Fishies,

Terribly slow swimmer here - 50yr old female - swimming for about 2 1/2 years mostly self taught. Spent the last 16months in Masters swim 3x/wk and did not improve much at all. So have officially ditched that out of major frustration and have started working with a coach 1x/week on technique only. Have major technique flaws (no surprise there) but at least now I have something to focus on for improvement.

Reading the threads here on ST - it is pretty clear that swimming well is "100% fitness & 100% technique" (forget who said that). The question I have is as I try to relearn how to swim, how much time should I devote to technique over endurance?

For now, as I try to master technique (rotation, timing of breath finish stroke, kick, timing of kick), should I just do 25s and focus on one aspect of swim at a time to ingrain good habits?

Right now, when I swim longer than 50, I find myself right back where I started and I really want to get away from all the bad habits that have become ingrained over the past 16months of just swimming lots with bad form but am worried about losing fitness.

So my Q - if my long term goal is to get this swimming thing down, should I just swim 25s for the next few months? When should I start doing longer swims? I do plan to get in the water 4-5x/week for 30-60min a session. Long term goal - Olympic/half distance - but will probably stick to sprints this summer - maybe one Olympic if I can get some confidence in my swimming.

I am a FOP athlete in my age group at local sprints - thanks to big improvements on the run (am a cyclist) - but I come out of the water in a panic and in almost last place and then play catchup the rest of the race so I really want to get this swimming thing down!

Thanks for your help fishies!

What can you do ....lets 5x 100 in? What would be your avg time per hundred?

You should not devote time to "form over fitness". You shall work hard and while working hard focusing on perfect technique. It is easier to hold a good and sound technique if you are swim fit. You can do some more technique-related stuff that still works your swim fitness though like 3x500 pull descend with a snorkel and focusing on a great catch, right into 10x50 on whatever start intervall and swim fast with a strong pull AND strong kick, making sure that your last 2-3 intervals are the fastest. If this is not possible, well you lack the fitness to hold technique and then you need fitness, not necessarily more technique (even though better technique makes you faster at the same RPE, but so does fitness).

Asking swimmers how to learn to swim is like asking Michael Jordan how to play basketball. They just don't remember that phase anymore. Fishes were generally teen and childhood swimmers.

Yeah. And you know why fishes can't really remember 'learning' how to swim? It's because it wasn't a fast, easy process. They were in the water 4-10 times a week swimming 2k-6k per session for years straight. Not a single fish became a fish in their first, or second, or third year in the pool (hell, even MJ was cut from the basketball team his freshman year). Their technique wasn't fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn't fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues. But the really kicker was that they were given an expectation that they were to be in the water day in, day out, for months, and then years at a time. And, they were given a culture that the pace clock was more important than the coach. During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

Almost every adult I've met (including, but not limited to, triathletes) is not willing to be in the pool for 2 hours a day by 6 days a week. The only reason that childhood swimmers are any better than adult-onset swimmers is that they put in a lot of time and a lot of yards. And they never stop working on their stroke. They focus on their technique WHILE they are swimming. Technique and fitness are inseparable- both improve with work. (Some people just have different starting places.) The athlete's body and the clock gives them the feedback they desire. Sure, it's easier for the fishes. Now. It wasn't always the case. They sucked big time. Don't discredit the amount of work and the amount of tinkering that they have done over countless years and yards in the water. Becoming a fish isn't/ wasn't easy for anyone.

Don't stress the time/pace right now. I wouldn't be doing 25s on :50. Do them with :20 rest interval or something and hold your best pace. Try to get all the same time. There is no magic window on when to progress to longer sets. Everyone will get it at different times. Your coach and you will have to determine that one by testing longer sets. Like was mentioned, starting point is different for everyone. I would not progress up until you have the technique though. You will know this by "testing" yourself with the longer sets.


As for dry land, stretch cords are amazing. Core work will help tremendously as well. As for weights, lots of different approaches to it. In the beginning just about all of them will help. Injury prevention when dry land training though!

I personally could not lift and swim. It would drop me 5 sec per hundred...............Jason and I had a conversation a while ago on how slow one could swim and keep good technique. Its one of the problems with drills. With decent technique it is hard to swim real slow......kinda like practicing running technique on the track while running a 12 min pace.
My advice. Lots of hard, fast as you can swimming of 50's and 100's. Amount of rest is not important. You cannot practice good form at a 2:10 pace. If it was good form you would go faster...........w/u 10 x 50 5x100 5x100 10 x 50 Thats a quick 2000 without the w/u. ....When you can hold the same speed jump to 200. ....my 2 cents

The question I have is as I try to relearn how to swim, how much time should I devote to technique over endurance?

For now, as I try to master technique (rotation, timing of breath finish stroke, kick, timing of kick), should I just do 25s and focus on one aspect of swim at a time to ingrain good habits?

should I just swim 25s for the next few months? When should I start doing longer swims?

Their technique wasn't fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn't fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues.

During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

Thanks - lots of good stuff.

It's just such a catch22 - my all out pace is slow due to bad form - so how do I fix it to get faster? Do I try to fix it first? For adult onset swimmers - it really is such a chicken or the egg problem. I am gonna just keep swimming - but I think maybe 10x25, 5x50, repeat and then step up to set you recommended.

Asking swimmers how to learn to swim is like asking Michael Jordan how to play basketball. They just don't remember that phase anymore. Fishes were generally teen and childhood swimmers.

Yeah. And you know why fishes can't really remember 'learning' how to swim? It's because it wasn't a fast, easy process. They were in the water 4-10 times a week swimming 2k-6k per session for years straight. Not a single fish became a fish in their first, or second, or third year in the pool (hell, even MJ was cut from the basketball team his freshman year). Their technique wasn't fixed quickly. Most of the time, it wasn't fixed directly by a coach either. Yes, they were given drills and occasional feedback if there was any major issues. But the really kicker was that they were given an expectation that they were to be in the water day in, day out, for months, and then years at a time. And, they were given a culture that the pace clock was more important than the coach. During that time in the water, the athlete made hundreds of tiny changes to their stroke. And when a minute change was made and deemed to be successful, the athlete practiced it for thousands upon thousands of yards, all the while making other tiny changes to their stroke. Learning to swim and swim fast is a dynamic and endless process not achieved quickly. Swimmers are ever tinkering with their stroke, body position, entry, recovery, etc. Each and every time in the water is a learning experience.

Almost every adult I've met (including, but not limited to, triathletes) is not willing to be in the pool for 2 hours a day by 6 days a week. The only reason that childhood swimmers are any better than adult-onset swimmers is that they put in a lot of time and a lot of yards. And they never stop working on their stroke. They focus on their technique WHILE they are swimming. Technique and fitness are inseparable- both improve with work. (Some people just have different starting places.) The athlete's body and the clock gives them the feedback they desire. Sure, it's easier for the fishes. Now. It wasn't always the case. They sucked big time. Don't discredit the amount of work and the amount of tinkering that they have done over countless years and yards in the water. Becoming a fish isn't/ wasn't easy for anyone.

Not sure if this has been covered in your training over the last few years. The stretch cords work wonders, 3x/week for 10-15 minutes. 80% of your swim improvements can come from your underwater pull. I'm not sure how much all the extra kick work will gain you. This was a great read. You can also find videos on Youtube on how to do the stretch cord dry land work.

http://www.ebay.com/...;hash=item4185de3779

Thanks guys - I just got Shelia Ts book and notice the stretch cords section - they seem cheap enough and worth a go for sure!

I do recognize that swimming is a process - but I have been beating my head against the wall getting nowhere for the past 16 months and feel like I need to take 3 steps back right now to move forward.

In response to Kevin in Md - I don't swim mindlessly, I do swim with a focus - indeed I would get bored stiff swimming mindlessly - but I also am clearly not aware of what it takes to get the stroke technique down - so I guess I am more of a type 2. I don't know what I am doing wrong until corrected. Our masters coach did not do a very good job helping me figure out what to correct so I have now ingrained some very bad technique and have to unlearn it. It was also a huge confidence killer to work so hard, invest so much time (and $$) and get nowhere. Swimming isn't coming naturally for me.

All that aside, I am attacking this with a vengeance, recognize there are no quick fixes and it is not going to happen overnight - am just trying to figure out the best way to go about relearning how to swim. The approach of throwing volume at it - you will figure it out - did not work so well for me. So I am trying to figure out if there is a different approach I should take before I step up the volume and intensity again. The only thing I know for sure is I need to get in the pool frequently - the Q is what do I focus on for the next few months to relearn good habits. And yes, it is rather overwhelming at times bc I can't focus on more than one thing at a time when swimming without everything else going to hell! ARGHHHH!!!

Thanks for all of the tips! So far, I need to get swim cords, focus on no more than two things at a time and keep some endurance/intensity work in there. But I think as soon as form starts to go right now, I am gonna stop and save it for the next day.

Not a lot to add. I rate technique over fitness. I see no point in spending long hours working hard with bad technique, because the changes required to get to good technique may well be using the muscles differently, so you will just need to spend time building up those new movements. Seen a couple of mentions of visualization. Here is a great visualization tool.
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Ummm, no.

Technique and fitness are linked. You need fitness to execute the technique, and you need technique to utilize the fitness. You work on both, all the time.

That's why it's even more important to work on one thing at a time and work on fitness while working on technique, to reduce the risk of injury....

Technique changes as you improve fitness and you swim faster. So, to use your runner example, you want to run a 6 min mile, so you go to track and practice technique, hone it real well at a 12 min pace? Your technique today a a 2min 100 will not be the same as 1:45 pace

You confuse me.

One thing wrt technique. I didn't think I had to spell that out....

Eg during a hard set of 20x50, just concentrate on head position, or initial catch, or hand entry, or...... You can swim hard while you do that.

One thing wrt technique. I didn't think I had to spell that out....

Eg during a hard set of 20x50, just concentrate on head position, or initial catch, or hand entry, or...... You can swim hard while you do that.

On whatever off time you can manage. Play with it, if you are falling apart after 10 of them, then you need more rest. If it's easy, then take less rest.

For these, you want to be going at your 400m / 500y pace or slightly better for all of them, so take whatever rest you need to keep going at that pace. I'd typically do them on an off time that gives me 15 -20 s rest.
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Sorry, I'm not very good at posting properly yet. I guess I'll be making mistakes at this too until I get good like many of you.

I really appreciate Jason's and the experienced swimmers insights. Such as practice at a reasonable pace with enough rest to swim well. Too often new and poor swimmers do not take or get enough rest in master's programs which leads to the feeling it's all about struggling. It's an eye opener that the two hours a day that I put into running will now have to be put into swimming to discover how good a swimmer I can be.

Often we hope that "pretty" technique and equipment will get us where we want to be. The magical foot plant while running, a pretty aero bike, that elusive swim stroke.

I have been to many running races where people with atrocious foot plants due to hip and feet limitations are beating "pretty" runners.

If someone on an aero bike is averaging 25 mph and I'm going 20 mph on a road bike, a pretty bike is going to only make a 1 mph difference. I will have to put in the time to make up the other 4 mph if I'm capable of doing it.

Learning swim technique is important. It's helpful to feel like you are doing it right while training and that you are in control. Once aware of technique, I'm afraid that it is going to take an hour to two hours a day for several years before my swimming compares to my running or cycling. Over several years I went from running at eight minute miles to sub six minute miles. I was satisfied with the steady improvement of taking just one second off my mile average from week to week.

While running, my leg speed and stride length both improved as I put in the miles. Bringing the leg through a little faster tended to increase the stride length also. I did do running drills and hill running too; yet, it was running two a day workouts and three hour runs on the weekend that took me from MOP to FOP. So while I feel that I am stroking fast enough, I probably do need to bump it up gradually to increase my swim speed while putting in workouts of an hour or more daily.

Oh how I wish I could get there through "pretty" rather than time spent.

Background: 6', 145 pounds and I will be 60 in February. Very grateful for my health and that there are things, like my swim, that I can really improve upon if I put in the time.

The expert advice that I can get from the swimmers and cyclists by reading the ST forum is also appreciated. And I especially enjoyed the humor expressed with the exploding carbon bike during winter thread!

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Indoor Triathlete - I thought I was right, until I realized I was wrong.

One thing to mention that I haven't read explicitly (admittedly I did not peruse the entire thread) is that my technique goes to hell when I get tired, and when I get tired is determined by my fitness. This is very apparent in my Garmin laps, my first 800-1000 meters will be around 2:00/100 m, then all of a sudden I drop to 2:10 (as you can tell, I'm not a fast swimmer). Soto answer your question, more fitness can only help, and whatever it takes to gain it is needed. I do my best when I include lots of laps with weight training that focuses on abdominal and lats.