Thank you, Jordan, for your thoughts. Best of luck this season.

Rappstar,

One topic I missed in your message (even it was not the original question): do you think Lance will have any impact on the business you're part of (Slowtwitch): more traffic, ad sales, partnerships, etc?

Another thing was your view on why many of your readers have (as you write) a double standard regarding Lance and Weiss.

You point it out, and you say you have trouble with that, so you must wonder why many people don't. Ignorance? Lack of a sense of fairness?

I ask because I'm always curious about why people do the things they do (especially if they seem incoherent), and you must know the community here pretty well.

The Lance discussion, of which I'm an avid reader, reminds me of an old quote by Oliver Wendell Holmes: "The young man knows the rules but the old man knows the exceptions".

Thanks!

Nuno

Am I really the only one who thought this was funny?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

lol - I'm glad I'm not the only one who caught that. I giggled like a 5th grader!

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

Wait, that mofo has EPO in his tires?

I'm with Jordan...you asked for his opinion and it spiralled pretty typically before he chimed in! I was waiting to hear what Jordan had to say before posting...

- On Race Strategy: I think it is a question that can't be answered yet. Monty put it pretty well. Lance swims better than Chris Lieto for example. The dynamic at the front 'may' change as Monty said with media, etc. I was surprised at how quickly one pro...with top notch equipment and position...rode in Kona on a seemingly low watts, but he was near Crowie and the media. Clearly he brings to the game a good swim, a great bike, and a pretty dang good run. I don't think that his 1:22 whatever is representative of what he's capable of running. Kona showed that a lot of guys who simply rode too hard and either finished well off what they 'thought' they would or DNF'd. So, I think that the answer to your race strategy question is that it will be shown as we go...Panama, then 70.3 Texas, the Nice.

- On Sponsorship: I've been thinking more about this lately...not in regards to Lance and his involvement though. Lance has, over the years, assembled a very good team and they have build the Lance/Livestrong brand to be huge. He has a whole team with him. Most pros are lucky to have a couple of allies on the sponsorship front. But anyone who pays attention to Lance (or Macca) can see how much they move around and travel. They can see how much they work with sponsors and how professional they treat this aspect of their job. Maybe that came 'after' they made it big. But, in regards to sponsorship, he puts in a LOT of work even with the fact that he also has a lot of people helping him put in that work. At this point, he has to since there is so much of it. So, having said that I think that his involvement will bring more visibility to the sport and possibly more opportunities for some pros. Personally, having been in the sport since 89, I hear more people mention triathlon now than ever...even JohnDoe off the street. Now more will likely hear of an mention triathlon. For those pros at the front or around Lance, getting their sponsors out there will be 'easier'. But, that still only reaches the triathlon community to some degree. I think that where Lance could help a shift is in the non-endemic (as we say) sponsors. I don't know how many pros that may affect or which ones if might affect, but it might help some. The question is to whether or not some of us will put in the work needed to land those sponsors or if somehow these companies will be a bit more interested in sponsoring pros. There are a lot of what-ifs. Could Lance's re-entry into triathlon help with sponsors...absolutely. How many and which pros will help...i have no idea. I do know that they way Lance approaches all things sport related appears to be very professional. And, that is something that a lot of us pros could learn from.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

summitt wrote:

Does it really matter what Rappstar or Dan think about Lance Armstrong? You have a guy that is internationally know and who has won the TDF 7 freakin times and you care what Rappstar thinks.

Well one is a respected athlete of good standing who by all accounts is a personable, pleasant guy and the other is Armstrong.

I laughed, too. The thought of 188 people all farting at the same time was just too much. Sorry -- I'm still stuck in the 6th grade.

Ive gotten flack for being one saying Lance/WTC shouldnt be doing this, for a myriad of reasons, chief of which you mentioned in your post so I wont belabor. I never weighed in on Weiss here publicly, but I think the reason you see a double standard is the pure celebrity of Lance. As you said, Lance is his own industry, and a ton of people here are supporters of that industry. WTC sees this as a way to grow their business, and so I'm sure they have safeguards in place, that whatever deal they have with Lance is probably null and void if he gets banned. But they figure he's worth the risk, because they can say "Hey, he got suspended but it was for stuff from long before he got to us".

I guess my question is at least in the short term, is do you think people you meet on planes will now instead of asking "Did you race the race they show on TV?" to "Did you race Lance?" and how do you feel about that?

As for the business side, I think you're spot on. He doesn't share very many primary sponsors with the sport itself, he has his own package and so it's not as if he's going to bring direct benefit to the pros around him. Now, if a given pro beats him, then yes, that probably raises their status a bit, and could help whoever does it, especially if they run him down after a bike lead. There will certainly be a benefit to WTCs brand in short term, and I think any races he does and gives enough notice for people to attend will see big booms in attendance and additional business, which will be good for the races and the towns, but as you said there are likely going to be negatives with those positives.

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.

I think the double standard might be people's views of the two sports. In cycling, many assume that doping is the norm, and his conduct (true or not) was similar to other cyclists.

I think in the same way many of us view clean as the norm in our sport of triathlon. The assumption is that, regardless of his past, Lance is going to race triathlon clean.

I think some of the animosity towards Weiss may come from people thinking (true or not) he raced triathlons doped.

To sum it up, sort of a "whatever, as long as you don't bring that crap to our sport" view.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Jordan,

Thanks for the response. One of the best posts I've read on ST in a long time. You don't get many shades of gray in discussions about LA.

From my point of view as an long-time AGer, I was an Ironman triathlete during LA's cycling reign. I remember when nearly every triathlete I met wore a yellow bracelet. I remember triathletes gathered around TVs in Lake Placid watching LA in the tour. I remember lots of LA related bikes and gear at triathlons. I think LA's success in cycling caused the tide to rise in triathlon as well. I'm cautious in predicting that his jump into IM triathlon will cause the triathlon tide to rise much more. Of course, those of us who are doing triathlons now think it is a huge deal, at least this season, but I don't know how much more serious interest it is going to generate from the general public or sponsors who aren't already involved in triathlon.

I can't wait to see Lance dominate and shut down the critics.

I'm not much of a LA fan and really wish he did direct money to research, but of course the research boat rises. Lots of patients, friends and relatives will donate money to all sorts of cancer charities because of the awareness he brings, and more directly he has lobbied in congress for more research funds.

As far as Pros not being impacted (to Rapp), look at Tiger, pro purses and sponsership deals went way way up due to his publicity. If nothing else precedent has been set. Now just like Track and a lot of other sports Triathletes can get appearance fees to show up at a race. I'm sure thats happened to a minor degree in the past, but LA puts it on a whole new level, it'll take some time to trickle down, but if Tri gets more TV time and AD buys it'll happen.

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Styrrell

Thats the question I guess: can this be the step that puts triathlon on TV more and take the next step in revenue? With Tiger and golf it was different because the tourneys were already on TV. Easy to invest in a known quantity thats growing. Triathlon on TV is an unknown quantity for the most part and how will it play live, even with Lance in it? Honestly, if he qualifies, I wont be the least bit surprised to see NBC Sports Network run the whole day live.

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.

Jordan, based on what you know of WTC, do you think it is inside the realm of possibility that LA's presence will bring in more serious prize purses for big races and for Kona?

He wont have the same success in tri but look what he did for Cycling. The Lance Chronicles were basically a cable reality show about his bike fitting.

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Styrrell

I'm sure Lance will have a positive impact on Slowtwitch as a business. That video of Lance training in Kona a while back is the highest viewed article on our site, ever. Like 50,000+ page views.

And I expect that exclusive articles, like Dan's interview with Lance regarding his bike fit, will also garner a lot of views. That's the sort of thing that (I think) you are only likely to read here, because Dan and Lance have a long history. And, ultimately, I expect Lance will bring more people into the triathlon community, and as a community driven site, I am sure that will also benefit Slowtwitch.

As far as the black-and-white nature of people's views, I think there are a lot of factors, but I think it generally comes down to first impressions. The drama of Lance's comeback precedes the doping issue. In Michael's case, the doping issue preceded his success in triathlon. I think people are biased towards their first impressions, which is supported by a lot of the research on brain function; a good read in Michael Shermer's "The Believing Brain." Basically, we - humans - believe something and *then* seek evidence to support it, which of course runs counter to how most people would say they think or want to believe they think. Applying that to this scenario is obviously just my attempt at amateur psychology, but I think Lance became known as a hero, so people look for evidence to support that, despite evidence to the contrary. And, in Michael's case, I think he came in with the cloud/suspicion of doping, so people - some people - thought of him as a doper and jumped on that evidence. I think that sort of all-or-nothing bias is natural. Danny Kahneman's great book, "Thinking, Fast and Slow" talks about how people group things that aren't necessarily related together. Something that is seen as positive is also generally seen as low risk, and something that is a negative is also seen as high risk. And a change in perception of one will usually swing the other. In other words, Lance can't have doped because he beat cancer and does great work for charity. Or, on the flipside, his charity work is all a sham and a media stunt because he's a doper. It's very hard for our brains to reconcile the fact that he might do incredible work for charity (a good thing) and also have taken drugs (a bad thing). But human nature isn't really like that. At least, not in my experience. Bernie Maddoff was, by all accounts, incredibly faithful to his wife. But he scammed people out of billions. That sort of thing, I think, makes people uncomfortable. People would prefer that he was *all* bad. And, in the case of Lance, I think people want to assume that he's all good. It just makes it easier.

That's my own take on it, based off the thoughts of some people will infinitely more experience and insight into this sort of thing than I have.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Well, maybe now the jabs on this forum will be split 50/50 between, "Jordan is afraid to race Kona," and "Jordan is afraid to race Lance." So that variety should be a nice change...

In all seriousness, given that at least this year, our schedules don't overlap, I'd just say, "I haven't yet done a race that Lance has also done. There are a lot of races, and we've just never been at the same race." My priority is supporting my family, supporting my sponsors, and doing the best job that I can as an athlete at the races I decide to do. If, at some point, that necessitates my racing Lance, I'll do it. But I have no interest in doing it for the sake of doing it, just as I have no interest in doing Kona for the sake of doing it. My life will not be more complete as a result of racing Lance...

Oh, and as a random aside to reply to an earlier post in this thread, Lance actually did make a brief but positive comment on Twitter about Dirk Bockel joining Leopard-Trek.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I don't think so. I just don't see that it's really relevant. The story is "Lance is racing triathlon," not "Lance is racing triathlon and trying to win big bucks." Especially coming from cycling, where prize money is almost irrelevant, I doubt Lance cares much about prize money. And, in that sense, I agree with Brandon's sentiments that pro athletes could learn a lot from Lance. There is a lot more (potential) money to be made off the race course - and in sponsorship - than there is in prize money.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Thanks for your thoughtful reply.

And you're right, Slowtwitch had by far the best - most sport specific and relevant - editorial coverage of this story, through Dan Empfield's articles.

I too am a big fan of Kahneman - I also find his TED talks brilliant (and a good starting point). His reasoning definitely makes sense in this case.

Nuno

I do want to say, hand it to the guy he is going about this all the right way. Tying LiveStrong to it, qualifying etc...there is no Lance Wild card (YET).

This said, curious what all of ST will think if/when Lance falls backwards down the fold during back half of run at IM-France.

Couple of items to remember here:

First, he's 41 this year. While a genetic freak and mentally probably the toughest SOB in endurance sport, but with age comes factors needing consideration
Second, he has injuries. Plantar Fascititis is not child's play. Serious, debilitating stuff it can be. Also, apparently his back is at issue after so many miles hunched over (look at him on a bike)
Third, there is SERIOUS talent in the pro Ironman ranks. Seriously talented athletes who run 2:40 (Jacobs, Crowie, etc.)

Last, too bad Chrissie ain't racing-:)

For sure, in the end, if anything just like his riding days this sure is going to be fun to watch!!

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@rhyspencer

so now is: Jordan is afraid to race Lance in Kona...

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

I hope the implication here is that the only dollars that matter are the ones that go directly toward funding cancer research.

I can tell you - first person - that the research, med, and protocol side of it is surely one large facet of dealing with cancer. But don't bring the argument to ST doorstep that in the absence of granting pure direct research dollars that Livestrong doesn't do good. I can think of a ton of other things Livestrong brings - and that my family has used.

Not the least of which Lance's high-profile advocacy itself probably makes the direct research dollars boat rise, too. There was a flood of new funding at the one cancer center I know directly around the same time Livestrong was at it's hyped best, and Lance was winning tours. I can't point at it and say Livestrong was the causal, but I can't say it wasn't one of many. It sure as hell doesn't hurt.

ETA: didn't mean to drag the post off topic. I'm glad that Lance is doing Tris, and in IM. I think it's fantastic, and that there will be doors that open for many pros, AGers, races, RD's, and industry folk that no one can imagine yet, and will become apparent over time. As Jordan pointed out, Lance is on a different planet economically. At a time when tri as a niche sport doesn't welcome a titan that has the chance to take the entire tri landscape up a notch - I'm not sure why it isn't a good thing.

ETA2: I'd bet that retailers, coaching, and gear manufacturers are expecting some kind of bump. He just brings that many more eyes, and some percentage of them will spend money. It can't hurt, IMO. I'd love to hear coaches, retailers, and manufacturers chime in.

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- I do all my own stunts

I don't have much to add to this thread as pretty well everything has been said.

However, if nothing else, I'd love to see you race Kona AND I believe you are selling yourself short.

I understand the economics of doing Kona and all of that. But you of anyone also know how our lives can change in an instant. You are strong and fit and probably have enough potential impact that your presence (working with some others) can change the outcome of Kona.

It would be great to see you out at/near the front of the pro race at Kona (maybe you are waiting to get your swim faster???). I also believe with how lean you are, the physics of heat dissipation work in your favour for the Kona run course.

GO DO IT!!! Maybe the rest of us need to put heat on your sponsors so they put heat in you to race Kona!!! Nothing like gaining some experience for when you want to be podium contender!

Dev

I would think he'll be looking for a mid season IM to get one out of the way before Kona, so you never know. And I don't currently know because you don't have your 2012 schedule updated on your blog. ;)

As for racing Lance, whatever he is athletically, he's going to be a measuring stick for some outside the sport if he is competitive. I'm glad you don't see it as a yardstick for yourself that you have to measure against.

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.