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'16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB.
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It has been a couple weeks since Ironman Arizona, where I had a personal best performance in 8:48. I haven't written any race reports for quite a while, but with the PB, I wanted to put some thoughts down.The race itself wasn’t particularly exciting, which is usually a good thing when it comes to Ironman age group racing. I just went out and did my thing, which looked a little like this:

Swim: 58:42 (2nd best IM swim, best since 2012).

Lined up in the queue behind the fence to the far left and was first down the stairs on the left side and dove in. Clear water and good line, which meant taking it wide of the buoy line almost the whole way. No contact until the very last 100m or so when we converged back to the stairs to exit the water. If there was a difference compared to most of my IMs, it’s that I swam it a little harder than usual, but felt strong from start to finish…racing at an elevation 4,000 feet lower than at home in Colorado is GREAT!

Bike: 4:42.55

Rode pretty steady from lap to lap, but the way each lap was split shows a little excitement on the first outbound lap and what I perceived to be slightly different wind conditions on the second and third laps. RPE was steady from lap to lap.

1) 219/228 (230/237 outbound, 204/212 back to town)
2) 219/223 (225/229 outbound, 211/215 back to town)
3) 217/223 (223/227 outbound, 208/217 back to town)
4) Full ride: 218/225

Each lap was right at about 1:34, so quite consistent. I wasn’t really paying much attention to my power output, and more or less just rode on autopilot. This was however, my highest power output out of my prior four IMs.



Run: 3:02.09

This was my third best IM run, with my top two being at 3:00.26 and 3:00.40, and all three of these being at IMAZ incidentally. I’ve also run 3:02 twice in Kona and 3:03 once at Coeur d’Alene. The biggest thing of note with the run was that I ran completely by feel – I had planned on turning on my Garmin in T2, but it never fired up and I left it there. Judging by the splits on SportStats, it appears that I came through the halfway point in exactly 1:30.00, which is a bit quick. I prefer to settle into my IM runs and finish stronger than I start. If I had a functioning watch, I likely would have run the first half a little slower with the hope of running the second half a little faster. Who knows if the outcome would have been a time in the 3:00-3:01 range, or even breaking 3hrs. But I’m not complaining about a 3:02, especially with having run 3:10, 3:16 and 3:12 in my last 3 IMs!



Where my “secrets” lie with regard to prep for this race and how I feel like they influenced my outcome:

Swim: This was my 3rd IM in 3-1/2 months (Boulder and Kona were the two prior). Heading into Boulder and Kona, I basically did “just enough” to feel like I could get by with a respectable swim. After Kona, almost all of my swims were with neoprene shorts, primarily because Arizona is a wetsuit swim. But this also allowed me to swim a little harder from a “catch and pull” standpoint and not have to be too concerned about what my lower body was doing energy expenditure wise. I knocked out a couple 5500m swims heading into Arizona and felt like I could have gone another 1000-1500 during those workouts. Heading into the race, I felt 58:xx was totally within reason.

Bike: All year, I rode exactly once in excess of 4hrs during training, and that ride was about 4:10. After Kona, I loaded all my weekly riding into 3-day blocks, knocking out 9-12 hours of riding in three days and not doing any other riding the rest of the week. I did a crap ton of 3-4 hour rides this year. This wasn’t necessarily by design, but due more to my “life schedule.”

Run: I think the biggest difference with my 3:02 run was that I took the Q-Rings off my bike and went back to round rings. The Q-Rings were new this year and they felt great while riding, BUT I’ve had quite sub-standard runs off the bike in all my long-course races this season for no apparent reason (nothing glaring with training or nutrition)…I just had no “pop” in my legs straight out of T2 at Boulder 70.3, IM Boulder or Kona. At Arizona, I felt like my normal self again coming out of T2. As with the bike, I wasn’t pounding out any big miles this year. Longest run all year was 18 miles, longest after Kona was 13. Put in four weeks all year in excess of 35 miles.

How was I able to have such a strong performance on my 3rd IM in a fairly short window of time? I don’t feel like I really hammered either Boulder or Kona – they were more like long training days and representative of my fitness at the time of those races. Neither of those two runs were particularly stellar, which is where the real “damage” can happen – so I didn’t feel all that beat up after those two races, either from training or the races themselves. Couple that with the great fall weather we had in Colorado and I was able to put in a very strong block of training after a couple weeks of downtime after Kona.

I’m pretty stoked to have been able to string it all together and have my 13th IM - and 3rd at age 40 - be the best one yet. I think the pic below pretty well captures what I was feeling when I finished...pretty overwhelmed!



_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
Last edited by: darkhorsetri: Dec 8, 16 12:39
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome race Steve, thanks for sharing. Could you tell us a bit more about your nutrition (both bike/run)? I see flasks in both hands on the run.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Awesome result !

A few questions if I may 1) how much do you weigh 2) have you been to the wind tunnel as you are clearly very aero.

Cheers Steve
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [snaaijert] [ In reply to ]
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snaaijert wrote:
Awesome race Steve, thanks for sharing. Could you tell us a bit more about your nutrition (both bike/run)? I see flasks in both hands on the run.

No problem: this year I decided to switch things up and ended up going with the most convenient option, which was to move to the course-supplied Gatorade on the bike. I supplemented with GU chews that I had in a bento on my top tube. I took one Chew every 15 minutes in addition to the Gatorade and was taking in anywhere from 250-270cals/hour combined. I also grabbed a water bottle at each aid station and drank as much as I could before reaching the "last chance trash" at the end of each station.

On the run, I had ~3 GU caffeinated gels in each flask and filled the remainder with water so it was less viscous. I had two flasks in my T2 bag and grabbed a third at special needs. At nearly every aid station I grabbed a cup of water and got in as much in my mouth as I could.

Thanks!

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
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UKINNY wrote:
Awesome result !

A few questions if I may 1) how much do you weigh 2) have you been to the wind tunnel as you are clearly very aero.

Cheers Steve

Thanks!

I weigh 170lbs....and have never been to the tunnel, nor tested my position/equipment. I have just read this forum and have gone with a lot of the "works for most people" options with regard to equipment and position. Super unscientific, I know - but it was worked for the most part.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations! amazing performance!

Seems like few run volume for a 3:02. Do you include a lot of intensity in your runs and work @ or above threshold?
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Congratulations! amazing performance!

Seems like few run volume for a 3:02. Do you include a lot of intensity in your runs and work @ or above threshold?

Thanks!

I turned 40 this year and promptly developed Achilles and high hamstring issues, so intensity was virtually non-existent. During my Kona build, I did more hilly routes during training to toughen up my legs a bit.

I've never been a high volume runner and up until a couple years ago after I ran my first 3:02 IM marathon, most of my weekly volume was in the mid 30s. Over the last few years I added more mileage, doing more 40+ mile weeks and getting into the 50s a couple times. Honestly, I think more mileage for me did more harm than good.

When I'm out running, I'm always trying to be on-point with my form, with my favorite mental cures being cadence, firm core, running tall, staying loose with hands and shoulders. Running economy will go a long way with regard to performance in long course racing.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Nice information about the things to focus while running.

High intensity for the run doesn't help me neither, so have included Hill repeats as well since some months ago.

Thanks
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Did you have this post in mind when you put your occupation as "Dream Crusher" for IMAZ? (IIRC.) I always assumed your results were attained through high volume and/or high intensity and therefore within reach if I kept working hard. Only 30-some miles/week; only 9-12 hours/week ... consider my dreams crushed ;)

Kudos on another great race. I did almost all my swims the last 8 weeks before AZ with neoprene shorts as well (never before). It allowed me to swim faster and harder for longer. I had my best swim ever at IMAZ--by a big margin.

It is interesting to contrast your calorie intake with Joel Maley's ~400cal/hr, especially considering your relative size. Thanks for sharing.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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darkhorsetri wrote:
...have never been to the tunnel, nor tested my position/equipment. I have just read this forum and have gone with a lot of the "works for most people" options with regard to equipment and position. Super unscientific...


this is actually pretty scientific, and the preferred way to do things. A good fit will get you a long way. Congrats Mr. .220 CdA.

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
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Last edited by: ericMPro: Dec 8, 16 11:46
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [pabloarc] [ In reply to ]
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pabloarc wrote:
Nice information about the things to focus while running.

High intensity for the run doesn't help me neither, so have included Hill repeats as well since some months ago.

Thanks

The hills we have around here can vary from loooong, consistent 2-mile grades to really short and steep pitches on dirt roads at 8,500 feet. You have no choice to pay attention to form if you want to conserve your energy and not injure yourself by just plowing ahead. Running in CO is pretty awesome. :)

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [mdm81] [ In reply to ]
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mdm81 wrote:
Did you have this post in mind when you put your occupation as "Dream Crusher" for IMAZ? (IIRC.) I always assumed your results were attained through high volume and/or high intensity and therefore within reach if I kept working hard. Only 30-some miles/week; only 9-12 hours/week ... consider my dreams crushed ;)

Kudos on another great race. I did almost all my swims the last 8 weeks before AZ with neoprene shorts as well (never before). It allowed me to swim faster and harder for longer. I had my best swim ever at IMAZ--by a big margin.

It is interesting to contrast your calorie intake with Joel Maley's ~400cal/hr, especially considering your relative size. Thanks for sharing.

Haha - I try not to take myself too seriously. I like to have a little fun with the occupation field while registering for races.

More than anything, I'd say my results are a result of being consistently active since I was a teenager. Years and years of consistent 30 mile weeks (granted I chose the right parents), will pay off in the long run. I've also never lost much time due to injury; the ~6 weeks earlier this past winter from my Achilles was the longest (by far) setback I've ever had from an injury.

As to the neoprene shorts, I've used them for the past three years or so and much prefer them over a pull buoy - more wetsuit race specificity, and allow for kicking and better rotation and balance than I can get with a pull buoy. I won't use them if I have a race on the horizon that either won't be wetsuit legal or is usually borderline. But for a race like IMAZ, for me it was a no-brainer.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats! Saw you coming back across the bridge as I was heading out and figured you were crushing it.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Five more years (til I'm 40) of consistency and maybe your swim and bike splits are attainable (you had me by ~7 min in each at AZ), but that run is something special.

Spectating at IMAZ 2014 and watching you, Scott Iott, Rob Gray, and a few others really race that day was a big turning point and eye opener for me. It moved me from treating IM as a gran fondo type thing to a competition. So thanks for that--I think.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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ericMPro wrote:
darkhorsetri wrote:
...have never been to the tunnel, nor tested my position/equipment. I have just read this forum and have gone with a lot of the "works for most people" options with regard to equipment and position. Super unscientific...


this is actually pretty scientific, and the preferred way to do things. A good fit will get you a long way. Congrats Mr. .220 CdA.

I still feel like there are still gains that can be made....maybe the next time I'm in CH - my sister lives in Durham, after all.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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I weigh 170lbs....[`Quote]

And how tall???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [mdm81] [ In reply to ]
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mdm81 wrote:
Five more years (til I'm 40) of consistency and maybe your swim and bike splits are attainable (you had me by ~7 min in each at AZ), but that run is something special.

Spectating at IMAZ 2014 and watching you, Scott Iott, Rob Gray, and a few others really race that day was a big turning point and eye opener for me. It moved me from treating IM as a gran fondo type thing to a competition. So thanks for that--I think.

You're welcome?

This year was almost deja vu with Scott. We had identical separation at both miles 2 & 15 this year, which was close to the margin we had in '14 at the same points - 2-3 minutes. Fortunately for me, I held on to it a little better during the last 10 miles than he did this time around. Now only if Rob would quit doing that crazy ultra man stuff and Scott Bowe and I would sync up the years that we race at IMAZ, then well - that would be a lot of fun!

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
I weigh 170lbs....[`Quote]

And how tall???

6 feet on a good day.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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darkhorsetri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
I weigh 170lbs....[`Quote]

And how tall???


6 feet on a good day.

Wow, 6' and 170...I was guessing 5'11" to 6' but only 155-160 at most as you look quite thin. Anyway, obv that ht/wt works very well for you.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Tremendous work Steve!!!
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
darkhorsetri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
I weigh 170lbs....[`Quote]

And how tall???


6 feet on a good day.

Wow, 6' and 170...I was guessing 5'11" to 6' but only 155-160 at most as you look quite thin. Anyway, obv that ht/wt works very well for you.

