It was my first ironman but I thought I was a couple minutes slower than what I could have done- partly because of fighting through the traffic from earlier waves but probably mostly due to the massive headwind/sidewind coming back and the ocean-like swells at the turnaround.

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Looking at the pro swim splits, the swim swam out long, looks like about 300/400 meters or so.

Monty, the pro swim was no wetsuit (and fresh water), but age groupers had wetsuit. Still seems a bit long.

I've had more stressful swims (mostly I'm just a better swimmer), but the significant waves definitely changed both the nature of my swim technique, and the dynamics of the MOP from my perspective. The furthest section of the course, where swimmers swim parallel to the shore before heading back to the exit, was a freakin zoo. A real mess that created a lot of chaos. (Presumably) average swimmers were reacting to the swells is suboptimal ways. I used far more strength and muscles than should be used in a normal swim.

All Ironmans have their challenges, and IMMT did not disappoint. I was 5 minutes off in the water. But I'm very MOP. Hardly compares to the infamous IM STG 140.6, but tough nonetheless.

It seemed a little long. The swells were nuts. Kind of fun though.

Monty, the pro swim was no wetsuit (and fresh water), but age groupers had wetsuit. Still seems a bit long. //

I assumed all that in my estimate. Swim for top swimming pros in those circumstances should be about 51 or 52..

Started to feel the swells near the end of first section and then obviously really noticed at the far end. Felt like I was swimming in a Great Lake rather than an interior lake. Also seemed very congested at times for us AG's (speaking as someone from a later stage, and most have been really hard for the females).

Sylvan was saying they put the buoys in the same spot every year

An age grouper did swim 49:xx

An age grouper did swim 49:xx

In a wetsuit? What are that persons chops? Lots of AG'ers could be world class swimmers. And they don't swim when the pros do, that is why I like to use pro times for my measure. And I did not say the course was long, I said it swam long, big difference there..

Significant chop on the way back in, probably close to white caps, couldn't tell for sure cause my goggles fogged up

Yes, in a wetsuit. Can't speak to his credentials, but I can say that I find it highly unlikely the age grouper had less challenging conditions than the pro men, given the timing and spacing of the waves. Ridiculously impressive time, for sure

I don't really have a dog in this hunt. I swam 1:00 and expected to swim 56 but that's low on my list of grievances for what turned out to be a disaster of a day for me

This AGer is a swimmer! He finished second in 2014 70.3 Worlds and won Kona the same year in AG 18-24. Pretty good athlete

This was my third time at IMMT and by far my slowest swim. The conditions were definitely a factor at the turn as was having to slalom around earlier swim waves. I really felt bad for the female pros. I would much prefer for the male pros to be given a 15 minute head start, the female pros a 10 minute head start and then the rest of us go off in a rolling start that is self-seeded according to predicted swim time.

Does anyone know how many people did not finish? I can't seem to find that info.

At the brunch today, Mike Reilly said it was around 200 people that did not finish.

I was told by that age grouper's coach on fb that he out swam Javier Gomez at Tremblant 70.3 world's so that gives you more context. He was a better swimmer than the entire pro field.

Monty, I agree with you that the course likely "swam long"

Is that a lot? What is the norm?

They said about 92% completion rate, which seems about normal in my experience.

Not relying on my gps as it read long. I do think the course swam long. It seemed to take a tonne of time on the first turn section across and back into shore relative to the out section. FWIW I came out 5mins slower than expected.

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If he swam with a wetsuit and the pros did not, and it was less than a two minute difference, how was he faster than the pros yesterday? Isn't a wetsuit worth more than a few minutes in an IM swim?

If he swam without a wetsuit, he would have likely done a 52:xx swim right?

What I see in the results is that the lead pack of men pros went 55+. SO giving the dude a very generous 4 minutes(usually close to 3 for pros), he does beat them in this case. Not sure where you got the 2 minute differential. But dude is the real deal it looks like, and perhaps swimming on his own was an advantage over a group that tends to want to stay together. He could have also been going for that swim prime knowing it would be the highlight of his race..

I felt it was long - as I swam 5min slower than last year (and it felt long while I was swimming it, i.e. Before I had chance to see the clock) despite being in slightly better swim shape. That being said, I'm just an average AG swimmer and my year over year personal comparison doesn't mean much.

The real telling stat is comparing pros who swam in both 2015 and 2016 and seeing the delta (yes there needs to be some adjustment for 2015 being wetsuit, though I'm not sure what time adjustment is worth):

1/ Mary Beth Ellis: 0:50:22 in 2015, 1:00:59 in 2016
2/ Jordan Rapp: 0:51:33 in 2015, 58:59 in 2016

I can't believe that 10:30 and 7:30 differentials are entirely attributable to wetsuit + some chop

Cheers,
Erik

Did you at least get any good stories out of it?

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tweets.

My first IM and I am not a fish, but it was a bit rough and I overshot my expected time by 10 mins.
However, I took it very easy on the swim and came out of the water feeling very fresh, so I made up for it later on.

Was definitely rough from the turn and coming back...

Why did the pros not have wetsuits while the AG allowed wetsuits?

Differing temperature cutoffs for the two groups. IIRC 76.1*F for AG and 72*F for pros. It was darn close to being too warm for age groupers.

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Limit for water temperature is different for pros 71.6 and age groups 76. It was 72.2 yesterday.

Fyi The course is not long, markers are in the exact Sam spot every year . It swam long with the swell on the lake on Sunday ...

Fyi The course is not long, markers are in the exact Sam spot every year . It swam long with the swell on the lake on Sunday … //


What about lake level, did it go up in the past year? I'm glad the turn buoys are hard wired to the floor of the lake, that is the most one can do to insure consistency. I just find it hard to believe that conditions like there were there would account for about a 5+ minute differential. Not to say some conditions wouldn't do that, just those conditions.


I know a lot of lakes around here of course that would swim out waaaaay different, even with anchored buoys because of lake depth.

Sounds reasonable but are you sure I said that? I've never been to an IM race in Tremblant. I'm not an expert on swim courses either - I honestly have no idea how they measure and mark a swim.

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Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas

Ah, that's Marc posting as sportstats! He posts as sportstats, I post as me.

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Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas

Does Kona have permanent anchor points for the turn buoys? Is that common for the bigger races? I've always just assumed someone goes out with a handheld GPS to mark a point they've calculated in Google Earth.

Yeah, that 49 looks like a short swim or a mistake in the results until you realize it's P-M Doyon and he was probably in a wetsuit and the pro's weren't. http://pierremarcdoyon.com/

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Sylvan Smyth | http://www.sportstats.asia | sylvan@sportstats.asia | Starvas

it was choppy and had some swells. i expected 1:10, swam a 1:20.

Sort of.

1) A friend of mine was wearing his Pearl Izumi Octane under his wetsuit with the arms rolled down under his arm pits, so he could keep flexibility in his shoulders. When he came out of the swim, he went to the wetsuit strippers, and with at least one hundred spectators watching, the stripper accidentally pulled both the wetsuit off and the tri kit off together, so he was standing there in front of the crowd ass naked and had to fish his race kit out of the wetsuit and try to struggle into it with his manhood in full view. Unfortunately none of the Finisher Pix caught him in the flesh, but still, pretty awesome triathlon story.

2) Got a penalty for sling shotting. I know it's way dangerous to do that, but I am a madman and didn't know it was illegal (I was for sure doing it, but this is the first I've heard that you have to pass outside the draft box). I'm too lazy to actually look through the IM rules about that, but I took the referees word for it. On a more serious note, the referee and general moto coverage was outstanding, and I was grateful for that. It was rare that I went 5 minutes without seeing a moto, and I saw very little egregious drafting at the front of the race, which is atypical for such strong competition.

3) One of the volunteers dropped my bike on its drive side some time between when I gave it off to them in T2 and when I picked it up after the race. The rear derailleur and base bar are so nicked up that the imperfections are causing me night tremors, and I am thinking about selling my bike entirely. Or at least replacing the rear derailleur and base bar. /pink?

4) I finally caught up to this guy I was chasing on the bike roughly 10k into the marathon. Right when I was about to make the pass, we hit an aid station and he had to run into the porta-potty. But before he did, he turned around to me and screamed 'I WILL SEE YOU LATER!' Guy seemed so angry about losing a place that the veins in his head looked like they were bulging out at me -- like incredible Hulk, d bag triathlete edition. Intense much?

Got it! Noted.

oes Kona have permanent anchor points for the turn buoys? //

Yes, as I recall it is a 2000lb block of concrete with some hooks in it. That is why Hawaii is so consistent, no beach to move on you, or the turnaround. And there are never any waves(at least not this time of year) just some currents, ocean swell, and wind that change things up. Going back to when i first raced there in the very 1st race, the times have never been more than +/- 3 minutes or so.And most years it is less than a minute variable..

Same here, 5 minutes slower compared to my last year's time (1:13 vs 1:08). I am also roughly at the same fitness level swim-wise, if not better, so was a bit disappointed, but considering that I beat my last year's bike by over 40 minutes I'll take that :)

That Guy is Pierre-Marc Doyon who happens to be one of the best Ironman AG swimmers out there.

Absolute monster in the water so no surprise. If you look at a couple of pictures from the swim exit you can see him standing alone with no one else in sight.

Hey Monty, replying again as PM is a good friend, He not only beat all the pros in the water, he was also the fastest AG overall and 7th overall so he was not only gunning for the swim but the entire race ;).

The guys is the real deal

I was 1:18, about 6 minutes slower than I expected, but pretty sure doggy paddling between the two turn buoys didn't help. I had a lot of trouble with the waves hitting us from the right.

Which leads me to:
What did you guys do technique-wise to handle that? When I made the first turn, the waves started hitting me in the face and then I'd feel like I was sinking under, head too, after the wave passed. Got hit in the face by a few waves, got a bit panicked. Tried breathing to my left, but still felt like the waves were pushing me under. Then I started the doggy paddle and struggled to keep my head up until the second turn buoy....was also the only time I've ever considered waving for assistance (I didn't...).. Was not in my happy place.
First time I've ever really felt that way, not sure how to handle it to properly swim through it in the future..

Hey Monty, replying again as PM is a good friend, He not only beat all the pros in the water, he was also the fastest AG overall and 7th overall so he was not only gunning for the swim but the entire race ;).

Well since he had a wetsuit I would hope he would beat the pros. SOunds like he is the caliber of the top swimming triathletes like Potts, Varga, Frodo etc. So it would make sense he beat them by 5 minutes in the swim, guessing had they all started together and same format, he would have just pulled them to a same time on the lead group. But good to hear he is an all rounder, how old is he anyway? Young enough to still go pro maybe, or content to be a top hobbyist in the sport? We need more guys in that top echelon of non draft swimming, makes the early bike rides a lot more exciting.

I had a surprisingly good swim, better than I had expected. I swam the stretch out on the inside of the buoys where there was plenty of open water. Then moved to the outside on the far end, and on the way back. The chop on the far end was fun. I could feel it develop as I was swimming out and then it got bigger when at the first turn. I thought it was a sign of bad weather brewing and for a few minutes I thought maybe this would build up and get a St George 2012 type adventure on the way back but it was nowhere near that and the chop really didn't last long. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing - as a (previously) 'poor' swimmer who survived the SG2012 swim (barely) I was excited to see the chop build knowing that I'm a very different swimmer now. Seemed like a missed opportunity, sorta.

From Memory he's either 25 or 26 and he won 18-24 in kona 2 years ago.

I don't know if he's going for his pro card but he definitely has the work ethics to do so.

Cheers

I breathe to the right and struggled with that section as well. I tried to breath backwards and to the right, just to shield my mouth from the waves. I also sighted less frequently, and think I swam a really shitty line as a result. Not sure if this is the best way to handle it, but it's what I did

Seemed like a fair swim, expected to be around 1:12 and finished 1:18, but I attributed it to more MOP swimmers bumping for a longer period, hard to get into a rhythm, and then the chop by the turn-around buoy.

I want to give props to the guy backstroking at the same speed I was doing the free (for a little bit) because his goggles got knocked off.

Unless the buoys are anchored with three ropes they will move with the wind, right? The wind was definitely blowing out from shore but I don't know how far this would move the buoys, I guess it depends how much slack is in the rope.

I was very disappointed in my swim time, I am glad to see it wasn't just me.

Well that would depend on the slack in the rope and the distance to the bottom -- Pythagorean theorem, and all that -- but the lake seemed pretty shallow to me, so I doubt that had much to do with it

Yup. The pro cut off is based on needing a wetsuit for warmth. The AG cutoff is based more on the point where you can become overheated wearing one and there's no need at all for warmth/comfort. Personally, I think 72 is a bit cool, but around 74F would be a good cut. it would for AG athletes to learn to swim better, but might also reduce participants at certain events.

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Similar results here, I expected 1:20 or better and ended up 1:31. Brutal swim for slow swimmers like me.