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Guppy Challenge, Week-2
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got a little behind! week-2 for guppies. post questions, failures, successes here.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I was focusing on band pull and keeping my head down and breathing with "split screen view" (one eye above water, one below). That's really hard with band pull but forcing "split screen view" makes you really honest about your head position and keeps hips from sinking (or at least sinking less)
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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A quick shout out of thanks to you for this. I used the Guppy PDFs to do my first 2.4 mile OW event this summer. 1:14! Now I'm actually enjoying swimming (at 48 years old it's about time). I was about to start the old Tarpon program and saw you started the challenge! I'm starting a week late, but it's cool that you're creating new content this year to keep it fresh. So I'm in for sure.
One request: kicking rhythm! If you have time to throw some of that in there, it would be great. On the last run through, the bi-lateral breathing ended up really help me improve my stroke balance. I found I don't need to understand WHY you do some drills, but they work. Finis ankle band arrives tomorrow, so I'm excited to see that in action.

Michael

(Second thanks to tigrchik for the last minute help before the event! You rock sister)
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [mpderksen] [ In reply to ]
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tried the band with a pull buoy and I definitely snake through the pool!
My concern is that it could be due also to my lack of flexibility. Reaching out with the arm and stay tall in the water doesn't come easy and I'm concerned that I'm trying to reach out too much, so that my waist bends. could that be a reason?
I'm attaching two screenshots from the video I made. One I have feet tied and pull buoy, the other is regular swimming.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [trimarch] [ In reply to ]
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"tried the band with a pull buoy and I definitely snake through the pool! My concern is that it could be due also to my lack of flexibility."

no. it takes no flexibility to maintain proper body position. it's ENTIRELY technique related. 1-arm pulls. swimming with a buoy between your legs. tying your legs is good, but i'd like to see some flotation there so that you can concentrate on fixing the fishtail thing.

if you go to harbor freight or northern tool or probably even home depot look for innertubes for wheelbarrows. inflate that with enough air to float your legs, hopefully the hole is the right size for both feet, but just only. that will bind your feet together but also float your legs. when you fix the fishtail problem then we'll work on the other axis (keeping your legs from sinking).

fixing the fishtailing, that'll be like skipping from 3rd grade to 8th grade.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you for the feedback Dan!
so basically it's either swimming with a buoy (feet not tied) or inflated inner tube, and not band + buoy like I've been doing?
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [trimarch] [ In reply to ]
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most important thing FOR NOW is to keep your legs together. we'll worry about floating your legs later. that's more advanced. a buoy is by nature going to keep your legs together. if you squeeze the buoy with your thighs you can't very easily splay your legs - and this is what people often do to counteract twisting at the waist while breathing.

the further down you fix the legs - grabbing the buoy with your ankles instead of your thighs - the more together your legs will be. binding the ankles really keeps your legs together. but that also keeps you from kicking, and your legs will sink. that's a very severe drill. you have to be GOOD to do that drill. that's advanced.

we'll get there. but for now, i just want to keep your legs/feet together and fix the fishtailing. go ahead and float your legs.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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How's everyone liking those kick sets? My best 25 yd sprint kick has been 25 secs. I really slow down when I go further...about 1:05-1:10 for a 50 and (last night) 2:42-2:46 for a couple of 100's. I know the workout called for 4x50 kick but I wanted to see what my 100 number looked like. Kicking fast is hard, especially when you don't have great ankle flexibility.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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the reason you are doing 50s, and not 100s, is because kicking is hard for guppies. i don't want to wear you out. the most pitiful thing is a worn out guppy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the reason you are doing 50s, and not 100s, is because kicking is hard for guppies. i don't want to wear you out. the most pitiful thing is a worn out guppy.

Yes, and thank you. I was kinda wondering how fast real swimmers do these. I did a bit better today (also using a center snorkel instead of a kickboard), but my average is just about 2:00 for 50m.

Still a long ways to go ...
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Kula] [ In reply to ]
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i once saw a guy in a yards pool kicking 50s in 32sec. i can't swim that fast.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
the reason you are doing 50s, and not 100s, is because kicking is hard for guppies. i don't want to wear you out. the most pitiful thing is a worn out guppy.

That is hysterical.

Swimming masters this weekend, I got the following feedback, but am not sure what to do with it:

A) "You are dropping your elbow." : they showed me what they meant by that, but I don't really feel it myself and am having trouble correcting that.

B) your glide is too long, and your stroke rate too slow. (I call that breathing-but ok)

C) your head should be looking down at the bottom of the pool (to me this is the easiest to fix- but when I swim in a group I usually watch the feet of the person in front of me to make sure I am not too close or too far away... should I not do that?)

Are there any tips or drills for the elbow drop situation?

Thanks!
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Running mom] [ In reply to ]
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Running mom wrote:
C) your head should be looking down at the bottom of the pool (to me this is the easiest to fix- but when I swim in a group I usually watch the feet of the person in front of me to make sure I am not too close or too far away... should I not do that?)

I started doing Masters 3 months ago, and I go 5 times a week. This would be my advice (others may have a different opinion):

I don't do flip-turns (haven't learned), so I use my split second at the wall to see if I'm catching up, or losing ground to the person in front of me. Aside from that I never* look up.

Having said that, if you feel you keep catching up to people, so much that you need to keep looking up to watch their feet, maybe you should ask them to move ahead of them, or lead that lane, or move up a lane.

*There is this lady at our masters that refuses to move down to a slower lane, but she just can't hang-on in our lane. When we are doing hard 100s, she just can't finish them, and she'll switch to backstroke and move very slowly; if I am behind her I will be looking up a few times because I will catch up to her. The first few times, I made contact with her, and she got all pissy at me, even gave me the finger.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Running mom] [ In reply to ]
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A) that's easy to fix, but we're not there yet. it's easy to fix but it does take concentration.
B) don't worry about that. ignore that for now.
C) if your legs sink it could be that your head is too high in the water. dev paul wrote on a thread somewhere about this challenge that during some of the drills (1-arm pulls) he was practicing the discipline of 1 eye in 1 eye out of the water during breathing.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I think WornOutGuppy can be my new name. I'm wondering why I can kick on my back arms extended and manage the sets but immediately lose forward motion kicking prone with a kick board? It takes easily twice the effort and time prone as it does on my back.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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We did 3 rounds of 4x25 band-only swimming at masters tonight. That's a heck of a core workout. Coach suggested a front quadrant (almost catch-up style) stroke would help to keep your mass forward and legs up. That worked for me along with a higher stroke rate and a sharper angle of entry (so I could initiate my catch sooner).
Last edited by: JoelO: Dec 15, 16 20:16
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Any advice on fixing the fish tailing?
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [owen.] [ In reply to ]
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owen. wrote:
Any advice on fixing the fish tailing?


Put some weight in your trunk. That ought to do it.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
if you go to harbor freight or northern tool or probably even home depot look for innertubes for wheelbarrows. inflate that with enough air to float your legs, hopefully the hole is the right size for both feet, but just only. that will bind your feet together but also float your legs. when you fix the fishtail problem then we'll work on the other axis (keeping your legs from sinking).

fixing the fishtailing, that'll be like skipping from 3rd grade to 8th grade.

Picked up the wheelbarrow innertube. Swam with it an felt like my legs were going from side to side. Felt somewhat rigid, but like a pendulum in the lane.

Thoughts?
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Gamecocci] [ In reply to ]
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"Swam with it an felt like my legs were going from side to side."

see notes above on "fishtailing". that's exactly what i want to uncover with this drill. here's the remedy: stop fishtailing.

yes, easier said than done. if you keep doing this drill you will eventually stop your fishtailing. you'll fix what's wrong. the problem is in how you breathe. the mechanics of breathing. if you do this drill with a snorkel you won't fishtail nearly as badly. that tells you what's causing this.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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 I have to say that I kinda "liked" workout #3 - following the 1-arm pulls with a 50 kick. It was a good mix up of working different muscles and seemed productive.

I'm sure I still look super awkward breathing on my off side (left), but it is starting to feel a little better.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Kula] [ In reply to ]
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Kula wrote:
I have to say that I kinda "liked" workout #3 - following the 1-arm pulls with a 50 kick. It was a good mix up of working different muscles and seemed productive.

I'm sure I still look super awkward breathing on my off side (left), but it is starting to feel a little better.

I agree with the 50 kicks. I also like a the 4,3,2,1 ladder aftet that. Unfortunately, I need to take a week or 2 off but I'll be back.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, how brilliant is this. I am enjoying this dialog. I have been a long-time awful swimmer (well, middle of the pack, but not really good), and this dialog is allowing me to think differently about how I swim, and where the problems are. It is also giving me the opportunity to understand why I am doing certain drills, which is something fundamental that I have missed in other swimming programs. Thank you.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
"Swam with it an felt like my legs were going from side to side."

see notes above on "fishtailing". that's exactly what i want to uncover with this drill. here's the remedy: stop fishtailing.

yes, easier said than done. if you keep doing this drill you will eventually stop your fishtailing. you'll fix what's wrong. the problem is in how you breathe. the mechanics of breathing. if you do this drill with a snorkel you won't fishtail nearly as badly. that tells you what's causing this.

On the fishtailing front, I tried an interesting set today with band:

100m band with pull buoy in between upper leg
100m band no buoy
100m band with pull buoy between ankles
100m band no buoy

repeat the above

I actually found the band with buoy between the ankles the hardest. My core felt like I was doing a plank the entire time to keep my feet from fishtailing all over the place....more so than the other two (buoy between leg and no buoy).
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. I had no trouble with the buoy between the ankles the other night. I felt a lot of tension in my core and quads when I was doing the band-only work.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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I read the Week 3 Guppy challenge, and would add a couple of observations from my swim yesterday. I believe I also have problems with keeping my body straight in the water, and wish I had a camera to video. Might be able to find someone at the pool who can video from my cell phone. Nonetheless, 1) the slow drills helped me to focus on my 6-beat kick, which is very lacking when I speed up at all; 2) the log roll is apparently from the waist up, when breathing, and this helps keep the feet straight when doing the 6-beat kick; and 3) I drowned and was unable to keep my feet up with the bands, but I was able to move the buoy to between my ankles, and keep my feet together and lifted. This allowed me to focus on how I was twisting to breath. Clearly this has given me some more insight into how I move in the water. Really cool to see how this is working. I've never practiced swimming or had anyone give coaching lessons with these things in mind. I'm not swimming fast, but I am working hard.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Rh] [ In reply to ]
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Some thoughts so far, in no particular order:
I don't THINK i'm fishtailing much with the band/buoy, but there's certainly some. Just having the band w/o the buoy makes it really difficult to have good balance and keep them up. I'm trusting that the fix is on it's way.... I don't have a snorkel, BUT, when I breath every third stroke, I do notice way less movement. So I'm assuming I'm bending at the waist when I breathe? Less breathing = less fishtailing? Without a video or a coach watching, I'm only assuming.
I notice my time on a 100 with a buoy and band is about the same as w/o, and I'm 4 seconds slower with a band and no buoy. I would think that with kicking I'd be faster (I'm not using paddles).
Second, on the kick sets. I'm mixing those up, some on back, some dolphin, some flutter, some breaststroke kick (not sure what that one is called). Is that okay? Or did you want us to get in longer flutterkick intervals?
Last, will you be helping me fix my kick timing? 2-beat, 6-beat, none of that makes sense to me. As a bass player you'd think I have rhythm, but I have NO clue if my legs and arms are in sync.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
A) that's easy to fix, but we're not there yet. it's easy to fix but it does take concentration.
B) don't worry about that. ignore that for now.
C) if your legs sink it could be that your head is too high in the water. dev paul wrote on a thread somewhere about this challenge that during some of the drills (1-arm pulls) he was practicing the discipline of 1 eye in 1 eye out of the water during breathing.

I am trying to work on that split screen view (one eye overwater, one eye underwater) while doing all drills and all sets now (at least when i can remember). On my right side breathing I can do it even with band and no buoy. On the left side it is a lost cause. I believe I have pin pointed the problem to my right hip not rotating into the water enough and my left hip not upward enough. The outcome, I think is the hips are flatter in the water when breahting left, and my body fishtails left and I can't ever get to the split screen view and have to lift my head to breath. I am trying to push my head into the water during breathing left to force things, but I think the hips are the problem here.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [JoelO] [ In reply to ]
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JoelO wrote:
How's everyone liking those kick sets? My best 25 yd sprint kick has been 25 secs. I really slow down when I go further...about 1:05-1:10 for a 50 and (last night) 2:42-2:46 for a couple of 100's. I know the workout called for 4x50 kick but I wanted to see what my 100 number looked like. Kicking fast is hard, especially when you don't have great ankle flexibility.

Kicking is hard when it takes 1:58 to kick 25 yards! True story here. So screw kicking and just tuck them behind the torso.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Billyk24] [ In reply to ]
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"Kicking is hard when it takes 1:58 to kick 25 yards!"

i have 2 things to offer:

1. get yourself some zoomers.

2. if you don't get yourself some zoomers (i never did), you will be kicking twice as fast as you are kicking now by the end of this 10-week challenge. just kick. try different things. forget what people tell you. yes, there is a textbook way to kick. there is a way swimmers will tell you to kick. "kick from the hip." yes, that's true. still, forget all that stuff. just kick. see what it is that gets you across the pool. kick with an almost-straight leg; and then with more bend in the knee. perform big kicks slowly; little kicks quickly. toes in; toes out. just keep kicking. keep trying. eventually, sooner than you think, you'll find a way to make forward progress.

in the end it won't matter much. most of the propulsion will get done without your feet being much involved. but it will matter some, and by the time we're doing you'll absolutely be kicking a 50 in under 2 minutes and maybe under 1 minute.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Just started last week! Thanks a lot for these.
I don't understand the main set. Is Guppy, Tuna, Tarpon code for anything.. Like slower to faster? I'm not familiar with my fish species.. or maybe I missed instructions because I'm late to the challenge, apologies. When do you suggest we try the different buoy/band combinations, during the main set?
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Tri Sucker] [ In reply to ]
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guppies: slower swimmers. if you're a better swimmer you swim more yards in the main set.
tarpon: better swimmer.
tuna: a much better swimmer.

just to the guppy yards if you're a guppy.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I've been following this tough, awesome program and my speed and endurance have improved a lot already. I'm just starting week 7 but due to starting a 20 week HIM program I'm reducing the swimming yardage cause I felt like I was over-training when I was just doing the full swim workouts and had to take a week off...

