What do you think is the most likely reason you got your PR?

Constituency and staying healthy trump volume

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

#1: Rest, recovery, rest, recovery, rest more, more recovery
#2: Taper (recover) well! I had PLENTY of extra tapering this time around.
#3: Experience counts - 10 years of solid training + solid race execution this time around

With three little kids and a spouse that works (and also does Tris), I jam in as much as I can around the edges and average less than 7 hours a week. Last year, I was just running, hitting a max of 40mpw and as a 45 year old male (weighing 200+ lbs) managed a 3:23 marathon. Tried to run more to see if I could go faster and wound up with a stress fracture in my leg. So, I decided to start swimming again and found some spin classes to break up my workout weeks. Lost 15 pounds with the more varied workout since January. Now I'm running less than 20mpw, biking around 30mpw and swimming less than 4k yards. It's all I have time for.

That said, managed a 2:12 Olympic this past weekend and while it was second in AG, I felt like it was a pretty strong effort for my lack of experience. My USAT score was 88.3— I think swim was 1:23/100, bike was around 23mph and run was 6:5something average.

About my only 'secret' is that all my running is trails and I don't go easy. ever. I think that's what you give up when you start reducing the hours--those easy runs or bike rides were you're not averaging 20+ just don't happen. So, I have to be really, really careful about listening to what my legs are telling me.

Let me get this straight - you lowered volume and took out intensity? Yet, you set small PRs? At what distance? Thanks.

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Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.

Before we go any further, are the PR's on the same exact courses? I could train no hours for 4 months and pick a race course and PR. What you really need to do is some actual measured races, like a 5k or 10k, or 500 pool swim, or some bike course you have done a million times.

The rest of this topic is pointless without context, but you are right in that many people can go pretty fast on your hours per week. I did just about that much in training for a 1/2 Ironman when I turned 50(long, slowish course in Oceanside) and I did an AG PR for me, but more importantly I won the AG, a much better gauge than some time on a course on a given day of who knows what distance..

Yep. Lowered BOTH volume & intensity, and significantly so on both compared to what I normally train at.

I still did 1 'hardish' workout a week, but not VO2max intensity - LT or sub-LT at best for all of them. Again, I was intentionally cutting out intensity this time around, as my #1 goal was to get full rest & recovery from my prior marathon training regimen and just to have fun at triathlon while getting back in enough swim/bike shape (after zero swim/bike x 5 months!) to reconsider racing tri seriously.

PR at Oly and sprint distances in two separate races, kind of embarrasingly won my AG in soft fields in both of 'em, bit I did manage to hit a USAT 86 score in M40-45. Def not burning down the house, but considering I've trained 12-16 hours per week for a full block just to hit a USAT 84 a few years ago, I'll take it.

I will say I felt really, really good prior to race day this block. It may very well have been the mere reality that after years of training a lot harder with a lot more volume, it just took one 'easy' block for me to consolidate a lot of those gains.

]

And you're right - the courses were NOT the same, so not directly a fair comparison. I did compare the USAT score though, and as said above, I outperformed in the last two races compared to prior USAT scores. So even if the course was easier, probably a legitimately good performance for me compared to my prior efforts on different courses.

I do agree that the best way would be with measured race benchmarks as you suggest, but as said - my goal was to NOT take this block seriously - I didn't even do a single FTP test and just ran my Kickr 'by comfort!'

You probably just had a good 4 month taper then, not unheard of once you have put in a large base of training for a decade or more. That is what enabled me to do so well, all my past miles counted for something. Only I did not go easy in my 7 hours a week, I hammered them all and then recovered from each short session.

True, agreed! I suspect I 'may' have even been able to go faster if I hammered all the workouts at this low volume in a progressive manner with appropriate taper for race day, but I guess I just got lucky and was able to get away with a lot less.

I've always been a big believer in more volume = better, but it does seem like some periodic pullbacks def do you good.

Thanks for the clarification - I would actually say you were de-training, however, if you were going pretty hard in the 12 hour block, then maybe this was an extended taper. I don't think you could keep improving by training like this but one cycle of this type of training could and did yield an improvement. I know that low volume works, but usually with some intensity- even 1 workout per week in each sport.

All in all, great job of experimentation and learning a different way to train and get faster. Well done. :)

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Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.

Triathletes tend to overvalue volume. If you're not training over 12 hours, then you're not seen as serious. This is due, I think, to the popularity of long course training.

The truth of the mater is, at 7.5 hours a week you're still averaging over an hour a day. That's a decent amount of time and provides sufficient stimulus for your body to achieve most of the physiological adaptations required to perform well at non-ultra endurance events. There are diminishing returns, I think, after an hour a day. You'll never reach your potential off an hour a day, but assuming ones body composition is decent and they have good technique, he/she can perform well.

12 hours a week isn't even good marathon volume.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

I have seen it happen time and time again. The most notable example might be Sebi's win at Kona but I have seen many other examples and I myself had a injury before Ironman Mont Tremblant in 2015, did very little, and showed up to Wisconsin without any intentions of racing or even being able to race until I decided to just give it a shot living right at the start/finish and being there anyway. IMMT was my A race for that year. I ended up going back home and taking a lot of rest all and then showed up to Ironman Wisconsin and went 8:59:59 and was never really pushed that day despite my longest ride being like 90 minutes in the previous 4 weeks. I should really go back and do a mini-case study.

