A good position is a good position. There are a lot of triathletes with similar positions. Most have come to this position with a good fitter who understands that a triathlete position can be both aero and comfortable. What you see most of is people who get fit by someone at a bike shop who has no clue what they are doing, or someone who has just bought a bike because it is "fast". Unfortunately, more often than not, if you tell someone at a shop you do IM or HIM they stick the person in a position that looks like a road bike with clip ons. The reason is that is pretty much all they know. I can't stress enough the need for a good reputable fitter. Even better if they've spent a lot of time testing people's aerodynamics.

Edit:

Triathletes are lucky since they don't have to be constrained to UCI rules regarding saddle set back of extension length. Some of these World Tour riders would look a bit different/better on the bike if those did not exist.

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One major difference is the TdF guys are world-class athletes riding a 30-60 minute TTs. Position has no compromise.

Age grouper fitness and flexibility is all across the board with some bike splits taking upwards of 8 hours. So obviously comfort and practicality has to be taken into consideration.

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The biggest limiting factor is that Tdf riders are bound by UCI rules which restricts certain elements of their position such as saddle setback and extension length. Another factor is that, at that level, the course is always closed and generally in pretty good shape so some riders dial in their position to the point that they barely look forward.

All of that said, if you compare world class guys like Kienle etc to the Tdf guys there's really not much of a difference. Same for some of the really fast age groupers.

If it were not for UCsillyI rules, TTers in bike races would be in completely different positions. Of that you can be sure.

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So would we say the muscles they use are no different that what we SHOULD be using in triathlon?
Or do we inhibit some of the muscle groups taking in consideration the run?

I don't think that fast triathletes use the positions that they do on their bikes so they can run faster.

Fast triathletes use the positions that they do on the bike so they can bike faster.

And so would most TT riders, if they were not constrained by (idiotic) rules.

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Triathletes also have a lot of upper body mass where as TDF riders, well not so much. They also don't have to swim before hand, nor run afterwards. For me a position that feels relaxed and cruisey the day before the race ends up feeling extremely constrained after a hard swim

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I'm curious how you think they'd be completely different...?

As for not being able to hold an aggressive position for long enough, I don't buy it. In my experience, most people who do the work can hold their aggressive TT position comfortably for hours (and if not then they have more work to do!).

I quite honestly think the reason is that it takes years of work for *most* people to get their TT position dialed like the TdF riders. It takes a lot of time tinkering and testing, stretching, training, and a lot of dedication, and for that matter, a lot of knowledge too that isn't widely available. AGs take 8 hours because they don't have time to train for less. They also don't have time to learn how and dial their positions. Even many (most?) pros don't have the ability or access to resources to do it.

I know you have said this a few times and up until my second race this season it didn't really hit home. I changed position a bit this winter and went a bit lower and was fine on the trainer and on the road but wouldn't you know it my arms needed a bit of shaking out during the bike leg. You never really take the swim into account until you feel it in race day!

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The TTers would have body positions much like very fast triathletes, at least for their respective distances.

In other words, a 40km TTer, if he/she were unconstrained by UCsillyI rules, would have a position much like a very fast 40K triathlete (assuming that the rules would be equally unconstrained on bike geometry too, of course).

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I think you're overstating the effect of UCI rules. I've never thought it was that big of a deal, particularly once the "morphological exemption" is taken into account.

Since the OP mentioned Rohan here he is. Explain how his position would be "completely different" if he didn't have to follow UCI rules:

There would be more "superman" positions.

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Possibly. That would make them even more different from triathletes, though. I think the argument was going the other way - the claim was that UCI rules were preventing UCI guys from having triathlete positions. I'm not aware that "superman"-like positions are popular in pro or age-group triathlon.

Yup, it would make them more different than triathletes. The rules are constraining pro cyclists, but not in the way that DSW thinks.

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Mantis position

Right, a few might do mantis/superman - thought I seriously doubt it would become commonplace. But what triathlete uses it regularly? I think a few pro triathletes have tinkered with it - that's about it.

I don't think they are constrained much either, except for quite tall riders who really should be allowed more reach. They've allowed more extension rise this year, but not many are taking advantage of it.

And if they weren't constrained they wouldn't be looking like triathletes. The difference in speed is not even close to being comparable.

Jesse Thomas and TJ Tollaksen off the top of my head.

Flexibility isn't really a concern or limitation. Some of those TdF guys can't touch their toes but can ride a significantly aggressive TT position. But yes, they don't have to compromise as they are on the bike a shorter period of time and they don't have to run after.

I believe there are actually a few poor positions among the TdF field (saddles too low). The elites generally look textbook.

Contrary to the OP, I see a lot more similarities between TdF riders and triathletes than I ever have previously. It's evidence that we've converged on an orthodox way to be positioned on a TT bike. Just 10 years ago you'd even find all manner of TT fit variance just among the TdF field. Not so much anymore.

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+1

Somewhere, a pro road racer is having a great laugh. "You know, those triathletes actually think they have better TT positions than we do. Too funny!"

Also a lot of TdF riders are road racers and not that interested in riding TTs. Yes they have to ride them now and again and to do well on GC it is essential but many would be not that interested. The bike in Tri is a TT and makes up for ½ the time of the event so really I would expect many triathletes to be better at a TT that a lot of even very good road riders.

Winner winner chicken dinner.

Typical pro TT race courses have climbs, descents and various technical elements that would likely make such a set up impractical.

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The praying mantis is position is not even close to the Superman position. Two completely different positions.

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My intent wasn't to claim they were the same...but now it does feel kind of silly using the ambiguous '/' to save myself from typing 'or'.

RIght and I don't think we give TJ just enough credit for how good his .cDa is given his body size. It really works for him. I would like to move to a full mantis setup myself, but I want to do it right and my current aerobar setup does not allow it.

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Uh-huh......You realize "it" is singular, right? So when you say "IT would become commonplace" or "uses IT regularly" you are saying they are the same thing.

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Yeah, that's why I brought it up. I came over to road from triathlon, and I'm 6'3". And I ride steep, like a triathlete. At one event where it was unclear if UCI rules would be enforced, so I thought I'd better check to see if I could make it compliant "in the field" and prepared myself for fit armageddon. But it wouldn't have been too hard, taking the morph-exemption at the saddle and accepting a few cm shorter extensions, and (at the time) moving the hands a bit lower. They didn't end up enforcing, thankfully, though.

Sigh. Only on slowtwitch would someone freak the hell out over suspected ignorance over the extremes of TT position.

I'm on the World Hour Record Discussion group on Facebook, I understand me my superman history!

I apologize for my imprecise language.

Agreed. In fact, I'd say grossly overstating the difference.

Maybe not full superman, but something closer to it. Maybe. And maybe not commonplace either, but a certain Graeme obree used it pretty well on road tt's as well as on the track.

You'd still have bullhorns for descents and stuff.

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They put out crazy watts which makes up for massive aero sins. I will say having studied a number of them IMO that width matters more than height. So many people focus on getting low, low, low and I think getting narrow trumps height. You can actually create a smaller footprint in a higher position AND still generate a ton of watts. My $0.02.

Road TTs that Obree did in the UK are mostly non technical out/back courses.

Without the rules riders would be in fully faired recumbents designed with enough handling/braking capabilities to cope.

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If you compmare the best proTT riders to pro triathletes the difference is probably due more to the demands of the event as much as anything else - distance, swim before, run after, etc. The UCI rules are there but with some recent changes more latitude in position is possible. An example is the 10 cm vertical distance from the arm rests to the end of the aero bars.and not level as in the past. A mild mantis position is possible as shown by TJ. Very tall riders such as myself are slightly constrained but with some patience is possible to get a great position with the UCI constraints.

Certainly a full superman position is probably faster than a great UCI legal position as shown by world hour records ( both male and female absolute records set in the superman position are a couple of km faster than the current UCI legal positions ) but in pursuit the current records in legal positions are faster than those in superman positions and neither was set at alditude.

I don't see anyone trying to ride a superman position in tri even though it's very very fast. constraints of the sport. How about an equally fast Obree "egg" position. Try to hold either for 4 plus hours. Good luck with that.

I think with MOP triathletes or Cat 4 ( sorry - not trying to offend either ) most have equally slow positions but that just observation

Back to demands of the event: I have a pretty aggressive UCI legal,position ( 22 cm drop from saddle to arm rest, I use 5 cm morph exception so 85 cm from saddle nose to bar ends and 5 cm setback with an ISM saddle ) . I can ride for 40 km or more hard no issue but I tried to relax it slightly and ride a 170 km event. There is no way on earth I could run 5 km after that . 42 ? Shoot me please.

Many triathletes better in the TT than very good road riders? You forgot the pink font.

I don't see many Triathletes even in the Pro ranks with aggressive positions. There is a reason for this, they have to run afterwards and they are on the bike much longer. Here is a bunch of 50 + age grouper doing a TTT on a day with 50 mph cross wind gust. Being so windy and a Team TT, everyone has their heads up and sitting pretty high. But anyone of these guys position would rival the better positioned Triathletes.

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