Wait, so an adult onset swimmer like me who will lose 1-2 minutes in the water and the lead pack on the bike, but can make of some or most of that time on the bike, gets to drag crappier bikers to the lead pack if possible? So really it's just comes down to "who's the fastest runner" ? Really discounts the bike, just work on swim and run. Not a fan for AG.

Before considering your questions, I have a couple for you?

1. How will the event organizer ensure that an athlete does not draft off of athletes from a different age-group?
2. Are there bike specifications?
3. Will I have to take two bikes to the World Champs if I qualify or want to do both races?

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Sorry to ask more questions, but I'm curious how it works in other countries?

Do they have wave or mass starts? Are total numbers lower?

With the Milwaukee course I don't see much potential for AG mixing, but I see Jommy R's point, especially on multi-lap courses. Maybe those just get mass started?

However it works, I'd love to do one just to try it out.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

You have made some assumption about what the ITU is doing in 2016 worlds for a DL AG sprint race. Everything I have heard says this is far from settled. Until it is, no need to worry about anything else.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

1. Start them in wave 1
2. USAT and ITU Draft legal bike specifications
3. Yes, unless you want to ride a DL bike in the no draft race



1. I agree
2. Need to have a few races so people can practice. Even adding a DL super sprint race would help, there the bike means very little anyway.
3. I don't think that mass start bike racing is necessary. I do feel that someone should have done at least one DL race to qualify for the DL sprint Nationals

I agree there should be practice races available, but all of this has come about too quickly for there to be all that many of them. Given that, I don't think they'll put in any qualifications as it would eliminate too many potential competitors from the field. Last year there were 1735 finishers in the Sprint, bringing in >$147k not even counting the no shows. My completed unfounded wild guess is that registration will drop by 80% if they put in a qualification requirement to have finished a draft legal race. USAT can't walk away from the registration money they give up (and not out of greed--they just have bills to pay).

I do find it a little strange that ITU is very clear that 2016 is DL. But USAT hasn't really commented (as far as I know) on 2015 sprint AG nationals one way or the other. It seems to make sense for DL race, but with people planning their seasons now, it would be good to know for sure.

Practically, I think that if you made a local no drafting rule near the turnaround (after the first time over the bridge) and near the corner going back toward T2 (after coming back over the bridge), you'd eliminate most of the probability of crashes. Those are the only two spots on the sprint course where I could see accidents happening unless someone lost control over one of the expansion joint covers on the bridge.

What I love most about DL racing, is it reduces somewhat, the "Arms race" in bicycle equipment, as there would be marginal gains for a high end bike.

I disagree with another poster. If you are a strong cyclist, sure you might drag some guys with you, but surely, there's other strong cyclists you can recruit to share the work. Yes, some may sit in, but that's when you launch a break with other strong cyclists and drop their asses. That's the challenge of road racing. How to manage your energy reserves.

Ultimately, it rewards the most well rounded triathlete. If you a slower swimmer... guess what, you need to drop your biking to maybe 30-40% of your training in the base periods and swim your ass off to improve. Ramp it up to 30k yards per week. That may likely mean 2 swim a day a few days a week... and a 2-1/2 hour swim til your arms fall off workout instead o a long run on the weekend... and that's still less than a good high school swim program..... and I guarantee you'll see results. You can't piss around at 15k/wk and expect miracles the same way you can't run 20mpw and expect to run anywhere near your potential off the bike.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

No need to get rid of the sprint no draft. Run the DL on Friday, it will be a smaller event anyway.

Then there would be 3 events and "Moe Money" going to USAT

jaretj

This just isn't true. If you miss the lead pack, you're not going to be able to catch them, most likely. Secondly, it's just a different kind of bike race. Instead of straight line speed, you've got to be able to handle a bike in a crowd, close gaps, work together, etc.

Yes, you have to be able to run. That's the case in non-draft, as well. Perhaps not as much as draft legal. Perhaps, the bike is "discounted" as compared to draft legal, but not as much as many make it out to be. Check out this article from Herbert from 2012:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...n_Drafting_2794.html

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-Stephen in Arkansas

Just doing some math:

The good triathletes coming out of the water will probably be riding 29 to 30 minutes for the 20K

If a person comes out of the water a minute down from the leaders, in order to catch them they will have to ride 28 to 29 minutes. That's nearly 27 mph to pull back that minute in any reasonable amount of time before the bike finish.

They're going to have to be an incredible cyclist (on a road bike) to do that. So if someone thinks the only way they can win a race is to drag a bunch of people with them on the bike is kidding themselves.

They will have to work on their swim.

Yup. I would run it separately, too.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

What's the normal limit for field (wave) size in DL tris? The men's 45-49 AG had the largest no. of finishers in Milwaukee last year with 130. If that is too large, USAT will need to do something to limit the wave size.

I raced the sprint last year in the 55-59 AG. I don't think the 75 of us who raced last year would need qualifying DL races before nationals to avoid carnage at DL nationals, assuming that we would have our own wave start.

Since DL races will likely be more tactical, will it be fair to continue to use the age-up rule to select Team USA for Worlds?

You know it would be really fun if Shannon could add a DL to his series races. I'd come down and do them if he offered them.

Or maybe adding a DL two times through-Super Sprint to one or more of his races...Like Maumee Bay.

jaretj

There are no draft marshals at the current events. ;)

I agree with what you are saying but in some races I can drag those fish back to within striking distance on the run, with the lead pack sharing the workload there is no chance of my closing any gap so essentially the race is over after the swim. To the poster who said swim 30K a week, I agree that would probably do it but I'm a business owner and only have so much time to train, spending that much time swimming and ignoring the bike and swim would be a daunting task. Prefer what others have said in that there be 3 races with the traditional non draft and one DL. I don't think any leg of a race should be "discounted".

The point, for me, is that they're different races w/ different strategies, etc. One is not better or worse. One does not prove that you are a better or worse triathlete. Non draft isn't going away. And draft legal is coming. Why can't we just embrace them both? Cycling has multiple disciplines: TT, climbing, crit, sprint, road, track, etc. And different cyclists excel at different aspects of cycling.

It's like comparing different distances to each other. Some people are better built for short course, others long. Or hilly vs flat. Or off-road vs road. Different races require certain skills that another race may not. It doesn't mean they're better or worse.

If triathlon had started as draft legal, the likelihood is that non-drafting would come into play eventually, and we'd be having these same arguments in reverse. I can already hear it.... "The swim is totally discounted in non-draft races. It puts too much emphasis on the bike!"

One might suggest that non-draft races discount the swim. And that by making the races draft legal, it evens out the importance of the disciplines w/in the race.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

That is the big thing I am worried about right now as far as overalls are concerned. Using my wave for example 16-24, if we are launched after two younger male waves there will be masses of people to draft off moving at a solid clip, if we are launched after a couple older male/female waves all of a sudden you are at a major disadvantage in the overalls to the people that did start in a clump of faster age-groups.

Agree bring on the DL as another aspect of racing, I'm all for growth of the sport. Having both formats allows for choice and that serves everyone. I thought I saw a post earlier that stated World's would be only DL but maybe I misread and there will be both DL and non DL. They are two completely different animals in both strategy and training so an adjustment period will be needed.

I think the running abilities for the fastest swimmers is wide enough in a AG race that to say it's over, is a stretch. The best all around triathletes are staying away anyhow on DL and the best AG athletes are all strong cyclists, so the bike is already somewhat neutralized I'd argue and it comes down to either having a balanced swim/bike or being a strong swimmer or strong runner.

I think you can't fairly compared the pro race to the AG race. There will be a wider range of abilities.

But overall, yes, it will force you to be a well rounded triathlete. You can no longer suck at either running or swimming and expect to have a good result.

Here's a scenerio. Lets say I come out at 9:00, 1 minute behind the lead pack. But I come out with a guy that can ride lets say a 29:00 solo and I'm strong enough to stay on his wheel, and even pull 20% of the time and lets say another strong runner comes with me as well. I know he's going to lay down a 15:30 off the bike, so I'm not a threat to him, but together we can bridge most of that gap to the lead group f lets say 2 fish that can't run or bike, 2 fish that are all-arounders. And 1 stud that 's going to win no matter what. 1 fish that a all arounder, then I'll run maybe a 17:30.

So that lead pack drop the 2 weaker cyclists. And the 3 stronger riders work together. Our chase group picks up the weaker cyclists, ow we have a group of 5 chasing the leaders. Those leaders can see us closing and push harder, eventually the strongest rider jumps off the front and builds a 20" lead. We bridge within 20". So now it's a foot race. With all 8 within 1:30 of each others. Guess what, our spread of running abilities is at least 3 minutes, so there will be some big changes in position.

So what's the end result? Closer racing, bike tactics and strategy rather than simply trying to pace evenly.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

"1. Start them in wave 1"

Start all of the draft legal age-groups at once?

Regarding your other answers - my assumptions, too, but I look forward to seeing it all on paper. I was hoping Ian had some inside scoop. Maybe he'll chime in with details ...

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

If you are talking about a local race then yes, I don't think there will be more and 100 people at a local DL race anyway.

If you are talking about Nationals then see my comment about running the DL on Friday, separate from the no draft races. If you put 10 minutes between them on a single loop course I don't think anyone (in contention) will be close enough to draft. If it becomes bigger than ~10 waves or 1000 people then we might have to do something else but still 10 min between waves only adds 45 minutes to the race day over 5 min between waves.

Then again we don't really have to do a DL sprint at all and just use the no draft sprint at Nationals as a qualifier for Worlds.

jaretj

Jimmy, I'm sorry, I have no inside skinny on this. I'm kinda surprised that I haven't heard any discussion of the issue. There's a pickle that's been created here: ITU says 2016 AG Worlds in sprint will be DL and then a decision has to be made. Do we create a DL qualifier at Nationals or not. And if we do create a DL race at Nats then how do we qualify folks for that race.

I'm not worried about ITU's schedule. They made this situation, they can deal with it and it shouldn't be hard - they're already running 6+ DL races at every Worlds event already so they can add this one.

I'm not all that worried about USAT Nationals in DL format - I think that can be scheduled on a different day or after non-draft races and using the same course.

My worry is the creation of local and regional DL races that might qualify athletes for DL Nationals. My immediate thinking might work for the first couple of years: Have the RD run one wave of DL somewhere in their day. Send everyone off at once - all ages for sure, maybe - if numbers permit - separate genders. The problem in the first couple of years won't be over crowding, the problem will be too few athletes. So invite collegiate, U25, U23, Juniors, anyone who wants the DL experience - and it's an AG Nationals DL qualifier (scored separately). We need opportunities for all those folks to race DL now anyway and there are too few events to satisfy.

The Monroe EDR (in the past) and the Detroit EDR (this year, first year) has had ~27 people in the men's race and even less in women's. Some as old as 40 (in Monroe) and some as young at 18.

In Detroit they ran an AG DL even with 8 men and 1 women. That's what we CANNOT have, we cannot have a situation where we ask an RD to put on a DL event and then 1 person shows up. It's too brutal. If we're going to run a qualifying system then pick out one race in each region, give them a small but motivating stipend to subsidize the event in the early years and lump in any and all who want to race draft legal.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

FTR, I like the idea of asking guys to attend a couple mass start cycling races, at least in early years. They could buy a one day license and enter a couple crits. It would give a taste of what a draft legal race is like w/o running into the problems you mention regarding low turnout, etc.

I know lots of local triathletes that regularly podium that would quickly shy away from DL because they're neither comfortable nor competent in race traffic.

My only concern is for safety. I think requiring them to enter the mass start races would weed out a lot of the problems.

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-Stephen in Arkansas

So the local race is more about the experience, than the race - which I understand, if that's what you're saying.

I hope the organizers realize that to have a legitimate draft legal tri, they must have ample time between waves, as you suggest, and must strictly enforce bike specs. I'm pretty sure that the organizers will work it out, but I find it strange that more details are not available - other than "we're having a draft legal age-group W/C."

I've done my share of (pro/elite) ITU/USAT draft legal events, and enjoyed most of them, even though I sucked unless the bike was hard or technical. The ITU and USAT did a good job of making sure that our bikes complied, and that lapped riders were pulled from the event, etc. I love the idea of sprint distance draft legal tris and relays for the (relatively small field size) pros - exciting and strategic, and I enjoy watching pro/elite draft legal ITU events.

Having a draft legal age-group W/C will be tougher to manage, however - because of the increased field size - much less strategic and exciting (also due to the field size and a greater emphasis placed on the individual result vs. country/team aspect that exists in the pro field).

Frankly, my opinion is that the ITU/USAT would be better served putting resources towards producing a fair non-drafting sprint W/C, rather than throwing in the towel with regard to enforcing non-drafting. I also feel that the vast majority of age-group triathletes will have very little interest in the outcome (results) of draft legal age-group triathlon, and very little interest in participating as long as there is a choice between non-drafting races and draft legal races.

Until I learn otherwise, making the age-group sprint race draft legal seems like a cop-out to me (or possibly a way to further their agenda of the inclusion of draft legal sprint tri or relay in the Olympics?). In other words, it doesn't seem like the inclusion of draft legal age-group sprint W/C came about due to massive interest from the age-groupers. It seems like an organizer, country, National Federation, or International Federation felt like it'd be a good idea - for them, more so than for the athletes.

Just my opinion - I could be wrong.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Jimmy,

off topic but I wanted to reach out and say well done on Kona... penalty tents seemed much fuller than last year, which was an embarrasing year for drafting, IMO. I raced this year in the front 100 on the bike, and it seemed like the marshalls were present and resisting the urge to "break things up" and instead just handed out penalties fairly and firmly. I always noticed them rolling up, watching for a good while, and then making reasoned decisions on penalties. This kept things broken up quite a bit.

I will say that after observing this I believe that "clean" riders become penalty magnets. You're strong, and you always pass no matter what if you break 7m, so you roll through a group making passes. When you get to the front a bunch of guys have begun to fight for your wheel. You slow a little as you are now into the wind. Moto rolls up and boom a bunch of guys get penalties.

maybe you could have a drafting version of "clean protocol" and give these guys transponders so the motos know where they are and can clean the riff raff off their wheels.

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

"In Detroit they ran an AG DL even with 8 men and 1 women. That's what we CANNOT have, we cannot have a situation where we ask an RD to put on a DL event and then 1 person shows up"

Thanks, Ian. This is my main concern, too (discussed in more detail in my previous post) - and the fact that a mass start (all age-groups together) draft legal race is pointless from a competition standpoint.


Which brings me to my central point: draft legal age-group WC makes no sense to me and would be more trouble than it's worth.


We already have a feeder (to Pro/Elite) system in place.


To answer your questions - lots of good ideas in this thread, but seems like the interest isn't there for regional qualifiers so you would just focus on the Nat'l Champs?

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

Just wanted to hit "LIKE" on this post, but slowman has not licensed the "thumbs up" logo from Zuckerberg for forum functionality yet.

I again ask why continue to have so many folks put so much energy on something that may never happen. Or if it does, until the ITU gives the total detail package, I think folks continue to over react.

Nothing from USAT has been announced for any DL stuff at AG nationals. This says something.

Nothing more has come out from the ITU.

I know there was a lot of push back from the federations at the ITU meeting at Edmonton about this.

So, I sure am not holding my breathe worrying about this will ever happen for the average AGer. Now a Pro level AGer, we shall see, but masses, never.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I again ask why continue to have so many folks put so much energy on something that may never happen."

Quit wasting your energy, then :)

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

 I hear you Dave. I'm invested in this because a) triathlon is my business, b) I like DL race at all levels and I'm excited at the notion that it could trickle down to age groupers, c) I do believe (hope?) that the ITU will live up to their claim, d) I'm one of those Pollyannas who believes that I can make a difference in the direction of things - to such an insane degree that in two weeks I'll vote for a congress person to replace Henry Waxman thinking the the person who gets elected might actually have an impact on the future of our nation. If I think that's true then I sure as hell think I can steer the direction of triathlon in the U.S.

Ian

 Jimmy,

"to have a legitimate draft legal tri, they must have ample time between waves" and " draft legal age-group W/C will be tougher to manage, however - because of the increased field size - much less strategic and exciting"

Age group draft legal racing won't be "legitimate" or exciting (to watch at least) and that's because it can't be/won't be in the multi lap format. That's how we think of DL racing but for age groups it can't happen like that due to the larger fields - unmanageable. The course will still need to be a long 20k and while there will be drafting going on and therefore there will still be some"stratergerie". But it won't be the spectator friendly format. If that were the case then we'd have to wait ~30 minutes between each wave and it would be a LONG day. Terry Davis used to put 15min between waves at Treasure Island and man did that protract the event!


I'm so refreshed by your opinion as to the 'why' of it all. You're speculating that the ITU is doing this so that they don't have to Marshal drafting at the sprint distance any more. it strikes me that a) I hadn't considered that and b) of course you would consider that.


When the field is 75 even the bike check is a hassle: UCI non-standard legal wheel check, arobars with factor bridge that don't extend past the levers, helmet, etc. That stuff alone is a time suck and the nose of saddle in relation to BB never gets looked at. To that end the bike rules should be easy: road only, no aerobars, standard wheels or wheels only from the UCI list, no aero helmets 'cause they look stupid and while were on that let's just throw out compression socks in there too for good measure - I mean f*ck it! If we're gonna clean up the sport let's do it all right here and how :)


Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

I sure as hell will have to respectfully disagree with your last statement in bold.

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bhc, you disagreeing with what exactly? What I think? I wrote that I'm a pollyanna to such an extent that I'm voting for congress (you get that right? there's a little tongue in cheek going on there) and then I use that to frame up the next bit..that if I'm willing to do that then it's easy for me to think that I can have an impact on triathlon in the US. And you disagree with that?

If I type this sentence: "I think that purple is the very best color". Do you see an opportunity or reason to disagree with that too?

Or am I misunderstanding. Are you saying that YOU don't feel like YOU think you have any impact on the direction in triathlon in the US. And if that's the case then a) I'm sorry that I misunderstood you and b) If you really wanted to you could have an impact on the direction of things but you'd have to start somewhere and I would begin by adding your real name and location to your profile here at ST.

Ian

When we had this thread before, and the ITU first responded to Dan that the only change was no marshals, made sense to me.

Mexico is the federation that supposedly pushed this through. They have DL races with like thousands of folks? Dan was maybe going to go down and watch a race.
But then this stuff died out.

We have our DL AG race here in Northern Calif that was last week. Multiple laps so very spectator friendly. No one got hurt, again. Zero special rules. Just normal Tri stuff.

So yep, I have tried to steer it also to be just get riding of the drafting rules, since so many are doing it anyways, and we do not have lots of safety issues. This still might
be one outcome. Who knows.

But USAT not saying anything about a DL race at AG nationals says a lot to me about what might be happening behind the scenes.

I love to do this DL AG race. Not special anything. And it makes the swim mean something.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I think you make some good points

I don't think it's a cop-out, just a different Idea. I don't know where it's being driven from, an official's personal opinion or some triathlon lobbyists or maybe they took a survey of some clubs in Europe.

I'll go anyway they choose, I'm still a MOP athlete anyway. I don't think I'll be able to go to Europe any time soon so a short course WC is not in the picture for me.

jaretj

we have wave starts but not so divided as you would think - usually 4-5 for men and 2-3 for women and 1 for relays. elites and disabled in same wave.
numbers in thousands.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

Anyone die yet because it is a DL race?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Thank you, Eric. I'm glad it was a better experience this year.

And I agree with your comments about "penalty magnets" and suggestion on how to use them.

Used your strategy often, when Joe Boness was racing. He was the ultimate penalty magnet.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

"Age group draft legal racing won't be "legitimate" or exciting (to watch at least) and that's because it can't be/won't be in the multi lap format."

Why, exactly, do you think draft legal tri for age-groupers is a good thing? ;)


Listen - it can work - but the biggie is that you can't mix age-groups in the draft legal format and call it a race. Take cycling for example. Different categories are not permitted to co-mingle - if the Cat 1's pass the Cat 2's, the Cat 2's are prohibited from jumping on. It has to be the same in draft legal tri.


So if the event has to be "protracted," so be it. If they do it, I'm hoping that they do it right.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

"I don't think it's a cop-out, just a different Idea."

Could be, and time will tell. If it happens and a reasonable amount of thought goes into making it a legitimate race (which is possible in draft legal tri) - then I'll take back my "cop-out" opinion.


But these words, if accurate, don't leave me very optimistic.

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

awesome! I always look up to Joe Bonness.

from a social sciences point of view, I think the difference from this year and last year was not any new system, more motos, new rules, etc. Just the difference between firmly, fairly, and unemotionally giving out penalties rather than "breaking things up".

Also the male/female swim start split.

no one got hurt and the WTC brand was not injured... please continue to encourage dispassionate enforcement of the rules!

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

there was actually a death for the first time in October at the Cozumel HIM but that is WTC and non-drafting, so at drafting races, not that I know of.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

I was one of those 8 men in Detroit and they ran us with the EDR athletes. I tried to get my friends to sign up but they were afraid of the lap out rule which they did not enforce. My goal was to not get lapped and I did it, just barely, but the 4 guys behind me didn't make it (they were not taken out of the race. They announced just before the race that they were not going to enforce it and it was a non-issue because they kept such a close watch on the Transition area.

Now if they had said they were not going to enforce it well before the race, I could have had a few athletes sign up with me.

After the DL race they ran the AG race, they also rode through the hot transition area on their laps. It was a relatively small race and even the AG athletes had no problems riding through.

I hope the race gets bigger next year and I'm planning on doing it. I'm also planning on spending much more time in the pool this winter.

jaretj

In all this, has it been announced where the Oly/Sprint AG world championships will actually take place in 2016? That is going to impact my race goals/schedule for 2015...

\Not yet

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Just got from USAT


2015 Draft-Legal Races
Qualified certified race directors now have the opportunity to include NCAA draft-legal format races if they meet the criteria outlined below. Only eligible race directors will be considered for any and all draft-legal races. Sanction applications must be properly submitted in the sanction system 90+ days in advance and must go through an extensive approval process via Craig Hanken, USA Triathlon Draft-Legal Event Specialist. Draft-legal races must be approved for draft-legal status and also have USA Triathlon sanction approval from the Event Services team. Athletes participating in an NCAA draft-legal race will be ranked in the cross country style (low points are favorable) and not ranked via the USA Triathlon National Ranking System.

Prerequisites to host a draft-legal race in 2015:

• Must be a USA Triathlon Certified Race Director
• Must have five years of triathlon event management experience
• Must be sanction-compliant for all prior and current events
• All hosted multisport events must be sanctioned by USA Triathlon
• Submit sanction application at least 90 days prior to event
• Event must take place between Sept. 1 and the last weekend in October (10/31/2015)
• Distance must be specifically 750m swim, 20k bike, 5k run - adjustments may fall within 150m on the swim, 1k on the bike and 20m on the run
• Must have a looped bike and run course which is closed to traffic

Additional criteria must be met for women's NCAA draft-legal races. Women's NCAA criteria and requirement questions can be directed to Jess Luscinski, NCAA & Collegiate Triathlon Coordinator at Jess.Luscinski@usatriathlon.org.

Race directors with additional draft-legal questions can reach out to Craig Hanken, USA Triathlon Draft-Legal Event Specialist at Craig.Hanken@usatriathlon.org.

Questions on the sanction application can be directed to eventservices@usatriathlon.org.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Rumors, just rumors - Mexico? Very little validity in that, just a rumor and what better place to spread a rumor than the internet (I think that's why it was invented, actually).

Read that, Dave. That's about including NCAA portions of races. I suspect draft legal races for people who aren't collegiate women will come soon and probably follow a similar process, but this isn't it.
Glad to see they are saying it must be closed, looped course.

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IG: idking90

2 rumors have been floating around, Mexico or south Africa.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Yes, however we're getting to this place now where DL courses are needed - for collegiate women, for junior development and for age group nationals/worlds qualification. This helps justify an RD in creating that opportunity. If it were just one of those entities there would be no reason to do it (save for the love of the sport). Even with all three categories in need of racing opportunities the numbers will be very small and hard for an RD to make any profit on this type of race alone.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

^^ Bingo! Agree completely.

I agree completely. I was in Detroit, where the men's EDR/AG combined race had about 35 total, and the women had only 10. Fortunately there was a healthy nondraft race to subsidize us.
I did see at Rev3 Rush that it can absolutely work, especially if athletes get the chance to try multiple times and it's short, because then they just realize how fun it really is.

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IG: idking90

I had heard South Africa... I'd be more excited about Mexico, as it's more realistic for me in terms of travel. Though there is that pesky business of qualifying, either way. ;)

"My worry is the creation of local and regional DL races ..."


"That's what we CANNOT have, we cannot have a situation where we ask an RD to put on a DL event and then 1 person shows up."

I don't know if you were at Rev3 Rush in Richmond earlier this year, I thought it was a great attempt to expand the sport, in the direction of DL for age-groupers and also a different format. I liked the way they framed the DL concept, as something that was just part of the race without pushing it as the "main" feature. There were some logistical concerns that were discussed in this forum, but overall I thought the event was phenomenal.

Now, the level attendance wasn't the greatest, which, as you imply, will kill a race eventually. The event is being planned again for next year, hopefully participation will increase.

I didn't say what you quoted.

jaretj

There are already disadvantages and advantages to different waves in non draft racing for overall awards. This year at sprint nationals I went in the first wave and lead the entire race. Anyone staring in waves behind me would have had the advantage of drafting in the swim and passing slower athletes throughout the ride vs my true solo effort. In a wave-start race the overall awards are already pretty meaningless, in draft-legal it would be stupid to have an overall award at all. You can only race the people you are racing against. I am a fan of making DL a separate event and keeping the non draft sprint, but maybe have categories instead of age groups for the DL race to allow the best athletes to race each other.

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Powertap / Cycleops / Saris

Sorry, the reply was meant for Ian Peace, I was quoting him. I probably saw his message in your reply to him and accidentally replied to you.

I think the addition of more draft-legal races is great for the sport and I think it can make for a fun alternative at Nationals/ Worlds.

A couple thoughts are:
* no way that USAT is going to replace current sprint nationals. Too many participants would be lost (and their revenue). I think adding DL waves would be more practical.
* I think a "normal" course would work best, as I don't think it's practical to have a "crit" style format, with a large number of waves, and the problems of intermingling of packs.
* I don't think it's going to look anything like pro ITU racing. Thinking that is the same as thinking that a Cat IV race is going to have tactics similar to the TdF. The gaps in swim are going to be much larger (even in large AG's) and many people would probably still ride faster solo, than they would in a small pack. I don't know how many people have ever done a team time trial, but it takes some practice and cooperation to go significantly faster. Many people will also want to sit-in, and not work very hard.
* At a national-type race, I don't think you can allow age-groups to intermingle, but that shouldn't be an issue in a sprint race, with 7mins (or so) between waves. It will be very hard to officiate that aspect, although if officials no longer need to call drafting, blocking, etc, that could be more of a focus.
* At regional type races, I think you are going to have to allow multi age-group waves and intermingling. Just not enough people to make a reasonable field. Making draft-legal type festivals, with Collegiate and Junior options (maybe DL Duathlon?) would be a great way to drive participation.
* It's hard to imagine having very strict standards for qualification. The only nationals you have to qualify for now is Oly Distance. Safety will be a bigger concern in DL, but could probably go with a simple "check box": have you done a DL triathlon or mass-start USA Cycling event?
* I'd prefer that equipment rules would be same as for other ITU events, but could see a reasonable rule being: no riding in aerobars while in the pack. Easy to enforce and requiring much less equipment.

Is the word that a DL sprint race at World's will replace the non-drafting sprint? It seems like they'd be risking losing some participation (and revenue). I know drafting is more common and accepted in other countries, but the US team would be drastically smaller.

My strength is typically my cycling and I'm an above-average swimmer but I think DL would be great to try. If I look at my race at '13 Sprint Nationals, I think there's a good chance I would have finished higher in a DL format, even with a poor run.

Now what would really be interesting is to do a draft-legal Aquabike, or tri with Swim-Run-Bike format!

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John Hartpence, Athlete & Coach
tripence@gmail.com, @coachpence

New info on USAT site: The 2015 USA Triathlon Sprint National Championships in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, will remain a non-drafting race in accordance with USA Triathlon Competitive Rules. If a sprint draft-legal triathlon is added to the 2016 ITU World Championships schedule, a separate qualifier will be held to allow athletes to earn spots on Team USA for that particular event. Details regarding such an event would be made available following the official ITU announcement of the 2016 Age Group World Championships, inclusive of full details regarding format.

Additionally, USA Triathlon has asked the ITU to consider continuing to hold the traditional non-drafting sprint event even if a draft-legal event is added to the program. This would allow the top finishers from Sprint Nationals in Milwaukee to qualify for Team USA as has been done in the past.

http://www.usatriathlon.org/...hips/event-info.aspx

Nice catch Mark. Thanks for keeping us up to date.

That news will satisfy many who plan for Sprint Nationals to be a season peak. Now we'll have to wait for ITU to make a firm decision on Sprint Worlds. My guess is that decision will come out in tandem with the location.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Yep, basically what I was told by all the USAT folks at Edmonton and what I have tried many times to say here.

As I said, too many are putting too much energy into this. Until ITU gives details, time to relax.
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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

That was your 8th posting (of 62) on this thread. Are you really accusing others that they "are putting too much energy into this."? :)

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John Hartpence, Athlete & Coach
tripence@gmail.com, @coachpence

Yep, :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep