The $299 Powertap GS hub-based power meter sale is making me mull a wheel upgrade, but as a relative newbie I'm struggling to assess my options.

I have a 2013 Roubaix Sport Compact set up with Redshift dual-position seatpost and quick-release aerobars, fit nicely dialed in over several sessions with a good local fitter. The OEM wheels are the not-so-highly regarded Axis 1.0, a combination of a lower-end DT Swiss rim with a generic hub.

I'm at no risk of podiuming in the tris (so far two Olympics and a 70.3) I've done since I start this sport just over a year ago, so I care more about overall ride quality than raw speed. The biggest thing I'd like from new wheels is lively handling, which probably means a lighter wheel but perhaps a little less aero one. I ride along the Pacific with a ton of crosswinds, so something like a 30 is probably more appropriate than a 60 or 90. My impression is wider rims are pure upside from both a comfort and performance perspective, so that's definitely on the list, would be nice to run 23 or 25mm tires without them mushrooming out. Roads can be a bit rough around here, I've been riding GP4000s 23mm on the front and 25mm on the back, pretty happy with those but on my narrow rims get some serious mushroom profile going on. I doubt I'll upgrade to a full tri bike in the foreseeable future. I want one set of wheels for training and sporadic racing.

I've read a lot on here and elsewhere. I see that Flo 30s are popular, but a bit on the heavier side, maybe a bit harsher ride dynamics? What should be on my radar? Advice appreciated!

Just FYI, the FLO 30s come in 20, 24, 28, 32 drilling configurations which can easily be built for riders on the "heavier side". Our 28 hole Clydesdale build will work for riders up to 242lbs. If you are over that weight, then I would recommend working with a builder who can help build a wheel that will suit you well.

If you have any additional questions, just let me know.

Chris

Thanks! I meant that your Flo 30s were a little on the heavier side. I'm 160 lbs, so my own weight shouldn't constrain my wheel choices.

Oh... ok, I misread that. Best of luck in your search for a new wheel.

Thanks, I tweaked it slightly to make sure it was clear.

For what it's worth, your Flo 30s are still in the running, seem to be popular and very reasonably priced. I'm trying to get a sense of what the reasonably priced alternatives would be, especially since, given my priorities, weight seems like an important criterion (to support acceleration, nimble handling, climbing, etc.), since overall handling is more important than raw speed to me (of course, if it were just about raw speed I'd be looking at deeper rims, and I wouldn't be riding a Roubaix with aerobars, either).

Remember that during accelerations, aerodynamics are about 49 times more important than weight... and the FLO 30 definitely has some aero credibility. Tom A. wrote an article on that here on ST. It might surprise you. His study was done on a 400g difference in mass.

Here's a link to the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...nd_Inertia_2106.html

Thanks! I meant that your Flo 30s were a little on the heavier side. I'm 160 lbs, so my own weight shouldn't constrain my wheel choices.

I would suggest Sapim CX-Ray bladed spokes and don't buy them from your local shop.

Yes.

I have seen a shop charge someone $5 per spoke plus $100 per wheel for building them.

The full retail price on CX-Ray spokes is $3.50 and they can be purchased for a lot less.

You really should reconsider the FLO 30. Based on what you are looking for (light wheel, good in crosswinds, wider rim, able to handle 25mm Gp's) the Flo is damn near perfect. I have been using a set for training and couldn't be happier with them. For the price, you will not find a better new wheel. Their customer service is also great. Bonus: you get to pick the color of the stickers and can swap them out easier to match your bike(s)! As far as racing goes, you could simply put an aerojacket on the rear 30.

Or consider the new Flo 45 CC's. The specs look amazing.

For a budget wheel build of the Flo 30s, how strong do you think the argument is for the Sapim CX-Ray spokes? My impression is generic spokes are maybe $1/spoke, i.e. $44 for both front (20) and back (24), whereas the CX-Rays are more like $3.50, so $154 total. Do you think the CX-Rays are worth an extra $100+?

Also, perhaps a dumb question--assuming I order them myself, is it obvious what length I need to pair a Powertab GS rear and non-power front hub with Flo 30s?

The spoke length on the GS hub is very straightforward.
http://powertap.com/...oke-length-chart.pdf

Bladed CX-Ray spokes are far easier tension, than round spokes, on a straight pull hub.

So apparently the Flo 30 has an ERD of 577.5 (http://flocycling.blogspot.com/...-30-rim-is-here.html).

The chart seems to suggest about 286 mm spokes for the Powertab GS hub, though it also says "add/subtract for nipples and washers" (http://www.powertap.com/...le%20Hub%20Chart.pdf)

As for the front, DT Swiss has an insanely detailed calculator where I have no clue how to fill in half the boxes (https://spokes-calculator.dtswiss.com/en/calculator)

Seriously, it's like cycling companies go out of their way to make this stuff impenetrable to newbies. :(

If I enlarge the budget for something like the Flo 45s (interestingly, they left the weight field blank on the Flo page for the rims, maybe because they're still in development?), then it seems like other options come into play, too. Originally it seemed crazy to spend 1K+ on wheels, and for a not-exactly-aero road bike no less, but these are going to be what I ride a few times a week for the coming years, so I do want to make a choice with which I'll be really happy.

Just buy this (Flo 30's with a Powertap already built in) and save the money since you'll be new to power and don't want to kill your band account.

Just to clarify this is not my posting, just a quick eBay search.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/291813380380

So if I combine a Powertap GS (24 direct pull spoke) hub with a Flo 30, how much does spoke selection matter? Would I generally order spokes myself or leave that in the hands of the local bike shop that I'd get to assemble the wheels for me? I'm assuming a matching (non-power) 20-spoke hub from Powertap in the front.

EDIT: I'd forget carbon rims for your daily riders.

The OP barely races and is on a budget. Carbon clinchers won't save any weight, and do not brake as well as aluminum. Plus if you do long descents with lots of braking, they still have a tendency to self destruct.

I would use 25mm wide tires for compliance over rough roads.

I also believe you are overestimating the effect of crosswinds.

In a lot of my customers decision making process, they just ask themself...

What looks better?

Flo 30s. End of thread.

Most people can't tell the difference between two sets of wheels regarding handling, acceleration, and compliance.

A deeper wheel will accelerate better at speed.

A lighter wheel will accelerate better from a standing start, but how often would you care about that?

My .02

Get a regular box rim of your choice laced to a good hub, like a DT Swiss 240s front, or a dura ace. Get a power tap rear hub.

Every day wheel set that you can stack miles on worry free and you have power meter to boot. You can train and race with power and always add a wheel builder wheel cover to the rear power to wheel to race on in the future.

If you don't care about raw speed, forget the aero wheels then. Get what you really "need" and can use.

Performance bike had a power tap wheel set for like $599 for the pair. Watch for sales.

Unless my math is wrong, you should be able to lace some power tap hubs to the flo 30 for about $1000 for the wheelset.

A solid everyday wheelset that offers training with power. No reason you can't race on them. Even if the OP moves to a Tri bike someday, he would still be able to use these wheels everyday.

More like $850. Alternately, for $1400 or a bit more (which is a big jump) there are aero carbon clincher options. I'm not going to do both now. So the question is what I'm going to enjoy riding on my road bike now, if I get more serious about this triathlon stuff I'd presumably get a proper tri bike down the road.

This thread has definitely been helpful in getting different perspectives.

Chris,

You've watched me debate/agonize on wheels. If I were choosing between your 30s and 45s for my road bike that occasionally does duty for tris, and I didn't care that much about marginal top speed gains, but I did care about acceleration, compliance over rough pavement, handling in feisty crosswinds, and durability, and I was flexible with the budget constraint, which would you pitch?

Both wheels will do all of the above but the FLO 45 will accelerate better, and be more compliant when compared to the FLO 30. The FLO 45 will accelerate better mainly because it is more aerodynamic, and also because it is also lighter. Aerodynamics are about 49 times more important than weight when it comes to sprinting. Tom A. wrote a really good article on this showing all of the math. I get the impression that you are looking for a great do it all wheel that will last you for years to come. I've been riding the FLO 45s on my road bike and I really like the wheelset. I think it would be perfect for your intended use.

Please let me know if you have any additional questions. You can always call if you want too. I'm 702-529-4744.

Take care,

Interesting, given my not caring about marginal improvements in top speed that much, I thought you might have jumped on the 30 bandwagon, too. \


Well yes, but you said you wanted compliance and sprinting speed. A lot of the compliance can be gained by your tire/pressure selection, but the 45 will be faster at sprinting when it comes to aerodynamics. Also know that a some frames will not accept 25mm tires on wider wheels. So if you are forced to use 23s and lose some compliance in your tires, the carbon rim will help make up for that.

If I'm going this route, how would you compare pros and cons of 45-45 to 45-60, say? Why would some choose the former over the latter, other than an aesthetic preference for matching wheels?

The 45/45 and 45/60 will be quite similar. The main difference would be, the 45/60 will be slightly faster, slightly more stable in cross winds, and slightly more compliant. The additional compliance is created by the deeper rim profile which creates a bigger "leaf spring" between the structural section of the rim and the spoke bed. The additional stability is a result of a shift in center of pressure towards the deeper rear wheel.

Aerodynamics are about 49 times more important than weight when it comes to sprinting. Tom A. wrote a really good article on this showing all of the math.

One thing missing is the energy that it takes to move high rotational inertia wheels back and forth in a sprint vs low inertia wheels. I'm pretty sure aero would still win though, within reason. But the lighter wheels will feel more "lively". Probably.

How do you get "49 times"? What delta aero vs delta weight are you looking at?

I just built a wheel using a Powertap GS and a Kinlin rim using the Powertap spoke length chart. I'm not sure if the published ERD on my rim was off, but my spokes were almost too long using that chart. (They are about one turn away from bottoming out in the threads at proper tension.) I'd consider going 1-2 mm shorter than what that chart says just to be safe. The problem with spokes too short is if they're not long enough to engage five or more threads when at tension. The problem with spokes too long can be that the spoke bottoms out in the threads before it's at tension or that the end pokes through the nipple. The latter issue is not an issue with deep carbon rims as it will never be long enough to stick out far enough to poke a hole in a tube.

So why would anyone match their rear wheel to their front? Sounds like it's always beneficial to ride a deeper rear wheel than front. Cost and aesthetics...anything else?

Appreciate all your help (and hopefully) helpful for others, too).

I think I've reached (in)decision paralysis :(

Why don't you just give me a call? I'm 702-529-4744. I can answer all of the questions and concerns that you have. Talking this type of decision through often helps.

Thanks, let's do that, perhaps tomorrow? I typed up a sort of summary for that convo, fairly redundant with the rest of the threat but at least it's all in one place. And I figure no downside sharing here, other than making it seem like I'm a bit OCD about this decision (which is probably somewhat on point).

Seeking all-purpose wheels for 2013 Specialized Roubaix (bought used for $1200 in 2014) with dual-position seatpost and quick-release aerobars, ridden maybe 70 percent of the time as road bike, 30 percent as tri bike. Doing triathlons occasionally starting just over a year ago, so far two Olympic, two HIM. Trained with a coach for the first HIM, and will likely do an IM down the road, and definitely more HIMs. Ride along the Pacific with often feisty winds, often crosswinds, on chipseal roads that are often fairly cracked, and sporadic climbing (more like big hills than mountains, though).

Am MOP triathlete and will stay there, have neither athleticism nor motivation to podium. Love pushing myself, though, and am an okay athlete. But a marginal increase in top speed, and a few minutes knocked off a triathlon bike leg, barely matter to me. If I really get into triathlon, might get a real tri bike down the road, but not in the near term.

What does matter to me are riding characteristics (love feeling the bike surge when I jam on the pedals, or the feeling of carving a turn). Note that Roubaix is a bit of a damped ride, and I like that over rough roads, but my next road bike, sometime down the road, might be a little livelier. Definitely want a wide rim that works well with 23 and 25mm GP4000s, which I really like, but currently ride on narrow OEM rims.

Budget is complicated. On the one hand, it seems crazy to spend what I spent on the bike, or more, on wheels. On the other hand, there's no firm budget constraint. I want to get something I'm going to enjoy riding.

So I can't tell whether 1) something like Flo 30s are basically going to check all my boxes 2) deeper carbon clincher options like Flo 45s, 60s, or options like the Powertap AMP 35/50 or 50/50 or Reynolds or Williams or others are going to be meaningfully more satisfying to ride, because they accelerate faster, hold their speed, damp bad roads, etc. (with the marginal increase in speed being a bonus but not a big deal; same for aethetics, deeper carbon wheels look cool, albeit also a bit poser-esque for someone who's not particularly fast). And if I am going for option 2, there are a ton of options among which I have to choose.

So why new wheels at all? Powertap clearing out $299 GS hubs, have been meaning to get power to improve quality of future training with a coach and just because I enjoy data. OEM wheels are super narrow, awkward mushroom tire profiles, my perception is a wider wheel will ride meaningfully better. And though I have no basis for comparison, OEM wheels (Specialized Axis 1.0) are not much liked online.

If I had to choose right now, I'd probably get Flo 30s. But this is my chance to get something nicer, and I'm not quite persuaded to close that door.

Just read this thread and your decision-making process with interest, and empathy!

It's missing the final chapter - what did you go with in the end?