Or you can just keep filling the house with nieces and nephews... :)

How did that pan out anyway? Got a summer visitor or did you manage to get out of it?

How does a couple let this happen? Yes, kids are an enormous time/money/energy suck, but you are married to someone forever (supposedly) and it would seem to be pretty important to maintain that marriage every day. Parents should not be two individuals, but a team that works together to do the job.

(speaking as someone coming up on 21 years of marriage, one daughter a rising college sophomore, and one a rising HS freshman)

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Got out of that one - the kid is a the local junior college but my wife helped him rent a place. We shall see. I can certainly see my wife struggling with the concept of no kids around to manage / take care of which is tangentially related to this post.

 
To your original post. I can see how easy it would be to not know how the heck to live together once the kids are gone. I honestly believe if not for grandkids coming along quickly, my parents could very well have been in that position. The advent of the grandkids seems to have made being married, miserable but able to see the grandkids together better than being divorced, who knows what mentally, and having grandkids go to 2 different Christmases.

Yet another reason to not have kids!

Well, they could have made it as long as they did for the children. Or at least the good of the children factored heavily into the decision.

I'm not so sure that it's only when the kids are gone that they realise they 'barely know each other'. I'd go as far to say the problems were there for a long time and speculate that in most cases they simply stayed together to give stability to their kids. It must take a lot of courage to start over in the second half of your life and in particular for women who have been traditional stay at home mums. I'm sure the thoughts of moving on have been there for many years prior.

Whilst I acknowledge your point that two people can become strangers to each other with all the focus on the kids, I also agree with the other poster which implied that it doesn't have to be that way with the right focus. Kids know when their parents are not happy. I see it in my own mum with the way dad has just ground her down with constant, derogatory or condescending remarks. It's gotten worse with him no longer working. She has told me that if he were to pass she would feel some degree of relief. It is really sad that it gets to that point. In her case though it's not really through any fault of hers

Getting old sucks. Our physical abilities and health deteriorate and perhaps that's part of the reason people get grumpy and relationships falter. There is probably a lot of reflection on one's life and the fear of not having achieved what you had anticipated you would have when you were young. If you're not in a happy relationship then the temptation to no longer be held back by things that make you unhappy would I believe be a major reason to move on. But I also think that reflection and fear of not having achieved things might also contribute to moving on from a relationship that wasn't necessarily that bad. Grass is greener and all that.

Getting old alone would be a fear for many. It would be horrible for those that may have moved on out of fear that they've missed out on something only to find that things weren't that bad after all and it's then too late. Parents need to work on their own relationships as much as they do the lives of their kids. It shouldn't have to be game over once the kids leave home.

If I had a buck for all the parents that stayed together for the sake of the kids I'd be rich. Not a big surprise.

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"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."

I have friends and colleagues who seem extremely happy as parents but not as spouses. "The family" is everything to them and they love and adore "the family." They are not staying together "for the sake of the children" but because being parents has become the sum of their existence. When the kids are gone, so too are the family vacations, family cookouts, family movie night, etc., etc. When that ends, they look at each other and wonder why they are still together when there is no more family. They certainly were a "team" that worked together to do the job of raising the family. But, when "the family" has moved out, there is no longer a purpose for the team to stay together.

Personally, like you, I don't get it. But, my situation is a bit different. I came into "the family" with wifie and the two kids. We loved having the kids at home, but were never concerned about them moving out. I was 40 when the second kid left. It's awesome being an empty nester! But, in our case, wifie and I never had the no-kid life before. We went into marriage with the kiddos, so, it was almost like being newlyweds when the kids moved out!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Yup. Stay together for the kids.

A terrible decision. But many do this.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

You get through this period by getting together with your posse and eating and drinking a lot. This lasts for a season until grandkids come then you go your separate ways again.

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I'll be what I am
A solitary man

Our relationship got better when our daughter went away to college.

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

This is my situation. We like to travel, go to the theatre, movies, and working out. We each have our own hobbies so all of our time isn't spent together. Our bumps were when our kids were little and we didn't have our own lives. I think that is a huge key as well. If you spend all of your time together you never know what it's like to be your own person.

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TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.

I'm guessing we'll be in that boat. Currently have 4 and 6 year old kids, we both work in fairly demanding (though fortunately flexible) jobs, we don't have many relationship issues but nearly all the ones we do stem from the stress and mess of young kids and/or the time pressures we're both under. As the kids get older and (hopefully!) we get more time of our own again I'm really looking forward to spending more quality time with the wife.

Oh good, a cliche. Always nice to get those on the table.

My wife and I are enjoying the hell out of it. As she said, "it's like dating again, but this time we have money."

