I've passed on two CompuTrainers this week for less than $500 each, so they're definitely out there. You just have to use the search engines and a little persistence. I have 9 (6 in service and 3 as backup) and paid less than $600 for each of them. As far as road feel, I believe CompuTrainer has the algorithm that delivers the most realistic road feel. It's a given that their hardware is bulletproof, and you already know they hold their value. Only you know if it's worth the hassle to pull the rear wheel for the Kickr, deal with the greasy chain (if you keep your bike squeaky clean, not so much of a problem), or would rather just put the bike in the CompuTrainer stand. Each has it's benefits, and it's really a personal choice. Whether the Kickr will hold up over time or hold its value is yet to be proven, but it seems like it's pretty sturdily built.

Mostly, folks bang on CompuTrainer because of the older software and perceived shortcomings of RacerMate One, not their hardware. Kinda like the PC to Mac debate. I personally run PerfPRO Studio (in addition to an occasional session with RacerMate One and ErgVideo) and I can upload almost any course and be riding in minutes. TrainerRoad is good for a lot of folks, but I personally prefer to own the software. Again, personal preference.

As for rear tires blowing, once we learned that when riding a power (in erg mode) profile that speed and shifting did not matter, we haven't blown a tire since. That is, for power workouts we ride at 15-17 mph, and tires hold up very well. For riding courses where shifting and speed matter, you have a be a bit more cautious, and a dedicated trainer tire (or tire/wheel combo) is warranted.

Do the KICKR trainers also do the diagnostics on the pedal stroke as the computrainer does? This was one other potentially deal breaker I forgot to mention. Having a way to see how poorly or good my pedal stroke is and where the dead spots are seems like a good way to improve my overall performance.

I think the lack of available units on the used market is due to being located in Canada. I've found only a single used unit for $850 CDN before shipping from Vancouver to Toronto. God only knows what shipping will be for something that large and heavy. Seems as though people who purchase these things hold onto them with a death grip haha Another indicator that it may be the better way to go.

Thanks for all advice.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

As far as I know, SpinScan is proprietary to CompuTrainer. Last time I chatted with them about it, they were telling me the tremendous amount of data and sampling that it took to generate the graphic (or bar chart, depending on modality). That's why it only works using the wired cadence sensor, as ANT+ just can't move that much data fast enough.

Yep, shipping to/from Canada can be a problem, as you already know. Good luck, and keep looking!

I do not believe there are any studies that have shown that attempting to modify your pedal stroke outside of just cycling more have produced any measurable difference in efficiency and/or power. Based on this, I am not sure that pedalling analytics such as this should be a deal breaker. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong, as I would be interested if this is not the case.

Thanks

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On the internet, you can be anything you want. It is a pity so many people choose to be stupid.

And if you find that your torque is not perfect what you're going to do? I really doubt real life torque shape is that much of a value except maybe when you're recovering from a trauma. I used to have nearly perfect left/right balance but it all went haywire after I hurt my leg. Took me about 2 months of cycling to get it back to what it was. But I was not doing anything special to correct the balance. It just slowly repaired itself as my power went back to what it used to be before the trauma. So the overall power is way more important I think.

For what it worth here is the pic of real time torque (not from Computrainer) that shows my torque starting from initial acceleration. You can clearly see that one leg is weak:



As for KICKR vs Computrainer, my vote goes for KICKR. Both units are very solidly built but KICKR has more inertia (feels more "real"). Also I am not a big fan of erg mode at all. I am riding "real course" or whatever you'd like to call them videos and when the road goes up Computrainer starts to eat tires like crazy. None of those feeld "realistic" if the road grade goes above 4% (that is subjective of course).
--------------------------------------------

I've had a CT for about 3 to 4 years now. Originally got so I could recover from an ACL repair and wanted to see power from each leg. My power is pretty equal now, generally running within a few percentage points. I don't know how much of that is due to me using spinscan and how much is just natural recovery.

However, one of the things you can do with it is to see how changes in pedaling can affect power output. While I haven't made changes to this point, after using a power meter on my bike outside, I think I can pick up some significant power by doing a few things with my pedal stroke. I now need to verify that on the trainer and see what doing that does to HR and fatigue levels.

I'm currently reading "Wheelmen" and in that book, Eddy B. talks about when he first started training Americans and how inefficient their pedal strike was (all push down, no pull back, no pull up, no early push over the top). So, I'm going to start focusing on those things and see what I can do. Plus, with the CT, if you do single leg drills, you can see what your power is pushing down versus pulling up.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

Unless there is something really grossly wrong with your pedaling (should not be the case for any decent cyclist) your average power will stay the same. And if you believe that pedaling in some particular way will increase your AVERAGE power you are most likely making a mistake

If you can be patient and score a used Computrainer, the bulletproof hardware paired with TrainerRoad is a very potent combo tool. That is, you have the advantage of the best hardware paired with the best and constantly evolving training software.
You can default back to the Computrainer anytime for the advantages of spinscan or some other feature -there are lots.

Where do you guys find used computrainers, other than ebay? Not seeing anything in local craigslists.

There are tools for craigslists that allow you to search as much of the US as you want.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I purchased a KICKR because it's very good 2014 technology, whereas the computrainer is very good 1991 technology.

Don't get me wrong, computrainer is great, but you have to deal with wires everywhere and proprietary software. Wahoo is much more open and therefore easy to integrate with 3rd party products. For most kickr owners, they use TrainerRoad.com, but over time there will be tons of apps and tools that integrate with the KICKR, and the Computrainer will still be the same. Bet on the future, get the KICKR!

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Wires everywhere is definitely hardware. So is the Bluetooth and ANT+ transmitters in the kickr

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Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

Swapping the cassette is the same difficulty on the KICKR as it on a wheel, very easy for anyone with the tools and with erg mode you could always use the 10spd bike with an 11spd cassette if you stayed in one gear. I've put thousands of miles on my KICKR and its still going strong, while not quieter than a computrainer the noise profile has less low frequency noise making it quieter a room or floor away.

Who ships on craigslist? That's pretty much step 1 in avoiding scams on craigslist as a seller.

Man, there are lots of ways to buy stuff.

I bought 2 velotrons way out of state from me. One I drove like 8 hours to meet him half way. The second I have it trucked to me. Depending on what you are buying.
some risks are worth taking.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I see what you're saying but that means the computrainer will still be getting results no? I mean it has been one of the most popular training tools for any serious cyclist for a while now. I see merits in each system and if what I am hearing is true the pedal stroke analysis isn't going to make any difference, the cassette in erg can stay 11sp with the 10sp bike, they both work with trainerroad.com ... Now it's a used vs new thing. If I can't find one in 4 weeks I will have to go forward with one or the other new.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

yeah I see people getting amazing results with the CT. In fact, today it may even have the edge because you've got things like the course simulations. Plus if you can get one second hand for a good deal, even better. The reason I chose Kickr though is because I saw evidence of faster innovation in a short space of time, so it was kind of a leap of faith, but for sure the CT guys may very well wake up and do something cool

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____________________________________

Are you ready to do an Ultraman? | How I calculate Ironman race fueling | Strength Training for Athletes |

How funny! I have 6 CompuTrainers in my basement and not a wire showing. ANT+ for speed, cadence, and HR. Running PerfPRO Studio (non-proprietary), ErgVideo (non-proprietary), in addition to 3CD, Real Course Video, and RacerMate One (proprietary). Hmmmm, I can run any course, any place, anything recorded on MapMyRun/MapMyRide, and still preview/ride a lot of IM courses with Real Course Video.

I'm not against Wahoo and their product, and I'd suggest it's a good fit for a lot of folks. If you've tried both, you'd know...

I have a Kickr and can't say anything bad about it, does what it's supposed to do.

I could be wrong, but I think perfpro software allows you to 'ride' .gpx files with a Kickr?

Agree on the wires.

"Wahoo is much more open and therefore easy to integrate with 3rd party products"

This is true. However another way of saying this is "Wahoo supply no software, to get any real functionality you need to shell out at least $12 dollars a month for a subscription based service.

When the software comes out, and is free, then I'd say "wow wahoo is a must" until then, not interested.

I own a KICKR but have ridden a CT a few times. Both are great choices. I like the open and current platform (for software choices) of the KICKR better. I also just keep a bike on it most of the time so I can get on and be going in less than a minute. No worrying about tire pressure or tire wear.

With the CT each time I've ridden one it had to be calibrated and it took 10 minutes or so and a few times to get it right. Some user error I'm sure, though I was just the rider and not the person setting them up. I know others will say it's not difficult and you can just be warming up while waiting. That is fine but it seems like a pain to deal with.

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Loud pawls save lives

Ive ridden the CT before and it took sometime to calibrate. The wires were a turn off for me. Changing tire in the off season is one more job and $$$. I went with the kickr. I just leave my bike on it and plug it in when I ride that day. I run the perfpro and works well with the kickr and sufferfest. It can also be controlled by your iphone or android. Lots of 3rd party tool and probably more coming up.
I also scored this kickr in Kijiji toronto for $700. The unit looks unused cause the cassette looks untouched. So if you just sit there and wait, itll come around. Good luck

Keeping my backup bike on the trainer was major selling point for me on getting the Kickr without the use of a back tire involved. The drive chain is clean so the whole setup remains clean with just a light oil on the chain now and then. I was just too nervous after reading so many people having trouble with tires and flat using the CT. Maybe it is not as bad as what I have read. One friend that uses a CT on a regular basis told me he had to change 3 flats in the same week. Since I have never used one I don't know and it just made me too nervous after hearing or reading those kinds of issues. I am very time crunched and need to get on and go.

For the Kickr I am not sure about accuracy as I am reading more forum threads these days with unhappy Kickr users stating a difference with their power meters. I tested mine against my TT bike equipped with a Quarq and it was very close on that particular test day. I am getting into the groove for a certain warm up protocol for the equipment before doing a spin down and then I begin the training session. It works for me too since I need a little extra warm up before starting a high intensity session.

Having never used the CT I am not sure what I am missing when it comes to the pros and cons. I do know that the Kickr has been one of the best purchases I have made for training and that is because I do the majority of my training inside year round because of where I live and my work schedule. I was very happy using the combination of eMotion rollers and a Powertap G3 for inside training for a couple of years, but I haven't touched the rollers in a month and I actually look forward to getting home to train on the Kickr. I just hope it holds up for many years.

Well put ... the thread took on a life of it's own and has made the decision even tougher haha. I think I'll let it come down to economics and see which I can get my hands on for less money. Why not save where I can to keep some dollars in the bank to spoil myself on a new set of wheels etc. It seems as though both are good choices to accomplish the task at hand, becoming a better cyclist over the winter months.

Thanks to everybody who gave their input on the topic.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

"not a wire showing".... Don't you at minimum have to have a cable from the load generator to the controller?

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I wanna go fast!

I just smile when I see these threads. What is better, a Ford or Chevy?

When I first got my CT, I wanted to be able to ride courses, ride on line against others, etc. So, I bought sw to play with these things. But after a while I realized who needs all those toys? For years now all I do is basically
erg stuff. No wasted energy. Just let the trainer kick my butt. I need no fancy sw. The existing sw does all I need to get my workouts done.

But, it was product X in the past that was going to kill the CT, then KICKR now, and tomorrow, product Y.

I just keep pedaling away.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

100% agree. We have a first generation Tacx Fortius which has a wired (serial-to-usb) connection as well as well as a 1st gen Tacx Bushido which depends on a proprietary ANT+ communication protocol. My wife rides the Fortius and other than the occasional flat tire as a result of the tire wearing out from all the heat generated by the tire/roller interface, rarely has issues with the trainer. I ride the the Bushido which can be used stand-alone or 'paired' with the Tacx Training Software (TTS) via the wireless handlebar controller. Problem is the handlebar controller is prone to losing connection with the PC due to interference from things like the floor fans we use when training. To combat such issues with the wireless handlebar controller, I use a 2-meter USB extension cable that allows me to place the Garmin Micro ANT+ dongle directly underneath the Bushido handlebar controller which improves reliability of the connection with the PC.

Of course since the Bushido handlebar controller is wireless, it requires two AAA batteries and while the controller display does have a battery life indicator, the indicator is not visible when connected to TTS so unless I am ultra vigilant, I inevitably end up having the controller disconnect and flash a low battery prompt a moment before the handlebar controller powers off in the middle of a training session! It typically takes about 10-15 minutes to get everything setup - to include powering on PC's, starting TTS, pumping up tires, and pairing HR monitors which is why I am contemplating replacing both trainers with Wahoo Kickrs, O-Synce ANT+ remote controls, and PerfPro Studio. This would not only eliminate issues with pumping up tires and tire wear, but would also allow me to run both trainers from one PC. Of course even though the hardware I am contemplating is wireless, I suspect I will still need to use USB extension cables for the ANT+ stick to prevent interference with for the ANT+ connections.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You do have to calibrate the CT, however, for me it was just part of my warmup. I'd do the roll down 2 times during my warmup (could really do it just once at 15 minutes but it takes 2 seconds so I dial it in after 10 minutes).

I haven't had a flat on my CT in over 15 years of use. I really don't understand how folks are getting flats on the CT, maybe they are tossing around beer bottles in their basement or using crappy tubes :)

We are using dedicated trainer tires - Tacx, Kenda, Vittoria, and lately Continental - with our Tacx Trainers, but it is not so much a flat tire as a failure of the tire/casing most likely as a result of the friction of the tire/roller interface. The tires are inflated to ~120 psi otherwise the tire slips and over the course of 50-60 minutes, the heat appears to cause defects in the casing to further deform or the cords in the casing simply stretch/break and then a large bulge forms on the outside and that tire is done!

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

You're exactly right, of course. As we get older, the lure of more and more choices fades to what works with the time we have. If if were just me, n=1, I'd do what you do and let the CT or Kickr kick my tail in erg mode. But with multiple session for multiple riders, I'm (somewhat) forced to stay abreast of the options and features that the riders want. Oh, well, they keep me banging along, too.

BTW, I drove Fords for 40 years (they were best!) and then I bought a Chevy (they're best!). Let the debate continue.....

Luckily for me, I do not have to compare either. Once I got a Velotron to use, there is no comparison to the other two. :o)

And my best car is the one I drive now, I borrow it.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Ah, Velotron, dream machine! Funny, I don't think I've ever seen a discussion or thread about comparing the Velotron to anything else. It's just so "right" that it will likely be the gold standard forever. If Chuck and his team would give it a bit more compatibility with PerfPRO Studio or ANT+ or multi-rider (who could afford that?), I'd buy some. I'm envious of you!

I've only ever used 2 tires on mine. I had a Michelin (can't remember which model), till Continental came out with the original Orange home trainer tire. I've had the latter on for about 8-9 years (I forget when they first came out).

I do NOT inflate to 120. That is just too high. Higher pressure is actually worse than keeping at 100 as there is less surface area contact. I never had any slippage even keeping it at close to 2.00 for the press on force. I do clean the tire and roller off periodically with alcohol.

Well, you do have to compare your wallet size between the two:)

Yes, they are just amazing trainers. Since they have yet to get the new sw updated to fully work with the velotron, I have to use the old sw anyways which for what I do, works perfect.

I had welded up new seat and handle bar posts so I can set them up as either road bike configs or TT configs.

They have been very tight with not sharing anything on the velotron. (The CT stuff was reversed engineered). Now, one of the sw packages out there was supposed to be given the DLL's for
the velotron but when I tried it nothing worked. They never did get back to me.

I thought I got multi-rider working with my 2 velotrons, but not sure. I keep waiting for someone to move near me and we can train with both velotrons going at the same time.

I could have bought a new one for 4K and kick myself I did not do it.

One of these days maybe they will open their velotron sw up. I just do not see how they have anything to lose.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This is why I am always looking to buy more. Once in a while they get put up for a price one cannot resist. Now, what would I do with 3 in my pain cave? Wife would kill me.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

When I was looking to take my indoor riding experience to another level, the Computrainer and Kickr were at the top of my list. Because I also wanted to use my beach cruiser which wouldn't work with the Kickr without major hassle, I was pretty set on getting a Computrainer until I had a chance to actually play around with a setup. The Computrainer was just so dated and such a turn off that I decided to go with the Kickr and continue riding my beach cruiser on my Fluid 2. I still might get a Computrainer if I can find a used one at the right price.

If I had 10 and 11 speed bikes, I'd only consider getting the Kickr if I was only going to use 1 of them on the Kickr. If I intended to occasionally use the other bike, I'd get a Computrainer.

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Nanoo Nanoo

LOL. You've been had.

The Computrainer serial connection is 2400 BAUD even over USB.
Telemetry updates are sent in blocks of about 42 bytes.

Mark

Sounds to me like Racermate should look for better software engineers! Were they also trying to sell you an Edsel?
While the previous comments regarding Spin Scan may have been true back in the day, I doubt that would come close to competing with ANT+ (ANT2) which has 8 channels running at 2.4 GHz!

So I know PerfStudio installed/running on a PC can pair/control a Kickr via ANT+ but can anyone tell me if this can be configured to work with the Kickr via Bluetooth or is Bluetooth strictly for iOS devices?

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Wrong. ANT+ only updates 4 times a second. It's not the quantity of data it's the frequency of the updates. To determine exactly where the crank is during a pedal stroke which takes less than a second it just can't be done with 4/sec updates. It's not that ANT+ couldn't do more frequent updates, they just chose not to in the current standards to save on battery life.

Wow that $6600 price tag is a biggie!

Of course, to put things in perspective, every nonserious triathlete (and most of the recreational triathletes I know) say the exact same thing about my Wahoo Kickr....

The free Wahoo app for the KICKR works very well.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I think you're boxing shadows my friend. I was talking about the Computrainer.
You are also conflating data collection with data transmission, they aren't the same. And certainly aren't the same on the CT.

FWIW, ANT+ can do transmission rates above 4hz and indeed the Kickr does -- the command channel used to send commands are sent at 16hz.

Mark

Do you buy your bikes at new list price? I sure do not buy most anything in life at list price. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have bought all of my triathlon gear new. Bikes, Kickrs, treadmills, etc. Nothing used.

Yes, I could go used as well. But I found that it took far too much of my time to be worth the money savings. For something as pricey as a Velotron though, I'd def consider used.

I bet most of the people here don't buy anything used either, for similar or other reasons.

I have used used a Kickr, so obviously a little biased. I have a Computrainer. Got it on Ebay for $900 (free shipping). Check on ebay as there are always a few up there. Sometimes they are as cheap as $750, but watch as the shipping could jump up another $100. If someone selling you a CT says the software is included...it is not. They might send you the discs but you have to register the software before you can use it. And the previous owner already registered it, so you are going to have to pay $60 to Racermate for another copy. Or go with another software (also $$) or you can download the old versions of Racermate from their website.
Also think about if you have a computer or laptop that you can easily hook it up to. I am an IT geek, so I had a spare HTPC that I installed Racermate on and leave in the basement to run the CT. So that could be extra costs. With the Kickr, double check to make sure you ipad/iphone or whatever will work with it as that could be extra costs too.

I really enjoy my CT. I use it 4x week in the winter and 2x week in the summer. Never popped a tire or had mechanical issues yet (1yr old). You do have to calibrate it each time you want to train on it, but as mentioned by another poster, I use that as my warmup. If you just want to ride it like a trainer on an easy day, you can even skip the calibration.

I dont think you could go wrong with either option. Probably comes down to costs. Trainer + Software + computer/tablet/etc.

There is a new "videogame" coming out that both of these should be able to use. Zwift where you can race other people around the world. Thinking about it, Ill start a thread on it if one doesnt exist.

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Jeff Abbott - @run1fast
jabbott@headsweats.com
Headsweats - Custom Team singlets $8 / Cycling Jerseys $25
Abbott Event Solutions - Brand Rep and Event Manager

They are both great systems and a significant step up from using a regular trainer. I'm partial to the CT but I know people who like the Kickr and get good use out of it. The only hesitation on the Kickr side may be that I've seen a variety of thread topics about trying to keep the calibration figures consistent over time or within a reasonable mark of another power meter. I'm sure there are some CT units that have drifted over time, but in general I get the impression that the CT is quite stable year over year in its power measurement. It's too early to pass judgment on the Kickr in this regard but its also too early to pronounce them as having the kind of long term reliability that the CT is known for.

I scored a Computrainer Pro model 8002


Includes the following:


All necessary cables and accessories
- cadence sensor
- Polar heart rate reciever
- power cord
- power supply
- handlebar controller mounting bracket
- Computer-To-Computrainer USB ComPort Cable
- manuals
- Front wheel Stand


Shipped to my door for $800.


My next question is is the software downloadable upon purchase or does RacerMate ship a disc? Would I be better off with RaceMateOne or ProPref Studio seeing as I'm a single person using this?

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

You get a CD with the Racermate One software on it, but then when the program runs it will download updates off the internet.

Racermate One software works pretty good if you have a decently fast computer. I usually run Sufferfest videos in a separate window and then run the Racermate One training software file for that specific Sufferfest video, so the wattage automatically changes to match the video. Works great. Then I download the workout files into Golden Cheetah.

Ergvideos are also very good, but they are pricey.

You know you can control the CT directly in GC.
In the GC training tab you click the CT, the Erg file and the video.
Press "Go" and it just works. At the end, the workout file is in GC.

So you have everything in one environment.

So to summarize buying a computrainer is only worth it if you buy a used one at a discount? Seems that most computrainer users (in this thread and others) would not purchase a brand new one due to cost. For those who are pro computrainer is that accurate?

I've been trying to decide what to buy (kickr, used computrainer, vs new computrainer). Buying a used one seems to be a bit of buyer beware, buying a new one seems roobish, and the kickr seems to be a good purchase but it may die out/have issues in the near future (similar to a used computrainer).

My logic :
If you buy used you will save how much ? $400-$500 ?
It will last you ten years. You saved $40-50 per year ?
New, peace of mind, knowing where it comes from. Is it worth $40-50 per year ?
The time you will spend on this thing...is peace of mind worth it ?

There is not a piece of equipment I own that I trust as much as my CT.

Zwift is the "Update on my ANT+ program (with pics)" thread.

Other CT options:

For simulated riding:
-Tour de Giro (I'm biased, I make it). It lets you race people online or offline, and is already out. Race any GPX course you want.
-Racermate One - Race any course profile offline.
-RealCourseVideo
-Veloreality

For computerized workouts:
-ErgVideo
-Trainerroad
-Golden Cheetah

That's all I can think of at the time.

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STAC Zero Trainer - Zero noise, zero tire contact, zero moving parts. Suffer in Silence starting fall 2016

Yes, but I could never figure out how to get the video to play in GC nor how to setup all the windows the way I want to display thinks like TSS, normalized power, and w/kg, which is easy to show in Racermate One.

I probably just need to sit down with GC for about 20 minutes and try and figure it out. Would be nice to not have to import the ride file after each ride.

I bought mine new 4 years ago and consider it a wiser long term investment than my bikes.

Well for me, owning a Computrainer worked out well. I have a dedicated exercise room with a trainer bike, so things like wires and the cadence sensor are not an issue. I also have a dedicated PC computer and LCD projector.

I'd probably get a Kickr if I owned an ipad and planned to move my trainer around on a regular basis. I'd also think the Kickr is a better choice if you plan to use your race bike and don't want to wear out your good race tire.

Or buy a new KICKR for the same price as a used CT.

The KICKR technology is also of this century.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Century? Are photos on paper or books better than the stuff on those 8 inch discs you cannot read anymore?

There is nothing the KICKR can do that the CT cannot do, for what I need, and better.

But I guess this just comes down to what is the best diet? KICKR fad diet? Well, since I never have to diet, the CT just works and works and works. I will leave the fancy stuff to others, unless I see them all beating
me in races.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

A lot of those guys beating you in races don't even use a CT and just ride a bike - gasp!

[/quote] A lot of those guys beating you in races don't even use a CT and just ride a bike - gasp![/quote]

There are many reasons to have a CT or KICKR or another trainer other than worrying about whether someone who beats you in a race trains on one or not.

A lot of those guys beating you in races don't even use a CT and just ride a bike - gasp![/quote]

There are many reasons to have a CT or KICKR or another trainer other than worrying about whether someone who beats you in a race trains on one or not.[/quote]
I use a Kickr myself - I was just responding tongue in cheek to the post directly above mine

If you receive discs for Coaching Software (CS), 3D, or MultiRider, there is no registration required and the software will run just fine. If you receive a Real Course Video, you will have to register it (and it really helps if the person you bought it from sends RacerMate an email saying they're no longer using it). If you receive a RacerMate One disc, you may have to re-register it (you'll have to email Roger at RacerMate and try) or buy another copy of RacerMate One ($59.95). There are no old versions of "RacerMate" on the website.

How many are beating me in my Age bracket let alone younger? Do a little age grading and give me results. Oh yep, all the ones with coaches also.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

You're confusing update frequency with transmission rate. The ANT+ transmission rate is irrelevant if it only sends it's data 4 times per second. As I said, it's done this way to conserve battery life. They COULD send updates 400 or more times per second but choose not to.

The CT being 2400 baud or 1200 baud is irrelevant. It can send more than enough data (transmission rate) over 400 times per second (update frequency) even if it was 1200 baud. The relevant point is it's sending cadence data over 400 times per second so the CT can keep track of exactly where the cranks are.

Note: I'm not saying spinscan is useful, I don't use it. BUT, in order for it to work it requires significantly more updates per second than ANT+ (current standard) provides (despite it's capability). The CT folks have stated they can't ANT+ support for spinscan until ANT+ sends more frequent updates.

http://www.racermate.net/...ilit=spinscan#p22342


Just to back up the bus a bit and elaborate. Your original response was "you've been had". That is incorrect. Your explanation for why was also incorrect, as you responded about block size. ANT+ while capable of updating frequently enough and enough data, the current standard only allows for it to send 4 updates a second. The CT, using a serial connection, has no such limitations on frequency of updates. Again, feel free to consult the link I posted and contact the CT folks if you believe current ANT+ cadence sensors are sending more than 4 updates every second.

Lets do the math -- and remember the baud rate is from a USB/Serial adapter, the UART in the computrainer

8bits + 1stop bit = 9 bits per byte
1200 baud = 133 bytes per second
42 byte message (6x7 including all other telemetry*) = 3 updates per second.

And you raise a good point, it is effectively 1200 baud (not 2400) because there is downstream data sending 56 byte command messages. Although the NXP 8C501 they use is technically capable of much higher rates. It is probably limited to such a slow rate because it only has 256 bytes of addressable memory to store all that massive amount of data in. To be fair it was developed almost 35 years ago, when 1k ram was a lot.

Lets not pretend this is advanced technology collecting large amount of data and updating at high speed. My toaster would run rings around it.

As for ANT+ 4hz to save battery, I spy a mains power block so thats not much of an issue on an electronic trainer.
Thats why the Kickr does and can handle higher rates via ANT+ and BTLE.

Cheers
Mark

* I reverse engineered it, with a little help.

What does the CT do better? My impression was you just throw it in ergo mode, so I'm ignoring the differences in simulation or video software. I would likely do the same, since I'd rather watch netflix, so I'm just wondering what else the CT does better.

I would say not a lot and I have both.

Kickr has;
- bigger flywheel and better road feel
- no wires and crap on your bike
- works with idevices, PC, Mac and Linux
- has firmware updates all the time
- can attach any bike regardless of wheel size
- no setup hassles, just pop off back wheel and go
- open apis no secret code
- is being developed actively e.g set resistance via PM readings
- supports bluetooth and ant+

CT has;
- spinscam
- Ergvideo
- no open api *
- handlebar controller

Mark

* the support outside of ergvideo and rm1 is despite not because of Racermate.

The referenced link returns a '404 Not Found' error! Isn't the 4x per second rate set by the profile on the device that is receiving the data? I ask because I seem to recall reading about some guys re-verse engineering the Tacx Bushido's proprietary ANT+ signals and when they pared an SRM with an ANT+ simulator to compare power data, the dump had significantly more data for the sample period than would result from a refresh of only 4-times per second.

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¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Both are excellent choices.

CT's are more practical for a multirider studio. Time required to make bike changes, proven reliability, robustness and flexibility is money in a studio environment.

Much easier to fit and remove a rider's bike than on a Kickr (something that matters when you are doing frequent bike changes), can use a wider variety of bikes (not confined to the drivetrain on the Kickr), and TT bikes in particular with their horizontal drop outs are a PITA when having to do a fast change over.

You've got to attach the cadence magnet and sensor on the CT, then run all the wires to the headunit.
I'd say that was a major PITA you don't have on a Kickr.

Only if you use crummy software.

The better software reads automatically ANT+ devices such as cadence units, HRM etc (even power meter's power if you prefer) once they've been set up initially.

should a computrainer studio/class be attended to understand the process and software, or is it easy to learn for a computrainer newbie?

There are a lot of variables to answer with that question, no matter what hardware/software combination you use.

I don't personally think it's difficult with the right software (e.g. PerfPro or Trainer Road) and that anyone with a modest level of computer use skill can set it up and get started, and learn the nuances and more advanced features at their own rate. Also, some software providers provide more assistance than others, be it via online support, telephone help, good instruction manuals, video tutorials etc.

RM1 only supports HR, the Computrainer doesn't do ANT+.
The fact another piece of software works with other pieces of hardware isn't relevant.

Again, the reason PerfPro, TraininerRoad, GC etc all work with the CT has *nothing* to do with Racermate, they keep the protocol secret.
It kind of pisses me off that a *positive* for their devices is that I reverse engineered the protocol !!!

Mark

Why would performing the task of unlocking something to make it more useful and/or easier to use piss you off? Did someone hold a gun to your head to do it? Presumably it was a voluntary choice you made.

Since the genie is out of the bottle, presumably the world is permitted to know that you can now readily use ANT+ devices in combination with your CT by using better software than RM1? No need to use clumsy cadence cables etc.

I did it because I had no choice, and lucky for you I did.
I would have preferred to contact the manufacturer and get a document or sdk.
That is what progressive companies like Wahoo are doing.
It is beneficial to them that people work with their devices and they recognise that.
I applaud them for it.

Mark

Don't get me wrong, I'm pleased you did, but why did you have no choice? Surely the choice not to do it existed?

a friend mentioned periodically racermate will offer $200 to 250 discounts on new computrainer systems. can anyone confirm? any idea when or what time of year this would occur?

Mark, were you aware of their plans to "open up" their API ? Will this help at all ?
Is the combination of CT power and Ant+ HR/cadence something that GC will support ?

Not sure what happened to the link, I had tested it and it was working. Try this one:

http://www.racermate.net/...ilit=spinscan#p22342

www.racermate.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5453&p=22342&hilit=spinscan#p22342

The answer in that link doesn't make much sense.

For one the question was about displaying cadence using existing ANT+ cadence sensor, not whether spinscan would work.

Secondly, the CT does not require a cadence sensor to do any physics calculations. It does and always will work sans cadence sensor. The wired sensor is only necessary for spinscan, which isn't a particularly useful app in any case.

Thirdly, sampling every 143 ms is only 7Hz, not 400Hz.

400Hz is sampling every 2.5 milliseconds.

Congratulations on your purchase. You saw a lot of messages about pros and cons (although I did notice that some were based upon some rather old information). In any case, enjoy.

Ultimately either (and other) Trainer can accomplish a lot of similar things. You'll need to figure out what you want to do with it. I was really keen on riding with other folks but once I found some software that'd do that for me I realized that I wasn't really interested.

I have a Computrainer. Had a problem with the load generator, sent it in and it was less than $100 to get it repaired (faulty circuit board). Over this past summer I haven't used it at all but now that we are into Fall and crappy weather (and reduced daylight hours), I'll be setting my Tri bike up on the CT. I originally bought it for my road bike (Ultegra 10 speed) and bought a cheap wheel for the rear and put on a training tire. Never had an issue. When I bought my NP3 Di2 Ultegra 11-speed this year, I again bought a cheap rear wheel and a trainer tire and mounted that.

My plan is to get my setup done and keep the NP3 on the trainer over the winter. If (in the unlikely case), that it gets nice out I'll take the road bike out although it is far more likely I'll take the mountain bike or commute bike out should it get OK.

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

doubtful over the winter since thats when most are buying trainers?

Why can't someone invent an indoor trainer which works and measures power accurately and reliably?

I can walk into almost any gym or rowing club in the world and get on a Concept2 rowing machine and train with accurate reliable power.

What is in your opinion accurate and reliable. Even Concept2 are not.

I thought Concept2 rowers did measure power accurately due to how they measure deceleration of the flywheel. They only measure power at he flywheel, not power at the handle and don't measure any power on the recovery of the stroke.

I wasn't aware Concept2 were inaccurate, please can you explain.

This study might help: https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/cpa/article/view/2893

Mmmm, worrying. This might explain why I can't produce as much power today as I could a few years ago.

Calls the whole sport of indoor rowing into question. I knew I was faster than Mathew Pincent all along. The machine I bought must have been a duff one.

I can't see the whole download, but are they saying the machine measured at the flywheel wrong or that one rower rowed in a way that although he put the power into the footplate and handle he didn't transfer that power efficiently into the machine?

The article is already stating it. Kickr also measures directly and is still not accurate around 2% as per Kickr statement. Also SRM (claimed as the golden standard) is not 100% accurate. But does it matter (?) as long as you have repeatable consistency with the equipment you use. For me important is to see the development over time and gather data.

It matters to me because I want to compare performance today on one machine against my performance last year, 5 years ago, 15 years ago on different machines in different gyms and labs and compare my performance to others performance.

So I want accuracy and repeatability across the board not just one one machine.

I thought Concept2 did that.

I have a concept2 myself but for me more important is what time did I do over 500mtr-1000-2000-etc instead how many watts did I pull. And by getting older your performances are anyhow going down :-)

Yes but times translate to watts and visa versa and I like to know exactly how much I'm slowing down.

Define how accurate/reliable. Alternatively take a look at something like: http://www.omega.com/pptst/tq513.html while paying attention to price and make a wild guess.

I am sure it was a typo but man was that a good one ;)

Are you saying there is an indoor trainer that measures power as accurately as a Comcept2 ?

If so which model?

I'm looking for accuracy of +\- 0.5%. Is that defined enough for you?


What I'm asking is is there an accurate reliable repeatable trainer or do I need to get an SRM Pro?

Quote about SRM Pro accuracy from SRM site:

"+/- 1% - scientifically proven". There you go. Not even the best can provide what you want. Instead of "scientifically proven" (there is no need for any science in here, just decent set of measurements/protocols on certified equipment) what I'd really like to see is the explanation of said claim, something like "all our measurements were accomplished on such and such CERTIFIED dynamometer under such and such conditions etc. etc. Until then ...

0.5% really? Keep dreaming...

There is already a DLL that works with both the Velotron and Computrainer. It's imbedded in the RM1 package and it's quite easy to use.

   
http://www.atm.ox.ac.uk/...hysics/ergometer.htm


By measuring the damping, the ergometer will automatically compensate for any of the following:
- Opening/Closing the vents to increase/reduce resistance
- Changes in friction on the flywheel bearings with time
- Changes in air pressure, density, viscosity etc.
- Environmental factors such as proximity to walls or other ergs
Things that are not compensated are:
- Changes in the chain friction
- Changes in the tension of the return mechanism
- Manufacturing variations flywheel moments of inertia (probably negligible)
- Changes in flywheel moments of inertia (unlikely with the solid flywheels)



It isn't unreasonable to want better than is currently available.

Thought SRM Pro was more accurate than +\- 1%.
Edit: checked, the SRM Track Pro, 8 strain gauges is accurate to +\- 0.5%.

Concept2 is accurate. See above. One old study and one athlete who seemed to row in a manner which showed differences between the Concept2 and the measuring devices does not prove they are not.


Don't get me wrong. I would get a lot of entertainment from exposing the Concep2 if they were not as accurate as claimed.

If your willing to spend huge $ I'm sure almost anything is doable. The more important question is what exactly do you hope to gain by 99.99% accuracy?

SRM is "listed" as +-1%. Quarq is listed as +- 1.5%. All of these devices using strain gauges are influenced in some way by temperature, so who knows how accurate they "really" are under normal operating conditions.

I can't help liking accuracy. I gave a watch to a charity shop on Saturday because it was gaining 60 seconds a day. Really annoyed me.

If you think about it, if the power meter you are using is 2% out, that is the equivalent of over a minute an hour. You wouldn't use a watch that inaccurate to time a training session - you might as well use bloody Strava.

SRM has been around decades now, and their Pro is accurate to +\- 0.5%, the competition should try to match or improve upon that. But it seems the public just wants cheap and will accept inaccurate data- hence the daft situation where people buy a power meter which only measures the power of one leg. That sums it up really, no one cares about accuracy, all they want is features and apps and software and pretty graphs to play with on computers. All daft when the data you start out with is garbage.

There was a chap on another forum complaining that the timekeepers were giving him the wrong time in a time trial because Strava said he was faster, what a twat, sums up things today

There is a big difference between a watch and a PM.

Assuming no temperature fluctuation, PM accuracy is within say 2%, but it's consistent. I.e. your power might be 205 watts and it's reading 201, but it will always read 201 when doing 205 watts. So it's consistent from workout to workout.

Further more there is no evidence that training at exactly 201 watts as opposed to 203 or 205 will make any difference (nor would you even notice). Now if you show up at the train station at 10:00 on your watch and it's really 10:01 you most likely will miss your train.

This.

Actually it is not. It depends on one's speed. So if you want to be "accurate" you could start right with your statement.

I don't want an argument with you. I should have worded that better. The point I'm making isn't that 2% less power would cost over 60 seconds an hour. I'm pointing out that no one would put up with a watch being 2% fast or slow, or scales which weigh 2% heavy or light. So why settle for a power meter which isn't accurate?

As to the time 2% misreading of watts might cost, it depends on the power, the weight of the bike and rider, the CdA the wind direction and speed, and the terrain how much 2% of power might cost over an hour.

I can't be arsed to work out the numbers but if you take 2% 250 watts that is 5 watts. So yes I agree my statement grossly exaggerated the time difference.

My point though is you are trying to measure small improvements (hopefully) in performance. A well trained cyclist may be working his balls off to get improvements of a watt or two a month.

I think you assume I'm having a go at the use of power meters, I'm not. I'm just frustrated by the unreliability, repeatability and inaccuracy of some power meters.

If you want to measure CdA you need accuracy.

I just wish power meters were more accurate and reliable. Perhaps I'm an obsessive about these things. Perhaps I'm asking for something which isn't possible technically at the present time.

I don't see why wanting things improved should attract ill feeling and I'm sorry if my comments annoyed you.

The point is that you have so many external factors affecting your performance at particular situation that 0.5% accuracy of power meter is statistically meaningless. The way you bounce of the saddle on this particular day at this particular grade/cadence/gear/temperature/etc/etc will likely affect the efficiency of converting the energy your body has to useful mechanical energy way more than 0.5%. So your 1-2 watt "improvement" is not statistically meaningful.



Of course it is possible. But be prepared to pay astronomical sum. I already showed the link to industrial the grade torque meters. You can see the price. And they're big and heavy and not very energy efficient. If they have to adapt it for use on a bike their already high price will skyrocket. So who is going to spend huge wad of money to develop product which is going to be purchased by whole 2 persons in the world?


You probably misunderstood me. There are no ill feeling at all. I am just trying to explain that your frustration might not have much real basis.

Yep see your point.

I get frustrated because the sat nav invariably tells me I'm going slower than the speedometer in the car. That really winds me up.

Car speedometers are legally required not to show 100 km/hr when in fact you're doing 105 for example. So they have safety margin built in and normally the speed they show is a bit FASTER then the real one. So again no need to get frustrated ;)

Might be a challenge on OS X and Linux !
And assume there is no documentation ?

Well I assume you know the car's speedo will always be wrong due to legislation requiring speedos to never report a speed under actual speed in many jurisdictions. How much it over reports speed depends on the manufacturer's calibration margin allowance to ensure they comply and of course the circumference of the tyres on the wheel used to measure speed. It's often over reports speed by as much as 5-10%.

But then that just brings up another point with your accuracy comments.

While your car's speedo may be inaccurate, it is very consistently so, always over reporting by a fixed percentage. If it does change, it does so only marginally with the evolutionary change in circumference of your tires with wear and inflation levels, and in a step change if you change tires and/or wheels and tires which have a different circumference.

Hence, provided you inflate your tires, you are able to consider your speed reading to be quite precise to whatever the unit limit on reading your speed is, and on a bike many a speedo with wheel speed sensor will read to within 0.1km/h or less than 0.5% precision, and do so with excellent consistency.

So you can say, provided you don't change tires/wheels, that making relatively comparisons with the speed measurements is still a very valid thing to do, even if the absolute accuracy sucks.

In this case, attaining accuracy is only a calibration adjustment setting away (e.g. a correct wheel circumference).

So the issue with power measurement is assessing whether you are dealing with an accuracy issue, and/or a precision issue. With high end power meters, they are generally good with precision/consistency, and also enable you to adjust the calibration so you can attain excellent accuracy as well.

But we also need to consider under what conditions of use and riding they are precise/consistent. Some struggle in some circumstances while being fine in many others.

It would be a challenge for OS X and Linux. Usage though is very straightforward as the interface is exposed.

LOL. It would be a hack, and redistributing copyrighted material would be illegal. And it will only work on Windows.
But aside from that it would be great.

How about you lose the attitude? You are coming across as extremely rude. First of all It's not a hack, it's the very same DLL that they use and can be used in the very same way that they use it. Who said anything about redistributing it? If you have their demo and you have it. Yes it will only work with Windows. That is the cost of Linux and OS X. So what is your proposed solution? .

If you don't redistribute the DLL your code won't work, how else would you make and sell software?
These days, actually for the last few years, multiplatform has become vital, not optional ; iOS, OSX, Android, RT, Linux .. Windows is the least concern.
Oh, I'm not being rude, you just don't like what I'm saying.


Well, the key point here is the CT is a closed system.
Avoid it if you can. Its old and tired technology with an unjustified premium price.

Mark

That would be a fair analogy if Apple were still selling these pieces of s*** and telling you they were cutting edge:



;)

Mark

Well your first point I agree with, it is currently a closed system and shouldn't be. Left over policies from a forgotten era. They can't possibly consider themselves a "software" company that they need to lock down the interface. If anything, that policy is costing them a lot of sales.

I don't agree though that it's tired technology. My CT is over 15 years old and is still working perfectly. Back when I got it, there was absolutely nothing remotely like it. Today there is plenty of competition, but just how durable are these new trainers? I know mine was good for over 15 years of use and likely many more. You can pick up used ones for a very reasonable price. I agree their prices for new are a bit high, although they will tell you they are assembled in the U.S if you are into that sort of thing.

So avoid? No, I wouldn't recommend avoiding them as long. Not till we see just how durable some of the new trainers really are. In the long run they could end up costing you more.

At least with Apple it is closed from a hardware perspective but their API's are available to anyone to write software. One could argue that's a selling point for them as you don't have to worry about hardware and drivers being properly designed.

Just dual boot with a windows partition.

You mean instead of the hideously over priced, under performing and unreliable "high end" Macbook they sold me, with office and basic file admin software that's a decade behind the times?

New technology does not mean it's better. Just look at power meters.

Does the Wahoo app also work with Android?

Yes.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

Looks like Racermate is/will be providing an open API after all and they list support for "Microsoft, Apple, Android and Linux".

http://reviews.mtbr.com/...rmate-interbike-2014