Experts will chime in with answers to your questions, but a quick answer to your "long run at race pace or slower" would be that portions of your long run, particularly in the latter miles, can be run at race pace but if you do the entire run that way, you'll never make it to the start line.

The basic idea is to first get comfortable running long, and then running long faster. Just the ability to run long will translate into faster times as you become more efficient, and then you sprinkle in workouts that focus specifically on your PMP (Planned Marathon Pace) as you dial that in like a metronome.

Anyway, I'm sure BarryP will answer with a much more detailed response....but this should be a start, anyway....

If I do my long runs at a 7:00 pace, why would I never make it to the start line?

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Proud Member of the Cervelo Mafia.

What are you planning on as far as distances for your long runs?

20 or so miles at a 7:00 pace---if you can pull that off, you should be in shape to run much faster come race day.

I would recommend Pfitzinger's "Advanced Marathoning". Mostly, he has you do your long runs at your E pace from the Daniel's tables (http://www.runbayou.com/jackd.htm).

He also has you do several marathon paced "longer" runs (I believe the longest is 16 miles). If you can hold a pace for 16 miles in training, you are probably in the ballpark for doing it for the 26.2 in a race.

As far as the running slower making you faster rational, if you do your long runs at marathon pace you are very likely to be injured, and you will be very unlikely to be able to resume training the day after one of these runs. To a certain extent, the hardest thing about marathon training is staying healthy.

I have followed Pfitzinger's program from Oct-Febuary for the past few years, and have seen some pretty good improvement.

There are a number of plans available, including Pfitzinger's, that should work well. Regarding the pace of long runs, most should be easy (see Daniels' E pace) but doing some towards the end of your training with 5-10 miles at 'M' pace is beneficial.

One thing though that is very important to remember if you use Pfitzinger's plan or another based off Daniels' Running Formula is that you need train based on your current fitness rather than your goal fitness. IOW, do NOT base your training paces off the 3:10 marathon that you want to run. Rather, run a 5k or 10k now and use that to determine your VDOT which you can then use to determine your training paces. If as you train you run another race and get faster, you can then go to a higher VDOT but it is important to base training paces off your current fitness rather than a certain time goal. By doing the prescribed workouts at the prescibed paces (especially long runs with 'M' pace sections) you will get a good idea of what your goal marathon pace should be. Also, if you havent done a recent running pace to use to determine your VDOT, try to find one with the best possible conditions (flat, relatively cool temps, etc.) so that it is a true reflection of your fitness.

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Team Timex 2014
@ajhodges

 
Use the following link and input 3:10 into the "best time" field for the marathon and it will spit out a bunch of data including ballpark paces for speedwork, long runs etc. Good advice already above regarding Pfitz...can't go wrong with his book.

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/...unningcalculator.htm

All of the above are good responses IMO.

Re long run slow pace: Keep in mind that with ALL endurance training you are essentially "managing stress." What this means is that, based on current fitness, your body has a certain level of stress that it can absorb and be able to turn around, recover, and build itself stronger. There is a tradeoff to every single training decision you make. If you swim or bike today, you are doing it instead of running. If you run long, you are doing it instead of running fast. If you run fast, you are doing it instead of running long. At some point you have to decide what stresses will give you the most returns.

In a nutshell, you run slow so that you can run more. The choice isn't between running 20 miles hard or running 20 miles easy. The choice is between running 20 miles hard during a 50 mile training week, or running 22 miles easy during a 60 mile training week.

Do you see? To do long runs at a hard pace adds significantly more stress to your body that requires more recovery. However, the added benefit of that increased pace for that workout is outweighed by the benefit of running a longer run or running more throughout the rest of the week. It just so happens that 65 - 80% of your max heart rate serves as a sweetspot in your training where you get the most return from the amount of stress you place on your body.

Now, as your marathon nears, *most* training plans will incorporate 1-3 "marathon paced runs" where you WILL run a hard long run. At this point the hope is that you built a solid foundation from all of the slower running and that your body is ready to add a higher stress that is more race specific.