I can also remember back in to Tucson resetting the season and doing no intensity for months and then boom, 350 for 20 minutes for first effort back.

In general many high level athletes suffer from the same thing, fear they are not doing enough. It is what drives so many athletes to get sick, injured, burned out, etc.

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Lol - says the guy who trains 20+ hours / week year 'round - for Sprints and Olys.

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float , hammer , and jog

Are you serious when you say 12 hours isn't good marathon volume? 12 hours averaging 6 minutes/mile is 120 miles/week. At 7 minute pace its 102 miles. At 8 minute pace it's 90 miles. Most runners would run close to their potential at those volumes. Any additional mileage/time running would produce marginal gains.

You don't actually think this, do you?

I think you can go fast on 7.5 hrs per week. Yes. This admittedly assumes minimal swim training and you certainly won't reach your full potential, but if you can fit in 3hrs focused cycling, 3 hrs running and 1.5 hrs swimming, you can go fast.

A typical week:
Running: 60 min. 45 min. 45 min. 30 min.
Cycling: All indoors. 45 min. 45 min. 90 min.
Swimming: 30 min. 30 min. 30 min.

For the running, do a 4 mile tempo in the middle of one run and, if feeling good, intervals (5x1000, 6x800, etc.) in another.

For the bike, do one 2x15 workout at FTP. Pound the long ride (don't time trial it, but don't be a little bitch either) Do the other steady-80-85% FTP. You can replace one of these with a VO2 workout if you fee like it.

You'll never be a pro with this program, but if most of the people at local sprint/oly triathlons lost excess fat and did this, they'd be "fast." I don't see why a youngish male couldn't break 2:15 in an Olympic on this. That's not close to elite, but it's better than 90% of current participants.

For the OP, I would definitely agree that he is experiencing a long taper effect. But I also think you can maintain fitness for quite a while off of 7.5 hrs per week. It's the multiple days in a row of not doing anything that kills fitness.

Most aren't averaging a 6 minute mile.

90 miles a week is decent marathon, over that is better. Marginal gains are still gains.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

Yes, you can go *reasonably* fast on a limited timeframe. Last time I checked, there aren't that many Pro-Joe's actually making a living at this hobby and many of us have wives, kids and mortgages to deal with. So, yea, I'd like to hear more about people like myself who have had a *reasonable* amount of success on a small amount of investment in time. I thought that was what this thread was about, hence my reply. Or are we just talking about Pros who had to "make do" with only training 20 hours a week?

I have tons of stories about my clients doing this. Each is very different though.

It basically comes down to quality over quantity.

And time spent fixing weak links for large gain, over strengthening strong links for minimal gain.

not to mention to learn to go faster you have to be fresh for those sessions.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

hahahahahahaha

I trained a lot for several years, averaging 20ish hours a week. I did two IMs during that time in 9:15 and 9:25 Then last summer I took a more full time job and over the next 12months average 12hours of training/week. I did do a bigger month right before my IM, but mostly I cut out everything that I felt wasn't really important, although I had a couple of super easy spins a week as part of job which added some fluff time. I did a 9:10 last month at Santa Rosa, and I'm doing a half in 2 weeks, hoping to get close to my PR. We'll see how that goes, but (almost) all of my fastest athletes train in the 9-11 hour/week range and are really consistent about it.

With a super busy semester on tap for me this fall and spring + job commitments, my training volume is coming down a bit. My coach and I are experimenting and seeing what I can manage off of low volume. Target race is mid-October.

I typically avg 12hrs/week, some are 14-16 and some are 9-10. Not big volume, but not insignificant. Now I'm looking at ~9-10/week.

Bread and butter is to run every day, usually very easy, for 3-5mi right when I wake up. One longer run of 60ish min with intervals. One hard brick off the bike. 3x short swims, I'm in and out with 2km in 30min (WU + threshold + CD maybe). 2x45min rides during the week, one short intervals, one longer. "Long" weekend ride of 2hrs. Maybe an easy shakeout ride after the long run.

I'd love to hear about people's success off of low volume. I've been in the 12-14 range for a little over 3yrs now so I have a reasonable base.

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

I believe this. Most triathletes are doing way too much volume. We just had our 3rd child last year (have had 3 kids sincee 2013). I took most of the year off. Just did 8 weeks with 5-6 hours a week avg leading up to a sprint race (.5 sw, 18 bike, 4 mile run) and finished 3rd overall. It wasn't my best time but I will say it wasn't far off from what it used to be. It really opened my eyes to what can happen if you listen to your body and make every session count.

Less-is-more always works after sustained periods of more-is-more! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

This was one of the main reasons I hired a coach... and the fact I have no historical background in running, swimming or biking. I was a football, basketball and baseball player with a "good motor"...

I digress I found myself injured near the end of most years due to doing too much and spending too much time doing tempo/high intensity stuff, little recovery time, etc.

On thread topic, my running is where my coach has helped me in terms of performance the most in addition to my major goal of staying away from training induced injuries. My runs are broken into five categories with prescribed paces for each workout... 2 of them are at an easy pace, once is slightly above tempo, one is tempo and then I have interval paces below tempo for my speed workouts. Most of my workouts are at "easy" paces for me with tempo and track/speed workouts sprinkled in. Depends on where I'm at with a build, run block, taper, etc. but running "smarter" vs. just running tempo miles at random distances I came up with on my own has been a huge step in the right direction for me.