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Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price'
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We can only hope so.

http://thehill.com/...-if-they-suggest-nra


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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No they won't.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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Some will, but I have a feeling those that are at risk (red state democrats), kept their mouths shut. Manchin is probably at risk. Fucker was pushing the universal background checks and ending ftf sales. He had a commercial of him shooting a "bill" meant to be obamacare while running for senate in West VA. He should know better. Toomey may also. See, idiots like to blame the NRA, but the NRA isn't some mystical force. People in red states love their guns and don't like politicians telling them what they can and can't have. I'm not a criminal, I don't use my guns illegally. Why shouldn't I be able to have guns I've had for years because some nutjob shoots up a bunch of people? The argument for most conservatives doesn't get more complicated than that.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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No one wants to take your guns, it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
No one wants to take your guns, it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.

Tell that to the people of NY. Of course there are plenty who want your guns and they will never say that until they know they can get them.

To Forges point, I don't think it hurts reps who say they are fighting the NRA. The media narrative is too strong that the mean NRA forces congress to vote down gun laws. The reps blaming the NRA live in very blue big city districts where they would vote democrat even if they are convicted of drug charges.

The reality is 5 million people who are NRA members actually represent 20-50 million of people who always vote based on gun issues. People may not join the NRA, but still vote based on gun issues. Congress listens to large voting blocks.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
No one wants to take your guns, it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.

People often make statements just like yours to try to make the gun owners seem irrational and fearful. There are many people who do want to see confiscation and are vocal about it. You are either ignorant of them or oblivious to them.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
No one wants to take your guns, it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.



When governments make things harder to get (a-la licensing), they are just taking away your rights, and selling them back to you.

Unlawfully attaining a firearm would not be an insurmountable challenge for a deranged killer-to-be.
Last edited by: soulfresca: Jun 22, 16 21:47
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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And people think I'm crazy. All you have to do is look at the predictable slippery slope California and New York followed to see why we won't give an inch. Perhaps you should read the threads were even I acknowledged that I don't want terrorist to have guns and put a very detailed explanation of the issues that would have to be addressed to make a workable system. Or maybe you should go through the process JSA and I have been going through for six months to get a suppressor which only silences a gun to 124 db at best. JSA was rejected because of a clerical error and may have to start the process over. If you think the NRA and its supporter will give an inch that means lawfully obtaining becomes a bureaucratic obstacle, you are nuts.

And if you don't think people want to take away our guns you are nuts. Four articles in the last week have called for second amendment repeal. Clinton has called for an Australia style confiscation. If the is that what you call giving an inch.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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If you think the NRA and its supporter will give an inch that means lawfully obtaining becomes a bureaucratic obstacle, you are nuts.

If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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If you think the NRA and its supporter will give an inch that means lawfully obtaining becomes a bureaucratic obstacle, you are nuts.


If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.



Well the NRA did support the Cornyn bill that just failed to pass the senate. The gun issue is now seen as a winning issue for dems, and even dems admit that it is better to get nothing now and have it as an issue for the fall. (also the reason dems are sitting around in the house to draw attn to the issue)
-
quickie on the bills that failed:
http://keranews.org/...sure-fails-us-senate
Last edited by: dave_w: Jun 23, 16 6:20
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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They'll 'pay a price' by losing the support of people who already didn't support them. <Eyes rolling>
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Huh.

How would you characterize the NRA, then?









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Huh.

How would you characterize the NRA, then?

I think the NRA is a powerful political lobby with an extremely narrow focus on one issue with almost no regard for the consequences or side effects of their pet issue. This is not to say that every person who is a member of the NRA is a loon or anything, but the organization as a whole is questionable.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
No one wants to take your guns, it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.

Give them an inch
They take a yard.
Give them a yard
They take a mile.
Once a man and twice a child
Everything is just for awhile.

Seems like total destruction
The only solution.
And there ain't no use
No one can stop them now….

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
I think the ____ is a powerful political lobby with an extremely narrow focus on one issue with almost no regard for the consequences or side effects of their pet issue. This is not to say that every person who is a member of the ____ is a loon or anything, but the organization as a whole is questionable.

As demonstrated, you can replace "NRA" in your statement with pretty much any political lobby and still be 100% accurate.

"The right to party is a battle we have fought, but we'll surrender and go Amish... NOT!" -Wayne Campbell
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Some politicians who continue to let the NRA make the rules will "pay a price."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Huh.

