Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Derf] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Recall that this is an apex workout. One that you've likely spent 8ish weeks working towards.

Part 2: yes, and the crew normally doesn't like me very much when it's over. :) I tend to get quotes like "by the second to last interval I was hating you a lot" in the subjective feedback section.

Yeah, thus there is still an "art" to coaching. <shrugs>

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
  
I think nobody so far said that polarized training was not a good idea.
Some people said that there is more ways from A to B, some people pointed out that Hr might not be the best way to conduct this study. Coaches and scientists need to ask questions.
But nobody said so far that what what is said here is not very valuable.
Btw Dr Skipa and Dr Smith who I quoted are coaches and phd sport scientists and they would advocate a bit of a mix.
Again, I am not saying this is the only way,

I do not think its a good idea to try to create boundaries between coaches ,scientists, and people that are knowledgeable ,its good to share experiences.and there is a lot of good brain food in this discussion.
Everybody will see thing from different angles as all 3 sides work in a different environment. Diversity is good.

Halvard wrote:
pk wrote:
Halvard
I think it would be better not to take this thread to personal
you made some very good contributions, but I think you are now arguing a bit too much like a scientolgy person that tries to convert everybody to your own thinking. I am not saying you dodnt have a case for it)

Darren Smith once made this comment on twitter that involved polarized training.
Make things interesting: evoke diff internal loads/speeds/torque/RFD incl tech & tactical-whammo!
In that discussion which included dr skib

And to be fair what tools you use for each system as bjorn pointed out is not really relevant. I totally agree that triathletes have a tendency to make thinks to complicated, but it is not a case that for any training philosophy certain tools are needed ,

Bjorn I think in the triathlete study the guys that trained less in the race zone seemed to perform better and seemed to perform better in the run. I am not quite sure how that works out in a study that has 9 participants ranging from 58 - 90 min Ironman swimmer, but that was the result if I am not wrong.


Nothing personal here, but I do think it is ok to state facts when someone is trying to play the experience card. Many on ST have a lot of experience from a broad specter of sports even though they do not put coach in their signature.

I find it interesting that I get PMs from people telling me that they do not want to ask questions because of comments from coaches. I think that is sad.


When it comes to training tools I am not saying that you should not use a PM. It was more in reference to the "train by power" approach vs training by effort. Of course you can use a PM. I guess to be totally sure you are hitting the zones, you should use a lactate meter since it is more accurate than HR, or even better a combination of all three :-)
I guess I should be better and more accurate in my statements.
Last edited by: pk: Jan 27, 14 14:04
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Touche!

I'd probably be writing something about getting a call from the front desk that my cardiovascular system has just been placed in the lost and found bin. :)

No doubt there's an art to coaching, and a lot of wisdom to having and external set of eyeballs look over one's training (even as a coach).

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
> We can objectively track the acute stress to the aerobic system but can only subjectively infer such observations about the physical body.

The various stress scores have been purported to encompass the full physiology of training stress, not just "acute stress to the aerobic system." E.g. acute training stress scores have been shown to correlate to mood questionnaires, etc.

That said every athlete has different IR model parameters, and, right now, there's no easy way to estimate those parameters. So it's up to a coach to gauge-and-adjust in an ad-hoc way.

But that might change in the future.....so you could have hard data about whether your a body better responds to polarized training or a shit-ton of FTP. Until then we just argue.

None of that makes coaches go way. It just gives them different tools.
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [trail] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i look at it as such....

athlete A and B - both have critical paces of about 5:40

give athlete A some time at 540 and i don't have him run for 2 days because it's smashed him so bad (physically)

give athlete B the same thing and I can have him run an hour the next day easy no problem

(these are real examples :)

36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
Garmin Glycogen Use App | Garmin Fat Use App
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [MarkyV] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 
>(these are real examples :)[/quote]
Exactly. But my point is that in TSS, etc, there are coefficients that can reflect these differences so that when athlete A does the workout, he accumulates much more acute stress than athlete B. Vs. the one-size-fits-all TSS. (or other score for running). So you have some objective justification for what you assess personally. It's just that fitting those parameters well for each athlete is an unsolved problem in terms of day-to-day training.
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
Quick question on how the skiers train in the off season. Steve mentioned cycling, rollers and other forms of cross training.

Do they do higher intensity on all forms of cross training ? Do they do hard cycling and hard roller sessions and....
Or do they for example, all the high stuff (20%) on the bike and easy stuff on the rollers.

I can imagine the perfect canadian polarized winter plan....all the hard stuff (20%) on the bike trainer and all the easy stuff doing slower runs on these wonderful slow snow covered roads. A 10 hr week would have say 3 tough "red" sessions on the bike and lots of "easy running"

Of course this would shift as we thaw out.

