Compulsion, certainly.

Addiction? Whatever. Applying the term is just an attempt to minimize personalresponsibility.

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The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

So then, who does one blame when the alcoholic/drug addict plows over people on a side walk in New York?



As the mayor of new yuk once said,"it's just a dui"!

That is a fair point. I guess you can do both. Blame him for specific actions whilst being forgiving and understanding of the addiction.

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Would you be forgiving if it was your daughter he ran over and killed because of his "addiction"?

I do not know anyone who works in addiction services who take any responsibility away from the adict. The whole, "Addiction just means people don't take responsibility." line of crap are said as preemptive blab. Saying that someone is addicted is just a part of a bigger story.

This guy gets to think about his "addiction" for about 20 years!!!!!

http://www.nbcnews.com/...-teens-white-n761891

Pretty sure I just answered that. Being forgiving of someone's addictions is not the same as forgiving their specific actions. Lots of addicts go their entire lives without mowing anyone down in traffic ;)

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

until they kill someone!

Being an addict doesn't absolve them from responsibility. Addictions can be overcome. I'm sure it's quite hard to break an addiction (try getting me to stop riding my bike...), but you still have some responsibility for your actions.

As to whether Wiener has an addiction, I couldn't say one way or the other. But either way, he did what he did and needs to bear the consequences.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Having an addiction does not absolve you of responsibility for the consequences of acting on the addiction. If you are an alcoholic you don't have to get in a car and drive it. If you have a sex addiction indulging it with a 15 year old is just reprehensive. Done.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

The defense council says the addiction is responsible but you would be hard pushed to find any competent mental health professional or someone working their own personal treatment who would excuse bad behavior because of an addiction. The whole idea that addiction is a free pass for everything is a myth.

Rooted in inferiority.

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_________________________________
I'll be what I am
A solitary man

"some responsibility for your actions"....who shares the other part of "some of that responsibility? . I will settle for "FULL" responsibility for their actions...

You either didn't read or ignored the next paragraph.

"As to whether Wiener has an addiction, I couldn't say one way or the other. But either way, he did what he did and needs to bear the consequences. "

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

Addict? Are you kidding me?
No one's called this douche a pedophile yet?

Can't he be both?

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Proud member of the MSF (Maple Syrup Mafia)

Agreed. In Weiner's case, its a weakness in his character not an addition.

We can condition our brains to get addicted to almost anything but the way he's talking sounds like he's blaming his "sickness" and not himself.

As an addict myself, I have never sought, nor do I deserve, any kind of forgiveness for actions I've taken.

I own them fully.

This is how I cope with my mistakes as well, but do you forgive yourself? what happens when the affected party comes over and says ''I forgive you''?
What's the thought process there if I may know? a recent situation---fresh wound comes to mind.

Being an addict is one thing, taking (or shirking) responsibility is another thing; they are neither mutually exclusive nor automatically conflated.

AW could meet the clinical definition of an addict, or not. Blaming his actions on his claimed 'sickness' is certainly a douche move and an evasion for which he deserves scorn, but that doesn't necessarily mean he isn't suffering from an addiction too. Recognizing it is a necessary step, and then taking responsibility is another step in the process of getting better. Hopefully he gets there soon, whether or not his obvious problem fits into a semantically tidy box labeled "addiction."

This is how I cope with my mistakes as well, but do you forgive yourself? what happens when the affected party comes over and says ''I forgive you''?
What's the thought process there if I may know?

I don't understand the conflict here.

Just because you own your own mistakes and take responsibility for them doesn't mean you can't forgive yourself. Still less does it mean others can't forgive you.

One might argue that you can't be actually forgiven until you take responsibility for your wrongdoing.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

I guess I didn't realize he had moved on to kids. When I saw that he had done it again I just kind of tuned it out. We probably won't be seeing much of him for a long time.

Addiction, compulsion, dumbassery, not sure. But he is one fucked up individual who has quite thoroughly destroyed his life and taken down a few others with him.

I don't know if he classifies as a pedophile. Yes, this incident would be there, but it doesn't seem like sexual attraction is his motive and he certainly doesn't limit it to under age girls. He'll send any and every body a picture of his junk.

OK, enough thinking about Carlos, he is not worth the electrons.

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I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.

No. I wouldn't be as forgiving. But that's not the point.

In fact, you could always flip that around. Would you be forgiving and understanding if your daughter, because of her "addiction," ran over and killed someone? Or would you insist that the full weight of the law be applied, with the harshest punishment possible notwithstanding the addiction?

It's not realistic to expect people emotionally invested to react completely rationally.

She was 15. She didn't press charges because she was a willing participant. Legally, I don't know how that works out. She was in one of the Carolinas, I forget which. So, I don't know their state laws as far as consent goes.

Funny, because I don't see the words "addict" or "addiction" anywhere in that article.

That said, I'll point out that I'm skeptical about categorizing sex and porn as addictions in the same sense that someone may be addicted to some substance. And while I'm certainly no expert or professional, I suspect classifying those things as addictions may cause more harm then good.

As someone posted above, I think there's a difference between a compulsion and an addiction. And while there may be some exculpatory elements to both, they're certainly not the same. And to explain what I mean when I say "exculpatory,"
I don't mean it as complete justification, just that there are elements that can and perhaps should be taken into consideration when determining the appropriate consequences.

I read both. First Paragraph u said addicts should bear "some". Next paragraph you mentioned weiner. So we agree, weiner should be responsible for all his actions, not some of them. But "addicts" should only bear "some" responsibility for their actions.

If anything, we probably only see about 6-7 inches of him.

You are WAY overthinking this.

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Kevin

http://kevinmetcalfe.dreamhosters.com
My Strava

 
Appreciate the (honest, as usual) answer.

I may not know the same levels of depravity and addiction you do (I think we all to some degree face and live with different kinds and levels of ''mistakes'') but I have found myself in similar situations, knowing that I do not deserve forgiveness and being forgived by the affected parties, but also having the mindset of not being able to or choosing to not forgive myself.
I find that it drives me and Im afraid that if I forgave myself I would find no reason to wake up and try to be better the next day... and so my mistakes drive me.
I have also chosen to forgive others who do not deserve forgiveness, do not ask to be forgiven and do not realize their failures and mistakes and how harmful they are to themselves and others around them, I have found that doing that is liberating and one of the best decisions I've made when it comes to rebuilding broken relationships.

I think that choosing to forgive is often something that must be done repeatedly, but the concept of forgiving somebody else that may or may not deserve it is easier to grasp than the one of forgiving myself, thanks again for the answer.

You can argue that, but it is entirely possible to forgive somebody that refuses to own up the their wrongdoings, much less admit and denounce them...

I'm not sure if I get your point, I can own up to my mistakes and take the responsibility, I can try to fix and make up for whatever I did (I try to do all this), others can forgive me for what I did and even praise the final result yet I can still carry the regret, burden and shame of all that I did and refuse--or be unable to forgive myself for that. I find that to be a driving load, choosing to fight and work for vindication (we all do in different ways) yet others may deal with it different.
It all sound very dark and grim and it may or may not be, it isn't for me yet I recognize it as one of the ghosts that inhabit my head.

You can argue that, but it is entirely possible to forgive somebody that refuses to own up the their wrongdoings, much less admit and denounce them...

I don't know where admitting and denouncing them enters into it . . .

I'd say it's possible to offer forgiveness to someone who refuses to take responsibility. It's another thing for that person to be able to accept that forgiveness, and without first taking responsibility, it's not actually possible.


I can own up to my mistakes and take the responsibility, I can try to fix and make up for whatever I did (I try to do all this), others can forgive me for what I did and even praise the final result yet I can still carry the regret, burden and shame of all that I did and refuse--or be unable to forgive myself for that.

Sure, that's certainly possible. I think a lot of people find themselves stuck in that situation at one point or another- realizing you did something wrong, feeling guilt for it, unable to forgive yourself even when others have forgiven you. I don't think that's terribly uncommon. Not healthy, but not uncommon.

I was just saying that if you don't take responsibility for your wrongdoing, you can neither forgive yourself nor accept forgiveness from others- because you haven't admitted to yourself that you're in need of forgiveness, and accepting forgiveness necessarily implies admitting guilt. If you haven't accepted responsibility for your wrongs, in your mind, you're not guilty and don't need forgiveness, right?

I find that to be a driving load, choosing to fight and work for vindication (we all do in different ways) yet others may deal with it different.

Vindication and forgiveness are completely and utterly separate concepts.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

Do you think its impossible to forgive unless that forgiveness is ''accepted''?

Are there different levels of ''taking responsibility'', what does it mean to do so? merely admiting it is enough for me...

I dont know as I haven't given much thought into it, but I think at some point or other a person knows they've done wrong and need forgiveness, the process, the admitance, the humiliation and the rest make it repulsive and something to be avoided, over time that becomes an easier an easier thing to do till you come to the point where you convince yourself you do not need it, I think that process is one we've all have found ourselves in at one point or another, what you choose to do in it is what will define the outcome.

Do you think its impossible to forgive unless that forgiveness is ''accepted''?

Eh . . . Not really . . . You can at least let go of anger towards someone else even if they're not apologetic or whatever. But we've been looking at the question more from the point of view of the person who did something wrong. It really doesn't matter, from that point of view, whether or not someone else "forgives" you for something that you did wrong if you won't admit that it was wrong. Likewise, you really can't forgive yourself for something before taking responsibility for being wrong in the first place.


Are there different levels of ''taking responsibility'', what does it mean to do so? merely admiting it is enough for me...

There are probably different levels of taking responsibility, but at root, I think it's just recognizing that you, as someone acting on your own free will, did something- you decided freely to do it, you weren't driven or forced to do it by some other agency. Can definitely be hard to face.


I think at some point or other a person knows they've done wrong and need forgiveness, the process, the admitance, the humiliation and the rest make it repulsive and something to be avoided, over time that becomes an easier an easier thing to do till you come to the point where you convince yourself you do not need it,

Absolutely. It's not an easy thing.

I think a LOT of people go through out their lives hardly ever feeling guilty over anything. I don't really get that.

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"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

No..
My family is a victim of a drunk driver. And I want to punch all in the face that stand up and defend a killer because it's an addiction. I have no sympathy for murderers of any sort, "addiction' or not. It's an excuse to excuse bad behavior.
In my case, this drunk driver with her addiction, had 3 previous Dui's. Each time, her defense played the "addiction" card.

Weiner...err, I meant winner.

Seriously, agree 100%!

Addiction? Whatever. Applying the term is just an attempt to minimize personalresponsibility.


Spot on.

I don't believe any so called addiction should give you a hall pass from committing a crime.

I'm tired of sentences being reduced because of someone blaming an addiction. Go clean yourself up in prison.

To answer your question. Yes I believe sex can take over someone's life in a similar manner to drugs. It's perhaps not as obvious nor having an impact on those around them. I don't excuse any of them though.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about at what point something becomes pathological. For example, my ex-wife is super intelligent. She dropped out of state university because she thought it was beneath her (most of her classmates at her hifalutin prep school went to Ivy League schools). After dropping out of university she ended up working as a janitor. Some of her siblings think she is schizophrenic (all of her 8 siblings went on to get degrees and most become professionals). When we were going through our divorce she did everything she could to make the divorce as expensive and painful for me as possible even when it worked against her interests. Our mediator asked me if she was crazy. I'm not a doctor but I told him that in my opinion she is just stubborn to a fault. She probably doesn't have a mental illness; she just has a bad personality. In college I had a few semesters where my grades suffered because I played too many video games. Was I addicted to video games? I let them negatively affect other aspects of my life. I was able to buckle down and concentrate on my school work other semesters so I wasn't exactly powerless against them. Doctors diagnosed me as having ADHD and dysthymia. Someone with slightly fewer or less severe symptoms might be diagnosed as normal. Perhaps the whole pigeonholing people as having this or that condition is wrong and we are all just some place on a continuum.