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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Ray--first, there are a lot of things you are good at but indicting shitty power meters for inaccuracy is not one of them. It took you, what, nearly three years to add a note to the accuracy section of your Kickr review stating that some users have experienced issues. Seriously? That integrated power meter is so broadly and materially abysmal that all of the trainer apps have had to develop this 'PowerMatch' functionality so users could use another power meter, an external power meter, to fix the completely unreliable one from Wahoo that is included with their $1k product. And don't even get me started on your swooning over Stages, a power toy if there ever was one.

Second, I think you unfairly characterize my assessment as "gut feel". I know how I ride and in my half dozen or so rides with the P1s (and the one race on Sunday) showed me variability in the high level metrics that was exaggerated compared to my other units. If my DZero units had arrived in time I would have run a more robust side by side analysis, but I was convinced enough from the data I saw to date that I just went ahead and got my $1200 back. I like data but I don't do this for the consumerist masses as a profession like you so I went ahead and shipped the pedals back before running several full on multiple unit correlation tests, which as you know are not entirely instructive anyways. It's entirely plausible I got a bad pair, which can happen with any unit. But when it happens with an SRM I know how to verify what I'm seeing at home using basic tenets of physics (and a high quality weight of known mass).

Third, I don't know why you are saying that this is the first you've heard of accuracy issues unless you don't read the comments on your reviews, which of course you do. The comment section of your P1 review is like a de facto support group for customers who are having issues with these pedals.

Finally, your assessment of consumer-grade power meters is that they are prone to issues in general and unreliable as a rule, but individually you don't do a very good job stating which ones suck. Well, I'm telling you. The Wahoo Kickr OG sucks. The P1 pedals and especially the Garmin vectors suck. Stages sucks. Those new Brim Brothers jawns will suck. The one on the handlebars...I won't even go there. Why can't we just accept and agree that there are better places to measure strain than others? And there are better places than at the pedal.
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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There has been some hinting that P1's may not be as accurate in the upper steady output ranges (say 350-400 watts). Have you done any testing at that range to confirm they are accurate vs. say PT hub or SRM?

This was hinted at by a couple pro triathletes this spring as they were setting all time FTP type records on PT pedals. Where of course their FTP is mid-upper 300's.

Thanks.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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So again, to recap, you've got no data.

Check.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [cmscat50] [ In reply to ]
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cmscat50 wrote:
There has been some hinting that P1's may not be as accurate in the upper steady output ranges (say 350-400 watts). Have you done any testing at that range to confirm they are accurate vs. say PT hub or SRM?

This was hinted at by a couple pro triathletes this spring as they were setting all time FTP type records on PT pedals. Where of course their FTP is mid-upper 300's.

Thanks.

A lot of what I've seen there comes from I believe the BikeRadar review where they made some comments there, but it seemed to be related to really old firmware, as they later hinted at in some text (but not in the video review). Unrelated to that, there was a bug someone found late last year (Dec?) that was fixed I think in Jan/Feb around certain types of inclines where it wasn't properly resetting/zero'ing. It was a weird outlier that I think only 1-2 people saw in comments, but PT subsequently fixed via firmware update. I didn't see it during my rides in the Alps last year, though from talking to PT it has a very constrained set of requirements to get you into seeing it.

You'll see the P1's used in many of my power meter reviews, along with other power meters (usually 3-4). Including plenty of 350-400w chunks of data. Each of those reviews includes all of the data that folks can analyze/download/etc...and nobody has found anything amiss there.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [dcrainmaker] [ In reply to ]
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Excellent thanks.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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Pubes how about doing a ride and tracking your quarq and p1s at the same time and post the results here?
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [randomtriguy] [ In reply to ]
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randomtriguy wrote:
Pubes how about doing a ride and tracking your quarq and p1s at the same time and post the results here?

Yeah...well Ray has left me no choice but to do just that. Challenge accepted.
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
Those new Brim Brothers jawns will suck.

They won't even exist. You need to keep up with current events.
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [Pooks] [ In reply to ]
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Touche. I'm a couple days behind on my RSS feed so didn't see the news about Brim Brothers from yesterday.

Public service announcement to everyone....stop crowd funding stupid shit! Especially power toys like LIMITS, Brim Brothers, et al.

Let companies like Garmin and Shimano squander their own capital producing bad meters. Don't let them use your own to fail in this capacity.
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
It took you, what, nearly three years to add a note to the accuracy section of your Kickr review stating that some users have experienced issues. Seriously? That integrated power meter is so broadly and materially abysmal that all of the trainer apps have had to develop this 'PowerMatch' functionality so users could use another power meter, an external power meter, to fix the completely unreliable one from Wahoo that is included with their $1k product.


he got u there tho...

Kickr is just not accurate and they even admitted on your kickr2 review.

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [LuisDF] [ In reply to ]
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LuisDF wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
It took you, what, nearly three years to add a note to the accuracy section of your Kickr review stating that some users have experienced issues. Seriously? That integrated power meter is so broadly and materially abysmal that all of the trainer apps have had to develop this 'PowerMatch' functionality so users could use another power meter, an external power meter, to fix the completely unreliable one from Wahoo that is included with their $1k product.



he got u there tho...

Kickr is just not accurate and they even admitted on your kickr2 review.

Actually, that's not what they said. They talked about how with the original KICKR it was more susceptible to failures, which in turn led to accuracy issues. Which is some people had no issues, and yet others had issues. By removing that element, they believe they're able to reduce the strain gauge failures which caused accuracy issues.


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My tiny little slice of the internets: dcrainmaker.com
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [swim_corey_run] [ In reply to ]
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This review ultimately lead me to get a crank based power meter (P2M). They did like the powertap hubs in this review too. Good luck finding a power meter.
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [narcomoeba] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of talk of the P1s reading high at higher outputs (280+), has anyone posted data comparing the P1s to supposedly more reliable alternatives like SRM?

Also, what was the issue with battery choice on the P1s, are there certain batteries to avoid?

EDIT: Of course Ray posted lots of snippets of data, and his overall assessment, in his detailed P1 review. His bottom line assessment was, "I’m just not seeing anything in any of my files that even hints at power or cadence accuracy issues." Eyeballing the data snippets he posted, the P1s do seem to skew a little higher than the G3 hub at higher power output, though whether that's within the range of what would be expected given their position more proximate to the source of power, I'm not certain. https://www.dcrainmaker.com/...1-pedals-review.html

And as Ray wrote above, "You'll see the P1's used in many of my power meter reviews, along with other power meters (usually 3-4). Including plenty of 350-400w chunks of data. Each of those reviews includes all of the data that folks can analyze/download/etc...and nobody has found anything amiss there."
Last edited by: niccolo: Oct 26, 16 13:28
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [PubliusValerius] [ In reply to ]
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PubliusValerius wrote:
randomtriguy wrote:
Pubes how about doing a ride and tracking your quarq and p1s at the same time and post the results here?


Yeah...well Ray has left me no choice but to do just that. Challenge accepted.

Any update, anxious to see...
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Re: Anybody have the Powertap P1S pedals? [dandr614] [ In reply to ]
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dandr614 wrote:
PubliusValerius wrote:
randomtriguy wrote:
Pubes how about doing a ride and tracking your quarq and p1s at the same time and post the results here?


Yeah...well Ray has left me no choice but to do just that. Challenge accepted.


Any update, anxious to see...

I doubt anyone is suggesting Ray fraudulently massages the data he posts to make the P1s look good, and even if he improbably had that motivation it would have to be a pretty heroic effort. So I'm not even sure this requires any new data, someone could just take a careful look at some of the reams of data he's already shared. Ray's already made clear he doesn't see these issues, but that doesn't mean that someone else couldn't reevaluate the data to try to make an alternate case.
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