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ITU Tactics at Gold Coast
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So i watched the race yesterday and I just don't understand what the Slovakian was thinking.

The guy trains with the Brownlee's and JB said post race that he was a great mate, but I can't for the life of me figure why he did what he did unless he thought that he could hold on for a place.

He destroys the field with the swim, leads JB and the two russian brothers in to T1 - they exit T1 with a 30 or so second lead which they hold and extend to T2 and then unsurprisingly JB drops the two that are still with him like a bad habit, holds on for the win whilst the two that worked their arses off on the bike for him get swallowed up.

They clearly shelled themselves on the bike for him and played in to his hands - why did they do it? did they think there best chance was to have such a lead exiting T2 that they could hold on to place?
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
why did they do it?

this is the essence of bike racing.

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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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When has Varga ever had a super strong run? Never in my recollection. So, once in the break, he has two choices, work hard and hope to build a big enough lead into T2 to have a chance to podium, or not work, let the chase pack catch them, and guarantee no place on the podium. If the chase pack was disorganized, or there was a crash in the chase pack, they could have entered T2 with a lead of 1-2 mins and that could have been enough. Didn't work this time.
And beyond that, he's a professional. Being in a 4 man break gave him and his sponsors a higher profile on TV. Same reason cyclists make suicidal breaks in bike races when they know they're on a hiding to nothing.
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Ya, a better strategy would be to sit up on the swim, hang with the 50 man pack in the bike, and then get 49th and 50th. You are a genius, maybe they are looking for a coach.. (-;

Look, when you are the top swimmers and can split the field, and have willing bikers to force the break with you, that is your only strategy. It could just as easily been a 2 minute gap, you just never know what is gong to happen. 2 minutes and many of the chasers will not catch you in the run, and you have gotten the best place possible for yourself, not to mention that it appears the guy you were working for won the race( which is a victory for yourself in team racing)
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I completely understand he essentially worked as a domestique, and it was a victory for his "team mate", I just wondered if that was his best strategy and prospect of a win
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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There also seems to be a more formal relation where it is in his interests t help the Brownlees. Maybe for cash, maybe for training with them, maybe just for foot rubs.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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Richard Varga, like most triathletes, will probably never win a race, and may only have a couple of podiums in his entire career. So why does he do triathlon? Because it is exhilarating fun. And his motivation is to train to be as good as he possibly can be. What we saw last week was Richard doing the best bike leg of his entire career and he was leading the race for 70 minutes. He proved he is one of the best bikers in ITU. And he even ran pretty decently to come 15th. For Richard it was a great performance. Alternatively, he could have done less on the swim, sat at the back of the bike pack and watch while Gwen Jorgensen wins...
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I thought it was an amazing swim - the conditions didn't appear to help and the field just split, it clearly works in JB's favour and the way he encouraged all of them to work was really impressive, and the ones that failed to bridge that gap in the swim just got stuffed. JB / AB obviously have a domestique in Varga that is of huge value as Graves clearly couldn't support him at the weekend. It was just tactically interesting - as was the way the wheel pretzeled.......
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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I just wondered if that was his best strategy and prospect of a win //

He cannot win, just like 90% of the other guys there. Most know they are fighting for a top 10 spot at best, don't think those like Varga have any delusions of grandeur. Even if he was not working for Jonny, his best tactic is to hammer the swim, work with a group as hard as he can on the bike, and hold on for "HIS" best possible place. If/when he ever gets his stand alone 10k down below 31, then he may be able to add some nuances to his race strategies, but until then he is quite limited in what will provide him with his best race..


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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Remember that Varga came 7th in Auckland as a result of the same general tactics. Calling him a domestique is selling him short.
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I only meant it in the sense that he doesn't have the run to hang with JB, not as some slight on his ability
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Andrewmc wrote:
I completely understand he essentially worked as a domestique, and it was a victory for his "team mate", I just wondered if that was his best strategy and prospect of a win

I don't think that's being a domestique at all. I just think the dude was playing the only card he can play. hammer the swim/bike, and work with whoever's going to work with you, and then hold on best you can. people used to bag on the big germans for hammering the bike at ironman, but really: was jurgen zack going to magically ride 'with the pack' and then uncork a 2:36? no, he's an uber-biker. so he uberbikes.

-mike

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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
Remember that Varga came 7th in Auckland as a result of the same general tactics. Calling him a domestique is selling him short.

Great point! Same thing could have happened at GC. If the chasers aren't as organized, if Gomez and his crew get with the front four, etc. etc. they could have come off with a bigger lead on the pack. It is his only logical choice.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]
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It's my unscientific opinion that by running with uber runners you'll boast your run legs, VO2 max, etc. for the next race. Varga's strategy was solid IMO.

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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Timtek] [ In reply to ]
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I would tend to unscientifically agree with you there.

I also think that there is a lot for him to gain, in terms of tactical awareness/development, by putting himself in the mix at the front regularly.
He's not going to learn much sitting in the pack.
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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Jonny Brownlee was working as hard as anyone on the bike and leading from the front as he always does. Vargas had an amazing ride, but just isn't quite strong enough on the run to hold on to JB.