How would you characterize the NRA, then?

Hillarious!

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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If you think the NRA and its supporter will give an inch that means lawfully obtaining becomes a bureaucratic obstacle, you are nuts.


If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.



To your point, I own guns as I've previously stated. I'm pro gun. I am an independent. I am not an NRA member as I don't think they are rational.
Last edited by: Harbinger: Jun 23, 16 7:01
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think the NRA is a powerful political lobby with an extremely narrow focus on one issue with almost no regard for the consequences or side effects of their pet issue.

Huh, again.

I disagree that they have no regard for the consequences or side effects. I think it's probably more accurate to say that you disagree with them to some degree about what the consequences and side effects of their positions are, or possibly about the best way to deal with those consequences and side effects.

They are a powerful political lobby. Their focus is narrow. I don't think that means they're irrational, or don't have the good of the American people and their rights in their thoughts.











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

I think the NRA is a powerful political lobby with an extremely narrow focus on one issue with almost no regard for the consequences or side effects of their pet issue.

Huh, again.

I disagree that they have no regard for the consequences or side effects. I think it's probably more accurate to say that you disagree with them to some degree about what the consequences and side effects of their positions are, or possibly about the best way to deal with those consequences and side effects.

They are a powerful political lobby. Their focus is narrow. I don't think that means they're irrational, or don't have the good of the American people and their rights in their thoughts.



Why did they successfully lobby to have funding for research into gun violence slashed by 95% for the CDC?

How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Why did they successfully lobby to have funding for research into gun violence slashed by 95% for the CDC?

I suspect based on some misguided notion that federally funded research into gun violence is biased. Or maybe they just figured we already have more research about gun violence than we can process. Or maybe they figure the federal government doesn't need to be paying for gun violence research when so many other entities already do so.

I happen to disagree with that position- largely because the CDC research and other objective information supports most of the NRA's claims. I'm sure I disagree with the NRA on a number of specific issues. That doesn't make them irrational, and it doesn't mean they aren't concerned with the rights and welfare of the American people.









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

Why did they successfully lobby to have funding for research into gun violence slashed by 95% for the CDC?

I suspect based on some misguided notion that federally funded research into gun violence is biased. Or maybe they just figured we already have more research about gun violence than we can process. Or maybe they figure the federal government doesn't need to be paying for gun violence research when so many other entities already do so.

I happen to disagree with that position- largely because the CDC research and other objective information supports most of the NRA's claims. I'm sure I disagree with the NRA on a number of specific issues. That doesn't make them irrational, and it doesn't mean they aren't concerned with the rights and welfare of the American people.

I'd be interested to hear what misguided notion it is that they used to justify not allowing research on gun violence, and making CDC funding dependent on the agency not being allowed to promote gun control.

I'd also be interested in what notion they used to justify, for instance, not allowing ATF to create digitized records, searchable by name. It's not like they're protecting gun owners, since their names are already on the records. They're just putting up barriers to administrative paperwork, since the ATF has to pore through paper records instead.

The NRA has some defensible positions. But they also have some downright ridiculous tactics and positions that clearly are there to protect the firearm industry, and thwart any type of negative characterization of firearms in this country.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I think the NRA is a powerful political lobby with an extremely narrow focus on one issue with almost no regard for the consequences or side effects of their pet issue.


I agree.


Rightly or wrongly, they are seen as having a lot of power and influence over elected officials. Given the current frustration over politics and the way things work in Washington, I don't think anyone standing up to the NRA now is going to pay a price at all. I think the Democrats recognise that and are taking advantage.


I do find it interesting that the sit-in is occurring after the shooting in Orlando. Why wasn't there the same action after 20 children were shot in Sandy Hook or after one of the other school shootings? Is it because it is another shooting and people are saying enough or is it because there is an election?
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Sanuk] [ In reply to ]
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Sanuk wrote:
Rightly or wrongly, they are seen as having a lot of power and influence over elected officials. Given the current frustration over politics and the way things work in Washington, I don't think anyone standing up to the NRA now is going to pay a price at all. I think the Democrats recognise that and are taking advantage.


I do find it interesting that the sit-in is occurring after the shooting in Orlando. Why wasn't there the same action after 20 children were shot in Sandy Hook or after one of the other school shootings? Is it because it is another shooting and people are saying enough or is it because there is an election?

I would guess it is more the recent shooting than the election year. I do remember a big push after Sandy Hook, I don't recall a sit-in taking place though.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
vitus979 wrote:

Why did they successfully lobby to have funding for research into gun violence slashed by 95% for the CDC?

I suspect based on some misguided notion that federally funded research into gun violence is biased. Or maybe they just figured we already have more research about gun violence than we can process. Or maybe they figure the federal government doesn't need to be paying for gun violence research when so many other entities already do so.

I happen to disagree with that position- largely because the CDC research and other objective information supports most of the NRA's claims. I'm sure I disagree with the NRA on a number of specific issues. That doesn't make them irrational, and it doesn't mean they aren't concerned with the rights and welfare of the American people.


I'd be interested to hear what misguided notion it is that they used to justify not allowing research on gun violence, and making CDC funding dependent on the agency not being allowed to promote gun control.

I'd also be interested in what notion they used to justify, for instance, not allowing ATF to create digitized records, searchable by name. It's not like they're protecting gun owners, since their names are already on the records. They're just putting up barriers to administrative paperwork, since the ATF has to pore through paper records instead.

The NRA has some defensible positions. But they also have some downright ridiculous tactics and positions that clearly are there to protect the firearm industry, and thwart any type of negative characterization of firearms in this country.

Search on the first point, and you'll find that the CDC is hardly unbiased. There is not supposed to be any national gun-owner registry. The instant background checks go into FBI databases and check for matching names.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
We can only hope so.

http://thehill.com/...-if-they-suggest-nra

It's too soon to say, it appears as though America is still struggling over it's 'soul' - whether we will defend what and who we love with firearms, or put our 'trust in God'. My hunch is that before we know how this story ends there is much killing to be done. Lots more killing.
By 'trust in God' I don't necessarily mean become a Christian Nation - but realize that who and what we love can not be achieved or defended with a rifle - and there are times when we know this to be true, but we can't help ourselves, we've got to fight or at least strut. We don't need no stinkin' apes to become a planet of the apes.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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Search on the first point, and you'll find that the CDC is hardly unbiased.

My comment wasn't a defense of the CDC.

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There is not supposed to be any national gun-owner registry.

Because the NRA lobbied to make it that way. As a result, when agencies like the ATF have to search, which they inevitably MUST do, they have to try to do it with paper copies. This is 2016, last I checked. Preventing Federal agencies from digitally compiling records in a searchable database is kind of silly.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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vitus979 wrote:

If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Huh.

How would you characterize the NRA, then?

The NRA is the trade association of firearm manufacturers. They look out for their share holders - the manufacturers. The only reason the public can join is to enrichen their share holders.

The NRA puts on a lot of shooting competitions - Bullseye is very similar to ISSC Standard Pistol competition - but do so in the hope to enrichen their share holders.
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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The NRA capitulated in the 90's and actually wrote the AWB as a form of compromise and lost a lot of members. In fact, board members split and formed more extreme pro gun organizations that are geared more towards gun owners.

So I would argue that NRA is more in tune with actual gun owners than they have been in the past. You are a smart guy, and I have written pretty factual post here about how C4 organizations work and the extent of their power.

We can go back and forth all we want about how the power of the NRA is their money. And there is certainly some truth to that. But I have seen many astro-turf industry lobbying efforts fail because they lacked member engagement, even if they had real members. The NRA is not astro-turf. They have a very active and loyal membership. That is their power along with the money. That is why even dems fear their wrath.

The NRA is the very essence of power to the people. It is certainly more effective than going at it alone.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Did you enjoy Charles Rangle's comments? ;)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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Which one?

I'll tell you what concerns me though. I was listening to a radio show (Steele and Unger) and I heard three callers call the NRA a terrorist organization and until congress calls it such, there will be no change. Steele and Unger is a pretty rational across the aisle show. Unger is a democrat operative and while he tried to let the callers off easy, he said that such a claim bordered on outrageous. They like any lobbying organization are entitled to their opinion and able to use the laws to lobby for what they believe. Once caller claimed that the blood was on their hands, and Unger basically said, regardless of what you or I think of the NRA, they have a lot of members who do not view actions as extreme. They may not view their actions as extreme and may genuinely believe in their cause. I certainly believe in their cause and don't think they are "radical" enough.

Unger then compared it to liberal cause groups that conservatives may view as radical with too much sway over democrats. Once caller devolved back into the well guns kill people, the sierra club is promoting good policies, and garbage like that.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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This wouldn't be an issue if islamic gunmen would stop pledging allegiance to the NRA before they go killing kafirs.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Herbert wrote:
No one wants to take your guns,it should just not be simple to get a hold of them. That is what most folks want and the NRA is fighting. They basically do not want to give an inch.

Did you mean for that to be in pink?

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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My comment wasn't a defense of the CDC.

Well, if you're going to tacitly agree with Dave's assertion that the CDC is biased on the issue of guns, the NRA's objection to that agency carrying out gun violence research starts to sound much more reasonable to me.

I don't really know if the CDC is biased or not, but like most people, pretty much assume they're going to be unbiased and scientific and objective and stuff like that. And as a gun owner, I have nothing to fear from more knowledge. So when I hear the NRA has blocked CDC research, I figure the NRA is making a mistake. That changes if there's a legitimate complaint of bias on the CDC's part, though. Obviously.

As for the NRA's insistence that the CDC refrain from advocating for gun control, they're entirely right about that. Objective research into gun violence might be legitimately within the CDC's purview. Advocacy is not.


This is 2016, last I checked. Preventing Federal agencies from digitally compiling records in a searchable database is kind of silly.

No, it's not silly at all. A national gun registry has long been feared by gun owners because of the ease with which it could be used to confiscate guns. (Please don't say, "nobody wants to take your guns." Maybe the only thing gun rights advocates hear more often than that is, "nobody wants to create a national gun registry." Both are patently untrue.) Back when the national instant background check system was being argued over and implemented, the NRA did lobby to make sure that a registry wouldn't result, and were promised (in law) that no permanent records would be kept of the checks, and thus no registry created. Seems to me perfectly reasonable. (Though of course, they did keep records, illegally, until they were caught.)

Would it be easier for the ATF to run checks with a national database of gun owners? Sure. That's not how we do things in a free society. Our imperative is to protect liberties and freedoms, not make things convenient for the government. It would be easier for law enforcement to investigate crimes if we all had to submit our fingerprints and a DNA sample, too, but I doubt that would get much support.











"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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The NRA is the very essence of power to the people

No it's not. The NRA has about 5 million members. The NRA is the very essence of power to the industry by playing on the emotions of a very small but vocal segment of the people.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Well, if you're going to tacitly agree with Dave's assertion that the CDC is biased on the issue of guns, the NRA's objection to that agency carrying out gun violence research starts to sound much more reasonable to me.

I don't think I tacitly agreed with anything. I simply am not mounting a defense of the CDC, mostly because I don't know enough about it as an organization to comment on its biases one way or the other.

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No, it's not silly at all. A national gun registry has long been feared by gun owners because of the ease with which it could be used to confiscate guns.

That's a silly fear, not because nobody wants to take the guns, but because those records already exist. The govt can already look through the records to find out who has the guns. They simply have to do it on paper, which serves mostly to hamper legitimate investigative efforts which are basically always ongoing.


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Would it be easier for the ATF to run checks with a national database of gun owners? Sure. That's not how we do things in a free society.

That's some high quality bullshit right there. The govt can search databases for drivers and registered owners of cars, they can search fingerprint and DNA databases, they can search phone and ISP databases, etc, etc. Being a free society has very little to do with this.


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It would be easier for law enforcement to investigate crimes if we all had to submit our fingerprints and a DNA sample, too, but I doubt that would get much support.

And yet, as I mentioned, for those who have given fingerprints for various reasons, we have a digitally searchable database.

Why do we hate fingerprint freedom?!?!?!?

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, I think I have been very clear that the NRA is an industry lobby and in many cases the goals of owners and manufacturers are the same. The AWB was a well documented example where it wasn't, and the NRA paid a price for that. But go on believing what you want. Do you really think the NRA would have the power it does if it didn't have 5,000,000 members. Many who proudly wear their NRA hats or lifetime member jackets?

I don't wear neither, like I said, I view the NRA as a necessary evil, much more willing to compromise on behalf of gun manufactures than I would like. I am much more in line with Gunowners of American and Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership. But they are effective in fighting off the anti-gun lobby, and that is good for me.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Do you really think the NRA would have the power it does if it didn't have 5,000,000 members. Many who proudly wear their NRA hats or lifetime member jackets?

Of course a good deal of its power comes from those members. As I said, it's an industry organization that uses the emotions of their relatively small, but also very active and vocal, membership. That's not "power to the people." It's taking advantage of the people for power.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Taking advantage, really? That would assume that one side doesn't satisfactorily benefit from the relationship. We know that isn't the case. In the scenario you propose assumes that its members wouldn't be vocal and active in the absence of such emotion fed by the NRA. I don't believe half the crap the NRA says because they say it. I only need to read the news. That is what motivates me. The NRA is just a means to the end to preserve what I hold dear. I don't care if the NRA or Manufactures benfit financially more than I do.

I could say the same for any lobbying effort by gov't, which I think should be illegal for gov't entities to actively lobby for their existence or laws that benefit them or their workers. How about unions? Unions themselves benefit more than their members?


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [scorpio516] [ In reply to ]
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scorpio516 wrote:
vitus979 wrote:

If you think the NRA is a rational organization with the good of the American people and their rights primary in their thoughts, you are nuts.

Huh.

How would you characterize the NRA, then?

The NRA is the trade association of firearm manufacturers. They look out for their share holders - the manufacturers. The only reason the public can join is to enrichen their share holders.

Pretty much what I was gonna say... Their main goal is helping firearm/ammo manufacturers sell as much product as easily as possible, not that different from most trade industry lobbying groups. Representing gun owners is obviously related to that, just as a tail is to a dog.
Last edited by: OneGoodLeg: Jun 23, 16 12:31
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Taking advantage, really? That would assume that one side doesn't satisfactorily benefit from the relationship.

It doesn't imply that at all. The membership may be quite satisfied. Similarly, much of the American public is satisfied with what they get at McDonalds, but clearly that company is taking advantage of poor eating habits, twisted ideas about "value," and the lack of purchasing savvy of that same public.

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How about unions? Unions themselves benefit more than their members?

Some (I don't know about all) unions are in a similar position in which they take money from members, and lobby ostensibly on behalf of members, but in reality are lining the pockets of a smaller group of people not quite so concerned with the things unions were designed to accomplish.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I simply am not mounting a defense of the CDC, mostly because I don't know enough about it as an organization to comment on its biases one way or the other.

Seems like we're in the same boat, then. Like I said, my default assumption is that they're reasonably unbiased, which is why I think the NRA's position on CDC research is misguided. But since I don't really know, and Dave says they're known to be biased, maybe the NRA isn't as mistaken as I think. Either way, hardly an issue that shows the NRA to be irrational and unconcerned with the rights of the people.


That's a silly fear, not because nobody wants to take the guns, but because those records already exist. The govt can already look through the records to find out who has the guns. They simply have to do it on paper, which serves mostly to hamper legitimate investigative efforts which are basically always ongoing.

Right. Because there's no significant difference between having a centralized national digital database, and having paper records stored at the points of sale all over the country. OK.

The govt can search databases for drivers and registered owners of cars, they can search fingerprint and DNA databases, they can search phone and ISP databases, etc, etc. Being a free society has very little to do with this.

Being a free society has less to do with anything with every passing month. But there is no such database that you have to enter into in order to exercise a Constitutional right, far as I'm aware.












"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Either way, hardly an issue that shows the NRA to be irrational and unconcerned with the rights of the people.

Taking lobbying action that ensures the primary federal agency responsible for studying the effects of gun violence in America can not do so is certainly not a show of concern for the rights of the people.

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Right. Because there's no significant difference between having a centralized national digital database, and having paper records stored at the points of sale all over the country. OK.

Of course there's a difference. It makes the job of federal agencies more difficult. It's not going to prevent them from doing that job. So preventing a database is nothing more than a petty stall tactic.

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But there is no such database that you have to enter into in order to exercise a Constitutional right, far as I'm aware.

You don't have to register to vote?



Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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Either way, hardly an issue that shows the NRA to be irrational and unconcerned with the rights of the people.


Taking lobbying action that ensures the primary federal agency responsible for studying the effects of gun violence in America can not do so is certainly not a show of concern for the rights of the people.

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Right. Because there's no significant difference between having a centralized national digital database, and having paper records stored at the points of sale all over the country. OK.


Of course there's a difference. It makes the job of federal agencies more difficult. It's not going to prevent them from doing that job. So preventing a database is nothing more than a petty stall tactic.

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But there is no such database that you have to enter into in order to exercise a Constitutional right, far as I'm aware.


You don't have to register to vote?



You should know better than that. Voting isn't a constitutional right, it is a gov't granted right. There are no mentions of the right to vote in the constitution, only in various amendments are there protections against certain discrimination to vote. You can't be banned from voting based on race or gender. But you could be banned based on something like not paying taxes, not owning land, etc. At least that hasn't been challenged as nobody has been bold enough to push such a great idea. The only way I see that being invalidated is if they create new law (obamacare) or pretty much link it to discrimination like a pole tax. Meaning that land ownership or paying taxed disproportionately affects minorities or women.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
slowguy wrote:
Quote:
Either way, hardly an issue that shows the NRA to be irrational and unconcerned with the rights of the people.


Taking lobbying action that ensures the primary federal agency responsible for studying the effects of gun violence in America can not do so is certainly not a show of concern for the rights of the people.

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Right. Because there's no significant difference between having a centralized national digital database, and having paper records stored at the points of sale all over the country. OK.


Of course there's a difference. It makes the job of federal agencies more difficult. It's not going to prevent them from doing that job. So preventing a database is nothing more than a petty stall tactic.

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But there is no such database that you have to enter into in order to exercise a Constitutional right, far as I'm aware.


You don't have to register to vote?




You should know better than that. Voting isn't a constitutional right, it is a gov't granted right. There are no mentions of the right to vote in the constitution, only in various amendments are there protections against certain discrimination to vote. You can't be banned from voting based on race or gender. But you could be banned based on something like not paying taxes, not owning land, etc. At least that hasn't been challenged as nobody has been bold enough to push such a great idea. The only way I see that being invalidated is if they create new law (obamacare) or pretty much link it to discrimination like a pole tax. Meaning that land ownership or paying taxed disproportionately affects minorities or women.

The right to vote is absolutely a Constitutional right. Pull out your copy of the Constitution and try again.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Ok where?

http://www.politifact.com/...ght-vote-wisconsin-/

I'll save you some trouble.

In other words, the Supreme Court declared that the Constitution contains no right to vote for president, Alexander Keyssar, professor of history and social policy at Harvard University, told us.
That’s OK as far as it goes; let’s go further.
Other evidence
A number of other authorities who back an amendment like the one Pocan proposes have cited the lack of the guarantee he cites:
-- Keyssar, author of The Right to Vote: The Contested History of Democracy in the United States, told us: "The basic fact is there is no affirmative right to vote in the U.S. Constitution. Never was."
-- FairVote, which seeks to reform elections, says that while constitutional amendments prohibit discrimination based on race, sex and age, "no affirmative right to vote exists."
-- In a 2012 piece for Salon.com, Yale law professor Heather Gerken wrote: "The Constitution does not guarantee Americans the right to vote. That always comes as a surprise to non-lawyers."
-- In 2006, University of Baltimore law professor Garrett Epps, critical of photo ID requirements, made almost the same statement Pocan did, saying: "The U.S. Constitution does not explicitly guarantee a right to vote."


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
Last edited by: TheForge: Jun 23, 16 16:09
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Taking lobbying action that ensures the primary federal agency responsible for studying the effects of gun violence in America can not do so is certainly not a show of concern for the rights of the people.

Uh, yeah . . . Unless of course concerns about the bias of that agency are legitimate . . . Besides, nobody's rights are going to be violated because the CDC doesn't study gun violence. And besides that, let it go, man. It's one relatively minor talking point. I happen to fall pretty much in line with you on it, but let's not pretend it's the definitive point about the NRA.


Of course there's a difference. It makes the job of federal agencies more difficult. It's not going to prevent them from doing that job. So preventing a database is nothing more than a petty stall tactic.

Nobody is trying to prevent the appropriate agencies from doing their legitimate jobs. At the same time, making it easy for them to do so is not a particularly high priority in a free society when weighed against making it more difficult and less tempting for them to abuse their power.



You don't have to register to vote?

Well, score one empty point for your position, I guess. Yeah, you have to register to vote. Of course, registering to vote is an act that enables you to vote- it empowers you- rather than an act that puts you at increased risk of having your right infringed in the future, as with gun registration. So, yeah, semantically true, but not at all the same. And besides, I don't register to vote with some centralized digital database maintained by the federal government, either.

Basically, you just disagree with the NRA. That's fine. But don't pretend that just because they disagree with you they aren't actually concerned with their foundational cause.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Ok where?

Right here:

The US Constitution, Amendment XV, which was ratified by the states in 1870: "Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of race, color, or previous condition of servitude.

This sentence clearly indicates that the right to vote exists, and that it may not be denied or abridged based on those factors. It's fairly similar in language to the 2nd Amendment which never says "Americans have a right to keep and bear arms," but rather says, "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."


If no affirmative right to vote exists, then no affirmative right to keep and bear arms exists either.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Uh, yeah . . . Unless of course concerns about the bias of that agency are legitimate

Uh, no, because if the bias of that agency is in question, the solution that benefits the American people is to ferret out the bias and ensure impartiality, not make it so that they can't study gun related issues altogether.

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And besides that, let it go, man. It's one relatively minor talking point. I happen to fall pretty much in line with you on it, but let's not pretend it's the definitive point about the NRA.

I made no indication that it's the definitive point. I'm answering your posts. Let it go? Fuck off.

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Nobody is trying to prevent the appropriate agencies from doing their legitimate jobs.

Right, and nobody is trying to take your guns. Please.

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Well, score one empty point for your position, I guess.

I guess it's an empty point because it directly contradicts your position?

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Yeah, you have to register to vote. Of course, registering to vote is an act that enables you to vote- it empowers you- rather than an act that puts you at increased risk of having your right infringed in the future, as with gun registration.

Yeah, you have to register to vote. And that allows you to vote, and it puts your name in a digital searchable database. Similarly, you have to register your gun. That permits you to buy a gun, and yet your info does not go into a searchable database. This isn't a semantics issue Vitus. It's a nearly one for one comparison. Your issue is that you think someone is going to try to use that database to take guns away, and you either don't think or don't care that they might similarly use a voting database for nefarious purposes.

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And besides, I don't register to vote with some centralized digital database maintained by the federal government, either.

Which is beside the point. You register, and the database of voters' information can be searched digitally. I'm not suggesting a separate federal registry; simply that (like voter registry) the records should be available digitally and searchable, instead of in the same format they were 75 years ago.

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Basically, you just disagree with the NRA.

I disagree with the NRA on some positions and on some of the tactics they've used, and on some of the lobbying actions they have taken. So do you.

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But don't pretend that just because they disagree with you they aren't actually concerned with their foundational cause.

Their foundational cause was to "promote and encourage rifle shooting on a scientific basis." They certainly are not primarily concerned with that cause anymore. They are now mostly concerned with protecting the market for firearms manufacturers.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Stop, just admitted you are wrong. I know that is hard for you sometimes. Even I have been known to admit I'm wrong.

You basically regurgitated what I said, so I will repost and highlight the key points so you stop wasting peoples time with this nonsense:

You should know better than that. Voting isn't a constitutional right, it is a gov't granted right. There are no mentions of the right to vote in the constitution, only in various amendments are there protections against certain discrimination to vote. You can't be banned from voting based on race or gender. But you could be banned based on something like not paying taxes, not owning land, etc. At least that hasn't been challenged as nobody has been bold enough to push such a great idea. The only way I see that being invalidated is if they create new law (obamacare) or pretty much link it to discrimination like a pole tax. Meaning that land ownership or paying taxed disproportionately affects minorities or women.

I also provided a fact check from politifact with support from constitutional scholars that clearly state what I said here and highlighted those.

There is no affirmative right to vote, only gov't granted right that is constitutionally protected against certain provisions. The existence of subsequent amendments imply the right. But intending or implying aren’t quite the same as an explicit guarantee. And in Pocan's opinion, an explicit guarantee would make it more difficult to put restrictions on voting.

So you could and should be banned from voting for the reason I presented. But lets look at other reasons you could be banned. You can be banned for being a felon, so we could require a background check, which would require an ID. We can actually even ban you from voting for being on the terror watchlist, because this isn't a constitutional right subject to due process.

I also said that this is based solely on the lack of guarantee in the constitution and caselaw. If somebody were righteous and bold enough to ban voting from people who don't pay income tax or appear on the watchlist, it would certainly go to the supreme court. And it may well BECOME a constitutional right. But it doesn't exist now in its current form.


Hence why I posted an article with sufficient evidence that even you have to concede defeat through your thick skull:

1. the Supreme Court declared that the Constitution contains no right to vote for president.
2. Keyssar, author of The Right to Vote: The Contested History of Democracy in the United States, told us: "The basic fact is there is no affirmative right to vote in the U.S. Constitution. Never was."
3. FairVote, which seeks to reform elections, says that while constitutional amendments prohibit discrimination based on race, sex and age, "no affirmative right to vote exists."
4. In a 2012 piece for Salon.com, Yale law professor Heather Gerken wrote: "The Constitution does not guarantee Americans the right to vote. That always comes as a surprise to non-lawyers."
5. In 2006, University of Baltimore law professor Garrett Epps, critical of photo ID requirements, made almost the same statement Pocan did, saying: "The U.S. Constitution does not explicitly guarantee a right to vote."


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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I like the current system where a firearm used in a crime must be traced to the manufacturer and the store that it was distributed to. Then the agents can go scan through piles of paper. Anything that prevents gov't agents from looking into my purchases on a whim is fine by me. But it wouldn't matter anyways, because by the time they came for my guns, I would have documented evidence that I sold them to random strangers. In fact, if they banned face to face transactions, I would sell them all before the law came into effect. I take that back, I would keep a couple of my bolt action guns and pistols never likely to be banned as evidence that I'm a "reasonable" gun owner. And it would be good to have a gun or two I could give to whatever agents come for them.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Oh, and various things you have said here over the years have affirmed to me why gov't should have as little ready access to such info.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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Voting isn't a constitutional right, it is a gov't granted right.

Wrong. Voting is every bit as much a Constitutional right as the right to keep and bear arms.

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There are no mentions of the right to vote in the constitution,

Wrong. I quoted one of them to you.

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only in various amendments

The Amendments are part of the Constitution. Same place the right to keep and bear arms is found.

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But you could be banned based on something like not paying taxes, not owning land, etc.

And you can be banned from owning firearms for being convicted of a felony.

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There is no affirmative right to vote

Again, there is the same basic language for the right to vote as for the right to keep and bear arms. For neither right is there and affirmative statement that Americans have X or Y right. Both are listed in terms of a right that shall not be infringed on in some way. Both are found in the Constitution. Both are Constitutional rights.

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Hence why I posted an article with sufficient evidence that even you have to concede defeat through your thick skull:

You haven't posted anything with any evidence of anything. The Constitution does not explicitly list a right to vote for President. That doesn't mean there isn't a Constitutional right to vote. Keyssar says there is no "affirmative right to vote." That doesn't mean the right isn't in the Constitution. Only that it isn't affirmatively stated (neither is the right to keep and bear arms).

You are apparently too dense to understand that just because a right is not stated affirmatively, that doesn't mean it isn't in the Constitution. The Constitution does not state anywhere in it that you have freedom of speech, or the right to assemble, or the right to petition the govt, or the right to keep and bear arms. It says that no laws may be made abridging free speech, or the right to assemble, or the right to petition the govt, and that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. From those statements, we infer that those rights must exist. The same logic applies to the right to vote, and the fact that you found articles stating that the right to vote is not affirmatively stated doesn't constitute the evidence you think it does.





Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
Oh, and various things you have said here over the years have affirmed to me why gov't should have as little ready access to such info.

And the things you've said over the years have affirmed to me that you have no business near a firearm, but I'm not coming for your guns, because I'm not a paranoid borderline sociopath.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Somebody got under somebody's skin.

You hate being wrong don't cha Spock?


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
Somebody got under somebody's skin.

You hate being wrong don't cha Spock?

You're not under my skin. You're simply not correct. But hey, if you think there's no right to vote, that's fine. I'll make sure to let Hillary know you also don't think there's a right to own your guns, since the same construct is used to indicate that that right exists. And I'll let her know you also don't believe that you have the right to free speech, to practice your religion, to assemble peaceably, to petition your govt for redress of grievances be free from unreasonable search and seizure, etc.

Oh, and there's this stupid little gem you typed, "You can't be banned from voting based on race or gender. But you could be banned based on something like not paying taxes,..."

Might want to look that one up too. It hasn't been a good day for you and reading comprehension or Constitutional knowledge.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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You're wrong. Get over it.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden
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Re: Politicians who blame NRA for violence will 'pay a price' [TheForge] [ In reply to ]
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TheForge wrote:
You're wrong. Get over it.

Nothing to get over, but I see you've stopped even trying to make arguments, since you failed so spectacularly. That's probably a good tactic for you. You should give up more often. Or just not post to begin with. Save everyone some time and screen space.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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