This would be a lobbed soft ball to Forgie if he was still around. He would write pages.

Maybe if people fucking behaved the police would feel the need to roll up armored to the teeth. Just sayin.

ETA: I'm not for arming the local police into a small armed force, but I can understand their side of it.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

No bueno indeed. This is a step in the wrong direction.

What's point of armoring up when they stand by and watch as Antifa beats people in the streets.

Police inaction (in addition to a scared, crazy, idiot driver) is what got that chick killed in Charlottesville.

Our local police force has this...



Why? Our biggest crime problem here is public intoxication.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Yeah, this combined with Arpaio pardon (sorry, commutation, slowguy), his "not too nice" comments paints kind of a dark picture of what Trump thinks a police force should be.


Not subject to Federal laws limiting the role of civilian police. OK to rough people up prior to charging with a crime. OK to arm civilians with military gear.


Trump has kind of a dark vision of what the police should be.


But it's OK. They were only jack-booted thugs under Obama. Now they're the brave men and women protecting us from the scourge of antifa violence sweeping the nation.

Except they aren't protecting anyone from Antifa. They are just standing around watching as Antifa beats up people.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You were right, it was Manning who had his/her sentence commuted.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

You had it right the first time. Arpaio was pardoned; Manning's sentence was commuted. There IS a meaningful difference with respect to the consequences. However, both executive actions send a terrible message to the public.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Gotta keep those drivers inline on PCH!

There is no PCH in Santa Barbara.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

But how can the police do their jobs without grenade launchers?

Why do you think Trump has a vision of *anything*? He is a pitchman, first and last. He'll push whatever he (at the moment) thinks will sell, to whomever he (at the moment) wants to buy.

He doesn't give a rat's ass about policy.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

I will never forget the story my dad (retired FBI agent) told me about responding to a bank robbery with local police. He was armed with his .38 revolver and level 1 ballistics vest, much like the local police. Three guys came out of the bank with fully automatic rifles and systematically destroyed the police vehicles and took out a couple cops.

Yep, no heavy equipment needed ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

If we're going to make it available to the general public, I think we ought to make it available for the police.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

Exactly this is playing to his base again, just like the transgender military ban or the wall. He doesn't give a shit either way about any of this stuff, he's just going with what sells to those folks so he can "win".

Exactly. If we're OK with oceans of high capacity semiautomatic weapons, we have to expect law enforcement to protect themselves accordingly.

The crux of the issue isn't what equipment LE has access to, but how they deploy it.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I will never forget the story my dad (retired FBI agent) told me about responding to a bank robbery with local police. He was armed with his .38 revolver and level 1 ballistics vest, much like the local police. Three guys came out of the bank with fully automatic rifles and systematically destroyed the police vehicles and took out a couple cops.

I agree that if the bad guys are armed to the gills then the cops do too.

However, what I find curious is that the solution is always an escalation in weapons, which doesn't seem to have worked too well. There doesn't seem to be a lot of questions about why grenade launchers are needed outside of a war zone, or why the bad guys or anyone else have access to the kind of weapons that require arming the police so much. The militarization of police is the obvious response to the out of control weapons available.

I don't want to get into another discussion about gun control, heaven forbid someone takes away your Constitutional right to a grenade launcher, but maybe that would be the place to start.

You don't have a Constitutional right to a grenade launcher.

Automatic weapons are highly regulated and virtually prohibited yet somehow the bad guys seem to get them ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

It seems that most departments have access to semi-automatic weapons and assorted "heavy equpiment". Are you saying that they don't?

So serious question... why don't you have a constitutional right to a grenade launcher? Isn't that just the thin edge of the wedge? Pretty soon only criminals will have grenade launchers!!! (Ok that last bit wasn't serious)

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Did you mean fully automatic? I'm sure they all have semi automatic and many have fully automatic. I hear them practicing there fully automatic at the range.

That's exactly what I am saying. Semi-auto pistols? Sure. But some departments do not have wide access to AR-type rifles, unless it is a SWAT team and most only receive semi rather than full auto.

As far as "heavy equipment," how many departments do you think have armored vehicles and Level 3 body armor? There have been multiple threads were people freaked out when cops received kevlar helmets and plate laden body armor saying they are being "militarized."

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

We have been through this. Like every other Constitutional Right, the Right to Bear Arms has limits. There is no Constitutional right to automatic weapons, short barrel rifles, and suppressed firearms. There are categories of weapons and Class 3 and destructive devices are regulated and either prohibited or nearly prohibited.

For the exactly the same reason you cannot yell "fire" in a crowded theater, there are limits on rights and, low and behold, it's pretty easy to understand and enforce.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Still, I agree with Duffy. The cues from Trump and the optics to this are all going the wrong way.
We have an obsession with "saving lives" in America, and the police are no different. They've discovered that if they kill potentially violent suspects sooner in an encounter (as opposed to later) those "dead police" statistics go down. Yeah.

Oh, and "To Protect and To Serve" too!

I live in a larger metro area. I assume that there are SWAT teams and lots of access. Moreover, everyone here knows that. That doesn't mean that the average traffic cop utilizes it on a regular basis. Would it make day-to-day policing more effective?

I'll take the (off-topic-ish) bait.. isn't the 1/101 PCH?

That is really it. I'm not against the cops having access to armored personnel carriers, vests, lots of fire power, etc.

I am against them wanting to bring their toys out to play when they aren't needed.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

The 1 and 101 combine through SB so technically, yes. But the stretch of the 101 through SB proper is off limits to cyclists.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

The problem with arming the Police with military equipment is that sooner or later they'll wanna use it. The events where a heavy armament is needed and SWAT is unavailable are rare. But civil disobedience is not. And when you get pictures of cops and regular civilians interacting like the photo below, no one wins.

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Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's

That would have made a great NWA single sleeve.

Well, you know what happens when you do that ...

Not everyone lives in a "larger metro area," and many "larger metro areas" do not have those resources or equipment.

We are not talking about putting "the average traffic cop" in an up-armored HMMV.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Both of those are pure speculation. Particularly the "scared" part. That was a 4chan-originated narrative that came out immediately after the event, and has little substantiation.

Have they used it in an abusive manner? Not a flame; a sincere question.

I'm torn. Because we are, domestically at least, a nation of cops and not soldiers, I want the cops to be able to check any threat. That said, they shouldn't roll around willy nilly in armored vehicles. Similarly, I'm worried by cops in body armor, fatigues, American flag-patched lightweight helmets, and M-4s. I even saw one dressed like that but he also had an OD green shemagh on his shoulders, just above his "POLICE" patch on his chest plate. Those cops look like they never really came back from Iraq or Afghanistan.

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War is god

They park it conspicuously in downtown locations during 4th of July, Fiesta (a local week long festival of sorts), cinco de mayo, New Year's Eve, etc.

Like I said, public intoxication is a problem that apparently requires an armored vehicle.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

There's gotta be a balance somewhere. I can see an argument that its presence at things like Fiesta is not directed at the drunks, but, rather, it's directed someone(s) thinking they're going to commit violence upon the crowd, like that asshole in Isla Vista in 2014.

On the other hand, I can't imagine that Santa Barbara PD isn't well funded, and can't afford a heavy foot-patrol presence on those days.

Again, I'm torn. I'm more scared of the cops dressed as downrange SF guys than I am of an armored vehicle in the fleet.

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War is god

Yes, because nothing ever happens downtown when masses assemble, like, oh, I dunno, a sniper shooting cops.

That's crazy talk ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Yeah, I'm sure parking an armored car on State Street has deterred numerous sniper attacks over the years. That coupled with our gun laws, no wonder this city is so safe.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Most decent sized agencies have the vehicle that has been pictured in this thread. It is a LENCO Bearcat. Officers need such equipment to respond to certain situations. The key is "what/when" situations deserve such equipment, and courts have ruled that even displaying such equipment is a level of "use of force". I have only seen one change since the Obama thing came out and that was FT Hood was dumping a ton of their old AMRAPS and similar armored personal carriers, basically any LEO agency could pick up one and take it home. Just had transport it. That stopped.

We'll never know. But, we have seen first hand what happens to police officers when they are out gunned and unprotected.

Look, I know you hate cops. We get it. But your irrational paranoia is about that last thing that should be setting policy.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don't hate cops.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

You hide that sentiment very well.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I have some good friends who are cops.

You just defend everything Trump does.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That must be it ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

That's what slowxe told me.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

That vehicle is almost identical to the APC we used in Charleston County where I worked as a S.W.A.T. medic. It's basically a bullet-resistant all-terrain SUV that's used for keeping people like me close to the danger zone but out of harm's way so we can provide life saving treatment for officers and citizens during hostage situations, live shooter situations (like the one there last week), etc. without unnecessary delay that can cost life and limb.

But it's scary looking, so I guess it should probably go.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Her name was Heather Heyer. I've attached a link so you can learn a little bit about her, but I suppose some people will just claim it's fake news.

https://www.nytimes.com/...tesville-victim.html

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3SIXTY5cycling.com

Why cop an attitude? Friend of yours?

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Because he is morally superior to you and has a heart whereas you have a stone...you insensitive racist, woman hater.

Greg

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If you are a Canuck that engages in gratuitous bashing of the US, you are probably on my Iggy List. So, save your self a bunch of typing a response unless you also feel the need to gratuitously bash me. If so, have fun.
"Don't underestimate Joe's ability to f___ things up" - Barack Obama, 2020

I'm sure he also posted "thoughts and prayers" on his Facebook page. He's so good.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

What, exactly, is your problem with this vehicle, which the SB police department says it uses about 4 times per year?

It's not a weapon. It doesn't have a cannon or grenade launcher. It's just an armored truck.

Is it just that it looks mean to you?

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

We don't need it.

That's what my problem is.

And it doesn't help the (justified) perception that our local PD has a generally adversarial relationship with a pretty damn peaceful city population.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Well, apparently the SB police have used it or vehicles like it for exactly the kind of situation it's designed for, including negotiating with an armed suspect on a highway overpass. Plus, it was free, so they didn't spend any public funds on it.

I think a vehicle like that only contributes to an adversarial relationship if people are already convinced it's some sort of evil thing to begin with, or if they're using it all the time and running around in full SWAT gear for every simple call.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XoT0EjkgJzY

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

The SBPD is not a very friendly bunch.

I'll give you one example...

One of the parks that has activities during Fiesta is on a major four lane street. There's a crosswalk that is heavily used during the festivities. At this crosswalk there are 6 motorcycle cops who are there for the sole purpose of waiting for a pedestrian to step off the curb so they ticket the (at least) four drivers who are unfortunate enough to be passing through the crosswalk at that moment. They did this in 2015 and issued around 200 tickets on Friday and Saturday alone.

Many people were a bit cranked about it and the idea was proposed that instead of allowing drivers to "endanger" pedestrians so they can issue tickets, maybe they should put a traffic control officer at the crosswalk. This would eliminate the need for a half dozen officers, make crossing safer and not catch drivers in a, for most instances, bullshit violation.

So what did the SBPD do for 2016 and 2017? They had plain clothes cops constantly crossing at that intersection in a "sting operation" so they could issue more tickets.

Here's another example...

Our city was found to be one of the dangerous cities of its size for cyclists.

SBPD stepped up enforcement on....




....cyclists.



Have I told you about how fucking fast they drive in my street, for no reason, and then retaliate when I complain?

How long have you lived in SB anyway?

And that armed dude on the overpass was handled like shit. How do I know? Because I watched The whole fucking thing go down while sitting in my car stuck on the freeway for 3 hours.

It was a joke.

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

My gawd! It sounds like Hitler's Germany!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I'm not going to try to defend the SBPD. I don't live there, and they could be total pricks for all I know, although one would be silly to take your word for it, given the bias you've displayed against law enforcement over the past few years.

I just don't understand why them having a vehicle that can really only be used as a defensive measure for police or citizens would piss someone off, especially since your tax dollars weren't spent on it, and it's apparently very rarely used.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Maintenance of those big military vehicles is often non-trivial. Often also requires specialized maintenance equipment and skills. The vehicles are not "free" to a dept's annual budget.

No, it's really just par for the course in rich communities. Of course, if Wisconsin had any rich communities you'd know this and Hillary would have made a campaign stop there.

Plus, it was free, so they didn't spend any public funds on it.

"It was free"?? Come on. You know better.

3 years ago? Wouldn't that have been Obama's America?

Not all of the military equipment is war specific, much of the equipment is suitable for civilian use like skip loaders, earth movers and utility vehicles such as the old deuce and half trucks. Many of the cities around where I live have former military equipment for their snow removal/road cleanup program, and would not have any means of removing snow after a snow event or dirt and stones from a road after a landslide.

As far as the photo that Duffy posted, such a vehicle would be invaluable in cases where a well armed and prepared group of bank robbers decided Santa Barbara was a good place for their chosen career field.

Part of the training that law enforcement gets is the video of the bank robbery that went down where the robbers had MAC 90s that they had modified into AK-47s (full auto), and head to toe kelvar overcoats and helmets. That event lasted a long time, with police officers wounded in the street while the bad guys ruled the scene. The police had nothing other than handguns and shotguns at the time, neither of which would be effective in stopping the bad guys, who walked up and down the sidewalk keeping the police at bay with gunfire while they decided how to escape.

Eventually a police detective went into a local gun shop and commandeered a 30.06 rifle and ammo to use. He shot one of the bad guys and they decided to leave the scene, and then other police eventually stopped the bad guy a few blocks away.

This has happened more than once, as it happened again in 1997 in North Hollywood, CA.

It's a truck. I doubt that they're taking on a lot of specialized maintenance, in fact, the company that makes them advertises the Bearcat's advantages as including low maintenance costs.

No, any vehicle adds something to a budget in terms of maintenance, fuel, etc. However, my point, pretty obviously, was that the vehicle was donated and they didn't have to purchase it.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

Serious question...

Why would a police force that refuses to act to stop a few antifa protestors armed with sticks and peeper spray then choose to engage in a gun battle with a well armed and prepared group of bank robbers?

Why not just let the bank robbers take the money and then try to find them later (surveilance videos, dye packs, GPS trackers, THE FBI, etc.)?

It's just weird to me. Cops all around the country will stand by and watch as these "protestors" block traffic and beat people up because they're wearing Trump hats then turn around and claim they need an armored vehicle so they can do battle against guys with ak47s...

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Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

Do you need a few minutes to think this through?

At my work we mainatain 4 HMMWVs and some other vehicles They're expensive to maintain. They use almost no commercial off-the-shelf parts. Everything is super heavy. You can't use regular commercial jacks or lifts. Even a wheel change is hard. The diagnostic systems are custom. Brake jobs are brutal since the brakes aren't in the wheels. You either need a whole garage outfitted for it, or you take it to a shop with military vehicle experience, which are few and far between since most military bases have on-base depots.

The Bearcat is based on a Ford F-550. That one's probably much easier than most. A lot of military vehicles don't have a lineage to commercial vehicles.

Yet the US Army has been able to maintain HMMVs for well over a decade in the middle of the desert without heavy lifts a "whole garage outfitted for it."

Sounds to me like you guys are pussies ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Of course they do. There are field maintenance facilities which are effectively fully-equipped garages. Giant warehouse-like buildings. Full range of stuff. Welding, engine lift, custom diagnostics. They also have really huge tow vehicles (or helicopters) for when they break down.

And if they really break down hardcore they just junk them (there are tens of thousands of junked vehicles in the desert) and order a new one. Or if it's an expensive vehicle, ship it back to the U.S. for depot-level refurb.

The U.S. military is, at its core, the biggest logistics supply chain in the world (outside of maybe Amazon or Walmart).

These vehicles are cut loose from that world-class logistics supply chain. Don't underestimate that. .

Huh! I must have missed it sitting in the desert, on the Iraq border, in a tent city with no garage. My HMMV broke down a few times and, each time, was repaired in a tent with no heavy equipment.

Then again, my guys weren't pussies ...

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

My National Guard unit did nearly all of the work on HMMWVs, Deuce and halfs, and 5 ton trucks on the asphalt parking lot without anything more than the normal tools. That included transmission work, repacking bearings, wheel changing and brake maintenance. The only time the vehicles went into the garage was for engine removal. Sometimes we rolled the Hummers into the garage for the work if it was raining, which was pretty rare given my unit at that time was in San Diego county.

All the talk of HMMWV maintenance is great, but as you noted, these vehicles are not like that. They are based on a standard truck design, specifically to make maintenance easier and cheaper, and so that no special training or license is required to operate them.

I got it, Duffy doesn't like the police, and especially doesn't like the police where he lives. However, I don't see how that has really any bearing on whether a police department should have a single vehicle like this.

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Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

There are 3 tiers of maintenance. You have experience with one tier.

Which tier covers bullet holes and IEDs?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR