What age group are you in for a 25 to be competitive?

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Hey, oh yeah, I'm 55. By "competitive," I would like to be in the top 25 in my AG. If all breaks well, I could get under 2:20 for the total. Thanks

I'm 56 . . . maybe your bike and run are fabulous, but I wouldn't consider a 25 swim to be very competitive.

In any event to answer your question, I would be about 60 - 90 seconds slower given the same open water 1500m course without the wet suit.

Good luck and go get 'em!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

I still have the jury out on me. I feel faster and I THINK I am faster without a wetsuit but not sure how I can prove it one way or another. If it's wetsuit legal I use one, if not then I don't and I am happier. I am obviously more buoyant but I seem to wear out faster and get tired. I know that doesn't really help but if somebody put a gun to my head and made me pick I would say I am faster without.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Wow, I guess all my race results are ...

I have been a 25 swim person forever, and I think my race results show one can be very competitive. Does not matter how fast you are on the swim, it is just
who is the fastest to the finish line.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

The studly swimmers are going to love this. Swim time is one thing. But the extra energy used will also impact ones race. Yep, 3 minutes added w/o a wetsuit
for non fish seems about what happens to me.

55-59 AG is still very competitive, but usually a dig difference between 55 and 59. I am 59 so I see it first hand in races.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Do most folks swim slower without wetsuits?

With near certainty I can say that all folks swim slower without wetsuits.

Use a swimskin.

No question you have to swim and bike, but his original post seemed to link "competitive" to the "swim". That, and, competitive swims are still around 20 (with wetsuit) - at least what I call competitive; and, you have to have a really good bike and run (some including you do) to make up that difference (which is what I said). Not knocking the OP at all . . . in fact I certainly want him to do well and take a shot at his top 25% goal!

To the OP do you have a good swim skin? Although there are doubters I feel they really help in non-wetsuit swims.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Wow, what races do you do? Over the years I see very very few folks that swim a 20, even with a wetsuit. And, if you now add his age, where do you race?

I raced at Donner against a 61 year old who was second in the nation in rankings last year. He swam a 23, I swam a 26. 23 is fast in the race I do.
He killed me on the bike. So out of T2 he had a 9 minute lead. He was pissed when I caught him at mile 5. :)

So my experience is if a person can swim a 24 with a wetsuit, they are competitive against everyone except the college/ex college swimmers who go 20/21

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I will likely be one of the fastest swimmers in my AG.

Here are some guesstimates:
1) Wetsuit swim - 18:45
2) Swim skin- 19:45
3) Shaved back, chest and legs- 20:00
4) Hirsuit- 20:15

Are you a college/ex college swimer?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes

I did a bunch of wet suit testing years ago, ti's on my blog somewhere. IIRC it was ~ :06 or :08 per 100yd slower without the wetsuit.

BUT

That's not the problem for most triathletes. Most triathletes will use their legs way more in the non wet suit swim than they think they will.

Combined this with the average triathlete's distaste for swimming and you've got the perfect storm for slower race times.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I must always show up at races with Dirty Mangos ;-)!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

There is an important little detail in here.

The wetsuit provides buoyancy.
A similar amount of buoyancy could be achieved by hard kicking and using the arms to generate lift. (Which is energetically very demanding).

What this means is that the biggest advantage of the wetsuit is not so much time, but energy.

And as such, the better ones swim fitness the lesser the advantage of the wetsuit.

All we need in life is an unfair advantage.
I gratefully accept the 2-3 minutes head start that my swimming background gives me.

That said a collegiate running background (or similar level of talent) but have been better.

Really good stuff, folks. First time I've posted.

I should have clarified in my original post that by "competitive" I meant *total* time. If the majority of triathletes will swim slower without a wetsuit, that answers my question -- that the times will be slower for most everyone except those with a solid swimming background.

FYIish, for the 55-59 group in the AG nationals in the Oly last year, there were plenty of guys in the top 20 overall who swam 25:00-plus. To be in the top 20 (males), you need to be sub-2:21 overall. It'll be tough for me to hit 2:20 if I have 27- to 29-minute swim, but if the majority of the field has slower swim times, it should equal out.

Also, it seems that swimskins are USTA legal: Can you do the whole race in a swimskin? Does it matter much which brand or model? Sounds like a great idea.

I appreciate all the responses.

Your time would be slower during the 2009 USAT AG national championships in the Black Warrior River as well, where they had some miscommunications with the upstream damn workers. The top-16 swimmers were the only ones under 25 that day; with the top swim being 22:29. It was brutal for us non-swimmers.

No, you peel the swim skin off like a wetsuit, but it takes 2 seconds. I personally like the PZ4TX see: http://www.blueseventy.com/products/pz4tx

Good luck!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

"No, you peel the swim skin off like a wetsuit, but it takes 2 seconds."
--Sold! Thanks so much ...

You just wear your kit underneath like a wetsuit . . . very hydrodynamic. I have become a decent swimmer but I actually prefer a swimskin race over wetsuit. It will also cut that 3 minute difference down a bit.

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Expensive, but for the effort and cost to get to Nationals, if I were going, I sure would order one.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think most people swim slower sans wetsuit. The weaker swimmers tend to suffer the most though as often their body position is quite poor and they no longer have the buoyancy of their wetsuit. I prefer non-wetsuit swims.

Ditto to above. Being a strong swimmer, always prefer a non-wetsuit swim. And, yes, if you want to save seconds, get a swimskin.

[quote h2ofun
I raced at Donner against a 61 year old who was second in the nation in rankings last year. He swam a 23, I swam a 26. 23 is fast in the race I do.
He killed me on the bike. So out of T2 he had a 9 minute lead. He was pissed when I caught him at mile 5. :). /quote]

Did he stop at the porta-John and take a 8 minute crap?

Nope, I beat him by 12 minutes on the run. He cannot run. Most older folks cannot run.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

A sprint I did this year which is normally wetsuit legal, wasn't this year and I've never heard so many people moaning and complaining, a few even decided not to race. It was pretty pathetic and this is in Australia where the standard of swimming is supposed to be pretty good.

I just checked results online for IMC, Muskoka 70.3, Calgary 70.3, no one who won the swim won the race, and as far as swimmers in your age group who could swim at a 25 min 1500m pace, there were 3 or four at best. This would be Canada, so wetsuits would be pretty well guaranteed.

Whatever you lose in not wearing a wetsuit, so will the rest of the AG. It is all relative.
Of course for the none kickers (like me) you might want to brush up your kick.
Don't sweat it, you lose nothing.

I expect tons of excuses at the end of the race. I think that swim will shell a bunch of buoy butts that really need a wetsuit.

And in other breaking news, water is wet.

Looks like water temp is now pushing 85... that's going to be a hot one!

So almost guaranteed this will be a non wetsuit race and you never know "what will be comepetitive" since that depends on who shows up. Swim your best, wear a swim skin if you have one... good luck!

Great discussion, folks, I had no idea I would get two pages of responses -- it's my first time on Slowtwitch.

Hope you guys know what you're talking about. I just dropped 300 clams on a swimskin despite not knowing what one was until yesterday :-)