I'd change frames and keep previous tyres or fit 28mm tyres.....

Compromising tyres is the last thing i'd ever do..... right tool for the job an all that.....

Tires expand over time?

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That is certainly the "no-limits" type of response, but I like my frame and most of us are stuck optimizing what have, most of the time.

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When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress

How dirt roady is this (I have no idea what Battenkill is like). A whole race on dirt roads or just a small section? If it is a whole race on dirt roads you don't need to worry so much about RR do you?

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Ian

I ran the same set up on my bike and I was "fine"... I will bring another rear tire next year in case conditions are like what we had this year.

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Yes, they do.

Are you talking about the Conti 4000s II's? This is relativity speaking a "tall" tire. From the aero-gurus on here, I'm told this is one of the key reasons for this tire testing so well for aerodynamics with certain rims.

I run 700 x 25's on my bike ( Cervelo R3) and width wise, there is lot's of room, but under the fork crown on my 3T Funda fork, there is not a heck of a lot of clearance. I have been told that this 3T fork was really only meant to accommodate 23mm tires.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Either that, or my frame has shrunk :-)

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When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress

I did both the cat 2 Battenkill and Pro/1/2 Cone Azalia in 2012. Cone Azalia is in Michigan, has slightly rougher roads, and is dead flat and windy.

I used Hutchinson Fusions (2 and 3) 700x23 tires for both races. I had them mounted on a Dura Ace aluminum wheelset, set up tubeless, with about 2oz of Stan's sealant each. If I remember correctly, I ran around 95psi.

At Battenkill I finished the race with bad sidewall damage on the front tire. It was still holding air and did not affect race performance, so it gave me faith in the tire. If I were doing those races again, I wouldn't consider riding anything else.

After pinching 2 tubes in the first lap of Cone Azalia 2010 (95psi) , I was not riding tubes during a dirt road race again. I race around 160 lbs, so weight wasn't the issue.

Hope this helps.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

Yup, I think I might have the same fork as you. It's a 3T on a cervelo slc-sl. It was fine for 1000 miles or so before I noticed a slight rub, once per revolution. Definitely more of a height issue than one of width.

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When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress

The Specialized Turbo Cotton in 700X24 is a super nice, comfortable 320 TPI tire which from what your describing might be your best bet. I hope to do that race one day.

tubular tires with sealant would be a nice setup if you have an old set of training wheels. Something like a conti gatorskin 25 would be good. the clincher version of that tire is too slow to race on though.

my understanding is the latex tubes help reduce the pinch flat tendency in clinchers but I have no first hand experience with them

Shame you can't mooch a cross bike off someone and just run a 28 size clincher at 85 psi

You may want to also consider the IRC RoadLite tubeless in either 23C or 25C. On wider rims they measure quite a bit larger (I measured the 25C at 26.8mm wide when mounted to a Zipp 101). Orange Seal sealant seems to work fairly well too.

I think I'll be running that 25C front and back on my old aluminum Soloist for the 2015 Spy Belgian Waffle Ride.

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I was thinking of using the 28mm conti gp 4 season clincher tire on some Hed ardennes for the Belgian waffle ride. Do you think they are a good rolling tire? I'm not sure how much pavement is on this years course but I hope they still roll good & nice on the pavement sections.

I also have a brand new set of panaracer gravelking 28mm that I'm pondering possible using.

Is the 2015 course the same as 2013? I did it in 2013 and it was pretty awesome

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"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

I like pro3races in 25mm (with latex tubes of course). They measure a bit over 27mm, so it could be a tight fit.

For rougher gravel, I'll use my Crux 'cross bike with compass stampede ELs, 32mm.

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The Vittoria Pave 24mm works great on gravel/dirt. The 27mm is even better if you have clearance.

My frame could fit the 27mm vittoria so maybe I'll need to look into those. I wonder what the puncture protection is like on them?

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"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

Very good for a 'racier' tire. Not as good as a heavy duty training tire. That said, I've ridden a lot of miles on dirt/gravel with them and flats have been minimal. IMO, line choice and not hitting things hard helps the most in preventing flats on dirt/gravel. The Pave is a favorite of mine for being relatively tough and relatively fast.

Don't know about those tires and I'm pretty sure the course changes every year.

That said, I did the 2013 route with a 23C Conti GP4000S on the back and a 23C Challenge Criterium on the front of my aluminum Soloist and did just fine in the dirt and gravel sections. There's a LOT of road on the route typically.

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"Is the 2015 course the same as 2013? I did it in 2013 and it was pretty awesome"

Different course. A little longer and less climbing. With the course profile, (the last ~15 miles is mostly downhill on pavement until the final short(ish) climb to the finish), I'd not want a clunky tire. The last 3 years I've run GP4000s or PR2s in 23c w/out issues on an alu soloist. If I were doing the race this year, I'd do the same.

I'd run the biggest high quality tubeless tires you can fit in your frame. Bontrager R3 or R2, the 23 is more like a 24 on wider rims. IRC Race-Lite 23 tubeless, I use the 25c version (which measures more like 27mm) a lot. I did a Rapha Gentleman's race (60% dirt/rocks near Boulder) this year on them at 60-65psi, as did one of my teammates. No problems.

I used to use Schwalbe One tubeless, but they cut pretty easily and have no advantages over the Bontragers or IRCs. Hutchinson are shit.

For racing on dirt, the ability to run lower pressure is more important than the tire itself, especially since you're size-limited by your frame. With a tubed clincher, you'll have to run >110psi so as not to pinch flat. You can run a tubeless tire anywhere from ~60psi on up. The added cushioning and traction on dirt sections are worth it, and no worries about pinching. Add sealant and you're also more immune to flats from small objects.

Tubulars would do a lot of this for you as well, and be lighter, but I'm hearing you prefer clincher and don't want to buy a new wheelset. The tubeless will also double as training tires, so you can race on the same setup you train on.

If you've got some secret for picking the smoothest line while in a 150 rider peloton, please enlighten me.

There aren't drafting penalties in my sport :)

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

especially going down at full speed lol

good luck picking "the perfect line" lol

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

Yep, I'll echo this. Bigger tires are an insurance policy in a peloton with little to no ground visibility many times.

What I tell my teammates for tire choice for dirt/gravel racing is that, "it's all about pressure until it's about volume".

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I haven't done that race, so don't have any idea about ground conditions. In general, I prefer more volume but your frame clearly doesn't allow that. I find Contis to be pretty true to size so surprised to hear you think they are large - some of it depends on your rim width / shape.

Perhaps the ProRace Endurance or Service Course models in 23s which are relatively high volume 23s with better flat protection. That might be a good recommendation. Mich 25s are too big.

There really isn't much more too it than that given your set-up. If you can't realistically get 25s in there, you need more plush 23s that are a little flat resistant but still roll well.

Also , I agree with other posters in that slightly reduced air pressure is good. I don't believe everyone needs 110 in a clincher for 23s - you can go lower if you are not too heavy and get some off road compliance but you do risk pinch flats if you go too low. Just going down to 90 is a benefit I have found.

Last thought - just invest in some new Contis right before the race. You were happy with them, and they worked. When they stretch, move them to another bike or gift them to a team mate, etc. Or go 23 / 25 front / rear depending on where you rubbed.

j

Perhaps a fork swap then if front clearance is the main issue?
5mm longer won't change your handling much (may slow it down a tiny amount which may be useful ie slacker head tube angle)

Not true, especially if one runs latex tubes, and depending on the size of the tire. For the 2013 BWR I described above, I ran both front and rear tires @ 80-85 psi with no issues. That was good enough for even stuff like this:


:-)

In any case, I've had good luck with the 25C IRC RoadLite tubeless and I also like the idea of running sealant in that instead of inside a latex tube...so, that's why I'll probably go that route next year...but, pressure limitations isn't one of the main reasons for that.

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I don't want to belabor this, but the OP can't run 27mm tires, and that's going to make a difference in what he can get away with pressure-wise. I tried latex tubed 23c clinchers some years ago for Boulder-Roubaix, and pinched at 110psi. I weigh around 172 (more than you), but the bigger issue was that it's a pack race, and there came a lap where we hit the dirt at ~35mph and I was at the back and could not pick my own line. I should have ridden different wheels/tires for that race, but I didn't happen to own any at the time.

I have not ridden BWR, but I do know that Battenkill is a pack race where packs of riders hit the dirt sections at high speed. BWR, in contrast, is much longer (twice as long?), with much more climbing, in a different format. In other words, you can back off the speed as required in order to preserve your equipment, and "make up" for it by picking better lines and/or climbing faster.

I absolutely believe you got away with 85psi, my point is that there are some differences in the events, and the OP can't run the setup you ran because of clearance issues. As long as he's buying tires anyway, tubeless + sealant is a cheaper, more robust solution than latex tubes (which are more resistant, but not immune to pinching).

But I ran 23C tires front and back with latex tubes. I think he could run that, no?

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Maybe, depending on how big he is and how lucky he gets on his line entering the dirt at high speed. If it were me and I had the choice between the two setups specifically for Battenkill (assume limited to 23-24mm), I'd run the tubeless in a heartbeat. Just because what you did is possible doesn't mean it's the best, or most reliable choice.

Tom, I pinched twice within the first half hour at my first Cone Azalia (flat dirt road Michigan race) attempt. I was 155 lbs riding Conti 4000s tires at 95psi and butyl tubes. I have also pinched at similar pressure with latex, so I don't think that would have made a difference.

As most of these are destination races, I just cant see putting in the time, money and effort to race on anything besides tubeless. Maybe only if you are very light and can run 28 width. The tubeless tires and sealant cost less than most of the race registration fees.

Also, as someone else mentioned, there is a huge difference between the more marathon style dirt road events, and ones that have you entering the dirt sections as a 100+ rider stampede. I regularly ride dirt roads in training, on any tire I like, and almost never flat. Big difference in a huge peloton.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

I know. I was just taking issue with your assertion that he'd need to run >110psi to avoid pinch flatting :-)

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http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Ugh.

If you want a bit of tread pattern for the dirt (all my suggestions above are slicks), Specialized Roubaix Tubeless are an option. They only measure about 24mm. They may not roll quite as fast as the IRC's or Bontragers, but they're not terrible. They're a bit heaver as well, and not immune to cuts...but they're grippy in the wet & dry, and they "feel" good. I don't know that the pattern on the rubber makes any difference (I've ridden patterned and slicks on the dirt quite a bit), but some people like it.

If I were you, I'd go with the 23s IRC Roadlite tubeless though.

Why the hate for tubulars?

Maybe I should have been more clear...I was comparing tubeless to clinchers. I have ridden tubulars, but not in dirt road races. I'm only speaking to my experience between tubeless and clincher in dirt road races.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

gp4k 25mm 90psi at 170lbs this year without any trouble (Raceday and Fall-Preride)

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

New Zipps are a good option, if you're comfortable enough for the gp4k 25's on the gravel/dirt I would be just as comfortable with the Zipps. They measure 24~ and are more true to size IIRC. Although, If you can find the Sworks cotton I would be partial to that tire simply because I like gumwalls :). Both should do if you're comfortable with a narrower tire on gravel. I've never had issue running 23's on rougher roads.

But I ran 23C tires front and back with latex tubes. I think he could run that, no?

Tom,

I think the riding/racing dynamic is what is important here. When riding on your own - you can pick your line. But in a group in a race in a big pack, few if any guys will be pointing out the big rocks and big pot holes. Some nice dudes do, but most don't.

I raced the Gran Fondo New York event last year - awesome event all on paved roads, but some short sections, over some very rough paved roads. I spent much of the race in a big group. I hit some nasty potholes. Tires survived (Conti 4000sII 700 X 25 at about 95 psi), but both front and back wheels overall took a beating and needed some truing up after.

If I was riding the same route on my own or even in a small group of friends - this would have not been the case. I could have picked my line better or had the big hits pointed out.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Concur that tubeless is the way to go but baring that, I'd throw the Vittoria Open Pave CG (clincher) into mix, which comes in a 25. I used a 27 version at the 100B7 in Quebec, which is almost 100k of gravel worse than anything I recall Battenkill having. I rode it at 80/85 (considering it's a 27). The sidewall took some good hits but handled rough roads with no problem. It's really nice on pavement as well, riding far better than the Conti 4 Season. Hands down my fav training / gritty race tire.

I'll 2nd the Vittoria Pave 24mm, I used the tubular version for years racing on the crap roads of the midwest.
I'm using 30mm Challenge Open tubular tires for Rock Cobbler and BWR this year because I'm a rotund wheelsucker. I, too, flatted 27mm Challenge Paris-Roubaix tires @90psi in this year's OCCC dirt section so I'm upping the volume.
I'm fortunate that my road frame handles the girth above and below the saddle.
-SD

I'd just like to commend your participation in the Cone Azalia race and hope you'll be back in '15

-SD

Thanks to all for interesting thoughts and discussion. Tubeless is probably the way to go, but I've not taken the plunge trying to set that up yet. I'm unlikely to do it for the first time for Battenkill, so we'll see if I find myself stuck on clinchers.

Many votes for Vittoria Pave 24's, which is cool because I've not considered them. Tom A, do you have any idea how these rolls?

Arguably rolling resistance only gets more important the less smooth the surface becomes. It's an entirely different but no less interesting discussion how and if roller tests translate to gravel or cobbles...

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When I channel my hate to productive, I don't find it hard to impress

Ha ha thanks. I made the money in the P/1/2 there and my teammate was 2nd. I take it you've done Cone too?

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

I'd just like to commend your participation in the Cone Azalia race and hope you'll be back in '15


Dave,


OT and perhaps worthy of a thread of it's own.

Why on the road side of things, do these somewhat more obscure road fondos, on dirt gravel or a combination of paved and gravel seem to be "catching on" and "popular" while in triathlon events away from the "mainstream" (IM), don't really seem to be catching on?

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

It's a really good question, you should start a new thread about that because others might be interested to jump in.

I started the race as a loose group of nutjobs who gathered one early spring Sunday to knock out 5 hours on the SE Michigan dirt roads in 2001. By 2002 it was a real USCF event and we even made it a stage race in 2004 IIRC with a 8km Prologue, 110km gravel road race, and a circuit race on the Waterford road race track run backwards from the typical direction with a "KOM" sprint at the top of the little hill on the backside of the race track.

It's still on my bucket list as a race I'd like to win, I've been close a couple times but Cone always seems to bring out the ringers. (Kirk Albers/Jelly Belly; Frankie Andreu/Postal, Paul Martin/Navigators, Karl Bordine/Colavita, etc...)

Good times.

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Awesome! I am in Ohio, so I can attest to the strength of Martin/Albers...sometimes I race against them multiple times in a weekend. If you ever happen to race in the OH, drop me a PM.

Edit to add- I race for Ride On Wooster Elite/development, and Ride On is a Felt dealer.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

There's a small chance I'll make it to Westlake some summer night but I seldom get back east to ride. I'll be in the Cleveland area Dec 26 & 27th. Anything going on I should consider bringing a bike along?

-SD

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https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era

Well, in my opinion you should never be without a bike! Ha ha, no events here that I know of, I think we may have some snow by then, so I'll likely be riding some rail trails on my mtb. I live about an hour south of Cleveland, though.

-Physiojoe

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-Physiojoe
Instagram: @thephysiojoe
Cycling coach, Elite racer on Wooster Bikewerks p/b Wootown Bagels

This is stupid question but is there a simple foolproof way to determine the max clearance on your bike if you can't find it published anywhere? I assume I can simply measure clearance in the fork up front and the stays in the back at the narrowest looking points.

Motivation is I am racing BWR this year and currently riding 23mm GP4000s II's on Flo 30s. I weigh a little under 160 and generally run them around 100-105psi with no issues on the road. My plan was to just run these around 85-90psi like you mentioned rather than try and size up for something bigger just for this race. However, I am curious how wide I could go on my 2011 S2 if I needed to.

In these instances it's worth having a second bike with greater clearance for GP4K 28's - here's one: http://mmba.org/...php?f=8&t=128235
I raced the SS division in a couple of long hilly races on Clement X'plor USH 35's but the roads were poor, sandy and washed out. Impossible on GP4k's and the like.

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