elevate yourself to the zen of Sean Kelly

Is he on tv?

Yup... 100%

Eurosport.

America's only 2x world champion is also featured on Eurosport

thanks

Now if only Liggett knew how to actually read a bike race. You'd think after this many years...

Me

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Liggett can't hold a candle to the late David Duffield's meandering prose.... Usually he'd be talking about a nice cheese he had in a particular area of France just when the key move of the race is happening.

The Duffers was awesome....

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

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I'm convinced he and Sherwen are dead and they re-use spliced commentary.
Seriously, their expressions are so clichéd and over-used.

I don't mind the cliched prose so much, it's just Liggett's constant confusion. I enjoyed how after Cav's first sprint win (by half a bike length), Liggett was confused who won and said we'd have to go to the tape. And constantly confusing riders.

Was this supposed to be in pink? Liggett's soothing commentary? My goodness. Like nails on a chalkboard!

Give Eurosport a try.

Precisely!

Not to mention Liggett's calls are wrong more often than not.

X3. I will miss them (Liggett & Sherwen) when they are gone.

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DFL > DNF > DNS

Phil Liggett is like Phil Rizzuto; he's way past his prime, he's messing up a lot of calls, forgetting names, but when he breaks out one of his classic phrases it's gold.

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

His commentary is familiar in the way that a drunk uncle's rants about the gov'ment is sort of institutional banter you know and tolerate. Thanksgiving isn't the same without that uncle, but in truth you could do without him. Liggett is, for lack of better options, the voice of cycling for a generation. He did commentary when Greg Lemond was racing, for crying out loud.

The commentary of Sean Kelly is so much better, but you need to get a feed of Eurosport for it. The guy reads the race and knows the riders much better. He also calls the bullshit when he sees it.

I remember when he first started and he was practically catatonic. He's gotten really good, he clearly knows the riders in and out, knows what's going on in the race, etc.

Phil's problems start with not being able to recognize a significant percentage of the riders, let alone knowing them. This causes or is compounded by him not being able to recognize what he's looking at (the break, the back of the peloton, etc.) Then there is Phil and Paul always trying to make it seem so dramatic, even when it's not, e.g. the bunch rolling in on today's stage.

Phil has clearly lost his fastball, but his voice and catchphrases remain iconic enough for those of us who started watching pro cycling in the 80s & 90s that he's still the voice in my head when I'm imagining the phantom commentary out on my own rides. That sort of mythic seasoning will continue to endure, having survived the taint of Lance's ignominious stank, and even as his actual performance continues succumbing to the frailty of age.

Sherwen, on the other hand, has no such redeeming cachet, and I wish he would get crushed by a falling anvil, Wile E. Coyote-style. Fuck that dope. He pretty much encapsulates everything that's wrong with Phil as well, but in an even more cloying manner and without any of the offsetting positive legacy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI7T2iuGjjc

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"I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 10, and I don't know why!"

That is absolutely brilliant!!

100% agree.

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Jens is pretty good at that, but even then he's been fallible on a couple o' stages already

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I mean, look at the damage being done on this thread... you guys are literally turning yourselves inside out!

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Paul Lantinga
Sable WaterOptics from See Worthy
paul@sablewateroptics.com

I just snorted my coffee over my desk. thanks for that....NOT

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TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"

I just enjoy how Jens and Christian gently correct him every time they are on air with him.

Phil is past his time and needs to retire. The confusion is mind-boggling and he is one of the last standing ties to the Armstrong era. I love Jens but he and CVV don't make great commentators.

Eurosport with the duo of Carlton Kirby and Sean Kelly can't be beat. Went to watching them a couple years ago and never looked back. I wish they didn't have Greg Lemond standing in, but otherwise, it's really, really good.

I wish they'd let Jensie do more than colour commentary. He's got way better insight.

That said, my wife loves Ligget and gets annoyed with the races he doesn't announce

I too have Phil's voice in my head when I ride. I've followed cycling since the 90s but these days his voice is white noise. Sean Kelly has great insight and often calls the race by watching who's hanging at the back of the peloton.
I'm based in Finland and the commentary is beyond boring. Imagine the monotonous voice of an aging Kimi Raikkonen with long silences constantly mentioning Finnish riders who have taken part in the tour.
I watch with the sound off.

^^ this

phil liggett and paul sherwen were excellent in their day but now past it

Their replacements on the ITV (in the UK) are indifferent: Ned Boulting is shockingly poor as the main commentator but David Millar is good.

Carlton Kirby and Sean Kelly are great on Eurosport: Kirby does talk complete bo**ocks at times but his delivery is wonderful!

We don't get Liggett and Sherwin commentating on any of the coverage here in the UK any more and I don't miss them at all. The last couple of seasons I saw with them they were so frustrating to listen to, Liggett in particular just didn't have a clue what was going on.

I think Carlton Kirby commentates pretty much every single race of the season now for Eurosport, from the Tour Down Under in Jan right through to the World Champs in Oct, so it's not surprising he's a bit laissez-faire about some of the less exciting stages! I appreciate that over trying to ham it up and make it seem more exciting than it really is.

Greg Lemond is a bit sketchy at the moment but as someone else mentioned, Sean Kelly was the same when he started and now he's ace. You've got to give these guys a chance to find their feet because it must be a tough and unforgiving job!

NordicSkier wrote:

Now if only Liggett knew how to actually read a bike race. You'd think after this many years...

This.

I used to think he was good, but know better now. He commentates on the race he thinks he's about to see rather than the race that is actually happening.

Also, Liggett was a big Armstrong supporter/doping denier for years. He like to imply he's a journalist but he's a shill
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/despite-usadas-evidence-liggett-remains-armstrongs-supporter/

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Classic!

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

I use to be a cynic and think Phil had to know the score. I mean how could you be in his position and not know, but over time I've come to think he may just have been stupid enough to have believed the BS.

so soothing to watch, especially the high aerial shots

Sean's great. "ee's really suffrin' now" about somebody at some point in every stage

I really enjoy the commentary from Liggett. It is obvious that he gets confused with names sometimes, but I don't understand why people feel he needs to "call a bike race". If you are watching it, you know about the sport, and understand what is going on yourself, you don't need him to call the race. His voice is very calming to me and makes watching the long stages easier. I hope he continues until his last breathe.

Plus, my better half and I have made an excellent drinking game out of them. Drink every time you here the word damage. You might want to start with beer and be sure to play at home. It goes fast.

Phil is so way off that it is comical. However, his voice is familiar and relaxing and easy to have in in the background.

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Paul Lantinga
Sable WaterOptics from See Worthy
paul@sablewateroptics.com

Haha, we play a similar game, but you drink when he gets a riders name wrong.

golf clap


I believe you are speaking of David Harmon, who once said (when he wasn't aware he's on air), that's bollocks! (this was at the finish of the 2009 UCI Men's RR Championship in Mendrisio)

Kirby certainly talks a lot of nonsense, but it's good to have Kelly tune him down. Also great are Magnus Backstedt, who does some of the "lesser" races for Eurosport. His commentating partner is also quite good; better than Kirby i'd say.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/...france/245849-245849

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

Phil and Paul are pleasant to listen to, unless you really understand actual bike racing tactics and strategy, then they often sound like they are just reading stock lines that have little or no relevance to what is actually happening on the road.

But, I will concede that whatever they are actually talking about at key moments of a race (and as often as not it isn't what is really playing out in front of them) they do make it sound interesting and exciting and they are pretty good at filling the calm times with idle patter.

"Look at this! Jason80134 has cracked and is losing time quickly now as slowman has opened a large gap with only 2km to go to the top of Alpe d'Huez!"

Don't worry. I saw him digging into his suitcase of courage. He'll be fine...

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3SIXTY5cycling.com

Robbie McEwen and Michael Tomalaris are GOLDEN. McEwen is still prickly as ever. The shift from those two to Phil and Paul at the 50k mark is a little painful.

I love both of those guys - I have an autographed poster of them in my bike cave. But, DAMN - they both need to retire. Now! Phil has reached a point where one in every four declarative sentences he utters is factually wrong and he regularly comes out with total gibberish. Not the kind of "it's nonsense but you know what I mean" that we all utter on occasion, but stroke victim type strings of random words. Sherwin develops a "word or phrase of the day" and uses it over and over and over. If you fast forward, you can sometimes restart on him saying the exact same thing he said five minutes ago. I'd like to see Bob Roll doing more straight announcing. He could ease off some the semi-buffoon role and move into full time serious broadcaster with no problem. When he is explaining things he is a joy to listen to.

Those clowns are a disgrace to cycling...

The swedish commentator on Eurosport (Vacchi) on the other hand, there's a guy that knows racing, riders and 'pivotal moments'.
He'll see a 5sec aerial shot of a bunch of 30-40 riders and go: "where's Nibali?"
And he routinely 'overrides' the official rider name that shows up on the screen: "that's not Nieve, that's Thomas"
But most importantly, he'll thoroughly ridicule the atrocity that is Voeckler...

I have never heard the clowns utter anything of insight or value.

Good point.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Plus, like Liggett, he had his head in the sand about doping for years - or lied about not knowing.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

That sums it up nicely. I'd just add the NBC coverage as a whole treats the audience as if they are newbies who don't know anything about cycling. Really, how many times do they need to explain an echelon? There's no respect for the audience. Eurosport doesn't do that in the least. They assume if you are watching you know about bike racing. I've noticed the same thing with female commentators in women's soccer. They are always explaining the game for some reason.

Not to mention 'cross, tail wind'. There are either headwinds, quartering winds, crosswinds, or tailwinds! That said, not standing up for NBC Sports commentating crew, but I suspect they are making due seeing as compared to the other media outlets, NBC paid bottom dollar to the ASO to hitch hike on the video feeds provided by French television. ITV and Eurosport commentators are watching multiple video streams from the camera motos and helicopters out on the course making it easier to discern race action. Over at NBC, Phil, Paul, Bobke, Vandevelde, et al, are making due with only one or two feeds and must discern more granular details by actively monitoring the race radio chatter from race officials as well as tidbits fed to them from Steve Porino out on the road.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Meh. He's familiar but not great. That said, compared to listening to Steve Mcmanaman commentate the Euros, Phil is refreshing.

I could be wrong, but I think everyone gets the same video feed which is produced by French TV. http://cyclingtips.com/...oadcast-to-the-world

The mistakes, miss info and missed key events I have seen from Phil and Paul over the last few days were obvious to me at the time from the pictures on my TV so even if they do have a limited feed, that does not excuse them!

Thanks, I stand corrected. How nice it would have been to have a commentating 'super team' comprised of the late David Duffield, Sean Kelly, Davide Cassani, and Bob Roll?

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Thanks, Warbird. That video is hilarious. "look at those legs..."

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Paul Lantinga
Sable WaterOptics from See Worthy
paul@sablewateroptics.com

Cosmo Catalano (Cyclocosm) is the best for in-depth analysis and recaps. Would love to see him report live.

It's mostly a feel good broadcast that stays away from controversy. After all these years they target the non-cycling fan rather than appealing the cycling fan who watches the race and wants a higher level of commentary. Sean Kelly does a better job, as do the foreign language broadcasts in Italian, French..where they treat the event as true sporting competition, and not just entertainment for the masses. I can't comment on the Dutch and Flemish broadcasts as I do not understand those languages.
The US does not have enough older gray haired ex-pros to provide the type of commentary that would make it more interesting.

This^^^^
Phil doesn't know the riders, doesn't know the situations, and he is always making incorrect calls.
He is nothing but a talking head his a pleasant speaking voice.

If someone made a drinking game where you had to take a drink every time Phil said something wrong, there would be some seriously drunk watchers.

Phil and Paul must go - Bicycling

As is often the case, Joe Lindsey is spot-on.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

That's part of why the duo so good, especially in some of the smaller races when nothing much is happening. It's a shame that we don't get the TDF on eurosport in Australia due to a free to air TV station having the rights, we get Phil and Paul.

However.......

I don't know who NBC Sports is trying to reach with their TdF coverage. Certainly, there are "cyclists" who tune in, but it might be a case of trying to get the "Olympics audience", which is certainly bigger than the number of cyclists. How many people watch figure skating but don't know the difference between a double axle and a triple toe loop? (That would be me.) But lots of people tune in to Olympic figure skating.

My wife (not a cyclist) watches the NBC Sports coverage of the TdF with me. It's exactly the right content for her. And while Phil and Paul make mistakes, I still like listening to them. Sort of like a comfortable pair of old blue jeans.

Phil and Paul aren't Vin Scully, but they're OK.

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

But if it weren't for you, your wife likely wouldn't be watching the Tour. Focusing on a secondary demographic is rarely a good strategy.

The numbers show time and time again that it is primarily cyclists who tune in to the coverage. You don't cover an entire stage of the Tour for "Olympic" fans, you do it for the dedicated fan.

But even assuming you ar correct, you can still have knowledgable and competent announcers in the booth and serve both audiences. P& P ar no longer those announcers...well past their expiration date.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Wait, Sam Posey did bike racing commentary? That I would want.

Oh, God....he was horrible. You can hear parts of his commentary here.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rWyfb3H7LEg

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

You're correct, my wife (probably) wouldn't watch if it weren't for me, but she does enjoy Phil and Paul. Their banter and level of expertise are just right for her. It does bring one more pair of eyeballs to their program. (And who else is going to buy a Gotham Steel fry pan!)

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"Human existence is based upon two pillars: Compassion and knowledge. Compassion without knowledge is ineffective; Knowledge without compassion is inhuman." Victor Weisskopf.

It's quite possible to have the same sort of banter and not actually be wrong so often on the facts of the commentary. Just sayin'

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http://www.jt10000.com/

I'm in complete agreement, their commentary makes the sport very accessible and in the U.S. that's pretty important. I can have the tour on and within 5 minutes of watching my family and friends who don't know anything of the sport have a pretty good idea of what is going on.

In all honesty, I've never noticed any glaring issues with the factuality of their commentary. Aside from calling people the wrong names, which I think is going to happen from time to time in a field of 180 riders, especially with the majority of the camera shots coming from helicopter, what specific moments have ruined the commentary for you guys?

Ruined is a strong word, but it's death by a thousand cuts.

I try to not watch them at all, but the last time I did it was 3-minute highlights of the stage of the Tour de France that Jarlinson Pantano won. Inside the last 500 meters Liggett calls the race "That would have been a great result for Pantano" as if the other guy had just won. Seconds later Pantano comes around the other guy and wins the stage. Statement, then the opposite happens. That is typical.

No single instance ruins it for me, but it's a sign he sucks. We wouldn't put up with that in other sports (saying "the ball is in the hole" when it's not clear it will be) so why should it be OK in cycling. He's terrible.

Note, I'm not grousing on him *just* for being wrong so much, but for being unable to control himself and wait till he understands what he is seeing. It's Dunning-Kruger style cluelessness.

Oh, plus being a Lance Armstrong apologist/supporter/toadie for too long.

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http://www.jt10000.com/

Are you saying that the folks at NBCSports aren't smart enough to look at the numbers?

Ligget was the reason I started watching TDF in the 90's he was brilliant and still going well but I have to agree as hes got older hes losing the plot a bit here and there. YOu have to give him a bit of leg room here and there he is getting on but he is a legend of the sport.

D'Wife: "Oh no! You're not watching this shit again! I hate that guy's voice; so fucking annoying"

I've been DVRing the stages in the afternoon then skipping through when I get home

They have the studio team of Todd, Bob, and CVV do the commentary/ply-by-play for the first part, then Phil & Paul bring it home [with some comments here & there by Jensie]

They could very easily have the studio team do the whole thing; plus they're much more fun to listen to

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

No, I am saying the producers at NBC Sports don't know how to produce cycling coverage properly and are lazy. "Well, we've always used P & P. And 20 years ago, Bob Roll wrote a funny book, so cyclists seem to think he is funny. And cyclists LOVE Jens....we can have say 'shut up legs' and they will eat it up."

Seriously, the whole production reeks of laziness.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

You left out: "Can we get a girl to to finish line interviews?"

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

"I don't get to hear the commentators that I want to hear these producers suck, the whole thing sucks."

Great insight.

Right back atcha.....

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

So I just read the lulzworthy article that Bicycling wrote which basically stated that cycling coverage in the U.S. is doomed because it doesn't use enough fancy graphics, and Phil and Paul don't tell stories as well as Vin Scully, LOL. I just don't get it.

If you REALLY dislike the fact that these guys mixup names and sometimes get a little ahead of themselves when calling the race, fine I'll give you that. But let's not condemn them to ruining U.S. cycling broadcasts as a whole. Any problems with audience numbers, accessibility, etc have to do with tons of other factors, lease of which is the "imperfect" commentary that these two bring to the table.

That being said, I would be a fan of the Jensie CVV show.

I like Phil and Paul. They're the voice of the TdF for me. HOWEVER, they were absolutely horrible on Stage 18 (ITT). They were wrong more than they were right. I kind of think they may have been drinking in the booth...

What's Dizzy Dave Zabriskie doing these days?



Nevermind, they probably have a no-dopers-in-the-booth policy

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

I don't care how good he is, I just love Sam Posey. Plus 1989 was his first year and first bike race, so I would assume he got better.

Thought I had read not to long ago that he was partnering with Floyd Landis to open a canibas business next town over from Lance.

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I turn the sound off when the 3 stooges are on , Liggett, Sherwin and Roll.

They're commentating on a sport that is mainly a boring procession and when it isn't boring they wet themselves and fuck up.

Been watching La Vuelta on Universal with just Paul and Bob ... there's some dead air [where Phil would be babbling] but otherwise rather enjoyable

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin