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USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning
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I'm surprised that this hasn't already appeared in the Forum.
Any responses or thoughts?
USAT has weathered some real storms in the past such as their very contentious experience with both WTC and ITU and I suspect they will survive this one as well.
It is my opinion that this will hurt Life Time Fitness more in the long run than it will USAT.




Dear USA Triathlon Key Stakeholder:

Greetings, I hope this finds you well and your season has so far proven to be both rewarding and enjoyable!

I am writing to address last week's announcement by Life Time Tri that it will no longer sanction its eight races with USA Triathlon. This announcement resulted in the circulation of misinformation, as well as several questions being posed to us. None of these items are new, and we have addressed them many times over the years.

However, as we continually strive to communicate openly and proactively with our community, I wanted to once again clarify some specific points:

The benefits of sanctioning with USA Triathlon are many.

  • Experience – USA Triathlon has sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the last 35 years, delivering athlete peace-of-mind by ensuring, among other things, industry-wide safety standards and high-quality event criteria.

  • Event Services – USA Triathlon offers an experienced and expert team to support race directors and event production companies with questions and issues, as well as provide certification, best practices, educational opportunities, and other resources.

  • Risk Management – Sanctioning ensures unmatched insurance protection designed specifically for multisport events – not gym memberships – to cover the event, the athlete, and the venue at the most nominal cost possible. Athletes (and their families) and race directors who have unfortunately needed to utilize this general liability and excess medical coverage, including in the tragic circumstances of catastrophic incidents, can personally attest to its irreplaceable importance. The costs incurred by USA Triathlon and our policy providers to cover claims and defend against unwarranted lawsuits have saved race directors tens of millions of dollars over the years.
Other points of clarification:

  • The cost for a USA Triathlon one-day membership is not a “hidden fee” as alleged by Life Time. Race directors are strongly encouraged to always notify athletes in advance about the requirement for either USA Triathlon annual or one-day membership.

  • Utilizing USA Triathlon Rules and Certified Officials does not result in “surprises” for athletes. In fact, just the opposite. Implementing penalties mid-race (i.e., penalty tents) actually does the following:

    • Removes the ability for any due process or realistic appeals by athletes – The process of assessing USA Triathlon penalties does not interfere with the athlete during competition, but instead allows the athlete to address any concerns about the violation after completing the race, and may result in the penalty being rescinded should a mistake be determined.

    • Threatens on-course safety – For sprint- and Olympic-distance age-group races, having officials on motorized vehicles directing athletes in real time to penalty tents can significantly decrease on-course safety, particularly on the bike leg. Short-course races for at-large age-group athletes differ considerably from long-course races, elite races, or age-group world championship races where penalty tents can all be more effectively integrated.

  • Regardless of claims to the contrary, customized event offerings such as the ability for athletes to choose their own wave/start time or have greater access to transition areas, are already being implemented at other sanctioned races and are not new concepts. There are many examples currently within USA Triathlon’s 4,000-plus sanctioned races where these approaches and other innovations have been successfully offered. Our goal as a sanctioning body is to be flexible and accommodate event-specific requests whenever possible, provided they do not compromise safety or the quality of experience for the athlete.
For competitive athletes, sanctioned races provide coveted points for USA Triathlon Regional and National Rankings (comprised of more than 37,039 athletes in 2016), including USA Triathlon All-American status. And only sanctioned races provide the opportunity to qualify for USA Triathlon National Championships and the chance to represent your country at ITU Age Group World Championships as a member of Team USA.

As the official National Governing Body (NGB) for the sport of triathlon in the United States, we are responsible for selecting and training teams for international competition including the Olympic and Paralympic Games. We are dedicated to supporting and growing youth and women’s participation in our sport. Our commitment to paratriathlon is perhaps the strongest and most successful in the world. We help educate first-time triathletes, as well as race directors, coaches and officials. And we have a very strong Safe Sport program, helping protect our members, including the most vulnerable.

The fees for one-day and annual memberships are recirculated back into the sport to accomplish all of this – and more – while fulfilling our mission to advance and promote the sport of triathlon. For example, this year we will award $60,000 in youth grants, directly assist high school programs and state championships in significant ways, and continue to support our NCAA Emerging Sport for Women initiative in order to reach full championship status.

Change for the sake of change is not a compelling strategy. Ultimately, the sport loses as a whole . . . a “strategy” that is not good for anyone.

As always, we welcome feedback, questions and concerns, so please feel free to contact me personally at barry.siff@usatriathlon.org. Our commitment to you and our great sport is unwavering, and we thank YOU for being such an important part of it.
Sincerely,



Barry Siff
USA Triathlon President
ITU Executive Board Member
CAMTRI Executive Board Member
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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not surprisingly, that response isn't really saying anything. unfortunately, USAT just isn't a ''value add'' for some athletes and/or races.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting. I have not had a chance to chime in the other thread when this was announced. This response from USAT is what I would expect. Just my 2c.
I applaud the effort by Lifetime. However, USAT is only one part of the problem. They really offer nothing substantial to the races at this point. Drug testing is none existent, so likely we have a sport that we can question whether it's clean on or not at PRO and AG level. Further, drafting is rampant and unenforced. Been in the sport for 10 years and have seen all from local races to Kona (broadcast only, not good enough for it, however, images are pretty telling).
The other half of the problem is still silent. ACTIVE.COM fees!!!!!! Where is the rocking the boat on that? That is what I think is a grand theft here. When will active.com be eliminated, put away?
Let's include that here. My 2016 IMAZ active.com fee was $80+, what is that all about?????
My 2c.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [atasic] [ In reply to ]
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atasic wrote:
Thanks for posting. I have not had a chance to chime in the other thread when this was announced. This response from USAT is what I would expect. Just my 2c.
I applaud the effort by Lifetime. However, USAT is only one part of the problem. They really offer nothing substantial to the races at this point. Drug testing is none existent, so likely we have a sport that we can question whether it's clean on or not at PRO and AG level. Further, drafting is rampant and unenforced. Been in the sport for 10 years and have seen all from local races to Kona (broadcast only, not good enough for it, however, images are pretty telling).
The other half of the problem is still silent. ACTIVE.COM fees!!!!!! Where is the rocking the boat on that? That is what I think is a grand theft here. When will active.com be eliminated, put away?
Let's include that here. My 2016 IMAZ active.com fee was $80+, what is that all about?????
My 2c.

This issue has been beaten to death on other threads. You need to be more generic: rather than saying active.com fees, you should use the term "registration agent fees" (or some such). Many races (especially in the Boston area where I live) do not use Active as their registration service. All these services charge a fee. The real issue is when the fee is identified. Some services (or race directors) will identify the fee up front. Others, including Active, wait until checkout.

Also, you're not going to eliminate the registration fee. If it's not explicitly called out, the fee will probably be built into the base cost.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for correcting me. Registration fees are more appropriate to include all. Agree. Upfront is better, still not acceptable. And I really don't care whether it has been beaten to death, no it has not been beaten enough as it is still alive and well. I would rather pay the money to RD for his race and let him decide how much money he/she wants to pay the "middle man" doing nothing. Market will fix that.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
The real issue is when the fee is identified.

that's half the issue. the other half is the size of the fee. for large race organizations this is often simply more entry fee: a large portion of the large fee is rebated back to the RD. this is why the RD is happy to keep letting a "full service" registration company keep on taking their registrations.

in the end, tho, this is short term thinking. everybody wants to protect his position. his income. his place. so the whole industry declines because nobody wants to consider doing things differently than they have been done in the past.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting USAT response. I think it is good and on point. I don't like what LT is doing and nor do i like them asking the USAT as thry do it. However, i also think usat is stale. Barry is new leading USAT and maybe he will help USAT become more relevant.

But, USAT, whether it is perfect or not, is working everyday to support triathlons. Active.com is not! They are a money sucking leech upon our sport that offers unwanted services in order to justify what they charge. i would love to see USAT and races end their relationship with them and have USAT add their own registration process that is included in their membership or one day fee.

I'm sure all of us could come up with other ideas to improve USAT, but getting rid of Active.com would sure go along way for me in increasing USAT's value.

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for that.

IMO the only valid point in the response from USAT is with regards to penalty tents for short course racing. Now that I think about, penalty tents will be a disaster for events like Lifetime Chicago. It's definitely best to just assess a time penalty and then leave the option for an appeal later. Maybe give the bike course marshals (all two of them) GoPros to help with the appeals process.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Thanks for that.

IMO the only valid point in the response from USAT is with regards to penalty tents for short course racing. Now that I think about, penalty tents will be a disaster for events like Lifetime Chicago. It's definitely best to just assess a time penalty and then leave the option for an appeal later. Maybe give the bike course marshals (all two of them) GoPros to help with the appeals process.

I love the go pro idea for officials!!!

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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It reads like less of a response and more of a reiteration of current USAT talking points. I.e., USAT is not mature enough at this point to accept any criticism and learn from it. Instead, they regurgitate their marketing spin.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
HandHeartCrown wrote:
The real issue is when the fee is identified.

that's half the issue. the other half is the size of the fee. for large race organizations this is often simply more entry fee: a large portion of the large fee is rebated back to the RD. this is why the RD is happy to keep letting a "full service" registration company keep on taking their registrations.
in the end, tho, this is short term thinking. everybody wants to protect his position. his income. his place. so the whole industry declines because nobody wants to consider doing things differently than they have been done in the past.
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i agree: the issue is the size of the fee. i seem to recall that active started with something like a $1 fee. or a tiny, set one. then it went to a percentage. but the original anger was over the added fee to the (any) race organizer's entry. for usat, at least when they first went to a contract with active, the anger seemed to be this: "hey, we pay you to do this. do it and don't bleed us to make business for someone else." it was phrased and addressed in a variety of ways, but the resistance was not effective, clearly.
peggy
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
It reads like less of a response and more of a reiteration of current USAT talking points. I.e., USAT is not mature enough at this point to accept any criticism and learn from it. Instead, they regurgitate their marketing spin.


Another off-putting thing is that it's littered with management jargon. "Utilizing," "proactively," "continually strive," etc.
Last edited by: trail: Jul 19, 17 9:12
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting.

I continue to believe USAT is going a great job! Since I only race USAT events, guess I do not need to worry about ever racing
a LTF event.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
HandHeartCrown wrote:
The real issue is when the fee is identified.


that's half the issue. the other half is the size of the fee. for large race organizations this is often simply more entry fee: a large portion of the large fee is rebated back to the RD. this is why the RD is happy to keep letting a "full service" registration company keep on taking their registrations.

in the end, tho, this is short term thinking. everybody wants to protect his position. his income. his place. so the whole industry declines because nobody wants to consider doing things differently than they have been done in the past.

Got it. I only race short-course and most of the fees are in the $6-9 range (or around 7-10%). As a dollar amount, I don't find this so bad, in the grand scheme of costs. $80, on the other hand, is a bit excessive.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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in my opinion, we have 2 problems, and i've expressed this many times. people don't always make decisions based on "fair percentages" based on the calculation. i put on a race in 1997 bringing back the US Triathlon Series after a 5 year hiatus. we tried to bring in a whole new crop of first timers. worked our asses off to do that. the USAT head ref penalized 25 percent of my athletes. "they'll know better next time."

okay. but being told you're a cheater is offensive. having that kiss at the end of registration, when you THINK you know the cost, but it turns out that's NOT the cost, that's offensive. thankfully USAT has moved past that kind of thinking, but they haven't entirely moved past it.

what LTF has decided to do may work out well. it may work out badly. barry makes valid points. but USAT has a responsibility. it is failing (in my opinion) to address the problems LTF is addressing.

one real way, one good way, to keep the LTFs of the future from making the decision LTF made is to address the issues.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
in my opinion, we have 2 problems, and i've expressed this many times. people don't always make decisions based on "fair percentages" based on the calculation. i put on a race in 1997 bringing back the US Triathlon Series after a 5 year hiatus. we tried to bring in a whole new crop of first timers. worked our asses off to do that. the USAT head ref penalized 25 percent of my athletes. "they'll know better next time."

okay. but being told you're a cheater is offensive. having that kiss at the end of registration, when you THINK you know the cost, but it turns out that's NOT the cost, that's offensive. thankfully USAT has moved past that kind of thinking, but they haven't entirely moved past it.

what LTF has decided to do may work out well. it may work out badly. barry makes valid points. but USAT has a responsibility. it is failing (in my opinion) to address the problems LTF is addressing.

one real way, one good way, to keep the LTFs of the future from making the decision LTF made is to address the issues.

Dan, that was your choice to have USAT officials!! Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Sanrafaeltri] [ In reply to ]
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+1 on USAT stepping up to handle registration without having additional fees. That would be exactly the kind of value that people could see right away.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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TL;DR = Bullshit.

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Experience – USA Triathlon has sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the last 35 years, delivering athlete peace-of-mind by ensuring, among other things, industry-wide safety standards and high-quality event criteria.

Bullshit. I jumped in one year to be RD of a collegiate club's triathlon. I got sanctioning by delivering precisely fuck-all apart from the fee to USAT. They asked no questions and assured jack shit.

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Event Services – USA Triathlon offers an experienced and expert team to support race directors and event production companies with questions and issues, as well as provide certification, best practices, educational opportunities, and other resources.
Bigger bullshit. The race I ran we had a situation: snow was in the forecast for the night before and the water temp was under 50 degrees. I called USAT to get some guidance on cancelling the swim. They told me it was up to me, and my judgement. Fuck you USAT, that's why I'm calling you. I'm a newbie, and looking for experience guidance and judgement. I got none of that.

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Risk Management – Sanctioning ensures unmatched insurance protection designed specifically for multisport events
Well. They did insure us here. But the risk managers at the University didn't deem their coverage sufficient, and got us additional insurance coverage. So I'm less upset about this, but I'm still going to say Bullshit.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
in my opinion, we have 2 problems, and i've expressed this many times. people don't always make decisions based on "fair percentages" based on the calculation. i put on a race in 1997 bringing back the US Triathlon Series after a 5 year hiatus. we tried to bring in a whole new crop of first timers. worked our asses off to do that. the USAT head ref penalized 25 percent of my athletes. "they'll know better next time."

okay. but being told you're a cheater is offensive. having that kiss at the end of registration, when you THINK you know the cost, but it turns out that's NOT the cost, that's offensive. thankfully USAT has moved past that kind of thinking, but they haven't entirely moved past it.

Staffing with a large multisport company has shown me another side to this sport... I've gotten to know some of the officials. I'm tight lipped in my discussions with them, but sometimes there are a lot of questionable penalties with some upset athletes. Most races don't have enough officials, which might not be a bad thing seeing how some officiate. Races done by other companies I've noted as an athlete, don't have USAT officials at all... so rules don't mean anything there.

Sanrafaeltri wrote:
But, USAT, whether it is perfect or not, is working everyday to support triathlons. Active.com is not! They are a money sucking leech upon our sport that offers unwanted services in order to justify what they charge. i would love to see USAT and races end their relationship with them and have USAT add their own registration process that is included in their membership or one day fee.

Love this idea! If USAT came up with a race registration vehicle to offer their RDs and subsequent athletes, that could be a real game changer!
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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If active is ditched, all other similar registration processing sites tack on the stupid processing fees. Has something to do with credit card companies. Now I'm not sure, but I think papal avoids this exorbitant fee.

As for USAt, with decline in partipants you need to cut staff and salaries as well. Lean out more... that stupid magazine with repetitive info every year, it's as if they have an AI bot printing it

What value is there to the athletes? I would expect bike/run distances as advertised to be on point, if not more for margin of error
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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I came in second in my age group at NYC Triathlon this weekend. I went to the Awards Ceremony where they made a big deal about being able to sign up on the spot for the “Championship” next year. I talked to a few other people and it didn’t seem to me like they were going to have a single taker across any of the age groups. Do they really think they are going to turn the NYC Triathlon into the Kona of Olympic distance? That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous. I think this is going to be an abysmal failure. I won’t even take my chances and sign up through the lottery for next year, and I’ve done it 3 years in a row. Like USAT said, if I can’t get a USAT score that will help me make All American, then I just as soon find a different local Olympic distance race where I can.

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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RallySavage wrote:

I came in second in my age group at NYC Triathlon this weekend. I went to the Awards Ceremony where they made a big deal about being able to sign up on the spot for the “Championship” next year. I talked to a few other people and it didn’t seem to me like they were going to have a single taker across any of the age groups. Do they really think they are going to turn the NYC Triathlon into the Kona of Olympic distance? That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous. I think this is going to be an abysmal failure. I won’t even take my chances and sign up through the lottery for next year, and I’ve done it 3 years in a row. Like USAT said, if I can’t get a USAT score that will help me make All American, then I just as soon find a different local Olympic distance race where I can.

Totally agree

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [JustinPB] [ In reply to ]
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I feel like I just bought a new vehicle.....and got stuck with the undercoating and doc fees.....every time I see the USAT charge on a race sign-up page.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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RallySavage wrote:
That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous.

Well, people do it for Kona (but triple the money) and 70.3 WC (but another 50% more money)...

So yea, it's a solid model.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [seeyouincourt] [ In reply to ]
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seeyouincourt wrote:
+1 on USAT stepping up to handle registration without having additional fees. That would be exactly the kind of value that people could see right away.

+2
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [xeon] [ In reply to ]
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xeon wrote:
Sanrafaeltri wrote:

i would love to see USAT and races end their relationship with them and have USAT add their own registration process that is included in their membership or one day fee.


Love this idea! If USAT came up with a race registration vehicle to offer their RDs and subsequent athletes, that could be a real game changer!


the quickest way for USAT to lose support of every strategic partner they have is to get into the various businesses of the rest of the industry. USAT started down this path about 7 years ago and it got an earful (i was in the room) from every major stakeholder.

everybody - registration companies, race directors, media, and others - honors USAT's place as the once national governing body deserving of shelter from competition. but that's only as good as USAT's performance of its job, and its reciprocal decision not to compete with the industry that does not compete with it. one USAT decides its going to get into every bit of business it wants, then its open season on the revenue stream USAT enjoys.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Jul 19, 17 11:36
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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USAT's letter is incredibly defensive... that doesn't convince athletes that they are adding value. What would resonate with athletes is USAT stepping up and saying,

"Hey, we hear you and we hear Life Time and we're going to do better. Here are the changes we are going to make that we think could appease the discontent, and continue to appease Dave over on ST (thanks Dave for your endless support! even if every one of your post says the same thing; thanks!). We're going to make sure the price you see at the beginning of registration is the price you pay. We're going to do work closer with WTC to see if they have suggestions for change. And yes, we'll do away with age groups and begin merit-based categories like they have with cycling, and listen to a panel of cyclists to see if we can avoid the pitfalls with that category based system. We're listening, evolving and we want to provide you with value you can identify when asked, 'what value does USAT add?' (other than end-of-the-year rankings - we can do better than that if that's the only value you think we're adding. sorry Dave - but thanks, too!). Yours, USAT."

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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"The fees for one-day and annual memberships are recirculated back into the sport"

And to pay a $362K salary to the head of USAT

WaPo article here
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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Kudos
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
RallySavage wrote:
That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous.


Well, people do it for Kona (but triple the money) and 70.3 WC (but another 50% more money)...

So yea, it's a solid model.

Perhaps a solid model. But the reality of what happened at Awards says that people aren't interested in a LTF Championship. Like I said, I didn't see a single person go over to the sign up table. The materials they gave us though said we had until Oct 27 to decide. So maybe folks will do it after they think about it once they get home. But I'm officially done with the NYC Tri for the other reasons I stated.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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I never saw that thread. Any chance you could PM me a quick synopsis? NYC Tri was on my bucket list.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Don't get me wrong. It's a fantastic event and I would encourage you to signup for it though the lottery, or podium at one of the qualifying events since it's on your bucket list. But for me, having done it 3 times already and not getting a USAT Score for it, I am not interested for next year.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It seems to me that might be short-term pain for long-term gain for USAT. Right now it looks as if the sport is dying. Probably because people are sick of being bled dry to go racing. If USAT can come in and provide services to race directors at lower prices, they can drive up participation, which would be to the benefit of their overall mission--more high caliber olympic athletes. Sure they'll piss off active.com in the interim, but I personally don't believe the sport needs a rent-seeking parasite like active.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [JustinPB] [ In reply to ]
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JustinPB wrote:
If USAT can come in and provide services to race directors at lower prices, they can drive up participation, which would be to the benefit of their overall mission.

are you also okay with somebody else coming in and providing sanctioning/membership/insurance services to RDs at lower prices?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. I don't have any problem with that. I have no particular attachment to USAT--as you may notice from my previous post they've done nothing for me.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [JustinPB] [ In reply to ]
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JustinPB wrote:
It seems to me that might be short-term pain for long-term gain for USAT. Right now it looks as if the sport is dying. Probably because people are sick of being bled dry to go racing. If USAT can come in and provide services to race directors at lower prices, they can drive up participation, which would be to the benefit of their overall mission--more high caliber olympic athletes. Sure they'll piss off active.com in the interim, but I personally don't believe the sport needs a rent-seeking parasite like active.

Ignoring the fact that triathlon is exploding in other parts of the world, don't you think that statement is hyperbole even for North America? Certainly there has been a retraction from its high point, but 'dying'?!! How many years do you think the patient has left before USAT pulls down the flag, triathlon is no longer an olympic sport, and there isn't a single triathlon left in the United States?
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
JustinPB wrote:
It seems to me that might be short-term pain for long-term gain for USAT. Right now it looks as if the sport is dying. Probably because people are sick of being bled dry to go racing. If USAT can come in and provide services to race directors at lower prices, they can drive up participation, which would be to the benefit of their overall mission--more high caliber olympic athletes. Sure they'll piss off active.com in the interim, but I personally don't believe the sport needs a rent-seeking parasite like active.


