http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/sports/outdoors/story/2016/may/22/ironman-participant-dies/366944/


Link button wouldn't work so you have to copy and paste.

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

It was at the start of the swim. I saw the paramedics going down the dock near the start times

I wonder if there was a swim warmup available and if he or she took part in it.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

If it's like Chatt Waterfront, no in-water warm-up. You go off the dock one by one.

Athlete's Guide:

Note: The swim start is off limits before and after the event. Training on the course before or after the race is strictly prohibited. Thank you for your compliance.


But also:

7. Warm Up on Race Day
• Arrive early enough on race day for a proper warm-up prior to the start, • If you aren’t able to warm up in the water, spend between 5 and 10
minutes getting loose.
• Be sure to do some cardio activity, such as a light jog, to increase
circulation and prep your muscles.

Very sad either way.

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clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

There is no swim start warmup for AG. There is one for pros although appeared to be short

Yeah, honestly... There should be a short swim course set up so that you can't get to the start line of the swim unless you swim a few hundreds yards to a buoy and back first - Barriers set up so there is no way for swimmers to get to the start line on foot. Imagine having to swim to a green buoy and back to get to the start line, at a causal pace. By the race start, you've spend a few minutes swimming, getting used to the motion so it's not such a shock. And if there's an issue, you can easily get out or get help. At swim meets, we'd swim half an hour to warm up to swim 50 yards. Swimming a few minutes easy before swimming hard for half an hour doesn't sound like a bad idea. Oh well... Sad to hear.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

First of all, really sad to hear about this. Thoughts to family, friend, relatives and co workers. No one expects that on Monday their loved one won't be back.

Your idea about having to "commute to start line" with a short swim detour is exactly what I have proposed several times. I don't understand why this can't be implemented. I have been at numerous WTC races where there was no swim warmup, but if they just made everyone either swim 100-200m to a start line for wave starts (vs on land) or if they made us do a 100-200m detour via water to get back in line for the rolling start it would be really helpful.

I very much agree with the proposal... it's somewhat insane that they continue to not allow athletes to get a little pre-swim considering death in swim portion is on the ride over the last few years. Smaller local races I've done always allowed athletes to swim before, and even in Wildflower there was a 3 min period or so between each waves where you could get in the water. 3 mins is probably not enough to warm up properly, but still it won't be a shock to the body to jump into the water.

I'm not a strong swimmer, but just getting the entire body adjusted to the water temp (especially the face) is pretty crucial for me.

I think it's logistically easier with smaller races as well as shorter races. when you have long distance triathlons and then start adding in more time between waves you start extending the time for an already long race. Not saying it can't be done just I don't think it's that simple.

last year there was not. Would a light jog on dry land be as beneficial as in water warmup? Or at least have some benefit?

I am a very comfortable and reasonably strong swimmer... and I need to get over that initial shock of being in the water too. It's a jolt to your system, no matter how many times you do it. If I can't warm up, I make sure I splash water on my face, dunk my head if possible, do jumping jacks or arm circles for a few minutes to get the heart rate up and arms loose.

Despite doing it several times a week, I still hate the feeling of first jumping in the pool at masters classes. Sucks every time. I would never start a 1 or 2k TT that way in practice... why do it at a race?

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Long Chile was a silly place.

Not arguing but expanding on your comments.

I know IM a few years ago set out to do an swim safe program that was to include swim warm ups (when available). Of course I guess it's easy to add the * (when available) as the acceptable out for not including it. I'm not sure if you are a race organization why you wouldn't have an swim area/time for any race you put on. Seems to be unacceptable to have the reason "well it's a long day anyways" as your justification for not doing it.

But I'm not a RD, nor want to be one. They have the toughest job, I just don't understand why a RD wouldn't want to include a swim warm up area. Just seems to be a tone deaf move at this point in the swim death issues.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I did a jumping start (1 by 1) into a nice warm pool and it was a shock to me.

200y swim to swim start area seems awesome. Maybe a little platform out there to stand on waiting for your turn to go. What is the tech challenge of this.. no way to read chip underwater, so would need someone punching your hat# in a computer from a boat?

N

What CLM said. If it was like Chatt Waterfront, 2 things:
1. No warm-up. Time-trial start, get in and go.

2. Not only that, when I got in at the dock, the volunteer guys on the dock helping people get in were yelling "get in! get in!! GO! GO! Go!" to keep the line moving. So, I felt totally rushed. Not a second to do a quick face in the water, dunk my head to get myself mentally situated before going. Nada. I hated that.

Not sure if this was the situation there.

Also, Oceanside 70.3 has you swim out some yards to the start line which is helpful there in what is typically cold water. St. Croix 70.3 you have to swim to the start beach. Even that little bit really helps.

I think there is a way to read chips under water. A couple years ago when a guy decided to call it quits 1/2 way th ought the swim at AG nationals they said they knew he go into the water because of a mat in the water.

There would be no tech issue. Just have athletes pass over the timing mat on their way to the swim warm up, and you've got them all registered.

I think the main issue is that, for most, after doing a swim warm up they want to spend at least 5-10 mins getting their HRs down before the start of the race. I like to have at least 10 mins. So to make this work and for people to be 'happy' about it you really need:

- guide athletes over a timing mat
- force them to swim 200 yards (out and back) to the starting corral
- have enough space for waves to wait there for 10 mins each before getting back in to the water to start the race

All in all, logistically very hard, unless you have ample beach space and even then you will get some weaker swimmers complaining bitterly that you are forcing them to get in the water earlier than they want to (even though it's for their own good).

I think the time trial start is horrible. It is rushed, people are sitting around for hours, you can't go do a warm up job because you have to be in line. Wave group starts allow you to know when your time is, get in a few minutes early....even 3 minutes allows you to acclimate to the water which may help some people out. I am sure the time trial method is easier for the company putting on the race though.

Yes and no. I don't think most people are not warming up at all, it's more about the swim warmup and getting your face in the water.

I did a sprint Tri this weekend, water temp was low 60s, I've done over 60 tris maybe over 70 at this point and it was still a shock to my system when I got in the water and my face hit it. It took a good 200 yards for my breathing to be less restrictive. During the swim I was fine but probably wouldn't have been as fine without the warmup. However on the beach/shallow water you had a bunch of people who didn't want to get in because of the water temp, which is the exact opposite of what you want.

Not saying this was the case this past weekend for the 70.3, but its one of the big reasons a lot of people have been advocating for a swim warmup at all races.

I agree - there are many reasons I don't like time trial starts, not least you are not 'racing' people in your age group, which is what I enjoy doing most.

No, they setup a timing loop just prior to the swim entrance. Loops could be setup over the water in the air and read a chip that passes under it on top of the water, but not sure what that would accomplish and it would be an expensive hassle to do...

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Tony
http://www.triathleteguru.com

I do all of my early season races with zero swim warmups. I jog and do other things to stay warm and get my heart rate up. Have never had an issue
do the swim with this process.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Not to play devil's advocate, and pardon my ignorance if I'm asking the obvious, but aside discomfort, does anyone know what the actual cause of death is in such instances? What process actually takes place in the human body after it is thrown in cold water, that indeed causes it to collapse? And what would a "warm up" (or any other procedure) actually be doing to prevent that process?

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

Well SIPE is often cited, and I think was the subject of the USAT study. But while I know everyone is different, this water was in no way cold. Nearly 74 degrees, much warmer than the air. I've done Alcatraz 5x and swim in Southern California, and I know cold. This was not it. We are speculating anyway but I'd be surprised if this were related to a cold water issue

I agree, it was definitely rushed and would have preferred to have the ability to get in a few minutes early to acclimate. Not having a chance to at least get my cap/goggles wet before being pushed into the water would have been nice too.

The factors that are mentioned as contributing to SIPE are really common I would say among race participants. Should we not be hearing more about others racers having SIPE without total collapse? (and being able to get assistance, stop before the tipping point, etc...) But then again, how is a warm up going to prevent the issue? If it was going to happen, would it not take place anyway? Or maybe make SIPE even more likely since extremeties would get more time cooling down before the burst of more intense physical exertion?

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

Humans have what is called the mammalian reflex to cold water against the face (specifically the face). It is present in water temps up to about 69 degrees but the reflex is more severe the colder the water gets. The reflex will slow HR in humans between 10-25% when cold water hits the face. This accounts for our inability to breathe normally AND the inability to get necessary oxygen under stress of a race start without prior exposure. Imagine your HR slowing by 25% right when you need oxygen. You may see a 50% drop. Little wonder we may panic and gasp.


SOLUTION:


Just dunking your limbs will no stop the reflex. You have to submerge your face in a warm up if possible. At a minimum, throw cold water on it for a few minutes to stop the slowing of the heart. I suggest you get on the race course where possible, get your face in the water until this reaction is gone. Once it is gone start swimming and use some brisk efforts to raise your HR. Get cold water in your wettie suit so that your body can warm it up when you get out pre-race, then exit the water and wait. Five minutes is enough time on shore to warm the water in your suit, preserve core temps and still over come the reflex. On swim start you will have no or lesser reflex issues. Without the reflex you will be okay missing a breath or two early in the swim without panic attack.


