Hey Ed, I am on the same page as you as to what the "intent" likely was, however, I think we need to let the system do its thing and allow the athletes to use whatever is acceptable in the system or change the system, not ask the athletes to go above and beyond because we may perceive it as morally wrong, keeping in mind that our morals in North America, or some kid in Kenya, or Khazakstan, or for that matter a British Knight's morals may not coincide.

Also in that vein let's not forget the blood bags that Rebecca Twigg, ***** ******, Alexi Grewal, Steve Hegg etc all had injected to them for their medals at the LA Olympic games cycling. It's also widely viewed that the last double Olympic 5000m+10000m gold medalist (Munich + Montreal) was more than likely on blood bags as the Finns seemed to have this nicely figured out. But all those were legit medals. The athletes and docs used every legal means available to them.

Interesection of intent and moral judgement is problematic just because of cultural/societal differences. We need the system fixed wherever possible

The timing of Wiggins' TUEs make it very clear what the intent was.

I think you are having an argument with yourself. I have not said any of those things. Are there top pro triathletes who dope that have not been caught? I am sure of it. Do I believe that every single person on the course at Kona is doped up? Nope. I do not believe that. And I know I will not dope and that I will not accept doping by people I race against. One way to make doping less attractive and reduce it is by making those that we know are doping feel unwelcome at races. Some sociopaths don't care about that, but most do care. They dope because they want people to think highly of them. If doping leads to the opposite of that, it stops serving its purpose.

"Accepting" doping does the opposite. And it leads to only those willing to risk debilitating long-term health problems in exchange for being able s/b/r faster for a few years being able to achieve success in sport. It leads to kids who do not have the maturity to weigh those consequences against the benefits to doping.

So he was injected with a powerful corticosteroid with potentially dangerous side-effects just before the 2011 and 2012 Tours de France and the 2013 Giro. He applied for and received a TUE for them both times - so he followed the rules.

bitch stfu the shit i'm saying makes total sense and is perfectly in context if there was no point in what i was saying this thread you made wouldn't exist. bro just get over it end of thread slowtwitch didn't solve doping and top 15 are still full of epo congrats oh big suprise bradley wiggins did corticosteroids wow never woulda guessed oh shit sebastian kienle does epo, 70.3 champ works with doping cyclist, michael weiss uses peds, wow headline news extremely competitive people do things that make them win

It's important to note that it's *POSSIBLE* that he was injected with powerful corticosteroids much more regularly than "just before the 2011 & 2012 Tours de France and the 2013 Giro."

One huge thing to remember here is that one of the primary noted benefits/side-effects of the corticosteroids listed is that they assist with fat metabolism. Corticosteroids are only banned *IN COMPETITION.* Why this is the case is the topic of some debate, as it seems highly likely that abuse of glucocorticoids outside of competition is a huge problem. But that's a separate topic.

In any case, the larger point is that Wiggins might have been taking several of these medications of a very regular basis. One of his noted "transformations" was that he managed to lean down from being a relatively (for cycling) "large" track cyclist to a fantastic climber. Similar allegations dog the skinny-AF Froome.

In fact, the skeptics argue that the TUE for IC often stems from how long it takes to clear the system. I.e., they are really using this stuff for training, but they get a TUE so that in case it takes too long to clear the system, the are covered. I bring this up because - based on what several dopers-turned-whistleblower (like Landis) have indicated - it's unlikely that they were only taking this stuff during races.

It's obviously just speculation, but I'd be shocked if those TUEs represented the only times that Wiggins was taking these medications.

For the record, yes, I think Wiggins is a doper. Same with Froome. Same with the Williams sisters. And same with Bobridge and most of the other athletes implicated by Fancy Bears.

LOL... ok. Whatever helps you sleep at night. Might not be seeing you much on ST anymore with that outright accusation of Kienle.

alright bro me and you right now settle this like real men out on the green mono e mono i got a brand new 7 iron ready for some birdies bro mi banditos tienen la salsa verde es caliente bruhh yo soy platano breeuuuuwwhhh like dawg es no broma mi amigo... tu mejor correr rapido antes yo correr arriba en tu culo con mi picante get your taco ready bro your shit better b fuego cause i'm on my way to your location with 2 humvees full of la calor.. i got 4 anvils and barbells bro pumping iron for 24 hours at a time eating raw meat

Some people have ongoing conditions which require them to use banned substances ALL of the time. I'm a diabetic. Insulin is a banned substance. I need it to live. I inject it 4 times a day.

If you didn't allow a TUE for this, people like Steve Redgrave (legendary british rower) and Gary Hall Jnr would not be able to compete. It's hardly an advantage to have a medical condition which requires medication which happens to be banned just to live a somewhat 'normal' life. Although a "normal life" for a person with a chronic condition is somewhat different to someone who requires no medication to just live or be healthy.

I am sure there are other conditions that require people to use banned substances regularly or to use them if they have a flare up of their condition or the like.

Calling for a blanket ban on TUEs is stupid. They serve a purpose.

So what we are discussing is a failed system, which is why I have suggested removing the specifics of any athlete from the discussion. It avoids partisan emotion from those lacking emotional maturity.

My apologies, I typed that post in haste. I didn't mean for s blanket ban on TUEs but rather TUEs that could readily be abused (basically any steroid, HGH, etc). They can get the TUE for those but they can't compete while on them. In Wiggins case, he'd have treated whatever was ailing him but not been able to compete.