I agree with you 100%... but I like the line cutting perk during athlete check-in. Other than that I couldn't give a crap.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

blah blah troll gonna troll.

Why so salty? Just ignore it. You'll save some stress and improve performance in those pricey races.

They asked for my address - what do they mail, a plaque? While I agree with you on all points, I like free swag. Unless it's embarrassing swag.

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2017 races: St. George 70.3 May 6 | Madison 70.3 June 11 | IM Zurich July 30 | Chicago Marathon October 8

Only bronze, eh

Hey fucknozzle, don't be bad mouthing my Costco card. I love Costco.

That said, I couldn't agree with you more on the AWA thingamajob.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Does said douchebag also throw sticks in the spokes of fellow racers wearing AWA kits?

I'm pretty much with you in theory, and see the litany of annoying posts on my FB feed of the "badges," and then read all the congratulatory messages from folks who think the poster is actually top whatever percent, but honestly but so what? If this is the thing in life that drives you nuts, you've got a good life!

That said, I don't really have an issue with the frequent buyer aspect of the program. I don't sign up for races in efforts to increase points or however it is they track it, I sign up for races that interest me, and if it somehow benefits me, all the better. I'll take a shorter check in line, or an earlier wave any day of the week.

I know how you feel. But honestly I don't give WTC my money to be a member of the club they just force it on me. I do it because I love it. Let your hate go Publius - you will be a better person for it. Now where did I put my tyre slasher...............

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He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.

millennials have their participation trophies, Gen X and baby boomers have their AWA.

To be fair, AWAs get participation trophies, too, when they finish their race.

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Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.

I don't know anything about this program, but googling their website - do you have to be top 10% of your AG to be in it? Or can you get it by some other non-performance method?

http://www.ironman.com/triathlon/organizations/all-world-athlete.aspx#axzz4VgKk1DtS

Seriously, I mean I don't have Costco within 25 miles of me now, I only have a BJs and it really blows.

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ABSOLUTELY. I like this perk.

Brent

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DFRU - Detta Family Racing Unit...the kids like it and we all get out and after it...gotta keep the fam involved!

The more you race, the more points you get. Like 2900 points for a 12:50 in AZ or 1700 points for a 13:57.

The more events you complete, the more points you accumulate. So, a triathlete could be ranked higher than an overall winner (that only raced 1 IM) if they completed 2 IMs and scored decently.

I got silver, just missed gold.
I know you wanted me to share that with you.
Have a nice day!

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Team Zoot So Cal

Best backdoor brag ever about making the coveted AWA club. Well done sir.

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--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Oh snap!

I got gold, wanna hold it?

Onle three races count, so 15000 points is the limit.

Disclaimer: this is not a backdoor brag.

I did three WTC races in 2016.

In IMTX, I broke my fibula due to a stress fracture on the run, didn't realize it was that bad, and walked/ ran home into something like 50th place in my AG.

In a 70.3, I was doing well, had a mechanical problem that caused me to lose about 45 minutes waiting for neutral race support.

At IMMD, I finished a few places outside of the KQ neighborhood.

I considered this a crap season with only one decent race. Somehow I got gold status. I guess the points must be done off raw time. That means having a shortened course, like both TX and MD did, means you get a lot of unearned points.

It reminds me of the saying: "any club that would have me as a member is one I don't want to join."

Your points are in relation to your AG winner. So the winner gets 5000 points for an IM and 3500 for a 70.3. Every second behind the winner is less a certain number of points.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

True. My Tahoe result was way slower than my other races and the points were way lower as well, even though my relative age group placement was higher.

Agreed. AWA is bullshit. Do people actually care about this stuff?

If a little more thought was put into it, it could be somewhat meaningful.

Also, the rewards for the most part are laughably pointless: logo on the bib, optional swim cap you look like a DB for wearing, cheap luggage tag. There is a small amount of value to the registration line cut and pre-sale.

Yes you do actually have to be top 10% and if you do 3 or more races it greatly increases your chances. From what I've seen you have to finish all 3 of those races under 13 hours for Ironman or under 5:30 for 70.3 to qualify in my age group for silver, which I got. Not sure what the disdain from the OP is for, for a lot of people this is a goal, and an accomplishment. Perhaps because if you only do 1 Ironman you may not even get bronze if you finish in 10 hours. So the OP may have done a 10 hour race and gets annoyed that all these 13 hour racers are bragging on social media. So what, it still proves consistency in performance even if you don't consider 3 Ironmans under 13 hours an accomplishment. The OP is a douchebag.

Thanks for mentioning it. I got silver and blasted my Facebook page with it. Also congratulated my friends that also got it and blasted their page. Looking forward to the perks and putting the sticker on my truck. Happy to be a part of this club and Triathlon.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Well apparently many do. I don't....but it doesn't bother me if someone does.

Some of them may judge you and question what you care about.

Calling it a B.S. points system or a WTC money grab is probably true. But, the program does make me think twice about how many WTC races I might do in a year. In fact, I now shoot for doing three events each year whether I'm in race shape or not.

I also like my Delta miles and Amex points programs. You can start a whiny thread about them too.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Just out of curiosity...where do you park your car at night?

I am not annoyed by the social media posts, but I can't help but notice how few of them come back to tell me about their USAT All American status. The latter may have flaws but is a much better indicator of performance. The OP may be a douche but not nearly as much as the AWA program.

Checking my AG, the USAT All American ranking status goes much deeper than the WTC AWA Gold rankings. AWA includes worldwide participation vs. just USA rankings.

Some of my thoughts on making bronze status for the first time...



http://slowpope.com

And yet how many AWA Gold members from the U.S. make all American status? That is my point.

I honestly don't understand why the AWA program itself is douchey.

I can certainly see how people bragging about it on Social Media would be annoying, but if that's bar douchness, what isn't douchey?

They give you points for doing races, then you get very small perks for getting those points, like an expedited race check in. If you have frequent customers, why wouldn't you reward them?

I don't even think it generates much new cash for IM. My guess is that anyone running out to buy AWA branded merchandise would still be buying something branded by IM even in the absence of AWA stuff.

Everyone hates some stuff (I hate man buns and people who let their 10 year olds wear fedora hats), but I'm fine with the AWA program. If my one 70.3 combined with a 13.5 hour 140.6 [sweet back door brag] allow me to cut the check in line at my next race at no extra cost - then colour me bronze.

I have no problem with rewards or loyalty programs. Most companies are straight forward about. But WTC blends it with a mix of performance and then markets it as if it is 100% performance ... hence the name and the social media blasts. I would prefer the AWA cashback program myself.

I think I'm confused - are his results representative of a top 10% finish? He says straight out he was top quarter in one race, and top third in another - how do you make a top 10% out of that?

Therein lies the rub. It's accumulated points over your best three races. So if one guy wins a 70.3 and grabs 3500 points and another races two fulls, finishes in the top half in each, nabs 2000 points in each, he's now up in total points.

You also have to factor in that the AWA program is actually 3 separate AWA programs. There's the 70.3 AWA program, the full Ironman AWA program, and the combined program. So, that's potentially three distinct groups earning gold, silver and bronze. That's a lot of medals.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

All of them? I'm not sure what your point is w/r to the comparison. There were something like 220 AWA Gold listings worldwide and 250 USAT All Americans for the same AG.

It's not really a frequent flyer thing...I got my AWA with only 2 Ironman events...a sub 10 hour and a KQ effort....oh the front door bragging! :) heheheh

Seriously, yes, I get it. BUT...rewarding your best customers with no check in lines is nice. At IM South Africa, AWA Gold and Silver were invited to a brunch with a speech by Paula Newby-Fraser. It was alright and learned a few things too. Speaking of IMSA, AWA also hooked me up with a really great spot in transition which was an advantage over where the plebs (tongue in cheek!) racked their bikes for M40.

In other words, I think it's a good idea and with some more customer-focused benefits could actually become valuable and thus an incentive to race more...which is what the WTC wants. As for bragging rights....save that for after the Kona slots allocation! :)

Andnow you gotta add something called "All country,". Some new ranking category

I forgot about the rack spot - that was definitely a perk.

Posts like yours are pathetic. If you resent giving Ironman your money find other lame races to do and shut up about it. I do totally agree that it's super loserish to post pics of your AWA badge. However, it is not just about doing the races. The points are based on your time difference from the winner of your age group. Most people end up with zero points. I happen to love getting to check in without waiting in line, and I like getting to register early for races that sell out fast.

American Wanker Association??

Correct. And incorrect: the floor for any finisher is 1000 / 700 / 350 / 250 points, depending on the event. Zero points for DNS/DNF/DSQ, but DFL always gets points.

I never cared about AWA until I hit gold...now suck it Silver and Bronze!

Oh, All American too. I wish that was a badge I could place on my FB page!

Bingo! The program empowers those who are marginally successful and need a boost to keep going at it.
This is done by providing them with some irrational and constructed accomplishment.

Nothing wrong with that. Everybody is a winner.

So you complain about (1) decreasing participation in the sport, (2) recognition for patrons and (3) free advertisement on vehicles and social media.

Get over it. If you don't enjoy the sport, get out of it, or stop racing. Otherwise, let your times/results speak for themselves.

Good lord. And they say millennials are self-righteous.

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

I am guessing very few of them. Post 37 explains why.

Send a note to USAT...but dont expect perks...they dont think that way.

Pubes is a Turd....or Troll (whichever you prefer) who cant even read directly from Ironman's Website......



Copied from: http://www.ironman.com/...l-world-athlete.aspx


That being said, it is kind of a "look at me" thing. But not on the level that Pubes makes it.

No, there isn't.

Man buns should be an auto DQ

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808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo

You've just been elevated to gold with that one right there champ.

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http://www.PatGriskusTri.com USAT Certified Race Director
2024 Races: USAT State of CT Age Group Championship/State of CT HS Champs/ CT Club Championship - Sat June 15th (Oly/Du/Sprint) Hopkins Vineyard Tri at Lake Waramaug Saturday July 13th http://www.HopkinsVineyardTri.com

He is only saying this to keep people from putting their stickers on their cars. He wants to be the only one rolling the strip with all those AWA stickers. Read between the lines of the OP. He is super proud of his accomplishments.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

slightly off topic, but.

I have a relative who posts rants about the evils of participation trophies for kids intermixed with photos of his finisher medals from road racing. The irony seems to have escaped him.

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Hey we agree!!!!!......I like Huffandpuff idea of "cash back program"........i do like the, at times, better racking spots....i also feel slightly ashamed of being gold as well but if i could get cash back on races instead of "early entry" to all these races in Asia, now we would be talking. I will be racing less in 2017 due to costs of races and travel, so much for a dentist thing i have going for me.

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2024: Bevoman, Galveston, Alcatraz, Marble Falls, Santa Cruz

Yeah. No reason to look at data when you can guess.

What I found reviewing standings was that the AWA Gold standings correlates with the USAT All American standings for the AG reviewed. Top of the AWA Gold matches top of USAT and bottom of AWA Gold is actually a bit higher threshold than USAT All American.

Correlation, not causality.

AA rewards quality. AWA rewards quantity (with a slight bonus for quality, just to confuse things).

AWA is a frequent flyer program.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

I'd be curious to see the number of folks that raced 2+ races and are not AWA. My guess is it's higher than you think.

So true. AA takes you best 2 or 3 races, depending on what events you do. No rewards for doing more than the minimum other than you get to throw out your lowest score(s).

This stuff, whether AA or AWA, is still about getting to our ego's, and getting our money

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

While a frequent flyer program, there is a pretty good correlation to an achievement program.
The 20+ people ahead of me on AWA are faster than I, those behind me generally are slower than I. Yes, some faster guys did not do the three races, but the same is true is all ranking programs.
I was 22nd in my age group for 70.3 in AWA, I was 20 in "their" 70.3 World's.
Do I think I am near 20th in the world, NO. Am I closer to the 80th that I am ranked in USAT, YES!
Does AWA mean much-no. Does it mean something- sure.
And it is a great marketing tool. For some, it seems a motivational tool.

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Team Zoot So Cal

OK, you are making me work. I picked the 2016 M60-64 to simplify things. And to make it more apples to apples, I compared AWA Overall for the U.S. against USAT AA; the very pool that you would expect to have the greatest overlap with USAT rankings. In that age group there were 104 All Americans but 311 AWA United States athletes...indicating to me that is three times easier to get an AWA ranking of some color than an AA ranking. Alternatively, maybe long course racing, and Ironman racing in particular is three times more popular than non long course. Regardless, that 311 included 13 Gold, 141 Silver and 157 Bronze AWA athletes. I found that 9 of the 13 Gold AWA members were AA and I am willing to concede that because Gold only represents 4% of the AWA athletes (at least in that AG), and because there is a decent overlap with AA status, that it is a fair representative of performance. But given that there are more Silver AWA than the entire AA group, I can safely 'guess' that a much greater percentage of Silver AWA athletes are not AA, and an overwhelming percentage of Bronze AWA are not AA. I think that is a fair assessment.

Although I don't particularly care for the program, there is no doubt it is a brilliant business move by WTC, and that many IM consumers love it and their social media badges regardless of what it confers. Maybe the airlines should take a lesson from Ironman and offer similar badges to their customers based on the number of miles they fly. Double points awarded for business class seat purchases and triple points for first class seating. :)

I don't think you can definitively show that across the board for the AWA Gold rankings. I doubt you've even looked into correlation vs. causality for AWA Gold vs USAT AA rankings.

What aspect of the USAT AA rankings rewards quality more than WTC AWA Gold? Where does AWA Gold reward quantity more than USAT AA? Do you have specifics? Both programs use a participant's top THREE race results (though USAT requires 3 tri race results and AWA will rank you with less than 3 races). USAT AA uses the top 10% of AG rankings (I think this used to be 5% with the next 5% receiving AA Honorable Mention) while AWA Gold uses the top 1% AG ranking. Both score participant race results vs. race winner results.

The differences between the programs is that WTC has made the choice to recognize additional levels of participation and performance by including silver (top 5% of AG) and bronze (top 10% of AG). They also break out AWA between all WTC, WTC IM and WTC 70.3 races. So what? As I mentioned above, USAT used to have two levels of All American rankings and then made it easier to achieve AA rank. If this encourages participants to complete more races or work to improve their standings so what? Slowman is always pointing out that our sport is in decline. Any efforts to boost participation are probably a good thing.

I will say that I never paid much attention to USAT rankings. I feel the same way about AWA. However, I will say that WTC goes out of their way to provide these rankings to participants and celebrate their achievements, while USAT publishes this information once a year in a magazine that most of us aren't even interested in receiving. Basically another case of USAT just going through the minimum necessary motions for members.

In the end I don't see a lot of difference between the two ranking programs at the AA and Gold level. The generalizations made about one being more performance oriented than the other haven't been backed up with results data or criteria comparisons. The extended rankings of the AWA levels does reward participation, but I don't see the downside to encouraging more participation in this sport.

Yes. My comments to you were with respect to AWA Gold vs USAT AA. I looked at my AG, M50-54 at 70.3 distance, and didn't see a lot of difference between the top and bottom of each group between the two rankings.

Without looking into it in detail, I would say you're probably correct on the Silver and Bronze AWA vs. USAT AA. After all, 5% and 10% of WTC race participants worldwide is likely a larger pool than the top 5% and 10% of participants in USAT sanctioned races.

The business move is good for WTC and I think it is a good tool to boost participation in the sport, even if it is only WTC race participation. The airlines already have multiple frequent flyer levels and differing reward programs!

No. Not true. Both programs use your top 3 races (for tris). And both programs toss out your bad races.


Here I agree with you. Rankings pander to ego. As for the money, I don't think USAT pushes their rankings program to the point that it generates more participation, while WTC is laughing all the way to the bank!

How does it get our money?

There is no enrollment fees, and no cost to exercise your perks of a separate packet pick up line or rack spot.

I don't believe people are doing extra races to get an AWA level. I would bet dollars to doughnuts that for most people it's just a surprise at the end of the season, but doesn't bear any weight on their race schedule.

And as I said in an earlier post, the people running out to buy AWA branded gear would be buying some other Ironman branded gear were AWA not a thing.

I honestly can't figure out how this is a cash grab by WTC.

And if it keeps even a few people engaged in the sport then all the better.

Honestly, with so many things in the world to hate, and so many more pressing questions (Arrested Development gets cancelled after 3 seasons but some how Bachelor is still on the air), why are people are wasting the emotional energy on a program like AWA? Especially where once you removed the Facebook bragging it seems to be all pros and no cons.

Agreed, the preferred rack spot is a good perk. I was at both Racine 70.3 and Austin 70.3 this year and both races had the swim canceled and they resorted to a TT bike start based on bib numbers. AWA folks had low bib number and, thus, we got to start earlier. My buddy racing with me (same AG, not AWA) had to wait easily 1.5 hours behind me to start because he was so far back in line. Quite an advantage with the temp rising as the minutes go by.

You realize there are triathletes outside the US of A? ;)

I understand why people like this perk; but in the situation you described, the advantage was so great that the athletes did not race under the same weather conditions (not to mention saving 90 mins of nervous energy standing around) but yet were scored against each other in the final standings. I am not against perks, but when they fundamentally alter the playing field I think everyone should have serious concerns.

This made a huge difference at IMMD this year. The guys starting early had no issues on the run, whereas the rest of us starting an hour and a half later had flooding to deal with. Also I totally forgot about those guys racked in the low bib number area and when I got off the bike I only saw 2 other bikes on my rack in my AG area. Figured I was in a really great place coming off the bike. Little did I realize (entirely forgot) that a bunch of faster guys were already off the bike long ago but were racked elsewhere.

However now that I have posted in this thread, I might as well say I am AWA Silver for this year so maybe I'll get a similar advantage at some point. It's all I can really hope for out of this "program"

So how does this preferred racking work? Lets say you are Silver AWA Overall but Bronze for Ironman. When you do an Ironman or 70.3 race which ranking do they use?

Yeah, that is a good point.

Honestly, I don't know exactly. I'm pretty sure it was a binary thing as in either you were AWA or not and if you were then you got preferred spots. I did notice from talking to the guys around me that we were organized by AG.

Hence, the reason I admitted the strange discrepancy between my being 22 in the world, but 80th in the U.S.
I am unaware of a world ranking for amateurs other than AWA. Does ITU have one?

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Team Zoot So Cal

Do they offer a credit card so we can get 1 point for every $1 spent?

I think I misread your post as you considering yourself 80th in the world as suggested by USAT .. mea culpa

WAIT....now I see the insidious nature of the "early entry." I live in Asia, but my impressions are that all the early entry races I'm offered are in the US and Europe. AWA is in cahoots with the airlines!

A far more desirable benefit would be "guaranteed sign-up." Sometimes you hit a strong vein of form and it would be nice to slide in an extra race for fun...even if a little past the regular sign-up deadline.

Also came in handy at Racine this year with the rolling start on the bike.

I'd much rather start with people in a frequent flyer program, if only because it means that everyone starting around you did at least 2 races last year.

Im sorry, but USAT AA is much harder to earn than AWA, even AWA gold. I know a M35-39 person that earned AWA Gold by doing 3 70.3s between 5:05 and 5:25. Decent, sure. But this person's USAT score is about 82. No where near the 89 needed to get USAT AA. There is a world of difference between an 82 and an 89.

I understand that many AWA Gold are also AA, but you can "game" your way into AWA Gold by doing 3 70.3s or 3 140.6 because most people don't do 3 of each. Most people do 2 half and a full or 2 fills and a half, etc. I'm sorry, it's just reality that USAT AA is a higher bar.

Well, you can actually "game" either system. With the USAT system, you can add a 4th USAT race of any distance to jack up your rating. I say that as someone who only did three triathlons last year.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

Not really. What makes USAT tougher is that it it averages your top 3 scores and you are only ranked if you have 3. AWA just adds points together from your top three regardless of how many races you do. You have several people that only do 1 or 2 WTC races that are "ranked" lower than people much slower than them because of this. You can't really "game" your way into getting a USAT score of 90+. Three times.

You can look at USAT rankings and get a good idea of who you can beat and who you can't. That is not true AT ALL for the AWA ranking system.

It is interesting seeing the self congratulatory remarks for the Bronze status which is basically a finisher's medal for the season.. I do coach a few athletes who have achieved the gold standards and they were consistent podium finishers and winners all season long at both distances and world championships.





futrmultisports.com

I got silver. Woohoo!!!!

Seriously though, I know it means little but I am proud of it anyways.
I usually do 1 full and 2 halfs plus bunch of stuff anyways.
Compared to all you guys who are superduper fast, it's meaningless.
But comparing it to myself where I've gone from some DNF's a few years ago, to bronze, to silver, it's a progression in the right direction.

Absolutely it's an improvement and if it gives motivation to work to another goal it's positive. That said its a starting step to build on.


Futrmultisport.com

I'm going to slightly disagree with you, I do well in the low-mid 90's average but don't race many Halfs and never done a full. People I beat at the few halfs I do can end up ahead of me with a couple decent halfs or fulls vs. the Olys/Sprints I race for the most part. Just something I've noted over the years, but I'm not crying about it, longer races give better points on similar performance IME... AA and in the 90s is a very successful year.

I'm not in the AWA game but I've noted some friends that are very good at the Half/Long distance getting silver and gold... I've also seen a few not so fast people getting similar honors. Doesn't seem uniform to performance.

They didn't leech it out of you, you paid willingly. You should be more embarrassed to be ranting-on about being a WTC-sheep, when that's exactly what you've been. You also drone on exactly like the sort of annoying FB twit that you mention.

I guess you do irony very well.

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29 years and counting

This is too funny. Just today I logged on to FB and saw a friend who posted something about this. After lamenting how the start of the year was rough, he received his bronze status and it re-affirmed to him that he has a "gift" for racing and to keep his chin up and power through!

Don't get me wrong, he had some pretty decent results, but this is like bragging about making the AG worlds team where all you have to do is sign up and send in a check to the right place.

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Long Chile was a silly place.

I thought Kristy J was taking care of that for you.

Do USAT rankings give more points for longer distances?

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

No, not necessarily. Is there a greater chance of getting a huge score? Probably, but they simply don't "give" more points. The system is not set up to simply give more points to a certain race. In a longer race, there is more of a chance that many people will execute poorly which will result in people that execute very well getting a very high score.

the equation is slightly more complicated than that. It is more about how many people racing were ranked the previous year, and how race times compare to a calculated "average time". You end up getting more points at a big long course race because there are more previously ranked racers, many of who drag down the "average time".

Ok. This was my understanding. Got confused above

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just your average age grouper . no one special . no scientific knowledge . just having fun.

Haha congrats

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AV8 | Team Wattie Ink Elite 2019

The AWA could be much more meaningful if they used the point system as one way to qualify for a Kona slot!

Don't you worry. I think that is exactly where this thing is headed...

Paging Dev.

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

This isnt so bad for either kona slots or for the awa that gut reaction would say otherwise.

For starters that would then turn the status into something meaningful. You'd more or less need gold (Platinum?) to make it since there's only so much room on the pier. What would happen is that the existing KQ crowd would change their game to get top status anyway. Bronze would likely be harder to get since everyone is on the hamster wheel.

And as a plus, you'd finally get true proportional reputation that everyone wants for Kona slots.

Apart from the older crowd where finishing = KQ anyway, you'd still need to be fast.

(What this would do is force the fast guys to race 3x per year though, but at least planning a KQ run would be a little more straightforward than the luck involved currently.)

I see what you did there :)

Actually that isn't totally accurate. An "average time" isn't calculated, a "par time" is calculated.
It's calculated by multiplying all of the pacesetters (people ranked in the previous year) race times(in real numbers) by their previous year score and then dividing by 100. This is done for each pacesetter. The top and bottom20% are dropped and the middle 60% are averaged to create a Par Time. Dropping the top and bottom 20% of calculated times confounds for many of the people that underperformed and over performed. Hitting the par time exactly will yield you a score of 100.

Having more people in a race simply gives you more pacesetters from which to calculate an accurate par time.
The very high scores in long course races are from massive underperformance from a large number Participants. When things go south in an Ironman, it tends to be drastic. If it happens to enough people, the par time will go down. So normal performance and over performance will yield higher scores

I'm sorry if I confused you, but I explained it in more detail in the above post. I hope it helps. Trust me, I know the equation and the process inside and out. I guess I should have said definitively "NO," higher scores aren't "given" at longer races. Scenarios for higher scores are just more likely at longer races.

I'm never doing an ironman again I'm not giving wtc a single penny

We all thought that would have happened by now so I am not so sure it is in the cards.

Agreed. I thought some kind of ranking system for KQ would have happened by now. I still think it will happen though.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

USAT All-American is now top 10% in your AG. A couple years ago it was top 5%. So it is a bit watered down now as well.

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Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3

wow you made it, good for you :) is that "I do not care", and I'm "hard to get" kinda post, similar to my 13y old daughter :).... If you are so embarrassed why do you even mention..., grow some balls and quit, are they holding you hostage, should we send SWAT team to get you back :0

Or is this the part where we all should congratulate you and admire for hard work? can you send me your autograph

Considering you have to spend $250 to get your AWA trophy, yeah its a bit of a cash grab

https://www.ironmanstore.com/all-world-athlete-trophy/official-ironman-all-world-athlete-custom-trophy-1-1.html

Most amazingly, it appears anyone can buy that trophy. You just enter in your name, rank (gold/silver/bronze), year, and quantity. You could even buy multiple. And you can order your 2017 version already. What a total farce.

So I'll state it again: WTC could not give less of a shit about this 'achievement', because to them it's just another profit center. Enjoy your trophy, idiot.

"A business is trying to make money. Waaaahhh."- Publis

I think half of your posts could be placed in that other thread.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Self actualization should transcend class.

Just not in triathlon...

I have no doubt that at some point it will go this way but I think it is a mistake unless they change it to reward those who don't race 3 races but do well in the ones they race. With the current system someone could do decent in 3 IMs and qualify for Kona under this points system. Obviously there is no perfect situation but if they do this I can pretty much kiss Kona goodbye since I cannot afford to travel to 3 different IMs, nor would I want to race 3 in the same year to qualify for Kona. But I would be interested to see what they would come up with to "reward" those who race more without hurting those who place higher.

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Twitter - Instagram

but it doesn't is the fucking problem lol trust me i'm on seizing the means like none other bro one day the proletariat of the world will have all kinds of self actualization triathlon running yoga reading leisure fulfillment without getting their booty snatched by the bourgeoisie for some surplus value... got daym how much labor power do they want ?????????? can a brotha get a use value in this bish??? i'm gonna try tt or something fuck this bourgeois azz sport i'm not a money tree got daym i'm a human. the culture surrounding this sport is lame as shit consumer-bot 9000 cultural hegemony v2.1 more carbon and aero $100000000000000 buy it or you're a lesser human edition

$$ kerching.

If they do introduce a Kona ranking for AGers, how many years before most give-up on it, and the pier is full of fit orthodontists and executives. Plus I can see finishing times go up, as everyone is wasted before they get there.

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29 years and counting

The rankings pull points from the 4 distances, sprint to full. A fairer system would add the points from each racer's best performance from each distance instead of simply pulling the highest 3 scores. Kona slots should be awarded on January 1 based on total participation numbers throughout the year.

Pros
--Fairer representation of the stacked AGs. Your points are still a function of who shows up as points are awarded as a function of the AG winner's finish time. However, this feels more reasonable.
--Less wear and tear. This won't require aspiring AGers to race 3 IM a year to yield max points. However, nothing is stopping you from trying to improve your best score by doing so.
--This should bump participation in the branded sprint/olympic races as people on the bubble vie for slots.
--More authentic roll down. Give a two week window for qualified athletes to register. Open slots roll on two week increments until all are filled.

Cons
--You would still need to race quite a bit - minimum 4 times to be competitive.
--Potentially long commitment time - for example, you would need to race well from January through December 2017 for a shot at Kona 2018. Then again, Kona is a multiyear process for most people so perhaps this is a non-issue. This could be offset by offering guaranteed slots to the AG winner (or podium) of national championships.
--More authentic roll down. Less of a carrot for those well outside the bubble.
--Potentially less money for Wanda as those gunning for Kona won't be dropping money on 3+ IMs a year. However, I imagine the bulk of their entry fee profit comes from those who don't aspire to Kona. Either way it could be offset by raising the Kona race fee. Or selling more AWA branded crap.

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Support cancer research with the world's longest annual charity bike ride.
Texas 4000 for Cancer
Austin, TX to Anchorage, Alaska
http://texas4000.org/

As if anyone will care.

Did you mean to write 2 week window?

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

Yep. I'll edit, thanks.

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Support cancer research with the world's longest annual charity bike ride.
Texas 4000 for Cancer
Austin, TX to Anchorage, Alaska
http://texas4000.org/

I would consider this system the most "fair":

-win your AG at IM race, you get to Kona (no roll down)
-don't win your AG you go into the ranking system and best 2 or 3 races count.

That ends roll down, or atleast only AG winners would show up. Don't want to go to Kona, that AG spot is forfeited and put into the ranking pot.

WTC "rewards" it's customers who do multiple events and thus uses Kona as the carrot to keep signing up for more IM events. But it also gives winners auto spots.

This would allow the best of your AG Kona Q and then the best of the "rest".

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm not sure about it being a total joke. Look at the top competitors in every age group. Then tell me whether or not those athletes are not indeed some of the best long course athletes. To me it seems like they are.

I get the impression that most of my social media friends who post about AWA aren’t posting to brag. They’re just really proud of all the hard work they put in. Some of them aren’t gifted athletes so getting AWA means a lot to them. What I find much worse are the triathletes that feel the need to constantly put down other triathletes.

I think if you were truly embarrassed to be a part of the club you would have left that part out of your post. I suspect your only real problem with AWA is that it's not exclusive enough for you. The self-congratulatory posts bother you because they're coming from people you feel shouldn't be part of the club.

That would annoy the shit out of me

I am just about OK with this bullshit award , there are more than 10 in my team who posted this crap but were incredibly excited - who am I to argue with their enthusiasm and if it motivates them , it is all good

I got bronze apparently after winning one IM ,one half and having a very good race at Kona

So no idea how this works and have zero interest in finding out

Using this is a means of KQ is just so wrong but sure it will happen

Not quite correct. You should have stated that one of three rankings pull points from 4 distances. AWA rankings are tallied for Ironman only; 70.3 only; and overall. It is only in the overall category that WTC awards points for their branded Olympic and sprint races. If they choose to use rankings as a path to Kona, then obviously, they should use the Ironman only rankings where nothing below 140.6 counts.

^ Like.

Well I guess we can agree to disagree because I find that most triathletes are desperately in need of a put down. Most of you lemmings are such intolerable narcissists that what you need is less fodder for obnoxious self aggrandizement, not more.

If you aren't irritated by these people -- and especially if you aren't irritated by their posts on social media -- it's likely because you are one of them.

That's funny coming from someone who posted publicly about making AWA.

I didn't realize they further fragmented the rankings into three divisions. If they're only going to look at IM performances, perhaps instead they could average your best three, or use only your top race. I was trying to get away from necessitating racing three IMs a year, thus my thought of roping in the other distances.

I like Doughtie's idea, and thought of it after I posted. They're are realistically what, 12-13 AGs at each race? With 40 races on the IM circuit that puts you at ~1000 slots to AG winners. The rest of the Kona pier goes to rankings. I'm good with that. I'd even be fine with giving slots to the top 3 in each AG at regional championships.

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Support cancer research with the world's longest annual charity bike ride.
Texas 4000 for Cancer
Austin, TX to Anchorage, Alaska
http://texas4000.org/

Funny coming from a guy who writes extensive blog posts about triathlon training minutiae.

News flash: nobody cares! Except possibly your mother.

Yeah I meant 12-13 per gender. With 40 races that gives you about 1000 slots total. Perhaps 12-13 per gender is being generous. Whatever, the idea remains.

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Support cancer research with the world's longest annual charity bike ride.
Texas 4000 for Cancer
Austin, TX to Anchorage, Alaska
http://texas4000.org/

If it wasn't for PV's posts like this, Slowtwitch would be so boring.

And BTW, I'm not ashamed to admit that I'm looking forward to my AWA Gold bike rack location this coming year.

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Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3

Completely and utterly agree....

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Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022

If my math is correct at most there are 16 AG categories. 18-24 all the way up to 90+ and then PC category. What I would wager is that out of those 16, on *average* if you went with "AG winner gets auto spot to Kona", you'd likely have 12-13 at most per gender per race (how many 90+ athletes are there in the world that do Kona and other IM's?).

So 12 x 2 x what 40 IM events = 960

At most: 16 x 2 x 40 = 1280

(i did my math by looking at drop down menu of Kona).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

This is an EPIC rant. Nice work.

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- I do all my own stunts

I'm very surprised you got bronze if you won your AG at an IM, plus a 1/2 and did well at Kona. You probably didn't do all three in the time period where they evaluate your ranking and you are only being evaluated on two races.

Yeah, interesting, I got silver for two halves and a full, none of which I was near the front LOL. I'd love it if UKINNY would actually look up what they say his/her points are, out of sheer curiosity.

ETA OK, did a little sleuthing (slow day... and STers are good at this... :) )

He actually got gold. Just looks like bronze on the listing

Are you really this angry in real life or is this just your internet persona? Bravo if it's just a persona: well played, very consistent and it obviously generates a lot of attention. If you're really this angry, I can't imagine it's healthy or productive.

However, to your point about AWA, on the one hand, just about every company has a rewards program. Anyone that does the math realizes that it doesn't correlate too well with actual performance. There are (were?) actual monetary savings with early registration to gold (maybe silver & bronze?), which was a small, but real benefit.

As for KQ, it would have happened by now. The negative response would be overwhelming: the quality of the field would really plummet. Look at how much heat WTC takes over the men vs. women pro slots, and it is highly debatable if that system is really unfair.

1. Male 18-24
2. Male 25-29
3. Male 30-34
4. Male 35-39
5. Male 40-44
6. Male 45-49
7. Male 50-54
8. Male 55-59
9. Male 60-64
10. Male 65-69
11. Female 18-24
12. Female 25-29
13. Female 30-34
14. Female 35-39
15. Female 40-44
16. Female 45-49
17. Female 50-54
18. Female 55-59
19. Female 60-64
20. Female 65-69

There's 20 AGs per race that doesn't even count any athletes 70+

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

this is why i care far more about usat rankings.

even when you get gold, your reward is a whole bunch of emails inviting you to sign up early for races that you don't want to do anyways.

probably the only thing i liked about it was getting invited to the banquet at worlds, but i didn't even attend so not sure it's much of a perk.

No idea mate and not sure I can be arsed ! My three races were march to October

As I said in my edited post. You got gold.

Exactly. You would add 3 more for IMFL and typically 2 more for IMAZ. Better assume at least 21 AGs in play averaged across all IMs.

At IMLOU 2015, AWA athletes were allowed to enter the pre-race banquet room via the most right hand door as opposed to the three doors immediately to the left (as in 1 foot to the left) ... walking into the same hall ... with open seating ... and no line cutting allowed for the buffet. They even had a person at that door taking the little AWA hall pass to ensure lesser athletes did not walk through that gilded entrance. WHAT A PERK!

it's a joke. i've actually checked into races and seen the awa line longer than the "regular" line.

Kiley Austin-Young, why do you care if I think your statement comes off douchey (it does), and what does that have to do with my car?

There are 16 total AG's (including PC group), so for a total of 32 (male+female). However 3 of those groups are from 80-84,85-89, 90+. You could likely average those out, and I'd wager 12 AG's on average would take "AG win= KQ spot", so total of 24 athletes per IM.

40 IM's x 24 athletes= ~1000 athletes who would qualify under the system of "win your AG and you make Kona, but no roll down".

How many athletes are in Kona who didn't AG qualify? 600 from legacy/fundraising/stories/celebrity/pro?

There is what ~2300 spots in Kona?

So under my previous suggested plan it would look like this:

-1000 AG athletes who won AG and auto KQ'd.
-600 athletes from the legacy/pro/celebs/stories/fundraising (IE, aren't included in AG rankings)

That would leave roughly 700-800 spots for the "best of the rest" from the AG ranking system. WTC of course would divide each AG based on number of entries (larger percentage in male 45-49 versus smaller portion in female 18-24, etc). That is if 600 people are picked each year by WTC to race from the "other" category. I don't actually know how many people qualify for Kona based on celebrity status/legacy or whatever lottery thing they have now/cancer story/corporate fundraising. If someone has a more exact number, that would be helpful to know.

So that's how in "theory" the numbers would look.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

600 seems high. I think Legacy is ~125 at most. Throw in 20-50 for Boulder style raffles and another 50 celebrity/army/survivor spots and you've 250 at most. But what do i know.

I think 600 is high for "legacy/fundraising/stories/celebrity/pro? " I would guess:


125 Legacy
85 Pro
10 Celebrity (conservative estimate)
10 Stories (conservative estimate)
20 Friends and family of WTC
50 CEO Challenge (total WAG)

That's 300, leaving 300 more for your 'best of the rest'. Really though, maybe your 600 is the right number. I'm sure the actual number of side deal entries is a closely held trade secret.

I had originally figured 300-400 for "other" non AG KQing, but I figured Dev or somone would scream I was way off.

So essentially if WTC went with an AG win and your in + AG ranking system, Kona would be:

-~90 pros
-300 "others"
-~1000 AG auto KQing athletes
- ~1000 AG from the "AG ranking" system.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

It would work, but I don't suspect it is coming. They would want to 'socialize' the change well in advance and I think they fear a reception similar to the Ironman Access program announced in 2010.

Speaking of that program, they couldn't even sell it if they tried today because advance registration privileges are no longer needed with races failing to sell out; and the second chance they offered for the lottery program went out the window with the lawsuit.

I think this idea of distributing slots to AWA athletes would fail on another ground: cost and convenience for WTC.

Right now...Your customers line up at the slot meeting and winners and roll-downs accept and pay for their slots right there and then. WTC has your money whether you show up on the pier or not.

Why would WTC want to go through the work of notifying eligible athletes, waiting to see who takes up the offer, and then reaching out to more athletes if they don't sell all the spots?

I hope they keep this as a frequent flier program and just get more creative with meaningful benefits.

>says op is a douchebag
>op responds by being a douchebag
Hilarity ensues and the cycle continues

If you qualify for Kona and are a gold AWA Ironman invites you to a free breakfast get together a few days before the race. A nice touch although the cost is well covered by all the money spent with Ironman.

That would be some breakfast is it wasn't! Eggs woodhouse all around

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the world's still turning? >>>>>>> the world's still turning

Now that is just downright insulting. I paid good coin for my costco card!

Perks....I might be wrong about this, but don't AWA get an official metal bag tag? Not one of those crappy plastic ones that all Costco members get?

I've not seen that in the 10 or so races I've stood in line at check-in since the AWA thing started. Usually the AWA line has zero people in it and the regular line has a 30-90 minute wait. The three races I stood in line for last year were Panama, Augusta, and Cartagena. The AWA line for both Panama and Cartagena had a total of zero people in them. I didn't race in 2015 so I didn't have AWA status. The regular line took almost 90 minutes at Panama, and an hour at Cartagena. Augusta I hit at the right time and there was basically nobody in either line. The last year I raced was 2014. I stood in line for the Texas 70.3, IMC, and IMMT that year. There was no AWA line at IMMT so it was about a 90 minute wait. There were zero people in the AWA line for both the TX 70.3 and IMC. The TX 70.3 regular line took almost 90 minutes to get through. IMC might have been 20 minutes or so.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

My experience is different and I've done many IM's and 70.3s both pre/post AWA. Prior to the program I've never waited more than 15 minutes in line. But then again, I don't go first thing in the morning when they open up and there are 200 people or more already there.

So with the AWA hall pass, I've gone up and it's pretty much do you want to wait 0 minutes in the regular line or zero minutes in the AWA line? I used it once at IM70.3 Florida because there was no one in line for AWA and maybe 3 or 4 people in the regular line. It was hot and sunny in both and I want to get in the tent right away so I used and saved at least 2 minutes!

Based on your experience I will admit that the line cutting might be a perk, but it hasn't been worth spit in my mind. And I've chucked every metal AWA key tag they've sent me into the trash the day it arrived.

One thing I really don't like is how they assign different sets of numbers based on the AWA color. It was easier to race before when I knew that everyone between, say, 936-1007 was in my Age Group, but now you have to realize that there are 3 more sets of numbers to add to that. And you can't assume that the non-AWA number set doesn't include the fastest guy...might be someone in there that didn't do any WTC races the prior year.