Got this email from Virtual Training today:

Saris has become the Rudy Project of power meters.

Meaning crappy, overrated products or shamelessly marketing at Kona?

Saris has become the Rudy Project of power meters.

Who will be the #1 power meter at Kona this year?

My comment was probably meaner than is deserved.

I just find Powertap to be generally unprofitable products that are being given away to the "cool kids" to create a perception of value that is higher than is justified.

Shouldn't it be 50% off for those who DID'NT qualify to help them train better to potentially qualify one day...

There's a lot rolled up in that one sentence. Your second comment comes across even meaner than the first. I'm surprised to read this coming from you, and not quite understanding the vitriol.
Yes, they're doing exactly what you said. But so? Their job is to sell product. Where's the crime?

Haha yep! If someone at Powertap wants to send me a 50% off code, I'll order the P1 pedals today!

Haha yep! If someone at Powertap wants to send me a 50% off code, I'll order the P1 pedals today!

Haha yep! If someone at Powertap wants to send me a 50% off code, I'll order the P1 pedals today!

Agreed, I'm close to purchasing another power meter, but I'd bite on P1 pedals at 50 percent off. At full price, not so much...

If I understand what you are saying (a huge assumption on my part), the pedal is much thicker than a typical pedal (say Shimano Ultegra) and thus pushes you up higher requiring an increase in seat height to accommodate? Is that it? If so, how much are we talking about...1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, 1/2 inch??

Haha yep! If someone at Powertap wants to send me a 50% off code, I'll order the P1 pedals today!

They, like so many vendors, have confused their customers with their audience. The athlete is their audience, but the miracle pill of omnichannel has them confused.

I do not enjoy dealing with them as a vendor to my shop, and this is another example of a behavior pattern that is contrary to their rhetoric. My reasons are probably not appropriate for the board and are very "inside baseball", so to speak. I just think the future their behavior creates is an unprofitable one, and therefore an unsustainable one. I don't think an unsustainable future is good for anyone: retailer, vendor, and consumer alike.

If I understand what you are saying (a huge assumption on my part), the pedal is much thicker than a typical pedal (say Shimano Ultegra) and thus pushes you up higher requiring an increase in seat height to accommodate? Is that it? If so, how much are we talking about...1/8 inch, 1/4 inch, 1/2 inch??

I don't know why anyone is upset about missing out on this. You won't. Any Kona Qualifier with a brain is going to pick up a pair of pedals prior to the big day and dump them in the classifieds or on Ebay in late October. Much like all the Reynolds clinchers that got spit out of Wattie Ink and all the crappy Kona qualifier Rudy Project helmets over the years, this is just going to trickle down. Relax and wait.

I don't know why anyone is upset about missing out on this. You won't. Any Kona Qualifier with a brain is going to pick up a pair of pedals prior to the big day and dump them in the classifieds or on Ebay in late October. Much like all the Reynolds clinchers that got spit out of Wattie Ink and all the crappy Kona qualifier Rudy Project helmets over the years, this is just going to trickle down. Relax and wait.

New price for the P1s is $1200 + tax, what do you think the going rate for unused pedals that people bought for $600 plus tax will be?

I still think this is an odd move by Powertap, the negatives of pissing off non-eligible customers and putting downward pressure on their prices would seem to outweigh the positives of selling a few more power meters to Kona qualifiers at or near cost and the halo effect, whatever it might be, of the fact that more folks at Kona (mostly the less competitive ones, since the more competitive ones are less likely to be in the market for new power meters) will be using Powertaps.

Any KQ-ers want to get ahead of the game on this - PM me - I will take them off your hands at a reasonable profit

(Serious offer...)

My guess is they will sell for somewhere around $900, maybe a bit less. The enterprising Kona athlete will pocket a few hundred bucks cash.

I'm not sure I agree with you. Triathletes are sheep and conform to a fairly rigid hierarchy that rewards speed above all else. Kona qualifiers are the fastest in their respective triathlon microcosms, and they hail from all corners of the globe. If you sell a low cost/high margin product like Rudy Project, this would seem to be a fairly strong rogue marketing move. That said, I spoke with RP about this several years ago, and they said it was a huge financial hit -- not from the cost of the product itself so much as shipping all the stuff to Hawaii, paying for and running a big booth, operationalizing the whole thing, etc.

Actually, I don't understand what anyone is pissed off anyways. If you want in on deals like this, qualify for Kona.

Actually, I don't understand what anyone is pissed off anyways. If you want in on deals like this, qualify for Kona.

I could ask my friend to pick up one of the pedals since he just got his KQ and doesn't need another power meter :). OTOH I already have 2 Garmin Vectors so I don't need another PM either ;).

It is a very expensive product to hold inventory on and generally tough to get any kind of after market service revenue since powertap would do all warranty service anyway. What I have really never seen from any LBS is some kind of "Power package" so to speak where you buy x bike and you get y power meter for a bundled price.

This is why the Quarq Prime platform is a genius move by SRAM. You stock a spider and you can slap it on any Prime crankset. I doubt many LBSs stock PMs because which brand to stock? What model? What crank length? What bolt circle? And then the customer is thinking "why am I buying an entire crankset when I just want the crankset that is already on my bike to spit out watts?" Pointing to the customer's bike and saying "we're gonna replace that piece in the middle of your crank" is a lot easier than saying "well yeah you gotta buy a whole new crank, but you can sell the crank that's on your bike now on eBay."

Shouldn't it be 50% off for those who DID'NT qualify to help them train better to potentially qualify one day...

I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.

Shouldn't it be 50% off for those who DID'NT qualify to help them train better to potentially qualify one day...

I get that the stack height is taller than other pedals, but isn't that height effectively added to the bottom of the pedal? Hence some remarks about potentially clipping the pedals during corners in crits. They didn't really design the platform of the pedal to be higher off the ground so that you would need to adjust your seat post when switching from other pedals, right? That just seems like a horrible design choice.

I''m sure there is a charitable slowtwitch KQ'er who wants their unused code to be adopted into a good home, yes?

I await a PM. ;)

Meaning crappy, overrated products or shamelessly marketing at Kona?

Saris has become the Rudy Project of power meters.

Have you done any measurements Thomas, as I'm sure when the pedals came out I worked out that stack height was around 4mm more than my Time RXS's, and they had a stack of 12.5mm.

i got my coupon code this am, will buy tommorow, but im keeping my pedals i think.. need to swap between road/tri bike and moving cranksets got annoying

They could see 100% cannibalization (would be customers, and secondary market sales to would be customers) with no incremental business based on these Kona qualifying "influencers" and the halo effect from this campaign, or they could attract incremental business well above and beyond those cannibalization offsets.


A really big problem in the bike/tri business is that everyone is on on some sort of deal. So much so that it's now a built-in expectation. Almost nothing sells at MSRP - and the margins are thin there!!

But the bike/tri business has this massive discount culture now. Both suppliers and retailers, need to position things in a more up-scale way - think Apple, Starbucks etc . . not Dunkin Donuts and Walmart.

The problem is it's so endemic now, as I said, there is this built-in expectation of a discount on everything, everywhere for everyone!

Uhhhh, wut? Sorry your internal dealings with them have been sub par apparently, but in general Saris/PT is a pretty good company to work with as a dealer.

A 2016 Nissan Versa starts at $11,990. A specialized Venge ViAS costs $12,900. Granted these are fringe examples, but we still have an industry where I can probably find a dozen different bikes that cost more than cars. How could anyone argue that the cost of design and materials for a bicycle could exceed that of a car?

I don't really see this as a problem as bike manufacturers not being "upscale" enough, I see the drive for discounts to be a reflection of the reality of the actual value of the products offered. Every year the industry pumps out tons of new products that offer only marginal gains at best over the products they are replacing. Consumers are expected to pay a huge premium to have the latest and greatest meanwhile the resale on their widget from last year falls off a cliff.

How could an informed consumer for whom money actually is a consideration justify paying a several hundred percentage premium over buying a previous model stock or a used good condition for some trivial gain (if any at all) in performance? Really, you can't, hence everyone demands some sort of deal or discount to even consider it.

I don't work in the bike industry, this is not a problem for me to solve. I am simply a consumer and frankly if manufacturers choose to dedicate their time and energy on developing products like 10k+ bikes for the 0.1% instead of delivering real value to consumers then that is their decision, just don't expect me to contribute to your bottom line.

Shouldn't it be 50% off for those who DID'NT qualify to help them train better to potentially qualify one day...

WHY??? Who gets the lowest interest rates????? Surely not the people who have the least amount of money.

A 2016 Nissan Versa starts at $11,990. A specialized Venge ViAS costs $12,900. Granted these are fringe examples, but we still have an industry where I can probably find a dozen different bikes that cost more than cars. How could anyone argue that the cost of design and materials for a bicycle could exceed that of a car?

I don't really see this as a problem as bike manufacturers not being "upscale" enough, I see the drive for discounts to be a reflection of the reality of the actual value of the products offered. Every year the industry pumps out tons of new products that offer only marginal gains at best over the products they are replacing. Consumers are expected to pay a huge premium to have the latest and greatest meanwhile the resale on their widget from last year falls off a cliff.

How could an informed consumer for whom money actually is a consideration justify paying a several hundred percentage premium over buying a previous model stock or a used good condition for some trivial gain (if any at all) in performance? Really, you can't, hence everyone demands some sort of deal or discount to even consider it.

I don't work in the bike industry, this is not a problem for me to solve. I am simply a consumer and frankly if manufacturers choose to dedicate their time and energy on developing products like 10k+ bikes for the 0.1% instead of delivering real value to consumers then that is their decision, just don't expect me to contribute to your bottom line.

The fact that P1 pedals have such a large stack height is deal breaker. I don't really understand this one. People should be trying to get as low to the ground as possible, not sit up there in the sky.

So how does this work, do you have to be a Kona qualifier AND a paying Virtual Training customer to get this code?

Or is KQ enough? That's the easy part...

He he, no "Virtual Training" required, just KQ.

First I tried to get the $299 GS hub half off, that didn't work :-(
Ordered a pair of P1 pedals that I don't really need. $600 was just too good...

Sooo, about that left/right balance, anyone ever got any use out of it?

No 50% off on the still available $299 GS hub (which is already >50% off from the original price).
Bummer.

really??? 3mm is such a deal breaker for u?

having a pm that is accurate and doesn't need to be send every 3-6 months to a company with awesome customer service is more important to me.

also, I can use it on my trainer bike, old bike, road bike , tri-bike, single speed, *CX, etc... and still get the same numbers without worrying about how i gonna fit this crank/wheel/even pedal pod (garmin) on xyz bike.

Why would I want to give up any aeroness? Besides getting my self lower to the ground where wind speed is less, I also get a lower center of gravity. There are other benefits too but hopefully these are enough for you.

Well played!! I got nada. But 25% wouldn't be enough to motivate me anyways.

U must be riding circles around sanders with your 3mm closer to the ground setup.

Just FYI, these work on their wheelsets. Great deal for someone who is looking for a good set of race wheels at a great deal.

I don't quite understand your logic with this. No I don't ride circles around sanders because I don't put out 364 watts for a 70.3. I do ride "circles" around from a watts/kg perspective, because I focus on the little things. It all adds up. Why all the hate for marginal gains, even if it is small.

I think the whole brand ambassador thing is meaningless, if anything a nice gesture to the athletes


I agree, and as I mentioned previously, I've seen many instances where these ambassadors are NOT selling the value of the brand or the product, they are telling people how they can get the same deal!!

On your other point, I'm painting with a broad brush here, (there are some savvy/smart retailers out there) but many retailers are not terribly sophisticated and they interpret value and service, with giving as many people as possible a discount!

Fwiw, I have reached out to Powertap a couple of times. Over the years I have purchased 2.4 unit, a 2.4 SL, G3, and Disc all at full retail cost. I have always been a fan of Powertap, and they are about 3 miles from my home. A lot of times I like to purchase products just because I like to be more knowledgeable and experienced. Getting silo'd is not good. Anyway, I reached out them a couple of times, frankly, as a Powercranks user the chainrings or p1 pedals appeal to me - especially for a direct-drive trainer user. Unfortunately I never heard back but was happy to pay for them.

Now, maybe they think I wouldn't review them unfavorably. I dunno, but I do think this program is a decent program. You are right, it probably is more exposure than pros and certainly less hassle. On the flip side, I will say that most sponsorship people don't even know how to quantify the ROI of their pros. This is the number one question I ask when talking to sponsorship peeps. The sword cuts both ways.

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I'll pay someone $50 profit if they buy the pedals for me :D

I'll pay someone $50 profit if they buy the pedals for me :D

Uhhhh, wut? Sorry your internal dealings with them have been sub par apparently, but in general Saris/PT is a pretty good company to work with as a dealer.

A 2016 Nissan Versa starts at $11,990. A specialized Venge ViAS costs $12,900.


Yes these two items are the same price but it's apples and oranges.

The Specialized Vias really should be compared to a $50,000+ car

From my understanding the margins for dealers are complete ass. That's probably a big part of why trentnix is so butthurt.

I don't quite understand your logic with this. No I don't ride circles around sanders because I don't put out 364 watts for a 70.3. I do ride "circles" around from a watts/kg perspective, because I focus on the little things. It all adds up. Why all the hate for marginal gains, even if it is small.

Anyone here get charged twice for their order? I have two separate transactions for $599.99 in my checking account and my shipment confirmation email shows a shipment of 1x$1,199.99, which indicates that I didn't screw up and order two different sets of pedals by mistake.

Guess I get to wait until tomorrow to talk to someone about this.

Yeah, same here. Annoying.

It's still "Pending" on my credit card, but I have one charge from 3 days ago (when I ordered) and a second today when it shipped.

Anyone here get charged twice for their order? I have two separate transactions for $599.99 in my checking account and my shipment confirmation email shows a shipment of 1x$1,199.99, which indicates that I didn't screw up and order two different sets of pedals by mistake.

Guess I get to wait until tomorrow to talk to someone about this.

First person to PM me can have my discount code. I was only interested in the C1 chainrings, but they won't fit my setup.

First person to PM me can have my discount code. I was only interested in the C1 chainrings, but they won't fit my setup.

same, i asked and got 25% too

I just find Powertap to be generally unprofitable products that are being given away to the "cool kids" to create a perception of value that is higher than is justified.

I got what you were saying... like years ago when Rudy Project GAVE away helmets at Kona and I think in the following years sold them at greatly reduced prices. They then ran ads about being the "top helmet at Kona"... after they'd stuffed the box so to speak. So I wonder if Saris will be doing similar... but yeah I got where you were coming from.

As a consumer (with three in college) I'm all for companies selling at greatly discounted prices or giving stuff away at large events like Kona. Congrats to those that got product at 50% off.

I was told by Saris that it does not apply to wheelsets or disks. Did you order a wheelset and have the code work?