If you want an example on an athlete letting others do all the work on the bike before blitzing them on the run, then just watch every women's ITU race this year.
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [The ORB] [ In reply to ]
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If that was a Gwen dig, I'd say you missed some from his last race - she did a few pulls. A few too many, I'd say. With the current dynamic, the only reason she should pull is to show she can. There is no Mola in the chase pack to hold off.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
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It's been answered already but Varga did absolutely the right thing. For a strong swim/biker with limited run ability then you've always got to push the swim and bike and hope to build a big enough buffer by T2 to hold off the faster runners. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't but it's his only option. His absolute worst option is to roll into T2 with 30-40 other guys.

I'd guess that Varga will almost certainly never podium let alone with win a WTS event but the bigger the buffer he can build at T2 then the better his chances of scoring a Top 10-15, winning more prize-money, gaining more world ranking points, more exposure etc etc.

I think Varga is a fantastic athlete but at the WTS level his run is not quite fast enough to be a serious podium contender however I love the way races.
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [HKoldtimer] [ In reply to ]
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People forget that Varga has had some impressive performances. He was sixth on the infamous Kitzbuhel mountain course in 2013, 7th at Stockholm in 2013 pursuing the Brownlee swim bike tactics, 9th and 7th in Auckland this in 2014 and 2015 respectively. On the Stockholm short course last year, he and the Brownlees got into a 3 man breakaway but his bike handling let him down and he fell off the back. The Brownlees got a one minute lead and Alistair said that had Richard not fallen, the gap would have been bigger. And he would have come very close to a podium (his run was only 45 seconds slower than the fastest run of the day).

So he is doing absolutely the right thing and those who dismissively label him the Brownlee's domestique are spectacularly missing the point.

The embarrassing question is why don't more people with good swim and bikes commit like Richard?
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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I think they try, don't they? Kanute has benefited from that approach. Zaferes tries, although I don't know if his cycling is strong enough. Same with the cycling for Schoeman. Maybe Lagerstrom could?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [FeketeBlob] [ In reply to ]
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FeketeBlob wrote:
People forget that Varga has had some impressive performances. He was sixth on the infamous Kitzbuhel mountain course in 2013, 7th at Stockholm in 2013 pursuing the Brownlee swim bike tactics, 9th and 7th in Auckland this in 2014 and 2015 respectively. On the Stockholm short course last year, he and the Brownlees got into a 3 man breakaway but his bike handling let him down and he fell off the back. The Brownlees got a one minute lead and Alistair said that had Richard not fallen, the gap would have been bigger. And he would have come very close to a podium (his run was only 45 seconds slower than the fastest run of the day).

So he is doing absolutely the right thing and those who dismissively label him the Brownlee's domestique are spectacularly missing the point.

The embarrassing question is why don't more people with good swim and bikes commit like Richard?

Exactly, and how many guys can swim and bike that fast anyway, even if he "only" runs 31:55 off the bike. Sh***t, 99.999% of all tri guys would kill to SBR as fast as Varga.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Varga is improving year after year. Johny wouldn't have won this way this year without him.

Since a lot of people are doing conclusion. Laurent Vidal did a recap on the race for us. Gold Coast was a special race where the place on the pontoon did play a lot with the current. Without the current, I'm quite sure that first pack would have been bigger.

Javier Gomez missing the first pack was a first.

http://www.trimes.org/...dal-lessons-learned/
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [alex_emetique] [ In reply to ]
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Great to read his perspective - very interesting! 49% Kiwi, right?

The one thing I question is his characterization of the U.S. talent ID program. I assume most of the current women at the WTS level are college recruitment program folks, not athletes moving up from juniors, U23, etc. Perhaps soon, but not yet. Right?

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [alex_emetique] [ In reply to ]
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alex_emetique wrote:
Varga is improving year after year. Johny wouldn't have won this way this year without him.
Since a lot of people are doing conclusion. Laurent Vidal did a recap on the race for us. Gold Coast was a special race where the place on the pontoon did play a lot with the current. Without the current, I'm quite sure that first pack would have been bigger.
Javier Gomez missing the first pack was a first.
http://www.trimes.org/...dal-lessons-learned/

Thanks Alex, as usual Laurent's analysis is first rate and obv he speaks from his extensive experience racing ITU for many years. Very cool to hear his insights!!!

One other question i was wondering if you could shed some light on: how fast would Varga swim a 1500 scm in the pool, vs what would the Brownlees, Gomez, etc do, vs Mola and Murray??? I've read various opinions on these guys' speeds and just wondered if you had seen any actual time trial results??? I've heard times around 15:30 cited for Gomez; would Varga be 20-30 sec faster, i.e., 15:00 to 15:10???

Cheers,

Eric


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: ITU Tactics at Gold Coast [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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FWIW I've heard he's gone sub 4 for 400LCM.

In terms of a 1k in a 50m pool, if you can hold 1.05-1.07 you will be front pack and sometimes in the Varga pack.

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