Your seat is too high.

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who's smarter than you're? i'm!

I'm not a fan of Mavics. That said, I suspect 404s would be a better choice than 808s. None of these 3 wheel choices are gone make much difference. He's probably just faster than you.

Your seat is too low or your frame is too big. Also, you are losing speed with that white bar/stem combo. Black would be much faster.

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Amateur recreational hobbyist cyclist
https://www.strava.com/athletes/337152
https://vimeo.com/user11846099

You can't ride with deep wheels and a round tube frame. That is a tragedy. Get an aero road frame and hide all this silly cables.

How can the bar/stem combo make a difference? Are you joking or serious? It does feel a little cramped position wise. My seat was a bit too high in this picture and I lowered it even more so now it fits better. Not sure why if the frame is almost same height as my seat would make a difference.

Yep he is a better rider than me. But that's all he does is cycle. I run every morning and then I ride at later afternoon. This morning I did 6 sets of 800m track intervals(running) so my legs were not fresh. I was riding his wheel for the majority of the ride so he actually had to use more energy. After we were going up the slow rolling hill, he finally waived me ahead and managed to give him the 2 minute break he needed and then I started to tire out from the heavy feel of the wheels. I know my Cosmic Carbones I made the same trip up this rolling hill and I didn't feel as gassed but anyway once he recovered he was all balls out again, just peddling like a madman.

anyway how come you don't like Mavics? I have read issues with bearings needing frequent maintenance and I can tell my 808 zipps roll forever where the Cosmic seems to have bearings that have sand inside. They just don't spin as freely

Yep you were right. My seat was too high and I lowered it. Another person said my frame was too big but if the seat is low enough where I got proper knee angle I don't understand why the frame should be much smaller.

are you being serious? I never heard of anybody putting it quite like that, that you can't ride using deep wheels with a tubular frame.

Go away, troll

You are talking plain stupid...no clue what you are talking about!
I won 30 races in one year on a Caad 10 with 85mm wheels.

I am not a racer and I do not compete in any cycling events. I am primarily a runner but nevertheless I don't see many professional tour riders racing 808's for road bikes.

Obvious troll is ...obvious ...

Meh 2/10 attempt.

I wasn't talking to you....I was speaking in reference to the guy that criticized you

Oh I didn't know. There are a lot of folks on this forum that seem more interested in disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing rather than really trying to help. For me, going back to the Cosmic Carbone seems like the natural choice for everyday riding. The Zipp 808's on a road bike, I guess if you have the leg strength it's a great wheel but I am not a powerful rider so I think the 60mm Carbone SLE seems more appropriate in spite of the fact they don't look as cool

However...you may want to check your frame size/ Seat height ratio.?
This is mine...National Record Holder...Professional Grand Tour Cyclist for a career.

Oh I know...I have seen my friends...numerous world champions...people that were trying to help.,,,run off by all the assholes on this forum over the last decade or more that hide behind the veil of the internet. There are still very knowledgeable people around ..but they are a minority.
I wouldn't use this forum to gain accurate information. There are many better resources.

I race crits with 808, no problems with them to become fast in the sprints. In order to corner fast short cranks are important.

Yeah...In my day...we crushed crits...with an 808 upfront and a 1080 on the back.... fastest combo I ever experienced...but we were all running 175mm....

You win 1 internet today, dude.
This should be someone's sig.

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Next races on the schedule: none at the moment

I am totally with you on this.....

Otherwise you are totally worrying about the wrong things:

You should be worried about having the right skinsuit, aero helmet and shoe covers way more than about wheel depth.

Your riding buddy crushed your soul on the MUP

Have you considered a trispoke?

I have Hed3 Plus on order and when I get them hopefully by end of this month, they will be on this bike not my Roadie.

they say Troll's have a dark side to their personality, very very dark. It's almost as if they were bullied as a kid and/or feel very insecure so in order to make themselves feel better they have to put others down.

In another thread for instance, a forum member was asking for running advice, he wanted to go from a present half marathon time of 1:52 to 1:30 in just 3 months. Anyway, several people basically in one form or another

1. Build up your base slowly, run a lot, and you will nail your time goal
2. Run Run Run Slow but a lot, you don't need any speed work, you will hit your time goal.
3. Run Run Run slow, but run run run a lot

I told the OP on that thread to not listen to those who are advocating you don't need any kind of structured training. Then all these guys were using word play to prove to me you don't need any formal half marathon training program unless you are an elite.

It was so ridiculous because there are many great running coaches who have training programs for all levels, beginners, intermediate, advanced, and elites. I can't think of one athlete who is serious like the OP wanted a specific time goal, that just goes out and wings it, no training program, not taking any advice from people who are qualified. I have never heard of anybody wanting to hit a time goal, that just goes out and runs slow with no speed work to hit a specific time goal. I wasn't advocating he train like an elite, but to follow a training program appropriate for ones level I felt was good sound advice

Wow that is insane. The 808's seem to require the legs of the hulk to get moving quickly. I am sure there are guys with lots of watts that can make these wheels go fast, but I don't have the leg strength. I primarily am a runner and not a cyclist and not to say runners can't be good cyclists, but for me at least I don't have a lot of leg strength to spin a deep wheel set

Skin suit on a road bike? My bib I wear has pockets in back and I am sure the breathable fabric is creating drag. I may look into getting one but shoe covers? Holy cow maybe 6 nanoseconds for a 50 million mile ride?...lol.... but yeah I think riding just to keep up with this guy seems childish. He is a serious competitor and races locally. But he is seems bent on making sure I know he is faster and when he passes me after I get gassed on a gentle rolling hill, he always tells me how fast he was going while getting passed. Anyway once I get my Carbone back on, hopefully I will be more competitive on the hills if I choose to ride with this guy.

But the other part is saying no way, this guy is going to cause an accident. He almost biffed it going up a bridge. A guy was adjusting his chain, he finished and then started without warning to turn his bike and himself and wheel it 360 degrees. He almost caused this guy I rode with yesterday to crash.

Looking at your picture, why is the frame so much smaller than the seat height? Wouldn't it make more sense to get a frame size that is nearly as tall as your seat height? Does choosing a small frame offer the best way to save weight and get in a more aero tuck? My bike seems to fit me fine but then again I was never fitted. I just read that your back should be 45 degrees while on the hood and knee slightly bent while extended down

What picture? What bike? My P2?

I don't care about weight for flat crits. I also don't care much about "fits". I do care about aero and a short head tube is good to get low! Reasonable short cranks are good to pedal through corners, which is sometimes necessary to follow a fast lead out. With this bike I don't do centuries.

I'm not sure why you don't know this. Everyone knows that 808's and round tube frames cause an anti Kama tail design that causes turbulent flow and increases drag by a minimum of 12.19%. Explains everything that you are experiencing.

It's the red decals. Everyone know that red Zipp decals are slow.

You'd look much cooler on the bike path with a 10 inch flat handlebar and really tight jeans!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

OP: TL;DR.

But, is that C-dale for sale?

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

Op is def the new h20runner!

your floor is a mess and you lack matching stickers on the oven.
you should be banned from ST for at least a week.

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Fruit snacks are for winners

Lol!!!!

LOL....OK I will have to get one of you guys to come over and clean it up for me.

I wasn't aware of this but if my memory serves me correctly, the Tour De France riders I think many of them had a similar frame set like the Cannondale EVO(carbon version of aluminum) and they had like 404's on them.

So then the issue now remains, do I want to put the Cosmic Carbone's back on and actually have a road bike that may give me the best chance to keep up with some of the guys who have high testostorone and need to show me they can out ride me up a gentle hill or would I rather be a bit slower but look really slick. Either way the 808's seem pretty ridiculous on a road bike. Yes I know people do race on them but the vast majority of Riders I watched at Tour De France didn't have hoops that deep unless they were on a time trial bike

I think you brought up a valid point. Zipp decals are probably not as aerodynamic as someone wearing jeans over unshaved legs...lol

Maybe more like Kiley's Pube's alias. So an alias of an alias...?

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no sponsors | no races | nothing to see here

If I look at the pic of that bike for more than like 3 seconds it makes my eyes flicker, like when looking at one of those optical illusion things

For most people, having a frame that is as tall as their seat height is going to be too big, the height might be ok but the bike is going to be long.

No not selling it. If I sell this then I am stuck riding my speed concept all the time. I like this one because it is great for just tooling around the bike trails. I have to resist the temptation to take on another rider who wants to go fast fast fast through the corners.

I hope you have the matching kit for tooling around the bike paths. It always bothers me when people ride expensive bikes and have some shitty kit on the MUP.

Fair enough. Do you race? I find that having to spin up the really deep rims gives me too muscular legs.

"I'm not sure why you don't know this. Everyone knows that 808's and round tube frames cause an anti Kama tail design that causes turbulent flow and increases drag by a minimum of 12.19%. Explains everything that you are experiencing."


I called Zipp and they told me they never heard of such a thing you are describing above. Do you have any documentation or articles supporting this? I have seen plenty of 60mm dished rims on road bikes.

Are you joking?

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I'm Commander Shepard, and this is my favorite thread on the Citadel!

Well, is he isn't trolling, I would have loved to have listened to that conversation

I know very little about cycling so if JTtrig was being a smart A$$ then I guess I am gullible. People who don't have questions generally will most likely not find a reason to post threads. I am just trying to figure out the best methods for a road bike setup.