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Lifeguard: "Do you need help?" Me: "No, that's just my butterfly."

What part is the cliche? That people say (and do) this? (They do) or that it's a terrible decision? (It is)

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

My wife comes from an "interesting" background. Her biological dad was just a sperm donor (also a creep). She was adopted by the next husband when she was 2, who is an absolute asshole. That dad lasted until she was 13 then it was on to dad #3. Even with all that turmoil she is still a big advocate of divorce. Dad #2 was abusive, has alcohol issues and just flat did not get along with her mom. My wife says they and the three kids were 100% better off with the divorce than if they had stuck it out for the kids. She thinks a lot of people stick it out too long.

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

That's what D'Wife and I are looking forward to: Daydrinking on weekends and screwing whenever & wherever we want

Although D'Kid wants to go to college nearby, probably commuting, so maybe not moving out just yet

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I think I may have come up with the elegant solution for this problem, I will not be an empty nester until I'm 80 years old or so. My wife will be approaching 60 at that time, so we will both just pack up the motorhome and hit the road, waiting for the eventual grandkids. Of course I will have to live to 90 to see them probably, but should be doable unless some truck takes me out or cancer decides it wants my body.

But even now I have the struggles you all have, just have a bit more patience and time to deal with them. I need to try to work on my wife more, the kids do present a total energy suck at times. I'm just very lucky in that she turned out to me mom of the year, every year. So for now that empty nest is well into the future, but most who are there or about to be always say it goes by fast so don't blink!!

Empty Nest Divorce when the last kids leaves the home or goes off to university, is actually one of the top times for divorce. Reason - many couples do stay together, "for the kids". (more on that in a second). It's so bad that many universities have counselors on campus to deal specifically with this issue.

Good reads on this are by Judith Wallerstein (google her). Many parents as noted, decide to stay together for the sake of the kids. They THINK they are doing the right thing - but kids are VERY perspective - much more-so than we think. They see/hear EVERYTHING. So, many of these parents put on an act of a good marriage, and those are the good ones - but the kids will see though that act - and then the worst ones are when the relationship is toxic, (but sometimes livable). Remember, parents are the most influential role models on kids! And what you are showing them is how NOT to truly live a fully loving and happy marriage.

Fast forward to the freshman at University - they get the news that Mom & Dad are divorcing, which can be trauma point number 1. The second trauma point with that is when it dawns on the kid that the parents stayed together FOR THEM (they'll hear that somehow) - thus, now knowing their parents gave up some great years of their life to live in an un-loving and un-happy marriage - they feel MASSIVE guilt about this! And as noted, their sense of what a proper loving and happy marriage has been warped and distorted.

In short - staying together for the kids, is NOT a good idea!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

^^This. Friday is Date Night and we generally dress nicer than board shorts and workout gear which is standard fare the other nights of the week. We might not even leave the couch but it is our time.

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All I Wanted Was A Pepsi, Just One Pepsi

Team Zoot, Team Zoot Mid-Atlantic

The cliche is that it's automatically a terrible decision. It seems like a totally unexamined assumption IMHO.

First, there's all kinds of science that concludes children of married couples do better on a variety of levels. Second, it's stupid to suggest that the kids not even enter into the decision. And that's the only way to ensure you aren't staying together for the kids. "Yeah, we had kids, but fuck it if their well being is going to enter our minds when it comes to such an important decision."

For me it would actually be the other way around. Staying together for the kids is -- by default -- the best decision for the kids unless you've got extreme circumstances that would warrant a different decision. In other words, unless you were getting divorced for the kids.

I dunno. Maybe there's a cliche there too. Is getting divorced for the kids always a terrible decision?

Well, we can all look forward to you driving around your RV when you're 80 yrs old!

Our plan is to jump on our sailboat in 2 yrs as soon as kid #2 leaves for college and take off on an open ended trip. Maybe we'll just make San Diego and hang out or maybe we'll make it around the world, doesn't really matter. The goal is to shake up the routine and rely on each other - our kids will have to fly to wherever we are when they have their breaks.

Hopefully, it works out and we can pull it off. We did this for 6 months when our girls were 3 and 5 and we had a great time exploring Mexico and the Sea of Cortez.

Old people driving normal sized cars are bad enough [trust me, I've lived in Florida] ... imagine them in Winnebagos!!!

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Well the vast majority of couples will fight non stop if they are staying together "for the kids". This is not good.

If (big if) you can live together amicably and raise kids together then great. But that is very rare.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

D'Wife were having a bad time many years ago, and things looked like it would be the end

I'd go to bed and silently say to her "Sleep well. I'll likely divorce you in the morning"

Well, much like Wesley and The Dread Pirate Roberts, it didn't exactly work out that way; today is our 25th Wedding Anniversary

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Nice work, congratulations! I'm sure some good lessons learned in there.

About six months ago I got into a pretty heated argument with the missus. I told her "you answer me like that again, and I'll give you half of everything I own." That straightened her up.

Yes, you did marry quite above your pay grade!

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Cant help but wonder if there's any significant differentiation in the trendlines depending on how long a couple was together prior to starting a family. My wife and I were a pair for a good 8-9 years prior to kid #1, so we have a decent track record of doing stuff together w/o having everything revolving around the kids, and don't have such a hard time reverting back to that when they're gone for whatever reason. We just had the older one move back in for the summer, and we're definitely eager to help him, uh, "re-establish his independence..."

I was thinking the same earlier - wife and I were married for 5 yrs before kids and traveled together extensively during that time and settled in a bit. I can see kiddos earlier on wouldn't allow the marriage to settle in. The divorce rate has increased dramatically in the past 10 yrs which I would expect is a combination of what you suggested plus the general cultural sentiment in prior generations that one doesn't divorce (particularly women). The studies I read stated that women are the main drivers of the divorces of empty nesters so that seems to correlate.

Married 5 years before we started trying for a child and 7 when she got here

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Really? Do you have a link for that? I could expect a blip rise in divorce rates, but the trend for the past 30 years has been a drop in divorce rates.

There's a link in the OP...this is specifically related to 'empy nesters' as per my OP.

Here's a snippet:

"These women have plenty of company. Since 1990 the divorce ratehas doubled to 1 in 4 for couples over age 50. And researchers found after age 40 it’s often the wife who wants the divorce."

There are only two ways for any marriage to end

Death or Divorce

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

anullment - and what do you know, you're leaving loved ones in strip bars in Cleveland!

Yeah, I left that one out, because it means that [much like the Apollo moon landings, Rocky V and Van Halen III] the marriage never really happened, so it can't really end?

Or can it?

Yeah, I'll have to tell you the Cleveland story sometime

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

This is a tricky situation and, frankly, I fear it happening in 15 years.

Sometimes the most brave thing a person can do is stay & be there for their family and kids, even if they take no grand action. Sometimes the most brave thing a person can do is divorce earlier on. Sometimes it's a clear decision; most of the time it's not. And nobody else knows the war better than those in that war.

It's just not clear cut, and I can absolutely see how and why it happens.

You could always make a sex tape

Bring that spark back!

And failing to keep the marriage relationship strong is also failing to raise the children correctly. As children mature into teens, they look for that relationship as a template for how their relationships will be in the future. If they see unhealthy relationships, they will adopt them as their own, extending the failures into the next generation when their kids see their parent failures. My parents had an unhealthy relationship as my father was not faithful to my mother and a mean drunk who enjoyed scaring both his wife and his children, and my mother accepted that until she had no other choice but to leave him.

I would have had that for an example if not for an aunt and uncle who did have a strong relationship, and exhibited their love and friendship for each other in front of me when I spent summers in their house. I chose to use the two examples as one to pattern my own relationships on, and the other as what NOT to do in my relationships. That has been a successful choice, once I overcame a few problems that were not related to how I treated my partners.

First, there's all kinds of science that concludes children of married couples do better on a variety of levels. Second, it's stupid to suggest that the kids not even enter into the decision. And that's the only way to ensure you aren't staying together for the kids. "Yeah, we had kids, but fuck it if their well being is going to enter our minds when it comes to such an important decision."

For me it would actually be the other way around. Staying together for the kids is -- by default -- the best decision for the kids unless you've got extreme circumstances that would warrant a different decision. In other words, unless you were getting divorced for the kids.


Look up the research and/or books by Judith Wallerstein

Yes - an intact and great marriage with two loving parents with great communication is the best situation.

Surprisingly to many, a not very good situation is when the parents stay together for the kids. The parents THINK it helpful - but the long term negative consequences of this on the kids can be particularly not very good.

Kids fair reasonably to very well in the, "good divorce" - very similar to the fully intact marriages. But a "good divorce" may be one of the hardest and most challenging things you have ever done - believe me, I went through it. What kept me going was ALWAYS putting the needs/feelings of my son first and having my Ex act/behave in the same manner ( I was rather lucky in this regard - I know it's not always the case), and keeping in good, open and honest communication with her*. We both had to give-up a lot of things. We both had to put other things aside. We both had to bury some pretty strong and powerful emotions, and move forward. It was hard!

*The problem with divorce, and if you want one of those good divorces is that when there are kids involved, the post-divorce communication, actually has to INCREASE - both in the amount of communication and the quality of it and it has to stay that way for YEARS!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog