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Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again...
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Did a Duathlon this morning and my rear tire fell out and only stayed connected to my bike due to the chain...

Bike is a Cervelo P3 with new profile design 58/78's clinchers that I had installed at the LBS.

The race consists of 5 loops (extremely hilly course) with the last turn on the loop being sharp right and coming from downhill, thus I was braking on the way down... On my 5th loop my rear tire fell out of the track and was held on with the chain only. I pulled aside, re-attached and finished the race...

Other than clinchers being too loose, what other factors could have contributed to this? Could the downhill braking have caused the wheel to loosen? Has anyone ever seen this happen before? I re-tightened and re-adjusted the brakes and wheels when I got home and all seems OK, however wondering if there is another issue?
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Do you mean your wheel moved backwards and separated from where the axle/hub sit in the drop outs? I think that is what you mean, but for a second I thought you meant you had a tire roll off the rim?

Only thing I can think of is that the quick release wasn't fastened tight enough. Did you double check it after the LBS gave the bike back to you?

This is where learning how to wrench, just basic cursory wrench skills, can be invaluable. Not saying you don't have these skills, but I know triathletes who literally cannot take a rear wheel off their bike and have the shop do it. As far as trusting bike mechs with your life: I have found mistakes on my friends bikes over the years from something as simple as not putting the cassette spacer on b/f the cluster so it won't shift properly.....to newly installed cranks that came off within 10 mintues of a ride....to a stem/steerer clamp not even being remotely tight enough and the bars spinning on the first turn out of the parking lot.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Apr 26, 15 9:48
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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GoJohnnyGo wrote:
Did a Duathlon this morning and my rear tire fell out and only stayed connected to my bike due to the chain...

Bike is a Cervelo P3 with new profile design 58/78's clinchers that I had installed at the LBS.

The race consists of 5 loops (extremely hilly course) with the last turn on the loop being sharp right and coming from downhill, thus I was braking on the way down... On my 5th loop my rear tire fell out of the track and was held on with the chain only. I pulled aside, re-attached and finished the race...

Other than clinchers being too loose, what other factors could have contributed to this? Could the downhill braking have caused the wheel to loosen? Has anyone ever seen this happen before? I re-tightened and re-adjusted the brakes and wheels when I got home and all seems OK, however wondering if there is another issue?

A few possibilities.

The first - the simplest - is that they were simply installed poorly.

Another is that the tolerance of the rims is not very good. With carbon clinchers, achieving consistent bead seat widths is more difficult than with aluminum rims. On cheaper rims, there can be pretty significant variance. So you might have gotten a set with a "wider than normal" bead.

Yet another, which could be in concert with poor rim tolerance, is that the quality of the epoxy is not very good. Cheap resins tends to do poorly when they get hot. And carbon rims get REALLY hot under braking. If the resin isn't up to handling the heat stress, the rims can get soft. And, because of that, the pressure of the tube can actually cause the sidewalls to flex, popping the bead.

Given what you describe, my guess is that it's this. When Josh Poertner was at Zipp, they were able to recreate this phenomenon regularly. They would just pump up wheels, throw them in an oven, and watch the tires blow off the bead. Josh's theory was that this even applied in many cases to blowouts in the trunk of cars or in transition.

The thing about this is, it's very hard to recreate yourself in a controlled environment. So I don't know what to tell you to do from here.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Almost certainly the result of the quick release being too loose. If you are used to dealing only with vertical dropouts you may not be used to closing the QRs with enough force to secure them on horizontal drops of the type on the Cervelo.
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Wait... do you mean the wheel came loose or the tire came off the wheel?

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
GoJohnnyGo wrote:
Did a Duathlon this morning and my rear tire fell out and only stayed connected to my bike due to the chain...

Bike is a Cervelo P3 with new profile design 58/78's clinchers that I had installed at the LBS.

The race consists of 5 loops (extremely hilly course) with the last turn on the loop being sharp right and coming from downhill, thus I was braking on the way down... On my 5th loop my rear tire fell out of the track and was held on with the chain only. I pulled aside, re-attached and finished the race...

Other than clinchers being too loose, what other factors could have contributed to this? Could the downhill braking have caused the wheel to loosen? Has anyone ever seen this happen before? I re-tightened and re-adjusted the brakes and wheels when I got home and all seems OK, however wondering if there is another issue?


A few possibilities.

The first - the simplest - is that they were simply installed poorly.

Another is that the tolerance of the rims is not very good. With carbon clinchers, achieving consistent bead seat widths is more difficult than with aluminum rims. On cheaper rims, there can be pretty significant variance. So you might have gotten a set with a "wider than normal" bead.

Yet another, which could be in concert with poor rim tolerance, is that the quality of the epoxy is not very good. Cheap resins tends to do poorly when they get hot. And carbon rims get REALLY hot under braking. If the resin isn't up to handling the heat stress, the rims can get soft. And, because of that, the pressure of the tube can actually cause the sidewalls to flex, popping the bead.

Given what you describe, my guess is that it's this. When Josh Poertner was at Zipp, they were able to recreate this phenomenon regularly. They would just pump up wheels, throw them in an oven, and watch the tires blow off the bead. Josh's theory was that this even applied in many cases to blowouts in the trunk of cars or in transition.

The thing about this is, it's very hard to recreate yourself in a controlled environment. So I don't know what to tell you to do from here.

The tires survived.... below moved backwards and came off during the down hill braking? I pulled over, re-clinched and finished the race with the brake rubbing against the rim due to mis-alignment....


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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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GoJohnnyGo wrote:
The tires survived.... below moved backwards and came off during the down hill braking? I pulled over, re-clinched and finished the race with the brake rubbing against the rim due to mis-alignment....


Define "re-clinched". I think we may have a terminology problem.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
GoJohnnyGo wrote:

The tires survived.... below moved backwards and came off during the down hill braking? I pulled over, re-clinched and finished the race with the brake rubbing against the rim due to mis-alignment....



Define "re-clinched". I think we may have a terminology problem.

Re-clinched = re-attached wheel... yes, 7 years in the sport and I do not know all the lingo...
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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RowToTri wrote:
GoJohnnyGo wrote:

The tires survived.... below moved backwards and came off during the down hill braking? I pulled over, re-clinched and finished the race with the brake rubbing against the rim due to mis-alignment....



Define "re-clinched". I think we may have a terminology problem.

Yes, OP please clarify. The word "Clincher" is usually only used in reference to the type of tire, or rim that uses a "clincher" rather than "tubular" tire. The "quick-release" is what is used to hold the entire wheel on the bike. So when you say "my rear tire fell out of the track and was held on with the chain only", do you mean just the tire, or the entire wheel? And when you say "re-clinched", do you mean you tightened the quick release for the wheel, or re-installed your clincher tire?
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Ah... OK. "clincher" refers to a tire that is open at the bottom to accept a separate tube. The edges of the tire go under the lips of the open tire rim and the pressure of the tube holds it all in place. This is in contrast to a tubular tire where the tube is integrated with the tire and the whole thing is glued on to the rim.

So it seems the wheel itself came loose, maybe due to a loose quick-release skewer. This sounds pretty terrifying. I always check the tightness of my skewers after I get it back from a shop - It is too easy for someone to forget to tighten it properly and the consequences of a loose skewer are too high to just trust that some random mechanic did it right.

-------------
Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook
Last edited by: RowToTri: Apr 26, 15 10:27
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [helo guy] [ In reply to ]
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helo guy wrote:
RowToTri wrote:
GoJohnnyGo wrote:

The tires survived.... below moved backwards and came off during the down hill braking? I pulled over, re-clinched and finished the race with the brake rubbing against the rim due to mis-alignment....



Define "re-clinched". I think we may have a terminology problem.


Yes, OP please clarify. The word "Clincher" is usually only used in reference to the type of tire, or rim that uses a "clincher" rather than "tubular" tire. The "quick-release" is what is used to hold the entire wheel on the bike. So when you say "my rear tire fell out of the track and was held on with the chain only", do you mean just the tire, or the entire wheel? And when you say "re-clinched", do you mean you tightened the quick release for the wheel, or re-installed your clincher tire?

Sorry everyone - yes, I mean the entire wheel fell out (no issues with the tire to wheel connection); then I tightened the quick release for the wheel and finished the last .25 miles of the bike...
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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This reminds me as to why I don't sign up for duathlons. If you'd have signed up for a tri, you wouldn't have had this problem.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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GoJohnnyGo wrote:
Re-clinched = re-attached wheel... yes, 7 years in the sport and I do not know all the lingo...
No excuse. Go get this book, read it cover to cover, and practice doing wheel installation, tire changes, derailleur alignment, and brake adjustment until you can do it in the dark. Buy both screwdrivers that it takes to do these ultimately basic items of bike maintenance and setup.

The one dumb thing that I see people (not just triathletes) do is to align the rear skewer QR lever so that it sticks out backwards from the axle, because "it's more aero". That is retarded. If anything hooks on that lever, your wheel will be loose in the dropouts and could come out inadvertently, instantly negating any aero advantage you may have gained. So align the QR lever so it points between the chainstay and the seatstay (Johnny, go look that up in the book), and that way it is NOT coming undone unless you mean to undo the wheel.

Less is more.
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [Big Endian] [ In reply to ]
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Big Endian wrote:
GoJohnnyGo wrote:

Re-clinched = re-attached wheel... yes, 7 years in the sport and I do not know all the lingo...

No excuse. Go get this book, read it cover to cover, and practice doing wheel installation, tire changes, derailleur alignment, and brake adjustment until you can do it in the dark. Buy both screwdrivers that it takes to do these ultimately basic items of bike maintenance and setup.

The one dumb thing that I see people (not just triathletes) do is to align the rear skewer QR lever so that it sticks out backwards from the axle, because "it's more aero". That is retarded. If anything hooks on that lever, your wheel will be loose in the dropouts and could come out inadvertently, instantly negating any aero advantage you may have gained. So align the QR lever so it points between the chainstay and the seatstay (Johnny, go look that up in the book), and that way it is NOT coming undone unless you mean to undo the wheel.

Thank you, I ordered this from amazon...
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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I've found that my Cervelo P2 does need the rear skewer to be tighter than I had been keeping the skewers on my bikes for the past 20 years. Like you say, I braked a little harshly on a down hill and the rear wheel moved. It didn't come out, but became cockeyed so I was rolling rubbing the brake pad. Sometimes when I feel slow I look at my tires and wonder, what the hell, do I have a flat? This time I should have stopped and looked at the bike. Didn't see there really was an issue until I was packing the bike up after the race. I learned something valuable that day. Thankfully neither of us were hurt in these situations!

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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The P3 has horizontal dropouts, not closing the quick release tight enough combined with hard braking can cause the wheel to back out of the dropouts.

Horizontal dropout


Vertical dropout


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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [GoJohnnyGo] [ In reply to ]
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Do you ride a Computrainer for an indoor trainer?

When you unscrew the mounting clamp you can loosen the skewer at the same time if the bracket thingy sticks on the skewer and turns it. My wife expects her bike to take care of itself. She would never think to check the skewers. She landed on her head.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: Tell me what happened and how to make sure does not happen again... [gabbiev] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, they are horizontal and the quick release was what was included with my profile design 58, 78's and this was the 2nd time I've ridden them. The course was extremely hilly and this was my 5th turn on that loop and I braked every time down.

Is it possible the quick release is faulty? There is nothing noticeable as far as I can tell? I will look into a better quality release prior to my next race.

I'm trying nt to know what's wrong so I an fix it. It is possible the quick release was simply not tight enough. ...
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