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P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is
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The subject mostly says it. We need owners of mold-breaking, non-UCI-legal, moon-shooting, slowman-beloved bicycles to produce some video evidence that shows how flimsy, crappy, and structurally unsafe they really are -- or perhaps the opposite, if such a thing can be substantiated with similar evidence. We welcome other admissions, like the 2013 Culprit or other apparent engineering disasters.

The way to play for those who own one of these craptraps is simple. Conduct a series of three ten second videos modeled after the following three videos (here and here and here) and share with the community on this thread. We are looking to assess torsional stiffness, vertical/horizontal compliance, and just generally shit carbon layups.

I'll stipulate that an unsubstantiated opinion from me does not constitute fact and shall not form the basis for any form of libel. But that said, my working assumptions here are essentially as follows:
  • These bikes are more liabilities than assets this early in the game, because they are structurally flawed, noodle flimsy, and potentially unsafe for their owners/riders
  • These products should not (or cannot) be ridden on any trainer, or at least, not any modern trainer that secures the bike in some fashion by the rear skewer (all of them?), despite what manufacturers claim
  • There is no reason to buy any one of these bicycles over a bicycle that possesses seatstays, chainstays, seat tubes, down tubes, or all of the foregoing (e.g. nouveau Cube/BMC, Trek Speed Concept, Cervelo P5, Spesh Shiv, Felt IA, Premier Tactical, et al)
  • Manufacturers are only giving us these bikes because they cannot or will not give us better and faster bikes -- so they are giving us different bikes. These new beam bikes are not good in any sense -- they are slower, heavier, expensiver, more cumbersome, and I fear they could even spread degenerative disease.

Last edited by: PubliusValerius: Dec 19, 16 19:42
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I've been waiting for this thread and am not disappointed.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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We're all gonna need A LOT of popcorn for this one. What's your dog in this fight anyway? You seem to be very aggressively attacking this new generation on bikes for some reason. Just retired and have a bunch of free time on your hands? Still grumpy that Hillary lost? Is there some stock market play against beam bikes I'm not aware of?
I'm completely indifferent so not necessarily defending them. If they suck I want to know before I end up buying one.
Last edited by: TH3_FRB: Dec 19, 16 20:31
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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THAT'S how you kick off a thread. (Potential areas for improvement include actual libel, obviously baseless accusations of malicious intent, and inflammatory criticisms of Patrick Swayze's performance in Roadhouse.)

FWIW, I performed the 2 static "tests" on my traditionally designed frames (both carbon and aluminum) with simple spoked wheels and the difference was quite noticeable. The extent to which it matters...
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I did state that the Ventum does not seem to have any riding issues. In fact, my friends couldn't believe how close the rear wheel is to the chainstays and asked me to sprint while riding behind me and saw NO flex in the Ventum... So. I think some brands have done the right lay up and design work.

the 2016 Culprit Legend never made production but the chainstays were massive and wide and I know the factory who would make it could have produced it with enough stiffness. However. carbon layup development never happened cause I couldnt fund the project.

Once I get a helping hand, will get some videos up of my Ventum. But... One fact remains. Some of that flex of rim test has alot to do with wheels.

Shitty, flexy wheels, Brands I won't mention aren't as stiff as others and that shows in this test.....
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [culpritbicycles] [ In reply to ]
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culpritbicycles wrote:
But... One fact remains. Some of that flex of rim test has alot to do with wheels.

Shitty, flexy wheels, Brands I won't mention aren't as stiff as others and that shows in this test.....

Watch that video of the Omni in the trainer. That's 100% chainstay flex. The wheel is secured and the frame is swinging back and forth under relatively light power output.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [TH3_FRB] [ In reply to ]
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Not questioning that video, But pulling on a rim from the side, etc in a drop out is the test I am referring to.

When developing the original Legend I used the trainer in the factory with the whole carbon R&D team watching me to see the flex and test themselves. So I agree that the wheel locked on the roller of the trainer keeps it from moving and the chainstays are causing the flex.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I have an Omni on the way. Will report once I've built it up. I'll also ride it on my Omni trainer and post a video which is probably the most realistic simulation of how a bike would behave out on the road.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I know better than to feed the trolls, I really do. But why should/would we care how a race bike performs on the trainer? Are a lot of people buying these bikes primarily for indoor use?

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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How did the Kestrel KM40 & Airfoil do in the rear flex department? I loved those frames from an aesthetics point of view, even if they offered very little aero advantage.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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LOL...

I have a giant MCR2 replacing my P5, does that count?

Having said I am curious as to your tests, will report.

Cheers,
Maurice
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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REAP hasn't gone to market yet.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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CCF wrote:
I know better than to feed the trolls, I really do. But why should/would we care how a race bike performs on the trainer? Are a lot of people buying these bikes primarily for indoor use?

In the place where I live, Hong Kong, there aren't many places to ride a TT, so the majority of my training is done on turbo, hence this is a big deal for me. Pretty sure there are other reasons too. No need to dismiss the importance of the trainer.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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inflammatory criticisms of Patrick Swayze's performance in Roadhouse.


How is that even possible to imagine. Greatest film ever, he rips a guys throat out.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Your presentation is quite an art form, Pubes, but I can appreciate what your intent is here.

I have been contemplating something like this for a while, as I could see it as a standard for bike testing. I think this would be very challenging to do, though. I think if we were to make this a legitimate, useful test, we need to work out a few details.

1. Videos would be best with high frame rate cameras, at the same resolution, at the same distance from the subject, at the same angle. This would allow us to measure the movement using motion capture software or maybe even something like Retul. Instead of body markers, they're "points on the frame" markers.

2. We need controls. We need similar videos of standard double-diamond bikes mounted and measured the same way. We also need to control the rider - same weight/size, RPMs, power output during the video, etc. The rider's position relative to the bottom bracket would have to be standardized. Crank arm length is a factor. Pedal axle length is a factor. Ideally, the video would be a standard length with a standard protocol - a series of sprints standing and seated, hold FTP for 2 minutes, etc. It's like a trainer slalom course.

I like the concept as a potential industry-wide standard testing protocol, but there are a lot of factors that will have to be considered to make it even close to legit. Otherwise, it's the same problem we have with wind tunnel testing - extrinsic factors prevent us from trusting the data.

Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I had a Falco for about a year (did not pay for it, thank god). I had ridden behind Brad Williams on his and noticed a small amount of chainstay flex in normal riding situations. Others then noticed the same on mine.

However, I rode mine into the broad side of a minivan at 26mph but then continued to ride it for another 6 months - and I rode the fucking shit out of that bike. I should note I also had the TriRig Alpha bars on it and they took a considerable amount of the force in the collision and came out just fine, sans some clearcoat that stayed with the minivan.

While the chainstay flex certainly is disconcerting, I think it is just a symptom of the design and is not necessarily a major safety issue, though I will say the flex seen in the video of the Omni is much more than I ever saw on the Falco.

Falco's main issue lies with the people (or guy) that run the company. Or ran? Who fucking knows, that guy dropped off the face of the earth.

Internet User
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I'd love to do one of these videos but I can't put my Dimond on a trainer.

:-)

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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The seat and chainstays on my 2015 P2 do this...........maybe not as quite pronounced but they definitely have some flex. Not sure it makes it structurally unsound though. I would think most companies bringing bikes to market have done their due diligence as far as "safety" considering the immense liability- but that is just my opinion.

*And we definitely need a set of controls here as my bike does it a lot more with someone 200 lbs on the pedals as compared to my 145.
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I've also see an incredible amount of flex riding behind a Quintana Roo illicito (the one with the missing seat stay and massive chain stay. Add that to the list. The frame looked like it had an intentional pivot point at the BB (kind of like your video...)
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Just to spite you Cervelo should sponsor you with their beam bike to force you to change your wheel sets to disc brakes. I have nothing more to add to this thread. You'd probably end up selling your soul to the dark side of beam+disc brakes LOL!
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I must be losing touch, since I'd never heard of Reap until this thread

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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [robgray] [ In reply to ]
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Beam bike that shrouds the FD and small chainring with the frame. Looks to be monocoque construction with a seat mast. Horizontal dropouts just to piss me off -_-
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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I was just listening to the latest episode of the CyclingTips podcast and near the end someone, I think it was Nick Crumpton, said (to paraphrase) that the double-triangle is a very well-evolved design and should be with us for many years to come.

Based on this evidence he seems to be right!
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Re: P5-X, Ventum, Dimond, Falco, Reap owners -- please provide video evidence to show how structurally flawed, flimsy, and dangerous your frameset is [awenborn] [ In reply to ]
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You guys do realise that a bike frame is designed to have the wheel on the ground and the axles floating in space don't you?
Why would you put your race bike on a trainer anyways, just use a shitbox.
Ride your bike on the road where it was designed to perform as advertised.
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