wrote:
I have been read the time crunched triathlete. Carmichael makes it sound like you can get pretty good result from a HR monitor. Sooo do I really need a power meter
.............Obviously HR is not an absolute measurement and is subject to variation when, sick, excited, tired, dehydrated, etc and with changes in fitness...........


I think because of that HR is even a more absolute measurement compared to a PM.
I still suffer a bit from a cold and did this weekend intervals with a low pedalling frequency at home on the roller. I always do these intervals with a HR of 130. I had a power of 190W, whereas in december I did the same thing with 215W.

What I want to say is that if would have been wrong to try to hold the power of 215W, it was a lot wiser to stick to HR 130.
HR measures the intensity better than the PM
I think you miss my meaning when I mention HR not being an absolute measurement, and I'm not sure I was completely clear on my meaning.
HR is all relative. You can't directly compare HR today and tomorrow and know if you're improving or not. It doesn't tell you about your performance, just about how hard you're working and even then it's highly effected by other factors. You can't compare your HR with someone else's and say who's fitter, who's got more ability or who's working hardest.
Power on the other hand is a direct measurement of output. You could compare your power while well trained but sick in hot, humid conditions riding up an incline when you were 30 to the power you were able to produce on a chilly winter day on the flat with a tailwind in the middle of the off season when your 60.

Power is a single number that tells you what you produce. It's nothing to do with how you feel, who you are or the circumstances.

I totally agree with you.
All I wanted to say is that HR gives you a better idea about intensity than Power does. Generally. There are exceptions, for example short hard intervals.

Another example: It is hot and you are doing a race. You have a PM and a HF meter. You notice that the HF at a certain power is higher than would be expected under normal conditions.
What do you do? I guess that nowedays there are a lot of people who try to stick to the power (some people will not even know of the higher HR because they only measure power, not HR) However I think it would be better to slow down a bit.

Again, I think in training and also in a race it is intensity what it's all about, and that is (generally) measured more precisely by HR than by power.
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