I like this idea

That's good but we can also run a search here on ST and find out if they are even suspected of doping.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

Bravo.

It might be appropriate to provide some detail (PEDs, excessive over-the-counter, clenbuterol from meat contamination, etc.). But they are cheaters. Let them pay the price.

That would be everyone....

According to the article that will be included:

"Details include the athlete’s name, nationality, date of infraction, type of offense, start and ending date of the ban, a graph showing how much of the ban has been served and notes regarding the specifics of the ban."

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

The list is incomplete......there is a few people missing and I didn't even get off the first page.

I hate dopers as much as the next guy but it really doesn't help me to know if I'm racing against a convicted doper.

If they are cleared to compete, get into a race that I'm doing and finish ahead of me then no matter how much whining I do they still beat me.

Perhaps it will give others the excuse they need or piece of mind knowing they did the best they could.

jaretj

I like it. The primary function of this will be shame, but that's no small thing. Shame is a massively powerful human emotion.

Time to ban the drug cheats entirely, and let us concentrate on putting extra buoyancy into our wetsuits.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

I have been thinking about what I personally feel about it and I find myself leaning towards your point of view. As you pointed out, if we race an ex doper who is cleared to compete, there is nothing we can do about it. If I lose that sucks. But I am not going to start searching for an excuse other than I just didn't have it that day.

In the big picture I think it could be good to help prevent doping/cheating. I hope with lists like this being published it will make someone think twice before making the decision to dope and cheat.

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

Hate is an effective motivating tool for me.

If they are cleared to compete, get into a race that I'm doing, and I bit, scratch, and claw to finish ahead of them, then I get to taunt them in obscenely unsportsmanlike fashion at the finish line.

Where's Kevin Moats? Are they not including age groupers?

So, what sports are these? I did not see nina krafts name either.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

it's pretty much meaningless. it's athletics, i.e., track and field. and it's all athletes. so that includes randy barnes, lifetime ban, given in 1989, shot putter.

an ACTUAL list that might make some sense is all U.S. cyclists, distance runners, swimmers, triathletes on suspension, including age group athletes. that might be a helpful list, and not hard to compile and maintain.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

This particular list managed by RRM is just for Road running and track and field

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

Slowman,

I was hoping someone would say that when I decided to open the discussion on the article. That was the first thing that I thought when reading it. As mentioned earlier, while it won't do anything to people currently convicted of doping as far as getting back to racing if they are allowed, I feel such a comprehensive list of endurance sports cheats would go a long way towards cleaning up sport. As someone pointed out, shame is a powerful human emotion.

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

honestly, the list shouldn't be worldwide dopers in T&F. it should be U.S.-based bad actors, including dopers in all endurance sports and the serial course cutters. they wreak almost as much havoc as do the dopers.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Wouldn't it be easier to just make a list of those who haven't faced doping allegations?

With today's internet age and anyone able to make baseless allegations just because they got beat, you may be onto something........

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

This is a pretty complete list of professional world wide cyclists:

http://www.dopeology.org/

H

That's what they all say ;)

Thanks Herbert!

Now if we can just get a general list for all of endurance sports! I am not sure exactly how many convicted dopers switch endurance sports after conviction, but it seems like a pretty high number.

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

There are several of those folks on that list who now compete in triathlon, and others who have.

I think you are over-estimating how much people actually care about doping outside of our little communities. Think about it, if I am an age-grouper and I dope and get caught, what would I care? My primary job is something else and this is not a criminal conviction. One might ask why an age-grouper would care enough to dope in the first place but that is beside the point. For the pros, everyone knows who these people are, it isn't really a surprise. In ball sports practically everyone takes something that would be found on the USADA list (that list includes drugs that aren't PEDs) and believe me, the average football fan could give rip. Hell, if Lance had been a nicer guy people would have quickly forgiven him based on his charity work and bringing so much positive (before the PED scandal) attention to the sport. Hell, people outside the community have largely have forgiven him, and still think he won all of those TDFs.

But look at it another way. This is a small community. Few outside of racing care. But if my name suddenly pops up as a cheater during a google search (think of all the searching that goes on from friends checking friends to job searches). This could be a nasty mark.

Yes, Axel Merckx is just one that comes to mind.

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Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.

It is a small community and people within the community do care though. Especially those particularly active in endurance sports such as coaches, shop owners, FOP AGers and Pros. Look at these ST forums. There are tons of threads on doping, dopers, hating doping, what can we do to stop doping, etc.

As a FOP AGer, I don't want to race dopers. While I am not being paid to race directly, it does impact my income. I am a coach and trainer. The better I show in races, the more people want to work with me. But income aside. I work my butt off to race well. To get beat by someone who is doping is just a kick in the teeth.

A doper winning a race, placing in front of someone, etc. whether being AGer or Pro getting paid or not, has stolen an experience from someone not doping who worked their tail off to get to that point. Look at Natascha Badmann. I think it was 2005 when she came in second. The woman who came in first was later found to have doped and the Kona crown was restored to Natascha. But she took away Natascha's experience of getting the crown, victory speech, etc.

Maybe with lists like this it will make people think twice before doping making endurance sports a little cleaner.

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"Just don’t abandon everything you’ve ever learned because of something someone said on the internet." - Eric McGinnis

It could negatively impact you within your social group in the triathlon community, and potentially at work. (It would definitely impact me at work as I undergo extensive background checks periodically). You certainly wouldn't be as welcome her on ST if you tested positive.



I don't know why in every doping thread people are so eager to bring up professional ball sports. The doping practices of ball sports or the relative concern of their fans seems pretty irrelevant to me in how we should police our own sport.


Edit: And like the above. I don't like it when I'm racing against dopers. And I have. I don't like it when clean professionals lose to dopers. I think it's incredibly corrosive to sport. It's, for lack of a better term, "cheating."

The point I was making is that if you think that shaming people is a powerful motivator, you have to first accept that said person would feel ashamed. People just don't care outside of this community. A job just doesn't care if you were busted (as unlikely as it is) for some things that are on the USADA list. For example, if you were busted for albuterol abuse or EPO. If you have a valid prescription, that is as far as people outside of the community care about. I know a few former bodybuilders who are fairly open about their steroid use and some people might not like it, but they certainly don't seem ashamed. If they were on a list, their attitude would be somewhere between "Well, I did so..." and "Who gives a sh!t, how many single mode fiber strands would you link in this conduit?".

There is no "conviction" for doping, this is not a court of law. If you want to stop doping you have to take away the incentive(s) to dope - making a little list is just another thing to make you feel better, it will do nothing to take care of the actual problem. If I am feeding my family with my winnings, the risk of being caught for doping and getting put on this list is outweighed by the fact I have to make a living. If I am an age grouper, I am just wasting my money and potentially playing with fire.

I am not defending dopers, I simply ask whether what we collectively seem to think is a good idea will actually do anything at all.

And my point is that I don't think it really matters what people think outside this community. It's about this community.

And social shaming isn't so much about punishing those who are caught, but providing a disincentive to those who might consider it. If there are no negative consequences, there is little disincentive. I, personally, think social pressures are incredibly powerful. Winning races is done almost entirely for the social benefit. People love us just a little bit more when we win.

Yes, but is it really a disincentive? I don't think so. We already have social pressures and they aren't terribly effective. All we are talking about is a searchable database; for information that is already pretty easy to obtain. Social pressures is nothing compared to money and ego. Guess what, dopers who win think they won. That is the motivation they need. Do you think a "doper registry" is going to disrupt that process?