Anyway, do you happen to have a video of an ideal stroke during the 1-arm pull drill? I can keep my arm raised but I'm not sure if my breathing and pulling technique is good enough. I feel this drill is getting easier and smoother... but I see different variations of this drill on YouTube. Do you have one in particular you can point us to like you have with the other drills?

Thanks,
Alex
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [alexkeoni] [ In reply to ]
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I think I found a good example of the 1-arm pulls. Found this while searching for another slow hesitation video cause the timing was difficult at first in the water today.

1-arm pulls at 3:25 with her arm extended in front. The timing of the breathing also seems very good which is what I struggled with at first also..

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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [alexkeoni] [ In reply to ]
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Mine looks just like that! Not.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I finally, after 3 or 4 tries, completed the Week 1 Workout 1 session. I never completed one before because I got tired, ran out of time, or started feeling a weird twinge in my shoulder/pec. My last 150 intervals felt super slow but the clock says I'm doing them around the same pace as the others.

Ordered a snorkel.




Your favorite mafia sucks.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [bryce_d] [ In reply to ]
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progress!

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Progress, and I feel better knowing I'm doing something productive, rather than just getting in and hammering out straight 2000m sets like I normally do and then calling it a day.




Your favorite mafia sucks.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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I have been swimming with a band a couple weeks now. Whenever I swim without a buoy my legs tend to sink and before I finish 25 yard my feet are bouncing off the shallow end and it is like my waist is bending at something close to a 90 degree angle. Something is clearly wrong. Any tips or suggestions or anything I can read on what I am doing wrong?
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Snowvols] [ In reply to ]
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you need to float your legs if you swim with a band. either the band must also serve as the flotation (inflated wheelbarrow tube) or you need to stick a pull buoy in between your thighs.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Tried day 1 of the week 2 challenge. I added fins for the first two 100s of the 1-arm pulls. Wanted to experience the momemtum, instead of the stall and sink. Big difference. When I did the third and fourth 100s of the 1-arm pulls I was much more aware of my kick.

The Y where I swim has a bunch of buoys. I grabbed a stretchy exercise band from the house and used that in combination with the buoy. Wrapped the ankles and buoy and took off. By the end of each length I was swimming at about a 45 degree angle - legs were sinking even with the buoy.

Pretty sure the lifeguard thought I was having some sort of seizure when used the buoy and tried breathing on my left side. One of my new year's resolutions was to get better (start) breathing on the left. Been doing it consistently during warm up / cool down laps. I know my technique needs work when I breathe on the right side. When doing these exercises and trying to breathe on the left, I look like I'm just learning how to swim.

I could really feel the fishtailing motion when I did the 200s. Minimal action (my perception) when breathing on the right. When breathing on the left, the legs went one way and shoulders/arms when the other.

Thanks for the challenge!!! I'm enjoying the work.
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Re: Guppy Challenge, Week-2 [phishtales] [ In reply to ]
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phishtales wrote:
Tried day 1 of the week 2 challenge. I added fins for the first two 100s of the 1-arm pulls. Wanted to experience the momemtum, instead of the stall and sink. Big difference. When I did the third and fourth 100s of the 1-arm pulls I was much more aware of my kick.

The Y where I swim has a bunch of buoys. I grabbed a stretchy exercise band from the house and used that in combination with the buoy. Wrapped the ankles and buoy and took off. By the end of each length I was swimming at about a 45 degree angle - legs were sinking even with the buoy.

Pretty sure the lifeguard thought I was having some sort of seizure when used the buoy and tried breathing on my left side. One of my new year's resolutions was to get better (start) breathing on the left. Been doing it consistently during warm up / cool down laps. I know my technique needs work when I breathe on the right side. When doing these exercises and trying to breathe on the left, I look like I'm just learning how to swim.

I could really feel the fishtailing motion when I did the 200s. Minimal action (my perception) when breathing on the right. When breathing on the left, the legs went one way and shoulders/arms when the other.

Thanks for the challenge!!! I'm enjoying the work.

i know this sounds counterintuitive, or downright mean, but i'm very glad you're having all these problems. if you weren't, and it was all going hunky dory, i'd be at a loss to help you get faster. we know the disease. and we know the cure.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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