See this link for more (and testimonies of people who have greatly improved on the run slower, run more often, run more plan).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

About 3 months out start building a 5k interval day with 5 minutes rest in between. Pace should be no faster than 1/2 marathon but no slower than marathon pace. Build up to 4 5ks if you can. I am not a big mileage guy but I must say long runs will help you prepare for the pain those quads will feel at mile 22 on. This year I plan on doing 2 long runs longer than 22 just to prepare for the pounding.

Barry,
What are your thoughts on cycling as cross-training in a marathon-specific program? I do believe that you HAVE to do 1 long run per week. Add in a tempo run, some speedwork, and a run of 10-13 miles at near race pace, and it seems like thats a lot to recover from; do 2-3 rides of 2+ hours, and it gives you a good amount of aerobic work without the pounding, plus helps to manage/lose weight. Is this effective, or to run close to 3 hours do you absolutley need to cut out all other sports and simply run 70 MPW? Thanks for any advice.

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

Sorry, here's the link I meant to include before:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...t_reply;so=ASC;mh=25;


Anyway, there's two answers to that:

1) There are no elite programs that I know of that advocate cycling as part of the program. I've never heard a pro coach recommend it. So NO.

2) Once I started cycling a lot, I got significantly faster at longer races. So YES.

; ^ )



I think what it comes down to is what your body can handle. I get injured when I go above 60 miles a week of running. So, for me, running 40-50 miles a week AND cycling 150 miles a week was better than running 60 miles a week. However, I know runners who can handle over 100 miles a week of running. For them, running is probably all they need.

I did know of one collegiate program (Syracuse, I think?) that had a 4-6 hour bike on Sundays as part of their training. For me I think it was specifically the long, long rides that helped. World Champ Duathlete Greg Watson told me that his running got better and better as he rode his bike up to about 150 miles a week. He said once he got beyond that he built up too much leg muscle for running. Anyway, that's just another data point to look at.

For you, since you have a multisport background, I think some cycling won't be a terrible idea. Remember, however, that it is supposed to suppliment your running, not replace it. You still NEED to build your running mileage. Don't kid yourself and think that you can run 30 mpw and bike a lot and do well in a marython. Run as much as you can (gradually build mileage safely) and then throw one or two long rides on top of that.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Thanks- my plan is to get up to 60 MPW next year, with 2 rides of 1.5-3 hours per week as well. I definitely don't need any more muscle- I'm pretty sure that I'll always be somewhat stocky, as I spent my teenage years through mid-20's in the gym.



As you can see, I'm a bit on the beefy side for an endurance athlete (this is a week ago, after I've lost 14 lbs this winter).

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

Cycling can help if you schedule them after your hardest run workouts: long run and tempo. Just don't hammer the bike. If you are injury prone and/or unable to fit a long run over 20 miles the long slow recovery bike ride of 3 hours will prepare your mind for the last hour on the race.

Lots of people do very well substituting some cycling in for some runs for marathon preps (I'm not really one - I respond best to volume, the more the merrier for me, but it has to be specific). A good friend/training partner did just this and he is built like you (he is 5-10 and almost 180/muscle). He ran a 2:58hilly marathon and credits it to cycling since he just can not run 60+ mpw. You won't know until you try though. But, most people run their best marathon off LOTS of running (big surprise there) which is why running a marathon well and tri training are not that easy to do together and most coaches would not likely recommend it.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

Damn. I guess I'm just trying to have it all- marathon well, plus not lose much of my bike/tri fitness while in school again. The news on your friend is encouraging, though. I got to 46 MPW without injury this year, so I'm thinking that 60 is easily possible next year.

As a side note (way OT) do you use PA's in your practice? I'd like to go into either orthopedics or neurology once through school. Thanks!

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat

No, we don't use any PA's. Larger orthopedic groups tend to have 1, especially if rural and to help assist in surgery and post-op. I have no idea what a neurology PA would do. A great PA job (although terrible hours) is in vascular surgery. Lots of responsibility and training.

Keep us posted on your sub-3 attempt!

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

BarryP and others,

Thanks for the links and advice. Those pace training calculators help a lot. And thanks for clarifying why I should run slower than marathon pace.

zone2

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Proud Member of the Cervelo Mafia.

good info, thanks. The sub-3 push won't be until 08. See you at Rockman!

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If I don't, who will? -Me
It's like being bipolar in opinion is a requirement around here. -TripleThreat