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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
Brooks Doughtie wrote:
From Wiggins himself on how they got TUE.

“It was prescribed for allergies and respiratory problems,” Wiggins told BBC1 in an interview that will be aired Sunday. “I’ve been a lifelong sufferer of asthma and I went to my team doctor at the time and we went in turn to a specialist to see if there’s anything else we could do to cure these problems. And he in turn said: ‘Yeah, there’s something you can do but you’re going to need authorization from cycling’s governing body [the UCI].'”
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/...#2XyZAmsFo8GmEt1V.99


Interesting since the TUE says it is for an allergy to grass and pollen, not for asthma.


All the "Winners" with asthma are dopers.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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DB and BW have both kind of implied that the TUE was for preventative reasons as much as treating an actual condition. That would at least sit better with Wiggins claim to have been in great health coming up to the 2012 TdF (but still doesn't square with his claim to have never had an injection other than a vaccination) and is a more plausible justification than coincidentally getting the same health problems just before a major GT, 3 years in a row.

Whether that fits with how TUEs should be used is a matter of opinion. First criteria is "The athlete would experience significant health problems without taking the prohibited substance or method". I guess to satisfy this properly you'd have to show that Wiggins was highly likely (or almost certain?) to have asthma/allergy problems which would significantly impact performance based on previous years. I don't know how this could be convincing - he was clearly in pretty good shape in 2009 when he finished 4th in the TdF (and got bumped up to 3rd), and presumably given what Garmin's doctor has said he wasn't on any TUEs back then.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know how legit Wiggin's allergies are/were, but I used to live in the UK and suffered pretty bad pollen allergies. But when I would visit France in the summer it would become far, far worse. Really debilitating. So if he suffered anything like I would in France, then I can imagine wanting to take something preventative. That's not to absolve him of scrutiny, nor question why such a powerful drug is being allowed under a TUE right before a race, but it could speak to the motive of wanting to find something to stop any potential debilitating hayfever bouts.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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The issue I have is, if you have health issues due to ashtma and you are only taking an medicine that really helps right before an GT and not rest of year?

How the hell are you able to train the rest of the time to a world class level? Just seems very odd.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
The issue I have is, if you have health issues due to ashtma and you are only taking an medicine that really helps right before an GT and not rest of year?

How the hell are you able to train the rest of the time to a world class level? Just seems very odd.

My understanding was that you don't need a TUE for that substance unless it is used in racing. Someone please confirm. So he could be using it all along in training.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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At least one physician should comment on whether you'd prescribe this simply to prevent something happening

Or maybe he's just unlucky and it only happens before A races and not when he's on the continent the rest of the time
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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He'd need if it it was on a WADA list and he's subject to out of competition testing i think

You cant rock up with a T Rx just because youre not competing on a given day. At least thats not my understanding of it
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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According to the usada and I searched it for UK cyclists, out of comp is allowed to use triamcinolone.

Ok great, allowed to use during training.

Now here is the sticky part.

How did he win Paris Nice, Dauphine, and Tour of Romandie in 2012 (eta: added year 2012 when he won the Tour) without the drug and TUE?

So he can race in France without it less than 1 month before TdF? Yawn.

Sky, I give you mad props for gaming the hell out of the system and yet again making cycling have lots and lots of egg on their face.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: Brooks Doughtie: Sep 27, 16 7:57
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So in a matter of 20 days an athlete doing 2 races in the same general area shows what symptoms to getting an TUE? From wiki "it was viewed as a great prep for July's TdF, hence why a majority of the contenders for the GC of the major tour participated in the Dauphine".


-wins an week long race on June 10th without the drug and TUE (or atleast not with an TUE, and he didn't test positive.....so clean)

-starts a 3 week long race June 30th with the drug and TUE.

So how/why did Sky show he needed it again? UCI deserves negative for giving it, but it's not clear what led to sky's reasoning for it?

Eta: if you say "allergies" then why does he get the TUE over different months and only before a GT over a few years?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: Brooks Doughtie: Sep 27, 16 8:12
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
So in a matter of 20 days an athlete doing 2 races in the same general area shows what symptoms to getting an TUE? From wiki "it was viewed as a great prep for July's TdF, hence why a majority of the contenders for the GC of the major tour participated in the Dauphine".


-wins an week long race on June 10th without the drug and TUE (or atleast not with an TUE, and he didn't test positive.....so clean)

-starts a 3 week long race June 30th with the drug and TUE.

So how/why did Sky show he needed it again? UCI deserves negative for giving it, but it's not clear what led to sky's reasoning for it?

Eta: if you say "allergies" then why does he get the TUE over different months and only before a GT over a few years?

Hey hey.....don't you know that the weather changes in France from June to July.....allergies obviously go insane during TdF season

.....pink font entirely optional here.

Carry on with this thread!
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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And just an FYI, I'm not trying to throw mud on anyone, but point out the likely facts in this case.

For a team that talked about being "above" all this stuff, it certainly feels creepy.

But why wouldn't they do it, if they can. I don't see how you can compete without doing these things in the sport of cycling.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
cartsman wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For the record, yes, I think Wiggins is a doper. Same with Froome. Same with the Williams sisters. And same with Bobridge and most of the other athletes implicated by Fancy Bears.

Doper, as in you think what has been published already counts as doping? Or doper, as in you think they've also been doing things which are outside the letter of the rules?

I think, as others have said, that what has been published it outside of the letter of the rules. In other words, I disagree pretty strongly with the idea that just because they ostensibly followed the TUE procedure that everything is kosher. I think it's clear that, as regards some of the more subjective clauses within the TUE requirements, they violated the specific letter of those rules.

As far as whether or not they ALSO took something for which you cannot get a TUE, I don't really think that matters. But it wouldn't surprise me either way. With the TUE process so easily abused, why bother risking it? But, if you are going to break some of WADA's rules, why would you care about breaking more of them?

Except they didn't break WADA's rules re: the TUE.

Again, not defending Wiggins or saying he didn't game the system, but if wea re gonna make the argument that he essentially doped, we should make sure we have the facts straight.

That's where I disagree.

WADA wrote:
3. WHAT ARE THE CRITERIA FOR GRANTING A TUE?

The criteria are:
- The athlete would experience significant health problems without taking the prohibited substance or method;
- The therapeutic use of the substance would not produce significant enhancement of performance;
- There is no reasonable therapeutic alternative to the use of the otherwise prohibited substance or method;
- The requirement to use that substance or method is not due to the prior use of the substance or method without a TUE which was prohibited at the time of use.
For the TUE to be granted, all four criteria must be met.

from: https://www.wada-ama.org/...emption-tue#item-726

I would say that #1, #2, & #3 are all very questionable - or demonstrably false - in the case of Wiggins. In my *OPINION*, Wiggins did NOT meet all four requirements, and yet he was granted a TUE anyway. Now, you could say that the TUE system is broken or easily gamed or whatever. But fundamentally, the rules are pretty clear. At least in how they are written. That the rules are not actually enforced with that same clarity is disappointing. But that does not absolve a party who breaks the rules of breaking them.

OK, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, but you are now conflating it with fact. The facts are that Wiggo applied for, and received, a TUE according to the rules. He did not "break the rules".

You can argue that he violated the "spirit" of the rules (and I likely would agree), but factually he did not break any rules.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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Curious justification for why they wanted to apply for TUE and why it was given.

I've not seen anything to justify why they should have seeken it out other than to get an advantage. The time frames of when they applied for it don't make sense. "Allergies" only when you do a 3 week bike race. Of course.

They and uci have a lot to answer for.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
Curious justification for why they wanted to apply for TUE and why it was given.

I've not seen anything to justify why they should have seeken it out other than to get an advantage. The time frames of when they applied for it don't make sense. "Allergies" only when you do a 3 week bike race. Of course.

They and uci have a lot to answer for.

Maybe RowToTri should change the title of the thread to:

Is someone who takes banned products with TUE a doper, or is that person a non doper.

My 2 cents.

Look at it this way first...you can be a doper on account of taking doping products with a TUE and be legally clean.

But we're all dopers who are legally clean, at least everyone of us that takes coffee....so where do you draw the line?

So I take back my above statement and say you can't be a doper unless you broke a rule. Wiggins did everything legally in that its not up to us to judge if his doctors were slippery and loose and compliant. Its up to WADA to decide that, since we don't have all the fact at hand (same with Serena, same with Biles). I don't like it, but by the letter of the rule, what Wiggo did was not doping. It was playing legally.

I think you have to draw the line somewhere and that line drawing starts with setting rules and making athletes and teams follow them. Otherwise it is a slippery slope of morals based interpretations. The only morals that should come into play are those encoded in the rules, otherwise its free for all in terms of accusing everyone you don't like of doing something that just does not happen to fall in line with your personal moral code of ethics.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
So he was injected with a powerful corticosteroid with potentially dangerous side-effects just before the 2011 and 2012 Tours de France and the 2013 Giro. He applied for and received a TUE for them both times - so he followed the rules.


Wiggo, Froome, Cancellara,Skinner and quite a few more....

Ok they all needed TUE due to their "grave conditions" before the competition... check the times oft heir TUE and check their palmares. And what is very peculiar and absolutely obvious...., it was all enabled by one single Dr. Zorzoli....

That doctor for no reason was suspended not long ago, then reinstated, then quit.....All of this smells like shit from a mile...If this would all be kosher, he would be still doing what he was doing, the fact that few @$$holes is trying to say it is fine to dope with TUE , doesn't change the fact that it is doping. If you don't see it you are probably on TUE yourself, and I'm sorry for your,

All documents can be downloaded here: http://fancybear.net/ add @FancyBears guys on Twitter and you will see other people with severe asthma beating those healthy, because asthma actually helps excel in those sports... (sarcasm)

And when you look at Williams TUE list, holly... she is a walking pharmacy... I'm surprised she can actually live every day life someone from WADA should go to jail for this...

I'm selling my 2 team SKY jerseys and Cancellara pic goes off the wall from my cycling studio...
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:

Interesting since the TUE says it is for an allergy to grass and pollen, not for asthma.

Respiratory allergies are a strong asthma trigger. Not saying that justifies the TUE (my thoughts are pretty clear above), just pointing out that this bit isn't necessarily an inconsistency.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [sebo2000] [ In reply to ]
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sebo2000 wrote:


Wiggo, Froome, Cancellara,Skinner and quite a few more....

Ok they all needed TUE due to their "grave conditions" before the competition... check the times oft heir TUE and check their palmares.


Cancellara seems kind of legit to me. Doesn't fit the pattern.

There's a pretty solid record that he had an actual acute medical condition. He was hospitalized before the 2011 Vuelta. There are pictures from both TUEs showing his face was messed up. It's well-documented that he carries a sting kit on his training rides.

Also neither the Vuelta nor the Tour of Belgium are his "A" races. Those would be the Classics and WC/Olympic time trials.

Also it seems unlikely that Cancellara would go through the elaborate ruse of hospitalizing himself and punching himself in the face because 8 years later someone might hack WADA and publicize his two TUEs.

I'm a Spartacus fanboi, but, still, trail gives a pass on this one. If you want to argue that the rules should be changed so that athletes in the future are forced to either withdraw from the race, or race without the treatment, then fine. But it's hard to fault a professional athlete for exceeding the published standards of WADA for what was probably an actual serious medical problem.
Last edited by: trail: Sep 27, 16 12:38
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
Curious justification for why they wanted to apply for TUE and why it was given.

I've not seen anything to justify why they should have seeken it out other than to get an advantage. The time frames of when they applied for it don't make sense. "Allergies" only when you do a 3 week bike race. Of course.

They and uci have a lot to answer for.

I don't disagree....but the facts are that at least two doctors and the oversight committee at WADA felt it was justified and no rules were broken.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Dev, you're drawing a false equivalence. If the rule says "12m back", and you stay 12m back, then you're obeying the rules in letter and spirit. If the rules say, "you can use otherwise prohibited drugs to treat an existing medical condition as long as you obtain a specific form of approval", and you invent a condition to justify using some drug that you think will help your performance, that's cheating.

I don't know whether BW is an asthma sufferer or whether the treatment is appropriate. If he is and it is, then sure - carry on. But so many inconsistencies have come to light that it's reasonable to wonder whether the critical elements on which the TUE rests are legitimate, and if they're not, then he was cheating. Or, if you want to stick to the credo that you're not cheating unless the UCI or WADA say you were, he was morally in the wrong. And to return to your original analogy, someone who sits 12m behind another rider, when the draft zone is 12m long, and who takes <15 seconds to exit that zone when the rules allow 15s to pass, is not in any kind of moral grey area.... hence the false equivalence.

The issue of whether or not the TUE should have been granted is, to some extent, a separate question. My reading of the timelines that have been quoted and the procedures that were followed is that the process broke down in this instance, and that an exemption was granted when perhaps one wasn't warranted. But whether or not the TUE should have been given, on the basis of what was submitted, doesn't alter the fact that the submission shouldn't have been made if BW wasn't suffering from whatever malady he claimed to be, if there weren't other permitted remedies available, etc. And if it shouldn't have been made, then it's cheating, in the same way that appealing for a catch in baseball or cricket when you know that the ball hit the ground before you took it is cheating, regardless of whether the umpire gives it out or not.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
sebo2000 wrote:


Wiggo, Froome, Cancellara,Skinner and quite a few more....

Ok they all needed TUE due to their "grave conditions" before the competition... check the times oft heir TUE and check their palmares.


Cancellara seems kind of legit to me. Doesn't fit the pattern.

There's a pretty solid record that he had an actual acute medical condition. He was hospitalized before the 2011 Vuelta. There are pictures from both TUEs showing his face was messed up. It's well-documented that he carries a sting kit on his training rides.

Also neither the Vuelta nor the Tour of Belgium are his "A" races. Those would be the Classics and WC/Olympic time trials.

Also it seems unlikely that Cancellara would go through the elaborate ruse of hospitalizing himself and punching himself in the face because 8 years later someone might hack WADA and publicize his two TUEs.

I'm a Spartacus fanboi, but, still, trail gives a pass on this one. If you want to argue that the rules should be changed so that athletes in the future are forced to either withdraw from the race, or race without the treatment, then fine. But it's hard to fault a professional athlete for exceeding the published standards of WADA for what was probably an actual serious medical problem.



Fair enough, his pic stays..., I always loved Spartacus, his later TUE are kinda questionable but...

Those TUE rules should change, if you are on TUE you are not competing. If it takes 30 days for drug to disappear from your system, you are not competing for 45 just to give enough buffer.

If you take TUE and win, your gold medal does not count, because it means you didn't need TUE, this way nobody will apply for TUE to get ahead, but to really get back in action. In other words you must be severely F##$%@ to apply for TUE, and you are doing it only to be ready for next season, because this season you are done anyway.

Each TUE should be public, unanimously approved by 6 doctors from different disciplines, different countries drown randomly from pool of 500 doctors. Yes it should be really obvious that even doctor that doesn't know your history of athlete should say: ok this guy needs it he is f#@$%^.

Public and spectators should be able to sign up for all details of why/when/who gets TUE. I pay my hard earn money buying Rapha\cervelo\trek stuff based on athletes performance etc. If Athlete says I do not take drugs I always race clean, then it comes up he was doping legitimately on TUE, why not full transparency??
Just say it: I crashed in this race and had to take some powerful stuff because I could not get on the bike next day, problem is they all take stuff before the race...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ia-SE-lirYg
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [gord] [ In reply to ]
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gord wrote:
Dev, you're drawing a false equivalence. If the rule says "12m back", and you stay 12m back, then you're obeying the rules in letter and spirit. If the rules say, "you can use otherwise prohibited drugs to treat an existing medical condition as long as you obtain a specific form of approval", and you invent a condition to justify using some drug that you think will help your performance, that's cheating.

I don't know whether BW is an asthma sufferer or whether the treatment is appropriate. If he is and it is, then sure - carry on. But so many inconsistencies have come to light that it's reasonable to wonder whether the critical elements on which the TUE rests are legitimate, and if they're not, then he was cheating. Or, if you want to stick to the credo that you're not cheating unless the UCI or WADA say you were, he was morally in the wrong. And to return to your original analogy, someone who sits 12m behind another rider, when the draft zone is 12m long, and who takes <15 seconds to exit that zone when the rules allow 15s to pass, is not in any kind of moral grey area.... hence the false equivalence.

The issue of whether or not the TUE should have been granted is, to some extent, a separate question. My reading of the timelines that have been quoted and the procedures that were followed is that the process broke down in this instance, and that an exemption was granted when perhaps one wasn't warranted. But whether or not the TUE should have been given, on the basis of what was submitted, doesn't alter the fact that the submission shouldn't have been made if BW wasn't suffering from whatever malady he claimed to be, if there weren't other permitted remedies available, etc. And if it shouldn't have been made, then it's cheating, in the same way that appealing for a catch in baseball or cricket when you know that the ball hit the ground before you took it is cheating, regardless of whether the umpire gives it out or not.

I think we can all "sniff" what was going on. But then tighten the rules so guys like Wiggins don't get away with it. That's what I am getting at. If he legally got the TUE he did not cheat. He could fabricate all kinds of reason why the TUE was needed provided he could generate the correct supporting documents, then he's followed the rules. The problem many of you guys get into is all this discussion about the spirit of the rules and moral code and all of that. Like I said, I don't feel he followed the spirit, and it does not conform with what I think is morally right, but I bet you some guy from Khazhakstan or Kenya is thinking that every everything Wiggo did is just fine and they are going to do exactly the same thing and get legally juiced up. So you need a tighter system.

Now if you prove that the TUE is invalid then he cheated, but right now the TUE is valid so no rules were broken so legally speaking no cheating. Using our morals, yeah, he probably was on the wrong side of our moral code, but our moral code unfortunately carries zero weight in getting his TdF title revoked. Prove the TUE was invalid and that this was straight up cheating, then it's all good. Until then he did everything legally.

It's like the train at 70.3 Worlds. All legal slipstreaming at legal distance....or maybe actually not. As it stands Wiggins was likely MORE LEGAL than most of the 70.3 WC front group as more than one of us saw guys slide inside 12m and not make the pass. That's definitely illegal and cheating (the fact that they got away with it does not make it "not cheating"), but they got away with it as no ref was there. Wiggo on the other hand has tabled everything he has done to the "refs" and has not hidden anything that we are aware of.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Power13] [ In reply to ]
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See I've never really said any rules have been broken. I'm not even caring if he's a labeled doper or not. I'm more out to show how Sky behaves.

I've just said Sky based on facts I've seen is now dodgy. You or dev may be cool with how they acted but I'm not. That's BS way of gaming the system. Thay system needs fixing.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
See I've never really said any rules have been broken. I'm not even caring if he's a labeled doper or not. I'm more out to show how Sky behaves.

I've just said Sky based on facts I've seen is now dodgy. You or dev may be cool with how they acted but I'm not. That's BS way of gaming the system. Thay system needs fixing.

Please go back and re-read my posts. You are assigning beliefs to me which I do not hold. In fact, I highlighted what I believe to be the simplest, easiest and fastest way to improve the TUE system.

My point re: rules being broken was in response to Jordan's claim that they were, in fact, broken.

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [Brooks Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Brooks Doughtie wrote:
See I've never really said any rules have been broken. I'm not even caring if he's a labeled doper or not. I'm more out to show how Sky behaves.

I've just said Sky based on facts I've seen is now dodgy. You or dev may be cool with how they acted but I'm not. That's BS way of gaming the system. Thay system needs fixing.

You and a bunch of posters are assigning beliefs to Power13 and I that neither of us have. Neither of us personally likes Sky's mode of operation on this topic. We are just trying to explain that Sky is doing everything legally. We don't need to like it, we don't need to support it, but we can be intellectually honest that they are following the rules as the rules are written. Don't like how they are behaving inside these rules, well, let's go get the rules re written, because you can't ask them to be even more stringent on themselves than what the rules allow. Yes, I realize they claimed to be on an anti doping platform, and guess what.....they TECHNICALLY have not doped. At least nothing we can prove.

As for some of you suddenly coming to the conclusion "NOW" that Sky is dodgy? Really, after all the years of the Postal train and Sky seemingly able to pull off the exact same thing at Postal why the surprise. Most people have been saying that they likely are doing something that is currently legal and using every legal loophole to get an advantage. Guess what, we're likely seeing an instantiation on the Wiggo TUE. But Sky to our best knowledge is breaking no rules like Postal, CSC, Astana, Phonak etc

We're in agreement that the system needs fixing. We're not in ageeement about being cool about how Sky operates. I don't like it, but its not up to me to tell them how to behave inside the rules. I think Froome (obviously no love between him and Wiggins) and Dumoulin and others have done a pretty good job in what they have publicly said. If Sky goes outside the rules, well then it's a free for all on lynching them.
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Re: Wiggins didn't break the rules - but do we consider him a doper anyway? [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Am I really reading that you said if you fabricate an condition but get wada to approve, all is well?

Wow just wow. Lawyer/doctor up to win your way to races! Yay as long as it's within the rules.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: Brooks Doughtie: Sep 27, 16 13:52
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