Ok. I was just wondering if that was sarcasm or not. There are a lot of people here who will help you. There are a few that won't. Keep asking questions and we will try to help.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Your bike looks very familiar.. where were you riding?

Yep I have already learned that. It's sad that you have some that will do their best to mislead and give you the wrong advice with intent of malice. I just put back my Cosmic Carbones. I have 25mm tires on a 18mm rim. Seems a bit huge for a thin rim.

Zipp 808s don't ride like you're going through mud and I don't think there's not a significant weight difference in the two wheels. Maybe the wheels need some bearing work? I'd find it odd that you'd notice those sorts of differences in the saddle on the sort of rides I imagine you doing between the two wheels. If anything you might notice the front end being a little more of a pain with an 80 vs. a 60 wheel, especially since you don't sound like an experienced bike handler... otherwise my 808s spin up as well as any 60 wheel I've ever ridden. I also tend to find Zipp hubs a bit flexy... but again just pedaling, accelerating, etc. isn't someplace I've ever noted 808s having issues.

The guy you tried to ride with sounds like a good rider, you sound like you need some more practice.

Damn. How are you gonna take it when a guy on a mountain bike on his way to the trails passes you? :D

"RUNNING VS CYCLING TO KEEP LEGS GIRLY LOOKING
marathonrunner Jul 10, 17 17:00 Post #1 of 69
As a runner, I have always had girly legs and girls just go crazy over them. But I am finding out that cycling alone will result in legs that look like they are inflated to 100psi. Is there anyway to avoid this? I am thinking as long as I do not consume over 2000 calories a day and I spin an easy gear my legs will stay thin.

I think there is no substitute for running as it is the fastest way to get and stay in shape. Any suggestions? I normally run every morning and then at night I do a 25 mile ride. "

OP can't be having THAT. Haven't you heard? The chicks dig his "girly legs."

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

  
So...what tires and tubes on each wheelset?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Maybe he can drop you on his old, shallow wheels, too.

So you did intervals in the morning and your legs felt sluggish on your ride? No wonder...... Didn't this occur to you?

Sure they are a little heavier than the 60mm wheels but you would possibly (maybe) only notice that under acceleration, and not when you get up to speed. You said you started getting tired after pulling for 2 min. That wasn't the wheels, that was you working harder not in a draft, and your morning workout taking its toll.

There is a reason and 808/disk is ran at the top triathlon levels and not something shallower (or whatever front wheel you prefer - HED, Enve, etc)

I am good on a flat and straight road but slow accelerating, not good at cornering, terrible on hills. My wheels spin forever and ever. I just give them a little nudge and they keep spinning and spinning and spinning and never stop.

lol...or how about a woman with a beach bike and a basket...yikes

 
Those 808's are the worst thing you could ever put on your road bike. Tell you what, I'll give you $200 for them, just to get them out of your way so you can get back to being the fastest muppet on the MUP.

Grand prix 4000 AND I am not sure about the tubes. I used to use the side wall color tubed GP4000 but got a lot of side flats. The chile or whatever you call that are much better

Same on both?

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

I do agree the intervals were tough in the morning. Actually our coach had us doing 1000m and we did 7 sets of them so by afternoon that could have affected my energy level. Had I rested 2 days which I really need to just take time off because I run 6 days a week, usually 8 to 10 miles a day, 6 if I am pressed for time. Cycling is a day to day decision and some days I don't ride at all if I am too busy.

Anyway, it would be interesting to see if I can just rest for two days no nothing, I think I could handle the hills much better. We are talking very gentle mini rolling hills and if you seen what they looked like bet many here would laugh.

But I switched back to the Carbone's based on the advice of Zipp who told me the 808's are really designed for a bigger rider who has longer legs and can produce higher watts. So in theory I can probably push 24mph on a flat but won't be able to hold it very long. My Trek Speed Concept, I got Zipp SC9 disc in rear and with the 808 in front I can do 24.3mph literally for miles on end unless there is a hill or moderate wind. I can do the same with the road bike but can't maintain 24.3. I am more like 21mph on the road bike. The weird thing about my Speed Concept, doing 25mph seems soooo much harder and more tiring. I can't believe 3/4 of a mph can be that much of a difference. With the 24.3mph I can spin a easy gear and reach that speed but to go 25mph I have to choose a higher more difficult gear that is draining.

JT I am going to put you on the ignore list so I won't have to see your posts. Please grow up. If you want to contribute fine but if you are going to mock and make fun of just to be a jerk, then please go someplace else.

So I looked back at the old Tour tests and lo and behold, 808's have an almost identical moment of inertia to the Mavic Cosmic Carbone SLR.

So what you are saying is that you felt the bike was sluggish because of the roughly 100g of extra total wheel weight of the Zipps.
The Mavic rear hub is lighter, that is all.
Perception bias rules your brain in this case.