I've been this weight since high school. I was a lightweight rower in college and during the summer sprint season for Nationals and worlds trials, etc, I was always the boat "fattie" - was always a major struggle to get below 160 to make weight.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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darkhorsetri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
darkhorsetri wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
I weigh 170lbs....[`Quote]

And how tall???


6 feet on a good day.


Wow, 6' and 170...I was guessing 5'11" to 6' but only 155-160 at most as you look quite thin. Anyway, obv that ht/wt works very well for you.


I've been this weight since high school. I was a lightweight rower in college and during the summer sprint season for Nationals and worlds trials, etc, I was always the boat "fattie" - was always a major struggle to get below 160 to make weight.

I guess the reason I was surprised is that I'm about 6'1.5" and 175 but I think our weight distro is diff. I have your typ swimmer's build with long arms and long legs, big hands/feet, broad shoulders, etc, but with thinner legs than yours. You appear to have more muscle in your legs which is part of why you're faster on the bike whereas I'm faster in the water. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Congratulations on a great race! Thanks for sharing.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Great race Steve. It's was great meeting you.

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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [jmaley] [ In reply to ]
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jmaley wrote:
Great race Steve. It's was great meeting you.

Thanks to everyone who has commented here - good discussion.

Good to meet you too, Joel. I must admit that when I saw you coming like a freight train at the mile 8 turnaround, I thought there was no way you would be able to keep up that kind of pace/effort for another 18 miles. I figured I'd be seeing you walking somewhere after mile 20. ;)

Congrats on a fantastic race yourself!

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Great race Steve and that's an even more amazing result considering the relatively low volume putting down a near pro time with half the training of most pros. Do you have a few weeks over the year where you ratchet it up to 20-24 hours every so often. Do you think that if you have more pro type training weeks you could get down in the 8:20's?
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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So that's what that finish line looks like in the light. :)

Nice job.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Great race Steve and that's an even more amazing result considering the relatively low volume putting down a near pro time with half the training of most pros. Do you have a few weeks over the year where you ratchet it up to 20-24 hours every so often. Do you think that if you have more pro type training weeks you could get down in the 8:20's?

I exceeded 19 hours once this year, never broke 20. This was my 14th year in the sport, with 7-8 years of consistent rowing prior to that. With the cumulative number of hours that I've spent training over the last 20-25 years, I really don't think that ratcheting my hours up by 25-30% would improve my performance all that much, nor be a good thing for my 40 year old body with two boys under 5. However, I think improvements could be made if I redistributed my hours during blocks of the year where I focused primarily on 1-2 disciplines at a time.

I've toyed with increasing my run mileage over the last several years without any real benefit, IMO. I feel I'm pretty maxed out with my running ability. The "big" gains, if there are any to be made, are likely on the bike. If I put more hours on the bike and pushed the effort a little more, I think I could conceivably ride 40-50 watts higher than I did at IMAZ.

The question then comes down to "if" I want to do that.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Good Race.

interesting comparison between us.

Same bike split, per lap too.

Same watts. ( although a wt 140 lbs)

Different bikes, wheels, helmets, clothing and bike fit positions.

I guess it's just all about watts. Save you money everyone.

FYI I rode a felt AI14 with Stock carbon clincher 50mm with no butyl tubes

Good luck in Kona.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Great race Steve!

What size chain ring and crank length are you using?


Bruce
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks Steve for sharing and agreed with that background, there are diminishing returns. The run volume thing I think everyone has to find their personal sweet spot. My fastest 10K, 21K and marathon races were all done on 25-35 miles per week. I tried the 60 mile weeks and ran slower. I even experimented once with a 100 mile week in the midst of a large run block and that was a disaster....but 4 months later, my running was flying for me in tris.

Would have been interesting to have seen what you could have done putting in pro like tri training in your late 20's to early 30's though with some 30-50K swim weeks and at different times 20-30 hour bike weeks.
Last edited by: devashish_paul: Dec 9, 16 19:55
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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Triathletetoth wrote:
Good Race.

interesting comparison between us.

Same bike split, per lap too.

Same watts. ( although a wt 140 lbs)

Different bikes, wheels, helmets, clothing and bike fit positions.

I guess it's just all about watts. Save you money everyone.

FYI I rode a felt AI14 with Stock carbon clincher 50mm with no butyl tubes

Good luck in Kona.

I'm not sure I follow your logic...you pushed the same watts but you are 30 lbs. lighter and had the same bike split? Seems to me that the bigger guy pushing the same watts is quite a bit more aerodynamic, no?
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for sharing and well done. I have a question about your effort on the bike. You see a lot of conventional wisdom about how experienced athletes should average ~75% FTP for a well paced IM bike leg. You're obviously an experienced athlete, but my guess is that your ftp is well above 290W.

My FTP is 310-320 and I'm a mediocre 155-160 pound racer (that ftp number is undoubtedly higher than when I raced my last IM five years ago, five years of intense CX training has helped). Even assuming that you and I put out the same W/kg at FTP (highly unlikely) that would put your FTP around 340W and your 'ideal' IM output at 255W, almost 40 watts more than actual.

My question is this: did you purposely go easier than you 'could' to set yourself up for a strong run, or did you just ride at a pace/effort/wattage that felt comfortable?

Also, I have to say I'm a bit shocked at 218 average watts and a 4:42 split. I honestly thought splits like that were only possible averaging ~300W. Well done.

------------------------------------------------------------
Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [bantjh2o] [ In reply to ]
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bantjh2o wrote:
Great race Steve!

What size chain ring and crank length are you using?

Thanks!

I used a 53T outer ring (never shifted out of it) and 170mm cranks. For next year, I'm playing with the idea of going to a 1x and 10-155mm shorter cranks.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks Steve for sharing and agreed with that background, there are diminishing returns. The run volume thing I think everyone has to find their personal sweet spot. My fastest 10K, 21K and marathon races were all done on 25-35 miles per week. I tried the 60 mile weeks and ran slower. I even experimented once with a 100 mile week in the midst of a large run block and that was a disaster....but 4 months later, my running was flying for me in tris.

Would have been interesting to have seen what you could have done putting in pro like tri training in your late 20's to early 30's though with some 30-50K swim weeks and at different times 20-30 hour bike weeks.

Yeah, I sometimes wonder what would have been the case if I ever went "all in" with tri training and racing. But then again, there's a decent chance I'd be 5+ years removed from the sport by now if I had ever done that, but had gone faster at my peak.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
Triathletetoth wrote:
Good Race.

interesting comparison between us.

Same bike split, per lap too.

Same watts. ( although a wt 140 lbs)

Different bikes, wheels, helmets, clothing and bike fit positions.

I guess it's just all about watts. Save you money everyone.

FYI I rode a felt AI14 with Stock carbon clincher 50mm with no butyl tubes

Good luck in Kona.


I'm not sure I follow your logic...you pushed the same watts but you are 30 lbs. lighter and had the same bike split? Seems to me that the bigger guy pushing the same watts is quite a bit more aerodynamic, no?

+1

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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darkhorsetri wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Thanks Steve for sharing and agreed with that background, there are diminishing returns. The run volume thing I think everyone has to find their personal sweet spot. My fastest 10K, 21K and marathon races were all done on 25-35 miles per week. I tried the 60 mile weeks and ran slower. I even experimented once with a 100 mile week in the midst of a large run block and that was a disaster....but 4 months later, my running was flying for me in tris.

Would have been interesting to have seen what you could have done putting in pro like tri training in your late 20's to early 30's though with some 30-50K swim weeks and at different times 20-30 hour bike weeks.


Yeah, I sometimes wonder what would have been the case if I ever went "all in" with tri training and racing. But then again, there's a decent chance I'd be 5+ years removed from the sport by now if I had ever done that, but had gone faster at my peak.

We are fortunate that this sport allows us to do it for a long time. It is rare that top pros keep doing it at a high level 10-15 years after their top performance. I think Craig Alexander and Cam Brown continue to be great examples of what is possible, but most either lose interest in going fast or want to move on to another career. Nevertheless, at least on the surface, it seems that you COULD have been an 8:1x/8:2x guy if you were all in during your late 20's in this vs doing it as a family guy in your late 30's early 40's (basically you're in the same boat right now as Craig Alexander and Cam Brown except they were all in as athletes earlier in life).
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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CCF wrote:
Thanks for sharing and well done. I have a question about your effort on the bike. You see a lot of conventional wisdom about how experienced athletes should average ~75% FTP for a well paced IM bike leg. You're obviously an experienced athlete, but my guess is that your ftp is well above 290W.

My FTP is 310-320 and I'm a mediocre 155-160 pound racer (that ftp number is undoubtedly higher than when I raced my last IM five years ago, five years of intense CX training has helped). Even assuming that you and I put out the same W/kg at FTP (highly unlikely) that would put your FTP around 340W and your 'ideal' IM output at 255W, almost 40 watts more than actual.

My question is this: did you purposely go easier than you 'could' to set yourself up for a strong run, or did you just ride at a pace/effort/wattage that felt comfortable?

Also, I have to say I'm a bit shocked at 218 average watts and a 4:42 split. I honestly thought splits like that were only possible averaging ~300W. Well done.


I've ridden as high as 243w for an IM and that was a disaster. I've also had low 3 runs having ridden in the mid 230s for rides in the 4:50s on other courses. I also rode 4:29 at IM Boulder in '15 on something like 208w.

So for me, I've fiddled with my effort levels during IMs, in addition to toying with my position and equipment to find my happy place with regard to effort and speed - and still being able to run well.

You read about the "conventional wisdom" for IM power, and you'll also read here just how easy you have to ride in order to have a good run....going to vary from person to person, how long they're on the bike course, their preparation, yadda yadda yadda. I have an athlete who rode 213w with a 330 FTP and went 4:35 at IMAZ. Everyone is going to have their own magic equation that can oftentimes take years to figure out.

FWIW however, I test in the low 360s for 20min power and the mid 420s for 5min power.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
Last edited by: darkhorsetri: Dec 10, 16 7:20
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats on your PR. That's a great time.
Do you have a ST training log, and if not, do you mind sharing exactly what that 19-hr week looked like? I read the post in which you described how you rode 9-12 hours over the course of 3 days because that's what worked life-wise, but I'm curious where you fit the swim and running workouts in around that.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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Great race Steve. Have your plugged your data into BBS? My guess your CDA is very low. You look a lot lighter than your picture suggests but pictures can be deceiving.

I think your a good example on being patient in this sport. Too many of us (myself included) want to rush to get that Kona slot. But I think you summed it up pretty good. You have a lot of aerobic development over the years from rowing to consistent running. I missed my Kona slot by one slot this year but I keep reminding myself that I've been only doing this for 6 years and never had an athletic background beside pick up basketball sometimes on the week-end as a kid. If I'm consistent, I will eventually get it.

I do have one question.....How fast/slow do you run in your training?
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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tigerchik wrote:
Congrats on your PR. That's a great time.
Do you have a ST training log, and if not, do you mind sharing exactly what that 19-hr week looked like? I read the post in which you described how you rode 9-12 hours over the course of 3 days because that's what worked life-wise, but I'm curious where you fit the swim and running workouts in around that.

I do not have an ST training log. But that specific week was a Sun-Sat 7-day stretch and included a 1/2IM at the end of the week, which was more of a training day than a "race", especially considering that it was held at an elevation of 9200 feet.

But anyway, that week looked like this:

Sun: 2hr run
Mon: 4100m swim
Tues: 3400y swim, 2:45 ride
Weds: 2:15 ride, 35min run
Thurs: 3400y swim, 3:35 ride
Fri: 40min run
Sat: 35min swim, 2:35 ride, 1:30 run (1/2IM)

Another 18hr week from M-Su looked something like this:

M: 3500m swim, 20min run
T: 4:00 bike, 15min run
W: 3:00 bike
Th: 4hr bike, 30min run
F: 5500m swim, 30min run
Sa: 1:30 run
Su: 2600m swim, 1:00 run

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [trimac2] [ In reply to ]
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trimac2 wrote:
Great race Steve. Have your plugged your data into BBS? My guess your CDA is very low. You look a lot lighter than your picture suggests but pictures can be deceiving.

I think your a good example on being patient in this sport. Too many of us (myself included) want to rush to get that Kona slot. But I think you summed it up pretty good. You have a lot of aerobic development over the years from rowing to consistent running. I missed my Kona slot by one slot this year but I keep reminding myself that I've been only doing this for 6 years and never had an athletic background beside pick up basketball sometimes on the week-end as a kid. If I'm consistent, I will eventually get it.

I do have one question.....How fast/slow do you run in your training?

I haven't used BBS in well over a year.

If anything, I'm a patient person - and yeah, that will help in this sport. I also started doing sprints, Olys and 1/2IMs for the first six years I was in the sport...and it took several years of doing IMs, slowly chipping away, to really figure out how to race them in a way that best suits my abilities.

With regard to my running; if I'm going to head out and "just run", that's usually finds me at a pace in the mid to low 6:50s. I do however, head to the treadmill in order to control effort/pace on easy, short days - of which I'll do a lot. Those days, you'll see me running in the mid to upper 8s, and I'll toss in several 30sec strides building into the mid to low 6s.

_________________________________
Steve Johnson
DARK HORSE TRIATHLON |
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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Not on a flat course. On a flat course like Florida and Arizona watts win vs watts/ kg.

up hills yes.watts/ kg I am very fast ;) Down hill I pedal hard to keep up. :(

e.g. Whistler I beat a 170 lbs guy by 20 minutes with all those long climbs, Arizona he beats me by one minute ( basically same watts avg for us)

another example is of an Olympic distance race in sept me vs another pro power file. We both held the same watts per kg avg of 4.20. For him hat was 311 watts for me it was 280.

I beat him during the hill section of 5-6 km and on the flat section he beat me. overall with the race having 5-6 km hills and 30 km flats he was ahead by 2 minutes.

If you are big watts but not watts per kg go to flat course if you are high watts per kg go to hills.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [darkhorsetri] [ In reply to ]
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No I am aero Jack Mott gave me top mark so it must be true.....

wt and forces at work here not much to do with air especially at such slow speeds.

I did the race last year with
deeper rims........ same time....

two years ago disc cover plus aero helmet.... same watts and time.....

I know different weather but same circle loop.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [Triathletetoth] [ In reply to ]
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That still doesn't make sense to me. The OP outweighs you by 30 lbs yet you had the same time on the same watts. By definition, he had the same time as you on far fewer watts/kg. I'm not saying that you aren't aerodynamic, but clearly the OP has you beat in this arena. If I were you, I would draw the opposite conclusion, i.e. spend more not less on optimizing your position.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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chrisgrigsby wrote:
That still doesn't make sense to me. The OP outweighs you by 30 lbs yet you had the same time on the same watts. By definition, he had the same time as you on far fewer watts/kg. I'm not saying that you aren't aerodynamic, but clearly the OP has you beat in this arena. If I were you, I would draw the opposite conclusion, i.e. spend more not less on optimizing your position.

It should take the same amount of watts for 2 riders with the exact same CdA to get across the bike course. I guess you're asking if the lighter rider can get more aero. Maybe, maybe not. Also keep in mind that whether the riders is lighter or heavier it's the same drag to push two 700C wheels through the air, and probably the frames are close. Can the lighter rider get more aero. Without seeing the shapes of both of their legs and torsos, and current position, well know knows? However you cut it, the lighter rider is going to devote a larger percent of his watts per kilo towards moving those wheels forward than the heavier rider. That's just the math.
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [chrisgrigsby] [ In reply to ]
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This is so stupid to say without even seeing my position or the fact I just outlined that at the same watts per kg and VI, and conditions vs a heavy rider when we hold the same watts on a flat we go the same speed once a hill is present 3% -6 % I go faster. even with wind.

watts per kg is a function of riding skill not overall speed. how well for your wt can you apply your mass.

Have you ever gottent past by a semi up a mountain in your car, likely NO.
Do they pass you on the high way flats even though you are going the speed limit YES are they more Aero NO.
Is there power ( horse power / kg much higher on the flats NO.

anyways.... I don't want to highjack Steve's thread. This is about him and his day out there.

If you want to know more research inertia vs mass. Not being rude just saves me a lot of typing. And can save you a lot of time and money!

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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Re: '16 IM Arizona RR - Lucky #13...with an 8:48 PB. [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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I wrote a few things but deleted. I don't think we should use this thread to discuss things it's about steves Race. I didn't want to take it over I was just pointing out to STEVE he did great. I sucked, and we had the same numbers.

I have ridden a P5, a P3 and a felt AI 14 and tons of wheel choice with different set ups at the same power on the flats on my 3 x 6.66 km (20 km) loop the results are always the same. I need more power or a hills.

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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