I have a set of tubulars that I taped two years ago. No issues and still no budging. Supposedly, tape has higher rolling resistance to glue, but is easy and quick.

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Ryan
Practical Coaching

How fast do you want to go?

As fast as possible with the least amount of energy?

As mentioned, the current thinking is that the tape has higher rolling resistance.

I would certainly glue any new tires, but it's up to you whether or not to pull off the currently taped tire and re-glue it.

.

Yes. so I guess my question is, is the difference between the two noteworthy?

I guess I could just use tubular tape and save the energy difference by drafting off someone in my next Ironman race

AFM tested the difference and it was pretty noteworthy. Check out his data for specifics.

If I had spent $2K+ on wheels and tires (Oh crxp, I have) I would also be doing everything I could to save every watt possible.

2 watts here, 3 watts there...pretty soon you're up to 10 watts and that's significant.

Drafting is another option made more difficult by outlawing mirrors :)

When I first got my tubular wheels, the bike shop used tape to set them up. Never again. The effort to remove the tape from the wheels is not worth it.

great, thanks for the responses. I was hoping to add some drama to my morning with the drafting comment -- no such luck.

x2 tape pain in the axx

True, but if you can get your hands on Tufo Rim Cleaner, it becomes a *lot* easier.

What on Earth do you guys use for glue if you think Tufo tape is more of a mess than glue??

I have used tape a couple times out of curiousity and found it cleans up way, way easier than Mastik One. Mastik One takes at least 5x longer to clean off the rim. Goo Gone, Acetone, rounded butter knife/scraper and a healthy dose of foul language is my removal method if the glue is coming all the way off.

Why are you scraping the glue off the rim?

After removing a tire, there is typically a fairly uniform layer of glue left behind. Way easier to glue a tire to a used rim than a new one.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Notice the "if" the glue is coming off. It should be done after a few sets of tires as the layers of glue are no longer very uniform.

agreed, there's no need to clean a rim back down to the metal, the new glue "wakes up" the old stuff with the solvent.

I have had to remove tape that was glued onto the rim for cyclocross, it required floor adhesive stripper over multiple days with heavy rubber gloves and a paintbrush. Throwing the wheels over the back fence is also an option.

In terms of the op's question i'd just leave the tape and not fret over it and when the tire goes bad remove the tape. It will be stuck to your existing rim cement and may come off in chunks, so keep a list of curse words handy

As an aside, if i were in a race and was offered neutral support like this, I'd just mount the spare tire without any glue, blow it up nice and hard and go. People who train on tubulars do this all the time, you just can't bomb the turns, but otherwise the tire stays put. Using a spare with leftover glue on it is even better.

I'd be hesitant to mount a spare that had no glue, meaning it also should be easily mountable. After that, no hard corners or high speed descents.

I recently changed a flat tubular out on a training ride. The tire got a slash in the sidewall, but it was old and ready to be replaced anyways.

My spare used to be a race tire that still has glue on the base tape. I haven't bothered to remove it after the roadside swap and will only do it because I want a wider tire on the back rim, not because I am concerned about adhesion. It is amazing how strong the bond is even with a dry layer of glue on the tire and the rim.

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

when i get home, i just put the spare back under the saddle and glue on a fresh tire. My present spare is a decent gatorskin with some sealant, it's still got a lot of life. I would not hesitate to ride home on a tire without glue, using common sense.

Training on tubulars is great, i'm surprised I did not discover it earlier in life

Why would you have to remove the tape in the first place (any more than glue)?

Regarding the rolling remember that the AFM's comparison of 2-3w is against meticulously glued tube. When it comes to typical light gluing, you'd be better of using tape.

I thought I would jump in here to say that for removing old mastic from rims, Effetto Mariposa makes a great mastic remover called Carogna Remover. You simply apply it to the mess on your rims, let it sit 2-24 hours and then....voila. Here are a few details.

• Carogna Remover, thanks to its high viscosity, can be spread on the rim gluing surface with a brush;
• Once you've covered all the old mastic with Remover, hang the wheel somewhere and allow the Remover time to work;
• Check the wheel from time to time (it can take between 2 to 24 hours, depending on how old the mastic traces are), trying to scrape the mastic away using a plastic tire lever or an old rag:
• When the old mastic is "cooked", Carogna Remover will have it softened and turned it into gel: it will be easy to remove with a cloth or with a plastic tire lever.

Considering it doesn't smell bad and isn't toxic nor dangerous, the additional time you have to wait compared to Acetone shouldn't be a problem. The final result will also be better, a the rim will look like new.

For tape fans, considering checking out Effetto Mariposa's new Carogna tubular gluing tape. Trying to get Dan and Herbert to check it out ; )
Many cheers,
Suzette

I've used both glue [continental] and tape [tufo], I'm a tape man moving forward.
Easier to install, easier to change a tire, less clean-up and fumes; I can live with a marginally higher Crr.

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res, non verba

Do you have any numbers on the Crr vs glue?

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/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/

Hi from Effetto Mariposa here in Switzerland!
We've just scheduled a full comparative Crr test of our Carogna and other tapes/mastics.
We'll use the same (carbon) rim and the same brand/model/size tubular, making all other test parameters equal (inflating pressure, speed, weight etc). Testing will be done at an independent testing facility (Wheel Energy in Finland: http://www.wheelenergy.com/). Results will normally be available before Interbike this year.
_________________________________________
Effetto Mariposa Sagl, Lugano - Cadro, Switzerland

What brand oftape did you use?

Hi effettomariposa,
Could you show me your crr testing result ?

As the gluing tape acts as an additional cushioning element, it affects the rolling resistance of the wheel.
Results we got from the Wheel Energy Laboratory show an higher power absorption - given the same wheel, tubular, inflating pressure, testing machine, load and testing temperature - using Carogna tape (or other competitors' tapes) compared to mastics (any mastic, as differences between mastics are neglectable in terms of rolling resistance).
To talk about numbers:
a Vittoria Triathlon tubular 22 mm absorbs 32,8 W at 40 km/h and 9 bar when glued with mastic, while it absorbs 39,1 W when glued with Carogna tape (same conditions).

It's 6,3 W, a 20% difference that is mantained reducing the inflating pressure.
At 6 bar, the power absorption becomes 37,1 W for mastic, 44,6 W for Carogna, 7,5 W of difference.
Is this an acceptable penalty to pay for convenience of use?
Each one has his/her answer to that, and is obviously correct whatever it is, depending on the specific goals.

Interesting. The newest Jantex tapes are very thin, it would be interesting to see how they fare i.e. would they absorb much wattage? I haven't ever used Tufo tape, but it looks very thick & cushioned, so imagine that's pretty poor Crr wise, and a PITA to install.

I actually use the Jantex Alloy (#76) rim gluing tape on Carbon rims, so far so good and that included Frankfurt at 104 degrees. Interesting that people talk about tape residue; I find that if the tyre is on the rim long enough, the tape comes away still attached to the tyre bed, ideal for use as a spare.

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29 years and counting

I thought we outlawed anyone on ST using tubular tape years ago. If you want to go the same speed on more watts than glue go for it. Otherwise glue them on correctly, multiple layers of glue on both the tube and rim.

Sorry, who is AFM? And have you got a link about that test?
Thanks in advance.

tada!

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Many thanks mate!!! :-)

The most recent test at that link was 7 years ago. There is no standardisation of tyre size, wear and the gluing/taping methods, so direct comparisons are flawed at best for the purpose of this topic.

Or did I miss something?

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29 years and counting

Hey I just posted the requested info, but if you have a link to better info on tubulars I'd be excited to see it.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Sorry, the default setting when in ST mode is often snark!

I cannot find any solid comparative data on this out there, just anecdotal. I do find the Jantex 76 is great on carbon rims though, and is a lot less 'spongy' than it's predecessor.

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29 years and counting

Get the effetto mariposa caragno tape. Faster, easier, cleaner!! I made the switch last year and always glued and won't go back, no mess, no fuss and no waiting for glue to dry to apply layers. So much cleaner and no need for googone. I've stripped many rims down to the carbon and still do but I try to get anyone I've changed out to switch. Once you've tried it you won't go back to mastik again. Definitely need to strip the rim down to a clean surface before applying otherwise it's a pain to remove but if you start with a clean carbon rim it's less work when removing and much easier.

hah no worries, I really would like to see more data on tubies... it's rare. (Especially rare for track tubies... somebody buy a $400 conti olympic II and send it to Tom to test ;) )

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

I would also be very interested in seeing data on thick v thin tapes.

I have some of the (thick / spongey) carogna stuff in the garage but after reading the above results I am wondering if it is worth fitting ... :-(

If the 'thin' Velox 76 is noticeably better and approaching the mastic option than that could be a way to go.

If they are all crap I best learn how to glue ... lol

WD :-)

Glue tape = slow.

Historically for sure, but there hasn't been any comprehensive or rigorous testing in recent years using modern tyres or various tapes. With the growing popularity of clinchers I understand that; however your statement isn't backed up by this type of testing. I doubt you're bothered mind you :)

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29 years and counting

Totally agree. Used Tufo tape once- thick ,messy to remove. Velox/Jantex 76 is thin and strong, used on carbon rims , prestretched tubular can be changed in 2 minutes ( rarely needed - less than once a season)

I did a lot of the original testing on both Tufos and Tufo tape. Just google my name and Tufo and you'll find it. There are parts of the Czech Republic where I wouldn't dare go today. The Tufo tape consistently cost 4+ watts.

There is no reason to believe this has changed with new tapes. If an adhesive is sticky, flexible, or tacky after it is applied and dried, CRR will be bad. And that means just about any tape you might apply -- as well as some glues. There's no getting around that. That's how it was 12 years ago. That's how it is now.

The only way to avoid adhesive loss is to use an adhesive that becomes completely inflexible after curing. Shellac is the only tire adhesive I know that fits the bill. Well-cured Mastik 1 is a close second. Tape, by its nature, will never come close.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

Interesting info thanks :-)

So a picture is starting to build i.e. from tests :

• Carogna = 7.5w per wheel.
• Tufo = 4w per wheel.

Both the above are thicker type tapes.

So the missing link is a value for a thin vellox 76 type of tape.

Once that is known I would be happier making an informed decision i.e. 'Maybe' sacrifice 1 or 2 watts for the ease of using a tape ?

WD :-)

Why give up a few watts when glue is so easy?

I have never used it - it scares me ... lol

WD :-)

I have been using glue for 30 years, so I don't even think about it.

Just to be clear that was for the "tufo extreme," which is thinner. The regular tape was more like 7 watts.

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My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers

It's not that bad. I mount my wheel on a truing stand and use a hobby epoxy brush to apply two thin coats of glue (Mastik 1). The only part that scares me is centering the tire onto the rim, which is done on a final wet coat of glue. I have a little bit of time to wiggle the tire to center it then before the glue dries, but sometimes the tire still doesn't end up dead center.

Has anyone tried this ?



If it has the bennifits of a glue with what appears to be the ease of fitment provided by a tape, could it be a winner ... ? :-)

WD :-)

I've read some stories on WW about tires not holding...but that is a story one can read about just any adhesive. Mastik just seems to have the fewest stories like that.

I can see how it could work... but man I just don't think I'd ever trust it.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

I do sometimes wonder about some of the "wives tales" about 2-3 or even 4 layers of glue necessary to inhibit rolling. A good friend works in materials joining and argued that most glues and epoxies are designed to be used with one application at proper thickness. I have been doing one thick layer of mastik for the last two years for road and cross with no issues at all. Most of the rolled tubulars i have seen were either two year old glue jobs in cross or cases where people did not comprehensively glue the entire rim.

To get proper adhesion on a tubular tire, you need to do a coat on the rim and a coat on the tire. Let it dry overnight. Then apply another coat on the rim and mount the tire.

Agreed with the amount of glue, but I don't think there is any benefit to letting it dry overnight....I wait ~20min after applying the first 2 coats, put a third on the tire to ease centering of the tire and mount it.

Never rolled a tire in 25+ years of riding / racing tubs.

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I find it a bit messy if I don't wait for it to dry before applying the last coat.

I think a lot of it is probably based less on science/data and more on "how you were taught."

The guy that taught me was kind of an old hermit type... leave the tire on the rim to stretch forever, (I think he left some on for so long the tire rotted before he ever glued it ;) ) lots of layers of glue with a day to dry between, etc. That's just how I've always done it since that's how I was taught... (probably from a guy that learned to glue them when the glue itself was not as great as it is now) I also glue track tires so I feel like it's a good practice for that, but others obviously have great success with other practices.

I will say almost all tires I've ever seen rolled (that were glued) involved a starved joint.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

http://weightweenies.starbike.com/...=136694&start=45

Some swear by it, other swear at it.

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res, non verba

I find it hard to believe that any person able to wipe their own bum can find gluing a tub on difficult.
Tyres pretty much centre themselves.

Now taking off the old one and cleaning the rim, that is a pain in the arse.

I have found that one coat on the rim and one coat on the tire doesn't result in complete adhesion.

I do one coat on the rim, two coats on the tyre as it soaks into the base strip.
Then one thin wet coat on the rim let just tack off to fit.

I promise i am not intentionally trying to be frustrating, but i would honestly ask why? What is the mechanism for better adhesion? Likely we are working with some hydrocarbon that is in a fairly viscous solution with their chosen solvent. If you apply a layer, let it sit overnight you have now evaporated the solvent and just have the hydrocarbon/polymer adhesive that is now mostly solid. Applying another layer is essentially the same as applying a new layer on a fresh carbon rim as the adhesive is now dry.

Clearly it can be hard to get a thick layer due to most glues being fairly fluid, thus the reason people often layer. I would think a few layers 20 minutes apart would be ideal as you can start stacking layers but not allowing them to harden. If i was being extra cautious i would follow this protocol, anything else is dubious:

1. Completely sand and acetone/mineral spirits the rim
2. Apply very thick layer to rim
3. Apply layer to base tape on tubular
4. Apply another layer to the rim
5. Mount tire, adjust, inflate partially, readjust, inflate to 120+, roll tire with applied weight for a few minutes, let sit for 24 hours

The above process would require 1-1.25 tubes of mastik per wheel.

It sounds like you are suggesting three coats of glue. Correct?

If one cannot get a thick enough first layer, yes I am. Assuming you don't let it dry for too long. I think the potential error is doing layers with extended drying times. The above method would be completed in 20 minutes.

If you do three coats, it should be good.

I do two on the tyre because it is dead easy to get 100% coverage on the rim, but the way a new base tape soaks up glue, it is hard to ensure total coverage and therefore full bond area.

I think we are essentially in agreement and i was not being clear in my definition of "one coat". I defined one coat as an layer on the tire + layer on tubular base tape + final quick layer again on the rim all done in 20 minutes......which in reality is three coats.

The new vittoria looks interesting and i might give it a try next week.

After posting the video above I continued to do some more digging. I had found the weight weenie link (but thanks anyway !) and a few others – views seemed to be either very positive or very negative i.e. no middle ground.

Reading between the lines, It seems to me that this product favours tubs with rubberised base tape i.e. Vittoria (no surprise there) and Michelin. The glue doesn’t seem to work well with plain cloth base tapes i.e. Conti and Challenge.

Note that the generalisation of manufacturer by rubberised base tape / non rubberised base tape may be model specific so please check accordingly – but I can confirm that Challenge Crono is non rubberised and Michelin Pro 4’s are rubberised (I own both types).

It’s also interesting that Vittoria rebranded the product from magic mastic to mastic pro (https://www.vittoria.com/...ries/road-accessory/ roll down to mastics) so read into that what you will – maybe a formulation change / improvement … ?

As I am looking for a solution for the Pro 4’s I think I am going to give this a shot, trouble is I can’t find anyone stocking it yet in the UK – any ideas … ?

Cheers,

WD :-)

They have just uploaded a new video :



WD :-)

This is exactly how I mount my tubulars--it has worked flawlessly since I started racing in '88. Never a tire roll (crossed fingers) even at 59 mph...which I really didn't enjoy going that fast on that downhill, sort of wigged me out ;-)

Rocky M wrote:

This is exactly how I mount my tubulars--it has worked flawlessly since I started racing in '88. Never a tire roll (crossed fingers) even at 59 mph...which I really didn't enjoy going that fast on that downhill, sort of wigged me out ;-)

Whenever I get going really fast downhill I always think back to this video and try and go faster

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iO7_Fq56g2c

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