Sounds like the death was not due to the reflux as the water was relatively warm.

The problem is we all start speculating as to causes, so we don't really know what to do to prevent it. There are what 4 or 5 various Alcatraz races every year plus numerous other bay swims, all with jumps into very cold water and very few incidents like this. One person died at the Alcatraz challenge a couple years back but percentage wise it's very low. So maybe cold water has less to do with it?, and it's just personal health issues?

I'm under the same impression as ChrisM. Kevin, the way you put it makes it sound like what the first human making it to Mars will have to go through during landing. I have been jumping in cold water and dashing for a long time. There needs to be way more to it than just that reflex. I get the disconfort part and even some symptoms of SIPE. But that is different than a body totally collapsing. If all my body's reflexes were that extreme I would be dead by now, times a hundred.

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

This sucks. Same thing happened 3 years ago at IMKY which is a single file jump off the dock no warm up start. They pulled a guy out right in front of us before we got in the water. He passed away. He could not have gotten more than 40 yards. The water was warm, no wetsuits allowed. I started that swim very slowly.
I always do a warmup if possible before all races. That helps me avoid that whole panic/hyperventilating feeling that sometimes I experience. One possible solution, have the start line/timing sensor 40 yards from where you jump in suspended over the water. Maybe even showers that you walk thru (if desired) before the start. I think just being wet would help.

I agree with you and ChrisM. I was just answering the question you posed about getting breathless at first exposure, not death :-)

I lifeguarded beaches in Santa Barbara County for seven years and ran into water with purpose down to 54 degrees and am still alive.

I am guessing with swim deaths at races there may be a number of underlying physical issues.

On a side note, I have had SIPE and was coughing up pink phlegm a couple times, but never from racing or at work. It was a result of swimming 25,000 to 30,000 thousand yards a week for weeks on end during training with masters squads in a pool that was 76 degrees. My two cents, two different subjects.

The water temp at my first triathlon was around 60 and the RD told everyone he wouldn't start the race until we had dunked our faces. People laughed at him but he sat their on the beach with his microphone waiting (Kenny at 3D). I raced in another one of their events a month or so later and the water was slightly warmer and he didn't have us dunk our heads. I should have learned from my first event and done so anyways. I had a panic attack in the water and almost quit. I even held onto the jet ski for awhile. After that I came home and did some research and learned about the mammalian reflex and now try to get in and get my head wet for every race I can. My big race for the year is Louisville (my first) and I'm nervous about not being able to warm up.

Thank you, Kevin. And I'm sorry if I sounded acusative. It seems like we are all here for similar reasons and maybe one way to summarize it would be: fear of death. I want to play. I want to be outdoors and fall in love with it every spring. I could even settle to dying that way. But not whenever it hits me just because it is a Saturday the 14th. I want my kids to have a dad. Why does this happen to some people? And how can we minimize the chances of it happening to us? If the medical doctors can't determine it, maybe we are the next ones in line better positioned to figure it out.

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

If you are nervous at louisville, jump off the left (most downstream) dock and head towards the island or even a bit downstream to tread water and/or warm up before joining the crowd. You'll be fine!

No problem at all, pally. I could write an entire article on sports, our fitness, health and death.


Combined they aren't linear. We do have guideposts but we are still learning. I have a hell of a story from over the course of the last year to share someday.


Which is to say I completely empathize with your comments. One thing for sure (my view), eating right, excercising and limiting alcohol work most of the time. Have fun with it!


Here's a the best blog on the planet ... it may keep you busy for weeks ===>


http://www.athletesheart.org/



Coach KP

From the studies/articles I've read on sudden death with tri's, it's usually due to cardiac and not pulmonary causes. Here's a recent expert's blog entry: http://www.athletesheart.org/...riathlon-fatalities/

Kevin P talks about the vasovagal response, which can cause syncope (passing out) and/or arrhythmias. Also, endurance athletes are more likely to have arrhythmia (hypertrophy of the heart, low resting heart rate or what ever reason). I suspect this is a more likely cause. Many things can cause this besides cold water like holding your breath, swallowing water, bearing down, etc.

Odd are still fairly low with 1/70000 participants. This reminds me a little bit of the high school kids who suddenly dies during a basketball game due to undiagnosed cardiac issues. There are some people who think high school athletes should get cardiac exam, but literature doesn't support it (low yield, very costly for something fairly rare, etc.). However, if I had family history of cardiac issues, it might be worth seeing a cardiologist.

http://www.timesfreepress.com/news/local/story/2016/may/24/brother-teachers-remember-mwho-died-ironmchat/367222/




Very interesting to find out the athlete was just that, a superb athlete.

Ironic that he's a certified first responder, life guard and scuba diver.

Then that is perfect for me. Because every race, my HR is very high before I even toe the line. Resting is low 50s. Before the race 100-110. The excitement and adrenaline is pegged.

This isn't meant to be harsh or mean to you, but NO, a bunch of internet posters, most with little to no medical background, speculating about an athlete's cause of death, are in no way shape or form qualified or positioned to figure it out. Opinions on shoes, bikes, power meters, training, etc. Sure. Even that is questionable here sometimes. We can share with each other techniques or things that make the swim start more comfortable for one another which may or may not work. We could be part of a research study of athletes in triathlons that maybe assist doctors in figure out what triggers these deaths, which may not be one single thing.

I agree though about this. This is the answers we're looking for

Here's my recommendation for no in water warm-up races. Bring a gallon of ice water with you to the race. Suit up, then dump the water over your head and inside your suit. Add some jumping jacks and arm rotations. I'm not kidding. I did this with race supplied water last year and I swear it helped ease that initial shock of hitting the water, b/c I was already wet. Just don't count on the race site having enough water for everyone to do this.

Side note - how hard is it to set up a water recirculation sprinkler system for athletes to pass through at swim start? I've seen them at some swim exits...

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

I was thinking something similar; a big metal trough filled with ice water near the swim start so that swimmers could dunk their heads into before the swim.

"The water temp at my first triathlon was around 60 and the RD told everyone he wouldn't start the race until we had dunked our faces. People laughed at him but he sat their on the beach with his microphone waiting (Kenny at 3D)"

brilliant. good for kenny.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

"I do all of my early season races with zero swim warmups. I jog and do other things to stay warm and get my heart rate up. Have never had an issue"

most everyone who's ever died in the swim in a triathlon could have written exactly what you just wrote.

there is really no good reason to argue against an in-water warm-up. that there are workarounds in lieu of a warm-up, that's fine, but you can't come back from the dead and testify about how you wish you'd have done things differently.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

So sad that we lost a fellow triathlete this way. I'd say "Rest in Peace", but as much as his family stated how he loved being active, "Rest" just doesn't seem appropriate. I'll just leave it at "Peace".

I sat next to Gene on the bus to the swim start. He saw my girlfriend's Oak Barrel Half Marathon shirt and since he had done it back in April, we struck up a conversation. I did Chattanooga last year so he was asking me what to expect. He seemed to be a very personable and genuine guy.

We shook hands and parted ways when we got off the bus, he to the bathroom line and me to go join my tri team.

THAT is the BEST blog on the planet for this stuff.

I personally think Sipe is overblown. the sad reality is that many of these situations are likely undiagnosed heart ailments.(how many people go back and read a few months later what the cause of death was in these?) http://www.mensjournal.com/...letes-dying-20121203

There are many ailments that the first sign of a problem, is well, death. I was mis-diagnosed with a cardiac Ailment, hypertrophic cardiomyopathy, in 2012. I went to the doctor to get the slap on the back that all was ok. you know, "consult with your physician before participating in a strenuous exercise program." I had ZERO symptoms.

Long Story short, it took me a year, three specialists, 3 cardiac MRIs & a committment to "detrain" to figure it out. One of the catalysts to get checked out was Chris Gleason's death in the 2011? philly Mary. Guy was in excellent shape, died in mile 26 after throwing down a 10 o'something in LP that year. His wife never had a full blown autopsy done on him. His cause of death was listed as "unknown Cardiomyopathy"

For me, this was a long, arduous, emotional journey. I reached out to Dr Larry Creswell who writes the blog, and he was my guide throughout my journey. Generous guy who truly loves what he does. As an aside, he is on the Board of directors for the Ironheart foundation (which also helped me) and is the Go to guy for the USAT cardiac studies.

If you're up to it, visit (http://www.ironheartfoundation.org/...line-to-finish-line/) and donate $10 to see their movie when it releases later this year. VERY worthy cause for our sport!

just a side note...Larry Creswell used to post on the USMS forums. There was a thread on heart, swimming and nutrition issues, Larry offered some opinions, and one of the posters said something like "I manage a GNC, who the hell are you?" Larry didn't reply but someone looked it up and was like Johns Hopkins med school, residency Washington University, chief surgical resident, surgical fellowship in cardiothoracics, 11 publications in JAMA. Kind of like the classic Gary Hall Sr. post here...

