I should have the HED stinger by wednesday. I've ridden, the 07 zipp disc, blackwells, and the old HED 3 Disc.

Not the sub 9 though. i'll let you know how it compares to the others.

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Grant
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I find it interesting that people always bring up the price difference between Zipp and HED, but nobody ever discusses *why* the price is different. I often get the sense that people honestly think that they are the same wheels, but one company can somehow get away with an extra 100% in price. One of the really, really, really big factors is the hub. Zipp hubs are among the very best in the business, made in the US to extremely precise tolerances as opposed to HED's hubs which are made in Taiwan; I do know what their manufacturing tolerances are. Another quite interesting thing is how the hub is centered in the disc. That's not such an easy thing to achieve as you might think, which is why HED's disc are simply a spoked wheel with a full cover, it is much easier to make. Centering a hub in a disc is a very complex problem, and one that Zipp solves very well, though at a significant investment. It's a single machine that does this - and only this.

I would be very, very interested to see not only how the wheels compared in grams of drag, which is one measure of performance, but also, more importantly in my opinion, how they stack up in terms of watts to spin a given speed. The second measurement factors in drag, but also takes the hub into account. Aerodynamically, I would expect the wheels to be quite similar. Maybe the dimpling helps a bit. Maybe one company's rim profile is slightly more advantageous. But from a performance standpoint in terms of grams of drag, I'd wager they were quite close. After all, HED had the Sub9 to refer to for quite a while before the Stinger disc was released. But I wouldn't be at all suprised if the watts to spin were quite a bit different than what the drag profile of each indicated.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

have you found the lateral stiffness of the sub-9 to be a problem? IIRC a lot of bigger riders complain about this during cornering and out of the saddle efforts.

How much do you really think the difference is in a pair of hubs? I'd guess it's minimal for most decent quality hubs as it doesen't take a lot of watts to spin the wheel itself to begin with. Aerodynamic performance of the wheel is way higher up the list.

To the op, I think you should maybe take what both Jordan and I say with a grain of salt since we're sponsored by Zipp and Hed respectively. Having said that, the overall performance of the wheels are probably very close. The bottom line is that regardless of the manufacturing cost the end result is that you have two wheels with very similar performance where one is half the price. How much it's worth to have a wheel with a more expensive build process is up to you of course.

And one last benefit of the Hed Stinger disc is that their design allows for a stiffer wheel which is important for some riders (including me).

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

I'm with Bjorn on this one, How much can the differences between the hubs really make? Assuming the hub does make a difference is it really a 700 dollar difference. I have a hard time believing that it is.

Hence the reason i chose the stinger. Aerodynamically its very close/better/worse then the sub 9. Depending on whose numbers you belive at a fraction of the cost. Seems to make sense to me.

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if you really want to nitpick, you could get a Stinger 9 and get ttflywheels.com to make you a disc that is still cheaper than a stinger disc and probably lighter too.

Well sure i could buy a box rim and send it to them too that doesn't mean its worth a shit in the aero department compared to the sub 9 or stinger

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I don't know how to define a 700 dollar difference. But I also don't think you should necessarily say that you don't believe it's a 700 dollar difference either. It may not be for you, but then again, it might be since by that same logic, a Mavic Open Pro on a good hub (chris king, for example) and a Wheelbuilder cover is more than 700 cheaper than a HED Stinger disc. And I don't really think that, performance wise, there is much difference between that wheel and either of the wheels mentioned. Or, put another way, I'd submit that the difference between HED and Zipp hubs could easily be equivalent to the difference between a Stinger disc and a wheelcover wheel.

Hub quality is not just about drag, but also about stiffness and several other "ride quality" related factors. Look even with Zipp's own wheels the improvements between the 08 and prior hubs and the 09 hubs is marked.

Valuation is always a tricky argument. The Stinger disc is way more than even the Stinger 90 + a wheelcover would be. That's why I try not to play the valuation game. My point is that I believe Zipp's hubs are better than HED's hubs. That's part - a big part - of where the price difference comes from. So they are not the same wheel. Which wheel is a better value? That's totally up to the individual. But when you consider overall performance, BOTH wheels are way more expensive than just putting a cover on your existing training wheel, something to keep in mind, especially if that rear training wheel has a powertap. A wheelcover over a powertap wheel is a much better invesment than either of these wheels, if you really want to bring it down to a value judgement.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Yeah, but the price difference between a stinger 90 + wheelcover and a Stinger disc is way less than the difference between Stinger disc and Sub 9 and you actually do get noticeable improvements in weight(more than 300g) and build quality with Stinger disc vs Stinger 90 and cover. Regarding a regular rim with cover it's not really comparable becuase you don't get the same rim shape and that's something that could actually make significant difference in aero drag.

As for stiffness of the hubs and the "other ride quality related things" I don't know that it matters considering the whole Stinger disc setup is stiffer anyway.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

pls explain the large difference in cost that still exists when they both offer Powertap Discs? i.e. stinger PT disc versus sub 9 PT disc? I have had 2 zipp discs- a dimpled one and the model before that- with their wonderful hubs- and both were not as true as my old standard HED disc (no longer made)- OR my powertap JET disc- that is dead on true and light. Also- the JET PT bump disc DOES fit in my P3.

PLUS the JET PT disc is MUCH stiffer laterally than both the zipp discs and the old style HED disc (which they no longer make).

That's absolutely fair. I'm not necessarily saying it is a $700 difference, since that's a personal decision. It's absolutely your prerogative not to think that Zipp wheels are worth more than HED. I disagree that the difference between hubs is negligible, based on my own experience. As for centering a hub, it depends on how you build your discs. I find it interesting that HED now chooses to make their discs without molding the hub into the center of the wheel. That being said, I don't know if the hub shell was ever molded in, even on the old HED discs; it seems that it could have been glued in after the production of the carbon form. For obvious reasons, I have a lot more insight into the manufacture of Zipp's wheels. I'm just giving some insight into the cost of the wheels, since I think there is a relatively common misconception that a Zipp disc and a HED disc cost the same to make but that one companies somehow gets away with gouging the consumer for an extra $700. Now, whether you think the increased price is overpriced or underpriced based on the value is up to you. But one thing I don't buy (to borrow a phrase) is that you have any actual insight into the production costs of either company, and that as a result, your assessment that Zipp commands more "because the [sic] can" is pure speculation.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

A Zipp hub is more expensive to make than a HED hub. The wattage savings maybe one or two watts or more, but it a savings. The wheel itself is more expensive to make since they do not take shortcuts that HED does. Whether it is worth the price for maybe 5 to 10 seconds over a 40K, only the buyer can decide for himself.

Its like buying a 911, for $76K, you get entry. Not bad for 4.7s for 0-60 mph and 180 mph top speed. But for for $194K, you get 3.6s and 204 mph. Is the extra $118K worth the 1.1 second decrease and 24 mph top speed increase? Only the buyer can decide for himself.

That's actually pretty easy. HED's PT discs are spoked PT wheels with a carbon cover over them. That's a relatively easy process to do. Zipp molds their hubs into their discs, which means they had to make a custom hub that housed the PowerTap torque tube & electronics. So HED's PT discs have a PT hub at the core, which is a decent or pretty good (depending on whether you have the newer or older style axle) Taiwanese made hub. Zipp's PT discs have the exact same Zipp internals as their other discs (there is absolutely zero difference in the mechanical workings) but they incorporated PowerTap's electronics. Zipp designed this whole hub from the scratch, since mating their mechanicals to the PT electronics was obviously not straightforward. But at the end of the day, you get the exact same hub quality as you'd get if you had bought a regular hub.

I have four Zipp discs. Each one of them is perfectly true. I've seen a ton more, and I've yet to see a disc that is not true, but that is simply my experience with Zipp wheels, not a statement of universality. In all cases, I'm sure everyone has horror stories about HED, but not Zipp. And somebody else has had a terrible experience with Zipp wheels, but not HED. I only have my own experience and that of people that I know to draw on. That's obviously not everyone in the world.

If the Jet PT bump disc fits your P3, a Zipp clincher disc likely would as well. The variance in terms of whether or not the disc will fit is related to the wrapping of the lug joints in the P3 where the rear triangle is attached to the seattube lug. The amount of carbon wrap and paint there is quite variable. That is why the same disc will fit on some P3s but not on others. It is a function of the frame, not of the wheel. The variance in Zipp's disc wheels is, IIRC, .004 of an inch, so it's not wheel variance that causes problems with the fit on the Cervelos. I am also not sure of the max width of the Jet bump as opposed to the 900 clincher bump as opposed to the Sub9 bump. If an 808 fits in the back of your p3, a 900 clincher disc will as well.

As for lateral stiffness, is that your opinion or is that from something published?

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

pls direct us to data that show's it's worth 5-10 seconds over a 40km. HED's data says they are more aero (not surprising)- but it sounds like you have independent data or are drinking zipp koolaid

Or maybe you drank the HED Kool Aid. I though we have already discussed on other threads how the data on the HED website does not match any other data in reference to Zipp wheels. At least the Zipp data has been consistent with magazine data. Cannot say that as far as HED data.

The only problem with this is with cars its alot easier to see the gains.

Cars have engines and you measure them by KW, torque, top speed. 0-60mp/h
With bikes its not that simple

It might be true that producing a Zipp wheel is more expensive that the production of a Hed wheel, however I also feel that Zipp's customers are paying for a massive marketing budget. I fairly sure that the massive ammount of money they have spent to get "all" the pro-tour teams on Zipp wheels plays a major factor in the difference.

last time I checked, which was while watching the GIro a few minutes ago, THE BEST PRO TEAM (there is no debate) was riding Bontrager/Hed wheels. Not to mention the teams that ride Campy/Lightweight/etc wheels (LPR, Liquigas, Milram)

It's called a sponsorship. What pro teams ride says very little about which equipment is best. It says a lot, however, about which manufacturers are paying/equipping them.

i too would also like to be pointed to the results that you have seen(or not) that zipp hubs will be 5-10secs faster over 40k than hed
you blown the trumpet of zipp wheels is fine but when you make claims that they are better than another wheel i think it is valied for somebody to ask you to prove it instead of just accepting your word as bible
i do think that hubs can make a difference but havent seen prof that zipps are better than hed i know my jet disc hubs spin forever

Don't know if this helps but I found it pretty interesting. Not to say HED doesnt do this but still interesting video on how it all comes together.

http://www.testrider.com/...t=player&video=3

...I think you might be off by an order of magnitude or so...

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