I am not so sure about that. I can feel the difference and it is huge. I wouldn't have swapped out the wheels and brake pads if it was very close

I don't see any genuine questions or motivations in your posting. Just a bunch of shit about how you look, how the ladies go crazy, tooling around a path on 10k bikes, etc etc. Being blocked by a troll is pretty funny. Thanks!

1. Your roadbike setup looks like a mtbike setup. Your bars are higher than your seat?

2. Page 3 and nobody has pointed out the overwhelming dooshi-ness of riding balls out on a bike path?
Bike paths are for children, rollerbladers, and moms with strollers. A cyclist who rides a bike path like he's attacking off the front of the TdF is not a serious cyclist. He's just a dooshy public hazard who likes showing off on a bike path.

This one was my favorite. Sorry, dude, but this is total nonsense. Should have been pink. I've ridden 808s a few times on my road bike and they worked fabulously well, and none of this "couldn't spin them up", "lack the leg strength", "not hulk" crap applies.

But continue, by all means, please, continue!

-Eric

Triathlon Zen Master level reply right there. Muy bueno. :)

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

I agree and I do not ride fast on bike trails because of all the hazards. But this guy I sometimes ride with says he loves to practice cornering but he is foolish for racing into a blind corner. I have seen people on rollarblades going in the wrong lane, people walking in the wrong lane, kids stopped tieing shoes etc..

My bars are below my seat but not by much. Maybe I should have gotton a smaller frame.

Eric, I run everyday and to ride on the same day I run, I do think the running takes a lot out of me inspite of the fact it's been longer than 4 hours and recovered.

Today I went out and didn't run this morning but felt sluggish and tired. The one thing I did notice right off the bat, the handling through corners was definitely more precise and sharp. acceleration was also more crisp, hills were easier. The one thing I did notice, once I got up to speed it was hard to hold it. So I will say the 808's as tired as I was the previous day, once I got up to 23 to 24mph it felt like I was going slower. Today 20.5mph seemed so hard.

I really hope you are not trolling with all this and wasting everybody's time. I'll give the benefit of the doubt.

Don't worry about your speed day to day. There can be so many factors for how fast you are on a specific day. What you ate for breakfast, temperature, humidity, air pressure (yes, air pressure can have an affect, read the Platypus thread), wind (even slight) etc. Just go out and ride your bike.

If you really want to know how you are doing day to day get a power meter. It will tell you when you are fatigued much better than your speed. Can't hold the power you normally can today? Probably because of the running intervals you did earlier. Pushing solid power? Probably going on a bit fresher legs.

You seem to be into the tech of cycling so maybe a power meter would be right up your alley. When you start training smart with power you won't care about your speed on day to day rides.

Nope I am not a troll can assure you. But thanks for the info and yes a power meter definitely seems to be a great tool. This is no different than a runner using a heart rate monitor to gauge his/her level of fitness and to be able to make sure they are not running too fast for a specific key workout/race. i.e., one should never run more than 75% of their maximum heart rate for a full marathon, half marathons should be no more than 85% of ones max heart rate. These are generalizations and there are plenty of non elites and elites who have got away with pushing it.

But yes I should have gotten one of these to see if there is a difference in wheelsets so I am thinking. But then again maybe using a heart rate while going up a gentle hill can also tell me the same level of effort via heart rate. The watts measured while peddling up some of the gentle rolling hills I guess would make determining whether claims by certain wheel manufacturers are really what they claim

That is neither what you should be using a power meter for nor the correct way to go about assessing wheel manufacturer claims.

The post by Burhed you replied to correctly calls out some of the myriad variables that will prevent your proposed use case for a power meter from working well.

However, if this is what you want to spend some of your disposable income on, have at it.

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Eliot
blog thing - strava thing

I find it amazing how far people are willing to indulge your silliness on the off-chance that you're not trolling.
It's pretty damn simple. Wheels make a small difference. It's small. The differences you speak of are not about wheels. They are your imagination, or just nonsense to start up a silly thread.

If you're serious, based on the girly legs thread, this one, and your new "What will superbikes look like in year 3037" (with absurdly incompetent maths), I'm starting to worry for you. If you're trolling......let's see how long you last on this forum.

Is it possible you have the 808 front mounted backwards (skewer inserted the wrong way)? That would make the wheel rotate the wrong way and would definitely make it feel sluggish.

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''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson

You're sweating wheels too much, the 808s are fine on your road bike if you can manage to not get blown off the road. IMO, you're wrapped in all sorts of minutia regarding your wheels. Are the bearings good, they true, pads set up correctly... then just ride them.

At last someone is going to use science to hold Zipp accountable.
Are you going to have a gofundme page like the guys who did the aero testing? I would be in.