You were not harsh. You were realistic. And I appreciate the approach. I'm under a different impression than you though. My professional background is not medical. I have however professional experience using data to revise concepts/models describing different types of systems. One aspect of it is the educational background with respect to the concepts/models that describe the target system. But that alone does not always suffice when looking for ways to refine it. Particualrly when you need to make use of statical data to gather more insight about the target system. Medical doctors are at a privileged position, I don't deny that. But that fact does not take us all out of the equation automatically. We not only have a lot of insight on the data that is available, our asses are on the line. We have a very fundamental interest on figuring this out and that sometimes trumps any time you may have spent flipping through bibliographic references and specialized practice. You continued on in your post to acknowledge the questions I asked as being relevant. A lot of times it is more about asking the right questions than having a lot of knowledge. Plus, if I die at a swim start and then after that you all figure out here on ST that all we need to do is to maintain salt intake level stable in the days leading to the race, then you will feel really sorry. :-)

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

After my previous post I read the news article. There I found out is not impossible for an individual to be simultaneously over educated and under prepared, even doctors. Dr. Harris seems to be as clueless as any random poster here:

"Cardiologist Dr. Kevin Harris also studied the issue and told Scientific American there are several reasons why this might be the case. The swimming portion is the first leg of the event, and the athletes' adrenaline is pumping hard. Often, the athletes competing in triathlons are stronger runners and bikers than they are swimmers — though Basir insists that wasn't the case with his brother."

Started my own search: http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Edema_SIPE__45.html

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

I totally agree in cold water swims. At Oceanside, where you can only get in when the prior AG gun goes off, I walk down the ramp as deep as they'll let me prior to that gun, usually thigh deep, and crouch down and get as much water on my face and in my wetsuit. Do that for 3 minutes, and when they finally let us in I've never felt cold or had that reaction. I think it's very important. But not always possible (Alcatraz)

this is not to be underestimated... I think that Gleason had an adrenaline rush as he approached the finish of the philly marathon, PR, beating his bestie and coach... Adrenaline pushes an already pushed system...

Did Ben Collins beat us to the punch?

http://bencollins.org/blog/2013/06/mountain-climbers-navy-seals-and-overhydrated-triathletes

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

News reporting that preliminary autopsy results indicate that the athlete suffered a heart attack. No known prior cardiac issues per family members. Very sad.

I think there is too much thought being put into this. I've done many cold open water swims with and without a wetsuit since I was a young teenager. While I'm sure we can identify the exact medical cause, I don't think we can prevent the deaths that we have seen.

1. Water is inherently dangerous. More people die drowning each year than many other reasons.
2. A lot of people are apprehensive about open water swimming, period. Swimming in open water is the biggest barrier of entry for most would be triathletes. If you haven't gotten over this completely by the time you jump into the water in your first or continue to suffer this with every subsequent race, you are in a higher risk group period. This apprehension causes increased heart rate, panic and irregular breathing. When combined with the inherent danger of open water swimming with a lot of people its not surprise people are getting pulled out of the water or dying. I'm surprised more people aren't pulled from the water dead or unconscious.
3. Body defects that may prove fatal when combined with the excitement/apprehension and crowded water just cannot be predicted. By the time most race, they have pushed their bodies to limits they have never reached and higher limits than most humans. Its like when I 90 year old person dies of pneumonia. No, they died of old age.
4. Cold water, or cold weather for that matter has uncontrollable affects on humans. Cold weather open water swimmers are taught really quick you need to enter that water with lungs full of air because the shock (often caused by cold water exposure on the face) will cause the rib and chest muscles to constrict inhibiting ones ability to breath in air for up to 30 seconds. This can create quite a problem for somebody unprepared for that and can easily lead to panic and a downward spiral from there. Anybody who swims in cold water regularly, works in cold water (master divers and SEALS) are taught this and prepare accordingly. Is it no surprise that somebody who has never done a triathlon, is excited about their first race, but apprehensive about open water swimming, getting surprised by cold water shock and the inability to breath for 30 seconds bing at high risk of dying in the chaotic human pool that is a triathlon start? I don't think so.

To me, I don't think the statistics aren't that bad considering the number of participants each year. Sensational? Yes. I don't know if all the research or even staggered starts will prevent deaths. Maybe reduce them? But to what level, the numbers are already very low.

With that said, I do think that starting in the water (as much as that sucks) could help identify people who are going to have a problem and might make such people aware of any problem they may face before it is too late. But will pride let them sit one out?

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

As an ER doc, you have never had an "issue" until you HAVE and then you may be dead..

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Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022

Definitely sad, didn't hear about it until we got back to the hotel room later.

There wasn't any warm up, pros got in for a few minutes, but everyone else was hop in and go. I thought the water temp was fine, especially with wetsuit, didn't get the constricted chest feeling like you do in cold water. It was a violent first 300-400 yards like usual, but relatively uneventful and lots of room after that headed back downstream. I'd imagine it happened at the beginning?

Very sad, such a great event.

Just as an aside, on a FB page for the race I was frankly shocked at the number of folks that were either (1) praying hard for a wetsuit legal race no matter what the water/air temps were; or (2) dreading a wetsuit swim due to panic.

I checked the race's page at 4 am and it said wetsuit legal, and someone commented "risk a wetsuit induced panic or a brisk swim???"

This for what has to be the calmest, mildest swim in any race I've ever done, flatwater no surf no wind swim in a really really wide area. ANd with a current to boot. I know we talk about how unprepared people can be, but this was pretty shocking

Not entirely shocked, always panicked people over wetsuits/weather, first timers or worry warts.

Did anybody notice the POLL on the left hand side of this article? It is asking if Ironman races are dangerous. 20% are saying yes it is. Do you think this will effect next years race?

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http://www.sfuelsgolonger.com

Not disagreeing with these points, but it is notable how often the victims are experienced swimmers (in this case, a lifeguard and scuba diver) and endurance athletes. Not people you would expect to panic in the froth or have general health issues. And here the water was pretty warm.

I've known many experienced triathletes whom dread the swim. Dread it more with a wetsuit.

Water apprehension is a powerful thing.

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"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden

I wonder if there is a statistical relationship between deaths/emergencies/DNF in the swim and whether or not the race allowed a swim warm-up?

no doubt. For some triathletes, I think it's because swimming is their weakest leg and often they have not trained enough in that leg or just trained less for that leg. Others certainly have issues with open water. Some get nervous about the swim scrum and all the contact during swimming. The tightness of the wetsuit bothers some as well. The point being, warmup or no, the swim leg causes much anxiety in many triathletes.

I just raced Barcelona 70.3 last weekend water temperature was 15c or 59f... It was a rolling start seed by times: 25 mins and less, 30 mins and less...and so on.

They allowed athletes to swim in the Ocean prior to the start until 10 mins Male Pro start at 7:00, Female Pro 7:01, and age group rolling start 7:05...

Personally, I went for a light jog of 5-10 mins around 40 mins prior to the start with a 1-2 mins at Race Pace. 15 mins prior to the swim start I went close to
the Ocean to put some water on my face, neck and feet. It worked well for me.

I have raced different races where you need to swim 100-200y to the starting line. St-Croix 70.3 you have to swim to the island but water temp is 80's (Beach Start), Utah 70.3 they make us
swim 100-150y to the starting buoys where water temps are usually high 50's. So you have no choice to swim to the starting line usually they allow 2 mins to get there. Kayaks are making
sure nobody jumps starts. The waves are age-groups ones and not a rolling start.

I guess a mix of forcing people to swim 100-150y and rolling start could be a solution to ensure some kind of warm-up, but nothing that would make us staying in the water more than 30sec to 1 min without moving.

I live in Tampa, FL so cold water swims are not my norm. My 2nd IM was IMCDA 2010 and I had done numerous races prior to that (including Boise 70.3) but I had a full-on panic attack at Coeur d'Alene. It's the only race I've ever been in that I thought the possibility of dying was real. I finally flagged down a kayak and hung on until my heart quit racing. It was only after that race that I learned about the reflex and need to get my face wet. Fast forward to Jun 2015 when I raced long course in 57 degree water. We had an in-water start and I kept dunking my head again and again before the gun and had no problems. I certainly will never dismiss the need for getting the face wet before starting a cold water swim.

Given the warm water at Chattanooga it probably wasn't the cause of this fatality, but any race with cold water should seriously consider the need for a warm-up area or an in-water start.

"I wonder if there is a statistical relationship between deaths/emergencies/DNF in the swim and whether or not the race allowed a swim warm-up?"

a lot of this stuff is known, or at least you can know if these variables are statistically relevant. there are experts, many of them have been quoted here, and are forum members. we've covered this extensively. here are a number of the articles i've written on this site, not just my own view but investigation and coverage. but about the warmup, i've been calling for this since my first article on the subject, just below, written in 2001:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._miscellany_251.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._open_water_450.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ath_author_2442.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Triathlon_2986.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._Nationals_2998.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...Swim_Alive_3374.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/..._the_Water_3378.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...CD_in_Tri__3382.html
http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ou_to_Move_3437.html

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

One thing that is perplexing is that there are very few "near deaths" in our sport, swim or otherwise. I can't recall any instances where someone was pulled from the water and resuscitated successfully. And in some cases, the athlete has received very prompt attention.

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Coach at KonaCoach Multisport

The latest news reporting says that while being a great athlete he had medical issues related to high blood pressure and high cholesterol. He was taking medication and had expressed to his wife that he was concerned about the swim. It was his first race of that length. So even though he was a diver, he was concerned about a 1.2 mile swim.

Thank you. Those are great resources. I had a crappy swim in NOLA, my first HIM and my first triathlon in more than 20 years. I had all of the hyperventilation, racing heart, panic, etc. that has been described all over the place. I am generally a very even-keeled guy that little phases, so I was pretty surprised during the swim to be feeling the panic in the NOLA water. I attributed it solely to the chop and rough conditions. I was totally unaware of bradycardia and vasoconstriction reflexes until reading through some of the threads here after NOLA. Now, I know that this is what stunned me, and the chop only added to my misery.

not having ever done any scuba diving does that translate at all over to any sort of endurance swimming? I know it translates to not fearing water. Same with the lifeguard. Lifeguards I know go through training but does a typical lifeguard at a pool have the training for longer swims?

EXACTLY me too. I, as well, blamed the wind and waves for it all (as I was taking in some deep breaths of water). But I also will say that once I held onto the kayak...and then the wall, and got my panic down I was able to continue and move along. Once at the first turn buoy all was a lot better since I had calmed down... Didn't think of the cold water shock, just the waves and chop, but once my panic subsided, I was good for the rest of the swim. Hmmm...

I did not notice any crossover in the past. Not much endurance involved in diving really. I was always tired and hungry after a dive but i think that has more to do with the pressure, oxygen change, and body temp regulation.

I will be taking part in my first triathlon in June which includes a swim. (1st tri last year, the swim was cancelled). I feel very comfortable diving but have recently been wondering about how I will feel in the swim portion of my up and coming events. I've done a few open water swims in very calm water, never worn a wetsuit for a swim. Not sure if my dount is based on everything I have read or if I will genuinely feel uncomfortable when the time comes. Guess I will have to wait and see.

The swim requirements for OW dive training are a joke IMO. The requirements are:

• Swim 200 metres/yards (or 300 metres/yards in mask, fins and snorkel). There is no time limit for this, and you may use any swimming strokes you want.
• Float and tread water for 10 minutes, again using any methods you want.

Go on a typical dive boat and you will see the most UN in shape people ever. It's really frightening. So simply being certified doesn't say anything about swimming ability

As a diver, triathlete, and ER physician I don't see much correlation between diving and open water swimming (except for the wetsuit and open water). Like ChrisM, I have seen the most unhealthy and overweight looking people on a dive boat.

Scuba diving is all about conserving your energy (and thus, your air supply).

I also don't think we can attribute most swim deaths in triathlon to SIPE. I agree that there must be underlying pathology that contributes to these deaths on the swim, but I think to say that many of these are purely myocardial infarctions is assuming too much. If it was simply coronary disease I think we would see more deaths on the bike and run. Perhaps, it is just because the swim is the first leg of the race that triggers the cardiac event or there is something about the swim itself that provokes an underlying condition.

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Powered by Dalzell Coaching

Thanks for compiling the list of articles, Dan. Good reading.

.

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Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart

Thinking about the numbers....

I'm aware of 109 triathlon (not other forms of multi-sport) fatalities in individual (not relay) participants since 1985 in the USA.

Over that same period, I'm aware of 13 additional participants who survived an episode of sudden cardiac arrest (SCA), including some notable swim rescues in the past couple seasons.

The survival rate for SCA at a triathlon is obviously low....but the survival rate for out-of-hospital SCA is low in any setting. At long distance running races, the survival rate is ~40%....but of course those races don't have the special challenges of water rescue.

Like you say, we can often learn a lot from "near misses." I'm hopeful that we can study what happened in this group of SCA survivors and learn things like: relevant past medical history, details of the rescue/initial treatment at the scene, and any new cardiac diagnoses and their treatment.

.

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Larry Creswell
http://www.athletesheart.org, @athletesheart

I had an athlete pulled with pulmonary edema. Not sure what qualifies as near death.

As Larry mentioned water rescues are a big complicating factor.

If you pass out from laryngospasm on land, you will probably be OK. If you do the same in the water, probably not. Same for heart issues, if you lose consciousness face down in the water, much worse than on land.

Though you might also say that you rarely hear of someone losing consciousness during the run portion due to cardiac issues, so maybe it's something else about swimming.

There is ZERO crossover from your average SCUBA class and OW swimming. I wouldn't even give you "not fearing water" based on the number of panicking SCUBA divers I rescued back in the day.

A pool LG... probably not a lot of crossover, but they typically come from a swim background and have to pass a more rigerous swim than the joke that SCUBA classes require.

Ocean Lifeguards? IME, they are fine. Varies dept to dept, but most do something on the order of a 1-2000 yard OW swim and have a reasonably fast time requirement. The logic being that to be an effective rescuer, you have to be able to actually get to the rescuee in time and said victim may be hundreds of yards or more off the beach, at times through rough conditions.. Pool guards dont have this issue.

pool guard only needs to do 300yd to pass the test... 100 yd front crawl, 100 breast, 100 free , and not that fast. open water guards for ocean have stricter standards, basic is 500m in 10 minutes then only top 10% time finishers are selected.

I was one of the first to voice my concern of no swim warm up at Florida. 70.3 last year. This year they had a pool open at the park to use in the morning and you could do a short warm up before your wave start. 100 percent better. For me I need to get my face in the water and stroke a little. Nothing on land helps with swim start

After researching for a few days, I think I have learned a few things. Instead of a long post, I'm only sharing key points and references here. It goes without saying, I would be more than interested in any critical feedback.


Key points:


1) The cause of death is not fundamentally a "need to warm up" or SIPE.
2) The reason is a psychosomatic mechanism that eventually leads to fatality during stressful moments or developments.
3) Social isolation: There are several reasons that lead us to first start in running/cycling, among them is that we feel isolated. It is something that may not even be our fault or associated with a personal decision. The main point is that it is something common among endurance athletes. And let's be honest, it does not really get any better after you join a tri club.
4) Self-inflicted mental/physical stress: We all have been asked "why do you do triathlons?", "do you get a prize?", "do you win races?", "if it is such a personal/financial investment, what is the reward?" We need to accept what those questions contain with a bit more care. There is something to them that is realistic and basic. There is something that individually justifies what we do, yes, but yet, it does inflict a lot on us mentally, physically, and socially.
5) Long term development/build-up leading to a moment of self-perceived high stress: That would be one way to describe a 16-week training plan and the start of the event. Isn't it?
6) Cognitive belief that death is near is not sufficient, nor necessary: It happens beyond our control. Insects, fish, mammals, all demonstrate similar mechanisms. None know from fact they will die, by definition. When a race starts, rationally, we know we will not necessarily go through a painful process that will invariably lead to death. It is not about what we think.


We die because we scare ourselves to death. The wetsuit, the open water, the crowd, the physical contact, the mammalian reflex, the stress of training and looming "judgement day", each one by itself is not necessarily capable of triggering a sudden death. But together they can. And do, for some of us.


How can we minimize the chances of it happening to us?


References:


a) Influence of social isolation: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/...239448?dopt=Abstract
b) Influence of self-perceived psychological stress: http://www.ajconline.org/...(91)90189-R/abstract
c) Cerebral cortical hyperactivation in response to mental stress: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC27794/
d) Influence of psychological stress on timing of death: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC61045/
e) Death of former Enron CEO, Kenneth Lay, could have been the result of fear of a looming prison sentence according to Dr. Samuels: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_A._Samuels

Even worse in some respects - you're warming up the body further, only to jump into cold water, so the 'shock' of temperature differential is even greater.

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29 years and counting

Please take ten minutes to read this:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnish_sauna

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After millions of years of selective breeding, here we are!

Granted. But how many habitual Sauna users are doing Triathlons?

We once went on a run in late October which involved jumping into a river at various points. After about 25 min running we do the first jump in. I swear I haven't panicked like that once in a tri; I could hardly breathe. It got easier the more we did it... a bit like saunas :)

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29 years and counting

Not that many I suppose. But I think we are taking different approaches to this. Here is one way to look at this: imagine we are actually trying to commit suicide by triggering that mechanism. How can we be most effective?

I think the Finnish have proven with a very large data set that getting your body/core overheated and immediately jumping into a freezing lake (literally), is not going to be a very effective suicide method.

On the other hand, knowing that the brain makes use of the heart to deliver the fatal blow, we would want to make our heart as STRONG as possible before our suicide attempt, so the brain can most effectively do its job. Considering how strong our endurance athletes' hearts are, it would not be surprising to find pulmonary edema after the fact.

Think the brain takes over and from then on it is its job to kill the body. Whatever triggers that in the brain is what one would want to do in such a suicide attempt. And I'm arguing that Finnish sauna/freezing bath, habitual or not, cannot be an effective way to trigger it. That's because I believe the Finish would have found evidence of that by now.

We die because we scare ourselves to death. The wetsuit, the open water, the crowd, the physical contact, the mammalian reflex, the stress of training and looming "judgement day", each one by itself is not necessarily capable of triggering a sudden death. But together they can. And do, for some of us.



So dead on. To coin a phrase.