Hey, and I thought the "liberals" were supposed to be the ones who keep lowering the bar so that they can protect people's self-esteem from failure. Guess the shoe is on the other foot.

I'm trying to figure out what this guy has ever shown a marked competence in. Education, no. Business, no. Government, no. Management of a war, hell no. Oh, wait, using the influence of his father to basically pave his entire path in life, yes. From getting into Yale and HBS, to the Texas Air National Guard, to the oil business and government, he is the epitome of lucky sperm. Has there ever been a luckier?

And by the way, its only mediocrity or failure if you're poor. If you're of the rich, then its just varying levels of success.

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

Looks at though he's accomplished quite a bit. Ivy leaguer, governor, businessman and President. Why are you all jealous of this man?

Huh?

He's either failed at or been incredibly mediocre at every stop you've noted. If this is what you call accomplishment, I can't imagine what you call failure. Armageddon, perhaps.

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

I guess you don't know what it takes to be successful, do you?

Brian - "As I said...prove to me that any of these listed examples are indicative of a poor work ethic."

No you didn't. You tried to argue that his "achievements" proved he had a strong work ethic. The replies pointed out that his "achievements" or lack there of didn't prove his work ethic at all. So, we are back to: provide an example of his strong work ethic. So far... nothing.

Jealous? That is the funny f'in thing I've heard in awhile.

I didn't know jealous was a synonym for: despise, embarassed by, ashamed of, laughable, incompetent, liar, or dangerous.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Achievements just aren't handed to someone. You WORK to achieve them. I don't know how I can put it any simpler for you.

I forgot how moronic your arguments tend to be.



Nothing you have listed is evidence of a strong work ethic. I never claimed to be able to prove that he has a weak work ethic, and you never asked me to prove that, although that didn't stop you from making up that statement. If you really think things aren't ever handed to people who have no work ethic, you need to step into the real world. Many many people work their asses off and never get anywhere, and many many people never lift a finger and have wealth, responsibility and office handed to them.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I don't know, chief.

Like him or not, it would be a very big coincidence that all of his accomplishments were handed to him. Especially at the hands of voters who decide his fate...not his connections as you seem to insinuate.

It's wouldn't be coincidence,...it would be cause and effect. It's not coincidental that he went to Yale and so did his dad. He went to Yale because his dad did. It's not coincidence that he had investors for the Rangers that were all his dad's friends. They were his investors because they were his dad's friends.

Look, as I've said, I think any President works hard. I think some work more or less than others. Some rely more on a trusted support staff than others who want to personally manage every detail. Regardless of what you think of the Pres and his style of leadership, nothing you have offered proves that he is a hard worker. Those items can easily be explained as connections, luck, politics, etc. If you want to prove his work ethic, show something he actually worked hard to get.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

I respect the guy for wanting to get out of DC and keep it real.

It's not like he can ever throw the White House keys to Cheney and say "Dick, I'm off to Maui for 2 weeks 2 weeks-hold all my calls."

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Would you really want a C grade president?

The alternatives that this presents are not attractive. On the one hand he has a really strong work ethic and a C was the best he could do OR he does'nt have the work ethic and thats an equally unattractive trait in a president I would have thought.

As an Ivy League graduate, I can assure you that professors do just hand out grades.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I was under the distinct impression that Harvard's graduating class averages a 3.6/4.0. The other Ivies are about the same.

I always took this into account when I did recruiting for my investment bank - not to be too impressed with an Ivy 3.6 versus a UVa 3.8.

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"

In any event, C+ student or not, I don't put alot of value on grades as a gauge of whether someone works hard or not. In addition, I've known many idiots that have graduated with A's from well known schools and many geniuses who've graduated with C's from sub par universities.

Don't be so shallow and limited as to whether or not someone is successful or works hard based on grades. One day, if not now, you'll be working for someone who doesn't meet your definition of a "hard worker".

Don't get all snippy Brian. You're the one who said the President must be a hard worker because he graduated from an Ivy League school. Now you're saying you know idiots who get better grades than he did. You're the one who brought this example up as proof of his work ethic, not ken. You've gone from, "Professors never give away grades" to, "I don't put alot of value on grades...I've known many idiots who have graduated with A's.."

The point is, graduating from Yale and Harvard, being a minority owner in a poor baseball franchise, running several failed or failing businesses (one of which was under SEC investigation soon after he left), and being popular and connected enough to get elected are simply not evidence of work ethic necessarily.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

As I've alluded to before, you and others have strange definitions of work ethic. Getting into and Ivy, surviving and graduating, going onto getting an MBA from an ivy and becoming a successful businessman and plitician are all accomplishments that don't just come to someone without a strong ethic. In addition, being a father, husband and dedicated christian and athlete furthers my point.

You all seem to think that taking the office to Crawford constitutes a vacation. Let me assure you, being President, father, businessman and Governor doesn't come from sitting around and being a slacker.

  
As an Ivy League graduate, I can assure you that professors do just hand out grades.

Ken Lehner

Ken ... you mean I've been doing it all wrong? =)

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

Please, there is no correlation between getting an MBA/undergrad degree from an Ivy league and having a strong work ethic. I know plenty of people with Ivy league educations that the hardest part was simpy filling out the application for the school. There are easy classes at every school in the country.

As for being a successful businessman, well, the facts simply do not support that statement as every organization he has been involved with as a private citizen has not done very well.

If winning elections is the sole metric of success for a politician, then yes, he has been successful in that arena. If a legacy is the metric, then that remains an open question.

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f/k/a mclamb6

Give it a rest Brian. You are simply wrong. You can graduate from Harvard and Yale without having a good work ethic. People who graduated from Ivy League schools have told you so in this thread. The President was not a very succesful businessman, but even if he had run successful companies, it doesn't mean he worked hard. And you make me laugh out loud if you think work ethic is a prerequisite to being a politician. In addition, there are plenty of lazy fathers, husbands, athletes, and Christians. None of it furthers your point, no matter how many times to tell yourself that it does.

"You all seem to think that taking the office to Crawford constitutes a vacation. Let me assure you, being President, father, businessman and Governor doesn't come from sitting around and being a slacker."

Let me recommend to you that you read the rest of the thread where I said that the President is not vacationing like normal people vaction, and where I said, several times now, that I think Presidents in general work fairly hard. Then let me recommend that you find some example of something President Bush has worked hard to accomplish, instead of clinging to your broken examples which have all been debunked.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Ken, that was then, this is now. There has been tremendous grade inflation over the years. GPAs are much higher.

Besides, Bush had better grades than Kerry, and we know he is a genius. Also, Gore flunked out of divinity school, and he is a genius too.

  
We sure do argue some silly stuff herre in the LR (over in the tri forum too).

Honestly, how would ANY of us know whether Bush has a good work ethic or not? How could we ever prove it one way or another?

Does anyone really believe that Bush being in Texas means he's working less hard than if he were in DC? How hard is it to communicate over that distance with today's technology? How could we detect when he's working hard and when he's not (other than when he's riding with Lance, etc)?

The aspect of politicians I don't get is how commonplace and accepted it is to miss a large number, possibly even the majority, amount of "votes" in congress (or perhaps just state congress). Shouldn't they be there for all the votes? Isn't that what an elected official does?

I dunno.

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-- Every morning brings opportunity;
Each evening offers judgement. --

"Besides, Bush had better grades than Kerry, and we know he is a genius. Also, Gore flunked out of divinity school, and he is a genius too."

Let's face it, none of these guys were genius students. Probably none of them are actual geniuses either. Ironically, Pres Clinton was a Rhodes scholar, and that actually does mean something academically. Also, both he and Hillary were graduates of Ivy League schools, as well as succesful politicians, parents, and Christians. I guess by Brian's definition, they must have had tremendous work ethic. The only thing missing is a mediocre sports franchise.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

"The Clintons turned vacations into a political exercise; let's poll and see where people think we should go," presidential historian Stephen Hess said.

The politics of presidential vacations was certainly taken to new heights when Dick Morris took a poll for Bill Clinton. The Clinton chief political adviser actually asked Americans where the president should rest up.

It revealed the obvious (as most polls do): that Americans would see another Clinton trip to Martha's Vineyard as too elitist. Instead, the First Family went to Jackson Hole, Wyo., where the president was photographed riding a horse and wearing a blue denim shirt, with a tan cowboy hat fitted squarely on his head, looking more Teddy Roosevelt than Franklin.

"The Clintons were in a unique position that few of our president's have been in. They weren't rich, they had to rely on the goodwill of strangers for their vacations, Hess continued.

Oh Brother!

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

I don't think anyone has suggested that Clinton didn't have a terrific work ethic, at least in the Whitehouse.

At George Washington University he pissed off his classmates because he would party like crazy (yes, he did inhale, and regularly), not study and still smoke every test. Definite genius, no question.

For all of his failings, Clinton was admirable for not only his work ethic and intelligence, but for the fact he came from very modest beginnings to elevate himself. That's a bit more of an achievement than starting out on third base, and walking backwards to home plate.

And for what it's worth, I always enjoyed the story of how he was simultaneously debating Mideast peace with Yitzhak Rabin at 1 am, while eating a slice of pizza and being serviced by Monica. What a guy.

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"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security" - Benjamin Franklin
"Don't you see the rest of the country looks upon New York like we're left-wing, communist, Jewish, homosexual pornographers? I think of us that way sometimes and I live here." - Alvy Singer, "Annie Hall"