Just to show that this kind of training is not new and has been successful for a long time, enjoy this video from 1991 or 1992 about Vegard Ulvang and his training (it is in English).
It is a gem :-)
http://vimeo.com/31446158
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To those with a little more knowledge of lactate testing, do you find that in already well trained individuals the heart rate at LT and LTP is fairly stable?

If I am reading the above example correctly her graph has shifted to the right so to speak, but the LT and LTP are approximately the same HR give a beat or 2.

Is this generally the case?
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Typically the curve just shifts right.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Marcell_S wrote:
To those with a little more knowledge of lactate testing, do you find that in already well trained individuals the heart rate at LT and LTP is fairly stable?

If I am reading the above example correctly her graph has shifted to the right so to speak, but the LT and LTP are approximately the same HR give a beat or 2.

Is this generally the case?

More often then not HR is very similar. Obviously there are many variables that influence that though.

With someone who is gaining a lot of fitness, ie. going from untrained to trained, we tend to see a large variance in HR change. Typically this would be a higher HR.
In someone who was primarily anaerobically trained and has undergone a large amount of aerobic training, HR tends to come down at threshold.

Typically, anyway

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Cool thanks.

I was looking at some old testing (about 2 years) and for the same HR (around 75% MHR, around LTP) I was putting about about 40-50w less than I was today. I was fairly fit back then but clearly I have got fitter!
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Not necessarily a reply to Marcell_S, but the more I think about XC Ski racers and training, it seems that explosive strength workouts are a huge part of their total training. I've been in some XC circuit classes and was crying like a baby less than halfway through. How does this training fit into this discussion of polarized training? Is this training represented in the 80/20 low/high graphs that are presented? Or are the graphs just 'doing the sport' and not weight/resistance training?
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AKCrafty wrote:
Not necessarily a reply to Marcell_S, but the more I think about XC Ski racers and training, it seems that explosive strength workouts are a huge part of their total training. I've been in some XC circuit classes and was crying like a baby less than halfway through. How does this training fit into this discussion of polarized training? Is this training represented in the 80/20 low/high graphs that are presented? Or are the graphs just 'doing the sport' and not weight/resistance training?

Strength / Power / Anaerobic domains not included in the previous recommendations.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [AKCrafty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
AKCrafty wrote:
Not necessarily a reply to Marcell_S, but the more I think about XC Ski racers and training, it seems that explosive strength workouts are a huge part of their total training. I've been in some XC circuit classes and was crying like a baby less than halfway through. How does this training fit into this discussion of polarized training? Is this training represented in the 80/20 low/high graphs that are presented? Or are the graphs just 'doing the sport' and not weight/resistance training?


Cross country skiers train strength 2-3 times a week off season and at least once a week during the season.
While they have some explosive strength, most of the strength training is ski specific and endurance focused.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRXB5vEOmC8

The strength trying is on top of all the endurance training. Cross country skiing is not CrossFit ;-)
Last edited by: Halvard: Jan 28, 14 18:42
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
 So how did I do in January? Not bad according to this.

I have start using the training diary from Olympiatoppen https://www.olt-dagbok.net/. It fits this kind of training better than Trainingpeaks.
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Judging by todays medals this Norwegian training formula must still be working ;)
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Bigpikle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
People can talk about research and theory till the lights go off but at the end of the day, real life performance trumps all!
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Bigpikle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bigpikle wrote:
Judging by todays medals this Norwegian training formula must still be working ;)

With two more gold today, a silver and a bronze (and two 4th) in endurance competitions the Norwegians have to do something right.
Also the Swedes train the same way, so does the winner of the 30k. So overall it looks like the polarized model has got a good start of the games ;-)
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:
Bigpikle wrote:
Judging by todays medals this Norwegian training formula must still be working ;)


With two more gold today, a silver and a bronze (and two 4th) in endurance competitions the Norwegians have to do something right.
Also the Swedes train the same way, so does the winner of the 30k. So overall it looks like the polarized model has got a good start of the games ;-)


What other sports do Norwegians dominate in ?
Is it really the polarized training model that makes Norwegian's dominate or is it the system as a whole, the development process, the facilities.....?
I suspect the latter

I wonder how many top triathletes are using a polarized model ? Or how many pro cycling teams ?

I don't mean this to contradict you, I am sincerely curious.
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I keep seeing at times 4 Norwegian athletes on many of the result lists. So do Winter Olympics have a bigger per country allowance, I know in summer Olympics I think it's a quota of 3 per country. Wondered why the difference.

------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
Halvard wrote:
Bigpikle wrote:
Judging by todays medals this Norwegian training formula must still be working ;)


With two more gold today, a silver and a bronze (and two 4th) in endurance competitions the Norwegians have to do something right.
Also the Swedes train the same way, so does the winner of the 30k. So overall it looks like the polarized model has got a good start of the games ;-)


What other sports do Norwegians dominate in ?
Is it really the polarized training model that makes Norwegian's dominate or is it the system as a whole, the development process, the facilities.....?
I suspect the latter

I wonder how many top triathletes are using a polarized model ? Or how many pro cycling teams ?

I don't mean this to contradict you, I am sincerely curious.
Marc,

For the first question, I think you're right that it's the system. The Norse put a huge amount of resources and talent into their system-->results follow. The training is just 1 part. Other countries/cultures prioritize to varying degrees, and it shows.

Your 2nd question: How many of the top endurance athletes use a "polarized" model? It very much depends on how you define polarized, so what does that mean to you? (I'm curious) Loosely, I think it'd be TONS of easy volume and periodic (5-20%) specifically-focused (but changing with the season and individual form) hard workouts. Anybody know a pro triathlete around here? :-) -J

----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [karlaj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
karlaj wrote:
marcag wrote:
Halvard wrote:
Bigpikle wrote:
Judging by todays medals this Norwegian training formula must still be working ;)


With two more gold today, a silver and a bronze (and two 4th) in endurance competitions the Norwegians have to do something right.
Also the Swedes train the same way, so does the winner of the 30k. So overall it looks like the polarized model has got a good start of the games ;-)



What other sports do Norwegians dominate in ?
Is it really the polarized training model that makes Norwegian's dominate or is it the system as a whole, the development process, the facilities.....?
I suspect the latter

I wonder how many top triathletes are using a polarized model ? Or how many pro cycling teams ?

I don't mean this to contradict you, I am sincerely curious.

Marc,

For the first question, I think you're right that it's the system. The Norse put a huge amount of resources and talent into their system-->results follow. The training is just 1 part. Other countries/cultures prioritize to varying degrees, and it shows.

Your 2nd question: How many of the top endurance athletes use a "polarized" model? It very much depends on how you define polarized, so what does that mean to you? (I'm curious) Loosely, I think it'd be TONS of easy volume and periodic (5-20%) specifically-focused (but changing with the season and individual form) hard workouts. Anybody know a pro triathlete around here? :-) -J


Resources do not help if you do not train right. It is not just the Norwegians training like this. The Swedes do it and the winner of the 30k Dario Cologna does it. The polarized model is supported by science not just results. That is why Stephen Seiler got invited to speak at a ITU conference. As a scientist, he goes where the data takes him.

By the way, Russia has used a lot of money and resources to prepare for these games, but their results has been quite bad, so just throwing money at athletes will not get them faster.


And as a Norwegian I have to write about good results from my own country :-)
Is not that the Olympic spirit ;-)
Last edited by: Halvard: Feb 11, 14 10:49
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [karlaj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
karlaj wrote:
Your 2nd question: How many of the top endurance athletes use a "polarized" model? It very much depends on how you define polarized, so what does that mean to you? (I'm curious) Loosely, I think it'd be TONS of easy volume and periodic (5-20%) specifically-focused (but changing with the season and individual form) hard workouts. Anybody know a pro triathlete around here? :-) -J

If I understood the talk, it's at the two extremes...either very low (below 2mmol lactate) or quite high (above 4mmol).
So it seems Z1/Z2 & Z5. No z3/z4. Or in power terms < 7580% FTP and > 105% of FTP.
Something like 8 sessions of the first, 2 sessions of the later.
According to the talk, it seems to be year round.
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [Halvard] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Halvard wrote:

Resources do not help if you do not train right. It is not just the Norwegians training like this. The Swedes do it and the winner of the 30k Dario Cologna does it. The polarized model is supported by science not just results. That is why Stephen Seiler got invited to speak at a ITU conference. As a scientist, he goes where the data takes him.

But I wonder of the applicability to our sport
How many of the top 20 triathletes in the world do you believe train like this ?

Will you, as a triathlete keep your "yellow area" according to those 3 zones at a minimum all year long ?

Halvard wrote:
And as a Norwegian I have to write about good results from my own country :-)
Is not that the Olympic spirit ;-)

Wanna talk about amazing French Canadian mogul skiers ?
Dominating skaters ?
Snowboarders ?

Why do we dominate ? And they don't polarize :-)
Quote Reply
Re: Polarized Training - Interesting Lecture Video [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag wrote:
Wanna talk about amazing French Canadian mogul skiers ?
Dominating skaters ?
Snowboarders ?

Why do we dominate ? And they don't polarize :-)

Because those aren't endurance sports. ;-) -J

----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne
Quote Reply

Prev Next