Ignoring the fact that triathlon is exploding in other parts of the world, don't you think that statement is hyperbole even for North America? Certainly there has been a retraction from its high point, but 'dying'?!! How many years do you think the patient has left before USAT pulls down the flag, triathlon is no longer an olympic sport, and there isn't a single triathlon left in the United States?

we had a much bigger retraction than this, on a percentage basis, in the 1990s.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it's probably hyperbole. But if I were in charge of USAT I'd certainly be worried about general trends. Shrinking participation numbers, consolidation of races (my perception is that participation has been changing from racing 6-10 times a year at smaller locally run races, to 1-3 branded destination races), big promoters looking elsewhere for sanctioning. All that would definitely concern me if I were USAT.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
USAT's letter is incredibly defensive... that doesn't convince athletes that they are adding value. What would resonate with athletes is USAT stepping up and saying,

"Hey, we hear you and we hear Life Time and we're going to do better. Here are the changes we are going to make that we think could appease the discontent, and continue to appease Dave over on ST (thanks Dave for your endless support! even if every one of your post says the same thing; thanks!). We're going to make sure the price you see at the beginning of registration is the price you pay. We're going to do work closer with WTC to see if they have suggestions for change. And yes, we'll do away with age groups and begin merit-based categories like they have with cycling, and listen to a panel of cyclists to see if we can avoid the pitfalls with that category based system. We're listening, evolving and we want to provide you with value you can identify when asked, 'what value does USAT add?' (other than end-of-the-year rankings - we can do better than that if that's the only value you think we're adding. sorry Dave - but thanks, too!). Yours, USAT."

Am I famous? :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [JustinPB] [ In reply to ]
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JustinPB wrote:
Yeah, it's probably hyperbole. But if I were in charge of USAT I'd certainly be worried about general trends. Shrinking participation numbers, consolidation of races (my perception is that participation has been changing from racing 6-10 times a year at smaller locally run races, to 1-3 branded destination races), big promoters looking elsewhere for sanctioning. All that would definitely concern me if I were USAT.

Yes, USAT should be worried. The sport can change in another direction, indeed it arguably has changed as you noted. Eventually it could even outgrow USAT. But even then I would expect that USAT would end up 'leading from behind' if for no other reason then to continue justifying their own non-profit paychecks.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"the quickest way for USAT to lose support of every strategic partner they have is to get into the various businesses of the rest of the industry. USAT started down this path about 7 years ago and it got an earful (i was in the room) from every major stakeholder.

everybody - registration companies, race directors, media, and others - honors USAT's place as the once national governing body deserving of shelter from competition. but that's only as good as USAT's performance of its job, and its reciprocal decision not to compete with the industry that does not compete with it. one USAT decides its going to get into every bit of business it wants, then its open season on the revenue stream USAT enjoys."




This is the kind of thing that so many here are not thinking about or don't even have awareness to consider. There's a lot of bitching and moaning about fees this and extra charges that, didn't do anything here, did way too much penalizing there.

Everyone seems to have a bead on how USAT is screwing the pooch. Everyone seems to know how this SHOULD be done. And the part I love best is the implication that USAT doesn't give a rats ass about the athletes.

And yet, very few here, outside of Slowman, have much insight or situational awareness to make such assessments. That and a lot of you seem to think races and everything attached just magically happen without cost. Either that or you seem to think the various race orgs, registration entities, USAT, etc. are just plucking their various costs and fees out of thin air, with an eye to gouging the athletes just to make a buck. I sure as hell don't have the insight to make that determination, and as far as I've seen...none of you doing the bitching do either. The costs are going to be allotted somewhere, whether in discrete fees that we see at registration, or hidden in the overall race cost.

Any asshat can take pot shots at "they". How about being constructive? How about getting involved instead of just bitching and acting like you have some magic understanding of how it could all be perfect.

I get it. I'm competing again and the costs of this sport are crazy to me. I don't think USAT is perfect. But I also don't know that I think Lifetime's approach is good overall for the sport. I just refuse to sit out here like a petulant child and not at least try to be part of the solution. There are a lot of ways to do that.

Having sat in a USAT town hall meeting at Du Nats last month, its abundantly clear that USAT understands the issues and balances they have to wrestle with. They have a lot of competing priorities and not any of them will get their desired "perfect" answer. But it was clear to me that they are trying to make the athlete's experience better and do the necessary things to encourage the growth and overall health of multisport in the U.S.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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TriBriGuy wrote:
"the quickest way for USAT to lose support of every strategic partner they have is to get into the various businesses of the rest of the industry. USAT started down this path about 7 years ago and it got an earful (i was in the room) from every major stakeholder.

everybody - registration companies, race directors, media, and others - honors USAT's place as the once national governing body deserving of shelter from competition. but that's only as good as USAT's performance of its job, and its reciprocal decision not to compete with the industry that does not compete with it. one USAT decides its going to get into every bit of business it wants, then its open season on the revenue stream USAT enjoys."




This is the kind of thing that so many here are not thinking about or don't even have awareness to consider. There's a lot of bitching and moaning about fees this and extra charges that, didn't do anything here, did way too much penalizing there.

Everyone seems to have a bead on how USAT is screwing the pooch. Everyone seems to know how this SHOULD be done. And the part I love best is the implication that USAT doesn't give a rats ass about the athletes.

And yet, very few here, outside of Slowman, have much insight or situational awareness to make such assessments. That and a lot of you seem to think races and everything attached just magically happen without cost. Either that or you seem to think the various race orgs, registration entities, USAT, etc. are just plucking their various costs and fees out of thin air, with an eye to gouging the athletes just to make a buck. I sure as hell don't have the insight to make that determination, and as far as I've seen...none of you doing the bitching do either. The costs are going to be allotted somewhere, whether in discrete fees that we see at registration, or hidden in the overall race cost.

Any asshat can take pot shots at "they". How about being constructive? How about getting involved instead of just bitching and acting like you have some magic understanding of how it could all be perfect.

I get it. I'm competing again and the costs of this sport are crazy to me. I don't think USAT is perfect. But I also don't know that I think Lifetime's approach is good overall for the sport. I just refuse to sit out here like a petulant child and not at least try to be part of the solution. There are a lot of ways to do that.

Having sat in a USAT town hall meeting at Du Nats last month, its abundantly clear that USAT understands the issues and balances they have to wrestle with. They have a lot of competing priorities and not any of them will get their desired "perfect" answer. But it was clear to me that they are trying to make the athlete's experience better and do the necessary things to encourage the growth and overall health of multisport in the U.S.

great post, hope to see you in Penticton in a month

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Why does it have to be getting into other various business models. It's just the one: registration back end so there are no add-on fees above membership or the one-day fee. Who is even going to care about USAT giving such an option other than Active.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [seeyouincourt] [ In reply to ]
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seeyouincourt wrote:
Why does it have to be getting into other various business models. It's just the one: registration back end so there are no add-on fees above membership or the one-day fee. Who is even going to care about USAT giving such an option other than Active.

Events.com, Eventbrite, ChronoTrack, IMAthlete, RaceIt, BikeReg and a dozen other companies, who'd turn right around and tack insurance as an option to their services if USAT got into their revenue streams.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Big difference between back-end registration services and all the other stuff. Active is going to offer insurance? Nope. Active is going to start sanctioning it doing races? Nope. Active already has membership, and from I can tell they mostly trick people into becoming members.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Infamous
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [TriBriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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TriBriGuy wrote:

Having sat in a USAT town hall meeting at Du Nats last month, its abundantly clear that USAT understands the issues and balances they have to wrestle with. They have a lot of competing priorities and not any of them will get their desired "perfect" answer. But it was clear to me that they are trying to make the athlete's experience better and do the necessary things to encourage the growth and overall health of multisport in the U.S.

I agree. I was at the town hall and peppered Tim Yount with questions. He spent a lot of time answering everyone's questions. I didn't detect any stonewallingfrom him. I think they are trying to expand triathlon's (and duathlon's) reach. Are they doing the right "stuff"? Are they doing enough? I don't know.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not so sure it's that easy to get into the insurance game. You know, laws and stuff.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
not surprisingly, that response isn't really saying anything. unfortunately, USAT just isn't a ''value add'' for some athletes and/or races.

Agreed. For some of us (h20fun, myself), USAT provided a lot. But, we're participating in Nationals and Worlds and "enjoy" (for lack of a better word) the rankings. Nothing wrong there.

But for a majority of participants, especially the weekend warriors, they may not even know what USAT is or what it does. Two recent examples.

Two weekends ago, I did a small USAT sanctioned sprint triathlon in semi-rural Maine. 68 individuals and six relay teams participated. The LAST finisher was a 25 year old guy who rode a knobby wheeled mountain bike. I chatted with his mother while waiting for him to finish. This was his first triathlon and he was out to have fun. Given the size of the race, he actually placed first in his AG. When he received his award, he had the biggest smile on his face and received the loudest applause. I doubt he knew what USAT was even though he paid them $15 when he entered.

I raced the Draft Legal Duathlon in Bend. Coming up to the finish area, I passed a young guy who was definitely in pain. I met him hiding in the shade after the race and chatted. He was 19 years old and a Harvard undergrad. He specialized in track cycling and was not a runner but decided to race for the experience. This was his first duathlon and he said he had a blast. Again, other than being the host, I doubt he knew what USAT was.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps participation in the sport hasn't dropped, but rather from races you pay for, which used to be half the cost. I am seeing many groups here in SD setting up their own races. Cost is free, just bring something for potluck BBQ after. People 'white elephant' prizes they got from other fitness events to award the winner. Timing is ghetto... Cellphone timer and a clipboard to write times down. Many of these people hate triathletes due to elitist nature, but do want to participate
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HandHeartCrown] [ In reply to ]
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HandHeartCrown wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
not surprisingly, that response isn't really saying anything. unfortunately, USAT just isn't a ''value add'' for some athletes and/or races.


Agreed. For some of us (h20fun, myself), USAT provided a lot. But, we're participating in Nationals and Worlds and "enjoy" (for lack of a better word) the rankings. Nothing wrong there.

But for a majority of participants, especially the weekend warriors, they may not even know what USAT is or what it does. Two recent examples.

Two weekends ago, I did a small USAT sanctioned sprint triathlon in semi-rural Maine. 68 individuals and six relay teams participated. The LAST finisher was a 25 year old guy who rode a knobby wheeled mountain bike. I chatted with his mother while waiting for him to finish. This was his first triathlon and he was out to have fun. Given the size of the race, he actually placed first in his AG. When he received his award, he had the biggest smile on his face and received the loudest applause. I doubt he knew what USAT was even though he paid them $15 when he entered.

I raced the Draft Legal Duathlon in Bend. Coming up to the finish area, I passed a young guy who was definitely in pain. I met him hiding in the shade after the race and chatted. He was 19 years old and a Harvard undergrad. He specialized in track cycling and was not a runner but decided to race for the experience. This was his first duathlon and he said he had a blast. Again, other than being the host, I doubt he knew what USAT was.

Wow, there are two of us. Will I see you in Penticton?

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
Perhaps participation in the sport hasn't dropped, but rather from races you pay for, which used to be half the cost. I am seeing many groups here in SD setting up their own races. Cost is free, just bring something for potluck BBQ after. People 'white elephant' prizes they got from other fitness events to award the winner. Timing is ghetto... Cellphone timer and a clipboard to write times down. Many of these people hate triathletes due to elitist nature, but do want to participate

If folks I saw at races were like the few vocals on ST, I would find another sport also. Luckily, I have yet, in all my years of racing, found any of the negative energy against USAT at a race.

It is great people have options. Do a color run. etc. There are reasons in the USAT rankings the majority do not race the minimum number to be ranked. Just not their interest.

Not in all areas is the sport down. The last two USAP races sold out. That as not happened for years.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
JustinPB wrote:
If USAT can come in and provide services to race directors at lower prices, they can drive up participation, which would be to the benefit of their overall mission.


are you also okay with somebody else coming in and providing sanctioning/membership/insurance services to RDs at lower prices?

As a race director, my answer is YES! I also would favor paying a higher price to sanction if it resulted in a lower one day fee for participants. I would like to see the fee get down to $10 or less. Perhaps a little bit of belt tightening and staff reduction at the corporate level could help lower the one-day fees?
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Dan (& others who may know)-
What are the differences between USAT and other sanctioning bodies?
What is TriCanada doing, offering and charging?

I gladly admit I am a mushroom on this one (in the dark and shit on...)
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
RallySavage wrote:
That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous.

Well, people do it for Kona (but triple the money) and 70.3 WC (but another 50% more money)...

So yea, it's a solid model.

I just paid for WC 70.3 on the spot and was thrilled to be able to.

But you cannot replicate one part of the strategy and call it a solid model. Without me pointing them out, I'm sure you can identify all the ways in which the LT championship is different than IM championship and these differences are what makes it a solid model and make it so one enters an IM race with a goal of qualifying for the WC. LT has to get the hard parts of the model correct before they can do the easy part, which is charging people money on the spot for a championship race.

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
xeon wrote:
Sanrafaeltri wrote:

i would love to see USAT and races end their relationship with them and have USAT add their own registration process that is included in their membership or one day fee.


Love this idea! If USAT came up with a race registration vehicle to offer their RDs and subsequent athletes, that could be a real game changer!


the quickest way for USAT to lose support of every strategic partner they have is to get into the various businesses of the rest of the industry. USAT started down this path about 7 years ago and it got an earful (i was in the room) from every major stakeholder.

everybody - registration companies, race directors, media, and others - honors USAT's place as the once national governing body deserving of shelter from competition. but that's only as good as USAT's performance of its job, and its reciprocal decision not to compete with the industry that does not compete with it. one USAT decides its going to get into every bit of business it wants, then its open season on the revenue stream USAT enjoys.

Slowman, of course others would object to USAT doing payment processing. i bet GM and Ford object toTesla making cars too. but market economies thrive off competition and market entrants who have a competitive advantage (be it a brand, channel relationships, economies of scale, etc) are smart to use their advantage to offer a service in a market where the competition is vulnerable.

Your argument seems superficial if you are relying on the reaction of profit driven companies who don't want their revenues to go down. i do agree thst USAT would fail if they entered every possible service market related to triathlons. But payment processing is one i could see them doing better than active.com as they already do many of the "value add" services Active provides and therefore USAT's variable cost for doing payment processing is less and in fact leverages their fixed cost across a greater base.

2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [ In reply to ]
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One thing to consider from the RD side. If they roll the fees into the registration their race is going to appear more expensive to enter.

If people have a choice between a race costing $245 but with hidden fees(but coming out to $275 after fees) and $275 inclusive they'll probably consider the first race a less expensive option even though the cost is ultimately the same.

The perception of the cost of race 2 is higher.

Do RD's want to take the risk of driving people away by wrapping the fees in? Or do they want to appear less expensive and make the bad guy the registration company?

IIRC FFBoots did this for one/some of his races. Someone more energetic than I can search the archives if they want to find out what happened to his registration #'s.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Last edited by: desert dude: Jul 19, 17 16:51
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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desert dude wrote:
One thing to consider from the RD side. If they roll the fees into the registration their race is going to appear more expensive to enter.

If people have a choice between a race costing $245 but with hidden fees(but coming out to $275 after fees) and $275 inclusive they'll probably consider the first race a less expensive option even though the cost is ultimately the same.

The perception of the cost of race 2 is higher.

Do RD's want to take the risk of driving people away by wrapping the fees in? Or do they want to appear less expensive and make the bad guy the registration company?

IIRC FFBoots did this for one/some of his races. Someone more energetic than I can search the archives if they want to find out what happened to his registration #'s.

Most of the RD's I race with give you the option still to send in a paper entry, so one can totally bypass fees like active or credit card. Pretty simple for the RD to do if they really care about their customers.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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The entry fee to our SwimRun NC race is $350 for a team of 2. Basically $175 per athlete for a memorable race that last 4 to 6 hours depending how fast you are. There is no registration fee added on, we eat it (pay it from your registration), no additional insurance (again gets pulled from your entry fee), and we do not charge you for race photos either.

Herbert
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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This may be a totally stupid question.

But what is the registration fees for race for? Is it easier for RD's?

or I guess I'm asking why is it easier or can RD not just send google doc type registration?

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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The money the race registration site takes for handling the registration and hosting it. Plus giving race directors various tools such as volunteer registration etc.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
The entry fee to our SwimRun NC race is $350 for a team of 2. Basically $175 per athlete for a memorable race that last 4 to 6 hours depending how fast you are. There is no registration fee added on, we eat it (pay it from your registration), no additional insurance (again gets pulled from your entry fee), and we do not charge you for race photos either.

Herbert

No one "eats" it. Are you saying the event loses real money? No way.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Thx and yeah that makes sense.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
If active is ditched, all other similar registration processing sites tack on the stupid processing fees. Has something to do with credit card companies. Now I'm not sure, but I think papal avoids this exorbitant fee.

As for USAt, with decline in partipants you need to cut staff and salaries as well. Lean out more... that stupid magazine with repetitive info every year, it's as if they have an AI bot printing it

What value is there to the athletes? I would expect bike/run distances as advertised to be on point, if not more for margin of error

PayPal can be even worse in terms of the vig they charge.
Large organizations can often negotiate with their processor for beneficial terms (and will get the best deal on volume anyway).
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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You are not paying attention. This could easily be a fee that we add on for the racers to pay, but we choose not to do it. No one said anything about losing money.

h2ofun wrote:
Herbert wrote:
The entry fee to our SwimRun NC race is $350 for a team of 2. Basically $175 per athlete for a memorable race that last 4 to 6 hours depending how fast you are. There is no registration fee added on, we eat it (pay it from your registration), no additional insurance (again gets pulled from your entry fee), and we do not charge you for race photos either.

Herbert

No one "eats" it. Are you saying the event loses real money? No way.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [SommerSports] [ In reply to ]
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SommerSports,

I am curious to hear your perspective as an RD. Does USAT provide any tangible benefits to you?

As a participant, the only thing i differentiate are ironman races vs. iron-distance races.

Being a bit hypocritical, I never cared for USAT fees but do seek out UCI events for points, even though I am not at all competitive.
Last edited by: bloodyshogun: Jul 19, 17 19:36
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [bloodyshogun] [ In reply to ]
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Not to put words into their mouth, but as a local who races SommerSports events (which are very well run btw) I doubt they're big enough to self-insure or go through the hassle of procuring insurance outside of USAT.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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Ah, another long winded email from Barry Siff. At least he tries to give you $15 worth of fluff every now and then.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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RallySavage wrote:

I came in second in my age group at NYC Triathlon this weekend. I went to the Awards Ceremony where they made a big deal about being able to sign up on the spot for the “Championship” next year. I talked to a few other people and it didn’t seem to me like they were going to have a single taker across any of the age groups. Do they really think they are going to turn the NYC Triathlon into the Kona of Olympic distance? That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous. I think this is going to be an abysmal failure. I won’t even take my chances and sign up through the lottery for next year, and I’ve done it 3 years in a row. Like USAT said, if I can’t get a USAT score that will help me make All American, then I just as soon find a different local Olympic distance race where I can.

Since you have done it 3 years in a row, you know its an "event" and not a race.


NYC is a terrible place for a triathlon Championship. Now if they put on a duathlon Championship there, that would be awesome.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Will I see you in Penticton?
---

I though that you only do USAT events.






Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
You are not paying attention. This could easily be a fee that we add on for the racers to pay, but we choose not to do it. No one said anything about losing money.

h2ofun wrote:
Herbert wrote:
The entry fee to our SwimRun NC race is $350 for a team of 2. Basically $175 per athlete for a memorable race that last 4 to 6 hours depending how fast you are. There is no registration fee added on, we eat it (pay it from your registration), no additional insurance (again gets pulled from your entry fee), and we do not charge you for race photos either.

Herbert


No one "eats" it. Are you saying the event loses real money? No way.

To say this is a fee the racers are not paying is, well, .....

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Tri-Banter] [ In reply to ]
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Tri-Banter wrote:
Will I see you in Penticton?
---

I though that you only do USAT events.

Let's see, I get USAT ranking points from the event, so :)

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure why I even engage with you, as you hear what you want to hear.

The point was that we could have added on the entry fee after the fact and we chose not to do so.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
NYC is a terrible place for a triathlon Championship. Now if they put on a duathlon Championship there, that would be awesome.

Agreed on the first part but not sure on the second. The bike course at NYC is not very challenging, so stronger bikers as well as stronger swimmers may avoid it as well.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
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B.McMaster wrote:
RallySavage wrote:

I came in second in my age group at NYC Triathlon this weekend. I went to the Awards Ceremony where they made a big deal about being able to sign up on the spot for the “Championship” next year. I talked to a few other people and it didn’t seem to me like they were going to have a single taker across any of the age groups. Do they really think they are going to turn the NYC Triathlon into the Kona of Olympic distance? That people are going to fork over $300+ on the spot for a race 12 months away. It’s ridiculous. I think this is going to be an abysmal failure. I won’t even take my chances and sign up through the lottery for next year, and I’ve done it 3 years in a row. Like USAT said, if I can’t get a USAT score that will help me make All American, then I just as soon find a different local Olympic distance race where I can.


Since you have done it 3 years in a row, you know its an "event" and not a race.


NYC is a terrible place for a triathlon Championship. Now if they put on a duathlon Championship there, that would be awesome.

Well, it certainly felt like a race to me when I was pushing myself to the limit! But I get you main point, it's not a good venue for a championship race. Particularly with the changing currents in the Hudson across the start, and the different transition areas which change the amount of time you run to transition. Also, there is a least 2 hours separating the first wave form the last, which will make for much different air temperatures. I don't see how they can change any of that for next year. So at the very best, it's only a championship within your age group. Your not competing with other age group for overall placement.


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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it sounds like the athlete still pays the fee, it's just rolled into the registration cost. I run registration for a swim program and we use Active. Active gives us a choice. We can "absorb" Actives fee so that the registrant just pays for one line item, the swim-team registration. Or we have two line items at check-out: the swim-team registration and the Active fee. But in the former all we do is is raise our price to account for Active's cut, so in reality the consumer is paying for Active, it's just not as obvious in the former case.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [BlackStumpGumby] [ In reply to ]
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Of course does the athlete pay for it, that is what the entry fee is for. To pay for various fees and costs. But we do not "double dip."

In fact no one involved in the race takes money. No salary and no gas money. The only money I received from the race was for stuff I paid for with my personal money. IE, all the Boco Gear technical trucker hats for the athletes. Basically all goes back to the race and to the athletes. And what is left over goes to the NC park system.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)

Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.

29 years and counting
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [BlackStumpGumby] [ In reply to ]
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BlackStumpGumby wrote:
in the former all we do is is raise our price to account for Active's cut, so in reality the consumer is paying for Active, it's just not as obvious in the former case.

the issue you guys are debating is drip pricing. it might not be a problem for you, but for some folks (me, for example) drip pricing is offensive. it's even illegal in some countries (australia).

now, you take that australia example, it's been a huge ironman success over the last half-dozen years, and drip pricing isn't allowed. you have to disclose the entire price in the beginning of a transaction, and even in your advertising. so, that hasn't seemed to keep ironman from flourishing. what it may do is keep companies from loading up the "fees" at the end.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
BlackStumpGumby wrote:
in the former all we do is is raise our price to account for Active's cut, so in reality the consumer is paying for Active, it's just not as obvious in the former case.


the issue you guys are debating is drip pricing. it might not be a problem for you, but for some folks (me, for example) drip pricing is offensive. it's even illegal in some countries (australia).

now, you take that australia example, it's been a huge ironman success over the last half-dozen years, and drip pricing isn't allowed. you have to disclose the entire price in the beginning of a transaction, and even in your advertising. so, that hasn't seemed to keep ironman from flourishing. what it may do is keep companies from loading up the "fees" at the end.

are you implying that the lack of drip pricing is (even somewhat) responsible for IM's success in Australia?

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
BlackStumpGumby wrote:
in the former all we do is is raise our price to account for Active's cut, so in reality the consumer is paying for Active, it's just not as obvious in the former case.


the issue you guys are debating is drip pricing. it might not be a problem for you, but for some folks (me, for example) drip pricing is offensive. it's even illegal in some countries (australia).

It probably should be illegal. There's a fair amount of evidence in behavioral economics that suggest that hidden fees increase consumer demand because of the initial perception of a lower price. Of course here in the US we routinely use the ultimate in drip pricing: the sales tax.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [milesthedog] [ In reply to ]
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milesthedog wrote:
are you implying that the lack of drip pricing is (even somewhat) responsible for IM's success in Australia?

i'm saying the lack of drip pricing doesn't seem to be hurting in australia. some of the folks here seem worried that if they absorb the fees into their price it will appear as if they're higher priced. i wrote about my local tire shop a few months ago, that sweeps almost all competition in our half-million population area away, and throws all convention aside while doing so (including drip pricing).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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So what's the benefit of RDs going with Active? Do they do it purely so they can take a cut of the Registration fee? I'm particularly interested in why independent races would use Active, when as consumers, we will enter a particular race regardless of who runs the online registration. Is it simply that quid pro quo?

29 years and counting
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i'm saying the lack of drip pricing doesn't seem to be hurting in australia. some of the folks here seem worried that if they absorb the fees into their price it will appear as if they're higher priced.


thanks for the clarification - that is compelling reasoning for letting go of anxiety for the mere appearance of a price increase.


reminds me of a friend's father who owned a grocery store in WY. The father never offered sales, because he found it insulting to pretend to offer a lower price up front, but then for that discounted price to get absorbed by other products in the store, so the customer was paying more at the counter - not perfect logic, but I can respect his bucking of preying on consumer psychology/behavior - this was a guy who in 2002 was using the reasoning that if a volcano went off tomorrow that released more CO2 than all fuel burning in history, that this somehow proves that climate change is not man made. I think owning property in WY and scientific reasoning are correlated (in one direction or another; moderated by ego).

wovebike.com | Wove on instagram
Last edited by: milesthedog: Jul 20, 17 7:06
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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So what's the benefit of RDs going with Active?

While I can't list every advantage some I noticed a few things from my friends' race production company last summer.

Ease of payment - whatever online company he used cut him a check - their fee. It was auto deposited weekly iirc

Database management - with a ton of races who ever enetered which race was auto populated to that race. He just woke up, logged on and had a list of everyone entered, which age group, name, email, address, USAT # & exp date, emergency contact etc. He could easily send event specific info out to all the racers. They also didn't have to hand enter any data except for onsite registration (mainly 5k-half marathons)

He could merge all his entrants into a common data base and slice it many different ways. Made analytics & marketing stuff way easier.

Save (his) time so he can focus on permitting, new venues, etc

There were other things but I don't remember all the benefits

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [BlackStumpGumby] [ In reply to ]
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BlackStumpGumby wrote:
Perhaps I'm not understanding what you're saying, but it sounds like the athlete still pays the fee, it's just rolled into the registration cost. I run registration for a swim program and we use Active. Active gives us a choice. We can "absorb" Actives fee so that the registrant just pays for one line item, the swim-team registration. Or we have two line items at check-out: the swim-team registration and the Active fee. But in the former all we do is is raise our price to account for Active's cut, so in reality the consumer is paying for Active, it's just not as obvious in the former case.

Yep, I love when some try to say they do not charge fees, or do not hide them or or or. What you do is what I also did was I was an RD for a race. Since we allowed mail registration, we did not stick everyone with the hidden registration fee.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Jorgan] [ In reply to ]
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Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.

Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.


Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.

So the races you do have no way to enforce the USAT rules? Seems like those races should not be USAT sanctioned then.

Also - Given the lack of officials, I wonder what happens when there is an insurance claim? If I were the insurance carrier, I'll decline on the stop if no one was enforcing the rules.

As an example - Lets say a bike doesn't have the bar plugs in and that rider crashes and punctures their body on that bar. USAT official should have caught that. If they are not there, who could. Why would the insurance carrier pay out if the race didn't enforce the rules....
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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I see them as overhead. I'm not sure what they do other than collect fees. If I am wrong they have a perception issue.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Slowman wrote:
in my opinion, we have 2 problems, and i've expressed this many times. people don't always make decisions based on "fair percentages" based on the calculation. i put on a race in 1997 bringing back the US Triathlon Series after a 5 year hiatus. we tried to bring in a whole new crop of first timers. worked our asses off to do that. the USAT head ref penalized 25 percent of my athletes. "they'll know better next time."

okay. but being told you're a cheater is offensive. having that kiss at the end of registration, when you THINK you know the cost, but it turns out that's NOT the cost, that's offensive. thankfully USAT has moved past that kind of thinking, but they haven't entirely moved past it.

what LTF has decided to do may work out well. it may work out badly. barry makes valid points. but USAT has a responsibility. it is failing (in my opinion) to address the problems LTF is addressing.

one real way, one good way, to keep the LTFs of the future from making the decision LTF made is to address the issues.


Dan, that was your choice to have USAT officials!! Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)

Dave:
This was 20 years ago,1997, and Dan was bringing back the USTS series by putting on one race in Oceanside CA, using our Quintana Roo staff to get it going. In those days, there really wasn't much in the way of self-insurance, and the City of Oceanside required a big insurance policy. Quite frankly, all of us at QR and everybody we got to help, were pushed to limit and didn't have time to deal with re-inventing the insurance wheel. USAT sanctioning (insurance) came along with their refs. We had pros, we had a prize purse, and at that point, the officials were a pretty good idea. We didn't need them DQ'ing all the rookies, but that's a lesson we learned along the way.

Karen ST Concierge
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.


Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.


I've also been at multiple USAT sanctioned events that didn't appear to have any USAT officials present in transition or on the course. I'm not fine with that, but I tolerate it at events which I know to be generally safe and where the majority of my peers attempt to follow the rules even though there are likely no officials to bust them.

I don't have a problem paying the USAT annual membership. It's insignificant in my total yearly budget for endurance sports. I do have an issue if I believe that USAT isn't paying attention to members like me.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jul 20, 17 14:38
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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So a couple of thoughts/issues. A) I dont think there are enough usat officials to actually officiate *every* usat event. B) Now should that be a requirement to get race sanctioning....i would say yes. C) So then it becomes a game of race/sanctioning body juggling how to handle that situation.

Now I think the problem with forcing a race to have officials is actually the officials themselves. Or more directly, the community of triathletes that simply doesn't step up and fill that officials void. And I get why many don't officiate. If I was not an coach, I would actually officiate, as I've sat through the class. I've just not wanted to go through the conflict of interest. Maybe we could get more bike mechanics/runners to do it, etc. But officiating is freaking hard, and then of course you as the athletes *NEVER* break a rule. You were never in their draft zone, etc., so you get to argue/discuss the issue, and so officials have to have a thick skin to do the job effectively (which I think is likely the biggest reason why people dont do it).

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I get USAT ranking points from the event
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Citation? Because-








Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.


Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.


I've also been at multiple USAT sanctioned events that didn't appear to have any USAT officials present in transition or on the course. I'm not fine with that, but I tolerate it at events which I know to be generally safe and where the majority of my peers attempt to follow the rules even though there are likely no officials to bust them.

I don't have a problem paying the USAT annual membership. It's insignificant in my total yearly budget for endurance sports. I do have an issue if I believe that USAT isn't paying attention to members like me.

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Athletes do give... the $15 each to be in a sanction USAT race. USAT should ensure a race official is there if it's going to be a sanctioned race.

-Tony Zamora
http://www.endorphinhub.com
USA Triathlon Level 2
Certified Coach
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....

Our paying $$$ for events is not helping? I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer our time nor should would be expected to become race officials. Isn't that why we pay $$$?

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....


Our paying $$$ for events is not helping? I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer our time nor should would be expected to become race officials. Isn't that why we pay $$$?

Wow, you really must not know how our sport works. I guess all the volunteers should stop helping at races since none of us ever get paid directly.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I assume there is likely a shortage of USAT officials but I also assume that some USAT sanctioned RDs don't want USAT officials at their events because they don't want their participants, particularly newbies, being penalized for unfamiliar rules or rules they don't think they are important. They are worried that a penalized participant may decide not to sign up for another one of their races.

I'd be interested in what USAT's stance is on this and, as mentioned by B. McMaster, what happens if there is an injury claim at a sanctioned race where there weren't any USAT officials present? Do USAT's insurance lawyers represent the RD if a lawsuit if filed regarding the injury or do they tell the RD that the insurance coverage is void because there wasn't an official on site?
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jul 21, 17 7:26
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
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Mark Lemmon wrote:
I assume there is likely a shortage of USAT officials but I also assume that some USAT sanctioned RDs don't want USAT officials at their events because they don't want their participants, particularly newbies, being penalized for unfamiliar rules or rules they don't think they are important. They are worried that a penalized participant may decide not to sign up for another one of their races.

I'd be interested in what USAT's stance is on this and, as mentioned by B. McMaster, what happens if there is an injury claim at a sanctioned race where there weren't any USAT officials present? Do USAT's insurance lawyers represent the RD if a lawsuit if filed regarding the injury or do they tell the RD that the insurance coverage is void because there wasn't an official on site?

I do not believe having officials at a race has nothing to do about insurance or issues.

Officials cost the RD more money, and folks are complaining about the 15 buck one day license. Would folks like to pay another 15 bucks for the officials?

The officials get a few bucks to be at a race but it is NOT something anyone would do if it were a job putting food on their tables. AND, for the abuse an official gets
from an athlete that gets a penalty, well, until you have been in an officials shoes, .. As was stated, no athlete thinks they ever break the rules. I have loved it this
year how many times I was passed on the right by folks illegally.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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If you are constantly being passed on the right, then you are constantly blocking.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

I do not believe having officials at a race has nothing to do about insurance or issues.

I agree.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: Jul 21, 17 7:38
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
If you are constantly being passed on the right, then you are constantly blocking.

Again, you jump to conclusions, but I will let you believe what you want.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Well then explain it. YOU said you have seen a lot of illegal passing on the right. The only time I've ever had to pass on the right is when someone is blocking. All I know is that on most courses, if you are in the proper position then you can't be passed on the right. Why is it happening to you so often if not blocking?

Edit: to quote you verbatim: "I have loved it this year how many times I was passed on the right by folks illegally. "
Last edited by: HuffNPuff: Jul 21, 17 7:55
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Well then explain it. YOU said you have seen a lot of illegal passing on the right. The only time I've ever had to pass on the right is when someone is blocking. All I know is that on most courses, if you are in the proper position then you can't be passed on the right. Why is it happening to you so often if not blocking?

Edit: to quote you verbatim: "I have loved it this year how many times I was passed on the right by folks illegally. "

Agree. If it's a non-Draft legal race and you're passed on the right then you're to far left. This is blocking.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Well then explain it. YOU said you have seen a lot of illegal passing on the right. The only time I've ever had to pass on the right is when someone is blocking. All I know is that on most courses, if you are in the proper position then you can't be passed on the right. Why is it happening to you so often if not blocking?

Edit: to quote you verbatim: "I have loved it this year how many times I was passed on the right by folks illegally. "

Nah, would rather just let you assume the negative.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave - this is how you typically try to get out of a discussion...throw dirt on the other person for being negative, making assumptions, or whatever. Anything but providing an explanation. So, if it's not blocking, please enlighten us, otherwise you are just pleading the 5th.
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Dave - this is how you typically try to get out of a discussion...throw dirt on the other person for being negative, making assumptions, or whatever. Anything but providing an explanation. So, if it's not blocking, please enlighten us, otherwise you are just pleading the 5th.

Nope, that is how you want to look at it.

No different than lots of time folks accuse me of things on ST. I have no desire to play these games with folks that already think they know what happened.
I will not play the snowflake game.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Clearly, you are being the snowflake here. I'm ready to eat humble pie if you can just explain why you are constantly being passed on the right. I thought you had tougher skin. If you were inadvertently blocking, just say it. Instead, you cast aspersions.
Last edited by: HuffNPuff: Jul 21, 17 8:32
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Clearly, you are being the snowflake here. I'm ready to eat humble pie if you can just explain why you are constantly being passed on the right. I thought you had tougher skin. If you were inadvertently blocking, just say it. Instead, you cast aspersions.

Nope, I am not going to take the bait. You jumped to the conclusion I cheated, Great, be my guest and think you know. I see this on ST all the time.
Yep, I am a total rule breaker. I have no idea what I am ever talking about. I am a BOP racer. And if it makes you happy, I am the best snowflake on ST.
New want to be anything but the best, right. :)

Who said constantly on the right? You cannot even quote correctly, which is again why you win, you have seen all this happen first hand, and already know the answers.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
If you are constantly being passed on the right, then you are constantly blocking.


LOL, I love it. Yeah, Dave I can't think of a single scenario where it wouldn't be blocking. You ride on the right unless passing. Simple as that. It has nothing to do with being a hater or whatever other kind of silliness you want to dream up. I could possibly see you biking a little more left if the shoulder isn't deemed safe enough to bike on and in that scenario, if someone is passing you on the right they are an idiot, but other than that, you are blocking.
There should be officials at all races.
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
HuffNPuff wrote:
Clearly, you are being the snowflake here. I'm ready to eat humble pie if you can just explain why you are constantly being passed on the right. I thought you had tougher skin. If you were inadvertently blocking, just say it. Instead, you cast aspersions.


Nope, I am not going to take the bait. You jumped to the conclusion I cheated, Great, be my guest and think you know. I see this on ST all the time.
Yep, I am a total rule breaker. I have no idea what I am ever talking about. I am a BOP racer. And if it makes you happy, I am the best snowflake on ST.
New want to be anything but the best, right. :)

Who said constantly on the right? You cannot even quote correctly, which is again why you win, you have seen all this happen first hand, and already know the answers.

How quickly we forget what we said. That would be you again. To quote Dave: "I have loved it this year how many times I was passed on the right by folks illegally. "
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [B.McMaster] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Big difference between I did not see a race official (easily could happen) and there was no race official (dubious).
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
HuffNPuff wrote:
Clearly, you are being the snowflake here. I'm ready to eat humble pie if you can just explain why you are constantly being passed on the right. I thought you had tougher skin. If you were inadvertently blocking, just say it. Instead, you cast aspersions.

Agreed. He's pulling a Donald Trump. Opps. Maybe this should go to the LR.
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....


Our paying $$$ for events is not helping? I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer our time nor should would be expected to become race officials. Isn't that why we pay $$$?


Wow, you really must not know how our sport works. I guess all the volunteers should stop helping at races since none of us ever get paid directly.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I know how the sport works. I know that volunteers are integral to making races work. We can debate the substance of that all day long. What I typed was that we shouldn't be expected to volunteer or help. Least of which should any of us be expected to become race officials. Most of these races aren't run by 501c3 non-profits so it irks me a fair bit that race companies are making money largely off the backs of free labor. I get the argument that races "might" not be around if all the labor was paid because registration fees would increase but there needs to be a solution to that, especially with whatever precedent is set with the current lawsuits. That all stated, I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer. I really dislike how the race companies hold that over the athlete's heads that there will be no race unless we get your free labor.

Your quote that most athletes never help is just a shit comment because I shouldn't be expected to help with something that I paid for. If I order a coffee from Starbucks, and they're taking too long to make it because they're busy, should I be expected to jump over the counter and help them sling drinks? Nope! I will either choose to wait or take my business elsewhere.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....


Our paying $$$ for events is not helping? I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer our time nor should would be expected to become race officials. Isn't that why we pay $$$?


Wow, you really must not know how our sport works. I guess all the volunteers should stop helping at races since none of us ever get paid directly.


Don't put words in my mouth.

I know how the sport works. I know that volunteers are integral to making races work. We can debate the substance of that all day long. What I typed was that we shouldn't be expected to volunteer or help. Least of which should any of us be expected to become race officials. Most of these races aren't run by 501c3 non-profits so it irks me a fair bit that race companies are making money largely off the backs of free labor. I get the argument that races "might" not be around if all the labor was paid because registration fees would increase but there needs to be a solution to that, especially with whatever precedent is set with the current lawsuits. That all stated, I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer. I really dislike how the race companies hold that over the athlete's heads that there will be no race unless we get your free labor.

Your quote that most athletes never help is just a shit comment because I shouldn't be expected to help with something that I paid for. If I order a coffee from Starbucks, and they're taking too long to make it because they're busy, should I be expected to jump over the counter and help them sling drinks? Nope! I will either choose to wait or take my business elsewhere.

I do agree totally with you.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
Mark Lemmon wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.


Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.


I've also been at multiple USAT sanctioned events that didn't appear to have any USAT officials present in transition or on the course. I'm not fine with that, but I tolerate it at events which I know to be generally safe and where the majority of my peers attempt to follow the rules even though there are likely no officials to bust them.

I don't have a problem paying the USAT annual membership. It's insignificant in my total yearly budget for endurance sports. I do have an issue if I believe that USAT isn't paying attention to members like me.


It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....

Can I ask you to explain how the second statement you made here (which I do not agree with btw) is the cause of the first statement you made?
I ask because it appears to me that you are saying that the RDs choose not to pay to have officials at the race because MOST athletes are lazy and/or greedy. Did I read that correctly?
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....


Our paying $$$ for events is not helping? I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer our time nor should would be expected to become race officials. Isn't that why we pay $$$?


Wow, you really must not know how our sport works. I guess all the volunteers should stop helping at races since none of us ever get paid directly.

Don't put words in my mouth.

I know how the sport works. I know that volunteers are integral to making races work. We can debate the substance of that all day long. What I typed was that we shouldn't be expected to volunteer or help. Least of which should any of us be expected to become race officials. Most of these races aren't run by 501c3 non-profits so it irks me a fair bit that race companies are making money largely off the backs of free labor. I get the argument that races "might" not be around if all the labor was paid because registration fees would increase but there needs to be a solution to that, especially with whatever precedent is set with the current lawsuits. That all stated, I (we) shouldn't be expected to volunteer. I really dislike how the race companies hold that over the athlete's heads that there will be no race unless we get your free labor.

Your quote that most athletes never help is just a shit comment because I shouldn't be expected to help with something that I paid for. If I order a coffee from Starbucks, and they're taking too long to make it because they're busy, should I be expected to jump over the counter and help them sling drinks? Nope! I will either choose to wait or take my business elsewhere.

Exactly what I was going to say.

-Tony Zamora
http://www.endorphinhub.com
USA Triathlon Level 2
Certified Coach
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [sixt3] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
sixt3 wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Mark Lemmon wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Jorgan wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Most of the USAT races I do have zero officials, and I am totally fine with that. :)


Not even a USAT Race Referee based around transition? Seems unlikely.


Every race I have done this season locally, minus Auburn, had zero and I mean zero officials. And that is fine with me.


I've also been at multiple USAT sanctioned events that didn't appear to have any USAT officials present in transition or on the course. I'm not fine with that, but I tolerate it at events which I know to be generally safe and where the majority of my peers attempt to follow the rules even though there are likely no officials to bust them.

I don't have a problem paying the USAT annual membership. It's insignificant in my total yearly budget for endurance sports. I do have an issue if I believe that USAT isn't paying attention to members like me.


It is up to the RD if they want to pay to have USAT officials at their race.

But since MOST athletes never help, just take, well, ....


Can I ask you to explain how the second statement you made here (which I do not agree with btw) is the cause of the first statement you made?
I ask because it appears to me that you are saying that the RDs choose not to pay to have officials at the race because MOST athletes are lazy and/or greedy. Did I read that correctly?

I did not say that.

I said that the RD does choose if they want officials, and the RD has to pay for them.

I did not say MOST athletes are lazy and/or greedy. I say that most athletes, as has been written over the years on ST, do just take from the sport. I see very few who
volunteer. Very very few up step up and become an official. So from giving back to the sport, yep must just take. Overall lazy, not Type A's. But a lot of type A's do not seem to want to give back.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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I applaud LTF for their decision. USAT has lost their way on many fronts and from the event side pretty much have become an (expensive) insurance provider and not much more. LTF will be able to use a tremendous amount of money (15 per person) and invest it as they feel will best serve their audience.
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
I did not say MOST athletes are lazy and/or greedy..

At least not until your next sentence...

Quote:
I say that most athletes, as has been written over the years on ST, do just take from the sport. I see very few who volunteer. Very very few up step up and become an official. So from giving back to the sport, yep must just take. Overall lazy, not Type A's..

Yep, after we eliminate the "very few who volunteer" and "Very very few [who] up step up and become an official", we're pretty much left with "most"...

So all those who just show up and pay the entry fees aren't contributing at all to the continued survival of the individual race, and the sport in general?

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Warbird wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
I did not say MOST athletes are lazy and/or greedy..

At least not until your next sentence...

Quote:
I say that most athletes, as has been written over the years on ST, do just take from the sport. I see very few who volunteer. Very very few up step up and become an official. So from giving back to the sport, yep must just take. Overall lazy, not Type A's..

Yep, after we eliminate the "very few who volunteer" and "Very very few [who] up step up and become an official", we're pretty much left with "most"...

So all those who just show up and pay the entry fees aren't contributing at all to the continued survival of the individual race, and the sport in general?

Total bigly snowflake alert...how dare you bring facts and quotes to Dave. He is always right and when he's wrong, cries like a baby in the corner and calls you a bully.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Hgwy1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hgwy1 wrote:
I applaud LTF for their decision. USAT has lost their way on many fronts and from the event side pretty much have become an (expensive) insurance provider and not much more. LTF will be able to use a tremendous amount of money (15 per person) and invest it as they feel will best serve their audience.


Was on a training ride yesterday with buddies and this whole USAt/Lifetime situation came up. And I have to admit, our one guy who slows us down the most- yet was a race director a few years back- put this in a view that I frankly would like to hear what others think about. I’ve been a big USAT fan and was surprised by the Lifetime move, but now I am thinking harder about this split.

1) 1) USAT states they have “sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the past 35 years”. Big numbers! But let’s forget about events that date back to a time before computers and when only water was passed out at aid stations. How many events did USAT sanctioned in 2015? 2016? The race director said it was about 1500-1600 a year. Still big numbers, and lots of money pulled in for each of these sanctioning application fees (which runs the RD about $200-$400) and all the one day memberships that are pulled in. On top of, each USAT sanctioned race MUST have a USAT certified race director, which costs a crazy amount of money (paid to USAT) to take the course and be certified.
2)
2) 2) Many people in triathlon think of the USAT SANCTION as a gold standard, the big seal of approval for a proper and safe race with officials to enforce the rules. Yet it is really only a RD filling out an on-line sanction form consisting of about 20 questions, many of which are the RD’s name/address/phone/date of event and then paying their sanctioning fee. A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING? Again, the RD in our group says he can’t think of one event that was actually even declined. and he was witness to many poor events, yet USAT would sanction again the next year. So the magical USAT Sanction stamp doesn’t seem so magical anymore for me.
3)
3) USAT states there are no “surprises” using USAT rules and USAT Officials. Our RD used officials, paid dearly for them only to have athletes not know they were penalized and if they did actually know there was a penalty unsure exactly what they did. The cost of having officials is all on the RD and some officials live far away incurring an even higher travel fee. There was no shortage of officials, just the cost of getting them to his event became outlandish and USAT would not assist with the fee to keep the integrity of the event. He learned that there was NO USAT requirement to have officials at his events in order to be USAT sanctioned. It was easy math. He stopped using officials. The best estimate was that only about 30% of races use USAT Officials, and that is how USAT keeps the integrity of the sport.
4)
4) I am unsure why USAT states that having officials on motorized vehicles directing athletes in real time threatens on-course safety? Ironman does this! And USAT has no problem putting their sanctioning stamp on them and accepting all their sanctioning fees and one day memberships. USAT adds that short-courses races differ considerably from long-course races. What? So the short course races only have a 12 or 24 mile bike leg. Do the short-course athletes go that much faster than the long-course athletes? I don’t think so. Does IM not give penalties for the first 24 miles of their USAT sanctioned event that makes their system so much more solid. I think USAT is grabbing at straws here.

I’ll be watching this lifetime split. I’m definitely going to get to a few of their races next year to see how this goes first hand and think they are possibly on to something here.
Quote Reply
Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [albertok] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
albertok wrote:
Hgwy1 wrote:
I applaud LTF for their decision. USAT has lost their way on many fronts and from the event side pretty much have become an (expensive) insurance provider and not much more. LTF will be able to use a tremendous amount of money (15 per person) and invest it as they feel will best serve their audience.



Was on a training ride yesterday with buddies and this whole USAt/Lifetime situation came up. And I have to admit, our one guy who slows us down the most- yet was a race director a few years back- put this in a view that I frankly would like to hear what others think about. I’ve been a big USAT fan and was surprised by the Lifetime move, but now I am thinking harder about this split.

1) 1) USAT states they have “sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the past 35 years”. Big numbers! But let’s forget about events that date back to a time before computers and when only water was passed out at aid stations. How many events did USAT sanctioned in 2015? 2016? The race director said it was about 1500-1600 a year. Still big numbers, and lots of money pulled in for each of these sanctioning application fees (which runs the RD about $200-$400) and all the one day memberships that are pulled in. On top of, each USAT sanctioned race MUST have a USAT certified race director, which costs a crazy amount of money (paid to USAT) to take the course and be certified.
2)
2) 2) Many people in triathlon think of the USAT SANCTION as a gold standard, the big seal of approval for a proper and safe race with officials to enforce the rules. Yet it is really only a RD filling out an on-line sanction form consisting of about 20 questions, many of which are the RD’s name/address/phone/date of event and then paying their sanctioning fee. A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING? Again, the RD in our group says he can’t think of one event that was actually even declined. and he was witness to many poor events, yet USAT would sanction again the next year. So the magical USAT Sanction stamp doesn’t seem so magical anymore for me.
3)
3) USAT states there are no “surprises” using USAT rules and USAT Officials. Our RD used officials, paid dearly for them only to have athletes not know they were penalized and if they did actually know there was a penalty unsure exactly what they did. The cost of having officials is all on the RD and some officials live far away incurring an even higher travel fee. There was no shortage of officials, just the cost of getting them to his event became outlandish and USAT would not assist with the fee to keep the integrity of the event. He learned that there was NO USAT requirement to have officials at his events in order to be USAT sanctioned. It was easy math. He stopped using officials. The best estimate was that only about 30% of races use USAT Officials, and that is how USAT keeps the integrity of the sport.
4)
4) I am unsure why USAT states that having officials on motorized vehicles directing athletes in real time threatens on-course safety? Ironman does this! And USAT has no problem putting their sanctioning stamp on them and accepting all their sanctioning fees and one day memberships. USAT adds that short-courses races differ considerably from long-course races. What? So the short course races only have a 12 or 24 mile bike leg. Do the short-course athletes go that much faster than the long-course athletes? I don’t think so. Does IM not give penalties for the first 24 miles of their USAT sanctioned event that makes their system so much more solid. I think USAT is grabbing at straws here.

I’ll be watching this lifetime split. I’m definitely going to get to a few of their races next year to see how this goes first hand and think they are possibly on to something here.

You are wrong on #1. The only races that must have a certified RD, which I and my wife have paid for and been to class, is for a Nationals event. Other than that, nope.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
h2ofun wrote:
albertok wrote:
Hgwy1 wrote:
I applaud LTF for their decision. USAT has lost their way on many fronts and from the event side pretty much have become an (expensive) insurance provider and not much more. LTF will be able to use a tremendous amount of money (15 per person) and invest it as they feel will best serve their audience.



Was on a training ride yesterday with buddies and this whole USAt/Lifetime situation came up. And I have to admit, our one guy who slows us down the most- yet was a race director a few years back- put this in a view that I frankly would like to hear what others think about. I’ve been a big USAT fan and was surprised by the Lifetime move, but now I am thinking harder about this split.

1) 1) USAT states they have “sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the past 35 years”. Big numbers! But let’s forget about events that date back to a time before computers and when only water was passed out at aid stations. How many events did USAT sanctioned in 2015? 2016? The race director said it was about 1500-1600 a year. Still big numbers, and lots of money pulled in for each of these sanctioning application fees (which runs the RD about $200-$400) and all the one day memberships that are pulled in. On top of, each USAT sanctioned race MUST have a USAT certified race director, which costs a crazy amount of money (paid to USAT) to take the course and be certified.
2)
2) 2) Many people in triathlon think of the USAT SANCTION as a gold standard, the big seal of approval for a proper and safe race with officials to enforce the rules. Yet it is really only a RD filling out an on-line sanction form consisting of about 20 questions, many of which are the RD’s name/address/phone/date of event and then paying their sanctioning fee. A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING? Again, the RD in our group says he can’t think of one event that was actually even declined. and he was witness to many poor events, yet USAT would sanction again the next year. So the magical USAT Sanction stamp doesn’t seem so magical anymore for me.
3)
3) USAT states there are no “surprises” using USAT rules and USAT Officials. Our RD used officials, paid dearly for them only to have athletes not know they were penalized and if they did actually know there was a penalty unsure exactly what they did. The cost of having officials is all on the RD and some officials live far away incurring an even higher travel fee. There was no shortage of officials, just the cost of getting them to his event became outlandish and USAT would not assist with the fee to keep the integrity of the event. He learned that there was NO USAT requirement to have officials at his events in order to be USAT sanctioned. It was easy math. He stopped using officials. The best estimate was that only about 30% of races use USAT Officials, and that is how USAT keeps the integrity of the sport.
4)
4) I am unsure why USAT states that having officials on motorized vehicles directing athletes in real time threatens on-course safety? Ironman does this! And USAT has no problem putting their sanctioning stamp on them and accepting all their sanctioning fees and one day memberships. USAT adds that short-courses races differ considerably from long-course races. What? So the short course races only have a 12 or 24 mile bike leg. Do the short-course athletes go that much faster than the long-course athletes? I don’t think so. Does IM not give penalties for the first 24 miles of their USAT sanctioned event that makes their system so much more solid. I think USAT is grabbing at straws here.

I’ll be watching this lifetime split. I’m definitely going to get to a few of their races next year to see how this goes first hand and think they are possibly on to something here.


You are wrong on #1. The only races that must have a certified RD, which I and my wife have paid for and been to class, is for a Nationals event. Other than that, nope.

OK. USAT Certified just for National Events.
Yet this makes it even worse!
USAT will take money from anyone, no training or certification, any Joe that wants to put on a triathlon and slaps "USAT Sanctioned" on their event.
Thanks for that clarification Dave that makes me cringe even more.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [albertok] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
albertok wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
albertok wrote:
Hgwy1 wrote:
I applaud LTF for their decision. USAT has lost their way on many fronts and from the event side pretty much have become an (expensive) insurance provider and not much more. LTF will be able to use a tremendous amount of money (15 per person) and invest it as they feel will best serve their audience.



Was on a training ride yesterday with buddies and this whole USAt/Lifetime situation came up. And I have to admit, our one guy who slows us down the most- yet was a race director a few years back- put this in a view that I frankly would like to hear what others think about. I’ve been a big USAT fan and was surprised by the Lifetime move, but now I am thinking harder about this split.

1) 1) USAT states they have “sanctioned more than 40,000 races over the past 35 years”. Big numbers! But let’s forget about events that date back to a time before computers and when only water was passed out at aid stations. How many events did USAT sanctioned in 2015? 2016? The race director said it was about 1500-1600 a year. Still big numbers, and lots of money pulled in for each of these sanctioning application fees (which runs the RD about $200-$400) and all the one day memberships that are pulled in. On top of, each USAT sanctioned race MUST have a USAT certified race director, which costs a crazy amount of money (paid to USAT) to take the course and be certified.
2)
2) 2) Many people in triathlon think of the USAT SANCTION as a gold standard, the big seal of approval for a proper and safe race with officials to enforce the rules. Yet it is really only a RD filling out an on-line sanction form consisting of about 20 questions, many of which are the RD’s name/address/phone/date of event and then paying their sanctioning fee. A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING? Again, the RD in our group says he can’t think of one event that was actually even declined. and he was witness to many poor events, yet USAT would sanction again the next year. So the magical USAT Sanction stamp doesn’t seem so magical anymore for me.
3)
3) USAT states there are no “surprises” using USAT rules and USAT Officials. Our RD used officials, paid dearly for them only to have athletes not know they were penalized and if they did actually know there was a penalty unsure exactly what they did. The cost of having officials is all on the RD and some officials live far away incurring an even higher travel fee. There was no shortage of officials, just the cost of getting them to his event became outlandish and USAT would not assist with the fee to keep the integrity of the event. He learned that there was NO USAT requirement to have officials at his events in order to be USAT sanctioned. It was easy math. He stopped using officials. The best estimate was that only about 30% of races use USAT Officials, and that is how USAT keeps the integrity of the sport.
4)
4) I am unsure why USAT states that having officials on motorized vehicles directing athletes in real time threatens on-course safety? Ironman does this! And USAT has no problem putting their sanctioning stamp on them and accepting all their sanctioning fees and one day memberships. USAT adds that short-courses races differ considerably from long-course races. What? So the short course races only have a 12 or 24 mile bike leg. Do the short-course athletes go that much faster than the long-course athletes? I don’t think so. Does IM not give penalties for the first 24 miles of their USAT sanctioned event that makes their system so much more solid. I think USAT is grabbing at straws here.

I’ll be watching this lifetime split. I’m definitely going to get to a few of their races next year to see how this goes first hand and think they are possibly on to something here.


You are wrong on #1. The only races that must have a certified RD, which I and my wife have paid for and been to class, is for a Nationals event. Other than that, nope.


OK. USAT Certified just for National Events.
Yet this makes it even worse!
USAT will take money from anyone, no training or certification, any Joe that wants to put on a triathlon and slaps "USAT Sanctioned" on their event.
Thanks for that clarification Dave that makes me cringe even more.

Does a race saying it is USAT certified means it is better? Nope. Safer? Nope. That all rules are followed? NOPE

But for me, and I did said me, it allows me to chase something that is fun for me, and that is rankings. Going for my 11th year of AA in Tri. Going for top AA in my AG in Aquathlon. Going for my first AA in Duathlon. Going for Aquabike, but boy do I suck!!!

Each event, based on the RD who is running, determines whether and event is safe, fair, etc.

So bottom line, just do the events one enjoys doing and enjoy life.

I will be heading to Donner Tri in the morning to race. Yep a USAT event. :) Darn hill scares the crap out of me.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Sanrafaeltri] [ In reply to ]
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Under current USAT rules a participant can only appeal a rule violation for Equipment or Eligibility. An appeal of a call of drafting, off course advancement etc. (a judgemen call by a marshall). Will be immediately dismissed by the head referee. So unless USAT changes is methodolgy, the process will remain cumbersome and appear unfair. (Which is sort of the whole point of this discussion). The letter from Siff is a restatement of the party line. Which we, of course, expected. But I hope that the USAT Board takes this "shot across the bow" by LTF to heart and begins the process of change or they will have more defections.
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [albertok] [ In reply to ]
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albertok wrote:
A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING?

we looked at this a couple of years ago. we couldn't find any. USAT's response to us is was that isn't it better to get an RD to conform to a standard rather than decline the sanction?

still, it seems to me there ought to be a market solution or some kind of solution that allows a consumer to parse between races that are inherently safer. i have some ideas about that, as i have given this a lot of thought. i don't know that the answer is in declining a sanction, but i have seen some pretty questionable races produced, no doubt.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
albertok wrote:
A better question may be HOW MANY USAT RACES ARE DECLINED SANCTIONING?


we looked at this a couple of years ago. we couldn't find any. USAT's response to us is was that isn't it better to get an RD to conform to a standard rather than decline the sanction?

still, it seems to me there ought to be a market solution or some kind of solution that allows a consumer to parse between races that are inherently safer. i have some ideas about that, as i have given this a lot of thought. i don't know that the answer is in declining a sanction, but i have seen some pretty questionable races produced, no doubt.

Now if only a USAT sanctioned race meant you got the standards to be followed. I know of many where the water temp was over the spec, and, well, ..

Or the transition area has an equal distance no matter where you put your bike.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [smoothoperator] [ In reply to ]
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I would like to see USAT fee/membership as optional at a race. I chase USAT rankings too, but not everyone cares about USAT participation (points, race series, championships, worlds, etc).

I like the "standards" that USAT tries to set and (maybe) hold RDs and races to. A great goal, and expected of a National Sport Sanctioning body participating in World competition (ITU, Olympics, etc). I just wish USAT was more consistent with the Worlds programs (why do we still have Non-draft Sprint Duathlon at Nationals?). They do a good job, not great...we all have room to improve.

Nothing wrong with LTF doing their own thing. Some will race them, for their own reasons. Some will avoid at all costs...again, their choice. Nothing wrong with that in my view, we all have choices on races.

Registration fees should have some logical cap based on actual costs and some added profit for the company providing the service. But, like many here, I think Active.com is expensive relative to the value they provide. I get that they offer more than a money taker service, but like anything else, maybe they need to offer tiered services with requisite fees for those added services. I don't want an Active Premium account for extra cost, so why do you make it so frigging easy to click signup for that crap when I just want to pay for a simple reg fee for my local/regional/national race?!?!?!

RDs probably are getting some great feedback in this thread. I can only hope USAT and Active monitor it as well as adjust their business models a bit.

D
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Dalancas] [ In reply to ]
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Dalancas wrote:
I would like to see USAT fee/membership as optional at a race. I chase USAT rankings too, but not everyone cares about USAT participation (points, race series, championships, worlds, etc).

I like the "standards" that USAT tries to set and (maybe) hold RDs and races to. A great goal, and expected of a National Sport Sanctioning body participating in World competition (ITU, Olympics, etc). I just wish USAT was more consistent with the Worlds programs (why do we still have Non-draft Sprint Duathlon at Nationals?). They do a good job, not great...we all have room to improve.

Nothing wrong with LTF doing their own thing. Some will race them, for their own reasons. Some will avoid at all costs...again, their choice. Nothing wrong with that in my view, we all have choices on races.

Registration fees should have some logical cap based on actual costs and some added profit for the company providing the service. But, like many here, I think Active.com is expensive relative to the value they provide. I get that they offer more than a money taker service, but like anything else, maybe they need to offer tiered services with requisite fees for those added services. I don't want an Active Premium account for extra cost, so why do you make it so frigging easy to click signup for that crap when I just want to pay for a simple reg fee for my local/regional/national race?!?!?!

RDs probably are getting some great feedback in this thread. I can only hope USAT and Active monitor it as well as adjust their business models a bit.

D

Totally agree with your comment about why are we allowing folks to qualify for TeamUSA worlds which is DL sprint, both tri and DU, when they are racing a NDL sprint tri or du. Easy to answer, just follow the money.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Now if only a USAT sanctioned race meant you got the standards to be followed.

And this is probably the key to most people's issue with USAT sanctioning. If all you really get from the sanctioning is points towards a ranking, and you aren't seriously chasing those points, what do you actually get? I'd much rather do a non-sanctioned event that has good organization, clearly marked and accurately measured courses, chip timing, and fair and consistent enforcement of the rules (even if they don't specifically adhere to USAT rules) than do a sanctioned race that has none of the above...

"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"
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Re: USAT Responds to Life Time Fitness Announcement about "divorce" from USAT Sanctioning [Warbird] [ In reply to ]
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Warbird wrote:
h2ofun wrote:

Now if only a USAT sanctioned race meant you got the standards to be followed.


And this is probably the key to most people's issue with USAT sanctioning. If all you really get from the sanctioning is points towards a ranking, and you aren't seriously chasing those points, what do you actually get? I'd much rather do a non-sanctioned event that has good organization, clearly marked and accurately measured courses, chip timing, and fair and consistent enforcement of the rules (even if they don't specifically adhere to USAT rules) than do a sanctioned race that has none of the above...

I have raced tons of USAT events, and none have ever been as bad as you state.

I have raced USAT and non USAT events in the past. A bad RD, is a bad RD. Even WTC gets bad RD's.

Folks can just choose a race based on whatever they want. No reason to fight over USAT or not.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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