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Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming
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A short video from Brett Sutton.

Learn 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming from the guy who coached 8 swimmers on to the Australian Olympic swim team, and 24 swimmers on to the Australian national swim team; not to mention his 30+ triathlon World Champions and Olympic gold medalist.

Click here to watch
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Last edited by: robbie: Aug 1, 14 6:28
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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Nice link. His tips makes sense to me.

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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I never could catch what the third "R" is; it is clearly related to distance per stroke (dps) and turnover rate (spm), but I couldn't understand whatever word it is he's saying, as he seems to have a bit of an Aussie accent:) I did easily hear that the first 2 "Rs" are rhythm and relaxation.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Range
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Rhythm
Relaxation
Range - DPS
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Writerguy] [ In reply to ]
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Writerguy wrote:
Range

Ah, range, I see, that makes sense in terms of dps. Thanks!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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BMANX wrote:
Rhythm
Relaxation
Range - DPS

Range/DPS...ah, great, thanks!!!


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [BMANX] [ In reply to ]
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Can someone dumb it down for me? Why Range means DPS(I'm assuming DPS here means distance per stroke)?
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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The guy is completely off his rocker, but I have to admit he did make me laugh. I'll have to start listening to 'staying alive' by the BeeGee's before my swim sessions.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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From Brett in the video: "DPS KILLS EVERY Ag SWIMMER ALIVE!! (around 3:03)

Brett is obviously a kooky personality, but as an MOPer AGer trying to improve, I gotta agree with that - he goes through why right after in that rant.

Also love the "ahhh my arms are falling off!! waaaaah' rant antics at 5:00 making fun of how wussy AGers are about avoiding hard training and higher cadence LOL
Last edited by: lightheir: Aug 2, 14 4:59
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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Barlow wrote:
The guy is completely off his rocker, but I have to admit he did make me laugh. I'll have to start listening to 'staying alive' by the BeeGee's before my swim sessions.

Why?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
Barlow wrote:
The guy is completely off his rocker, but I have to admit he did make me laugh. I'll have to start listening to 'staying alive' by the BeeGee's before my swim sessions.


Why?

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You clearly don't have your American Red Cross Adult CPR certification.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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Nope.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [T-wrecks] [ In reply to ]
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T-wrecks wrote:
h2ofun wrote:
Barlow wrote:
The guy is completely off his rocker, but I have to admit he did make me laugh. I'll have to start listening to 'staying alive' by the BeeGee's before my swim sessions.


Why?

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You clearly don't have your American Red Cross Adult CPR certification.


"Optimal" chest compression rate = 100 compressions per minute
"Staying Alive" is taught as a way to keep that cadence...it's not in the manual or official.

"Another Bites the Dust" also works...but it is highly HIGHLY recommended NOT to sing that one out loud.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Brett rarely give bad advice when it s related to triathlon. i never seen a coach change so many non swimmer into decent close to front pack individual. he as a gift to build strokes for everyone. The message is always deliver in a very entertaining and color full way but if you can read pass that.... it s wise to listen and apply lots of his advise.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
Brett rarely give bad advice when it s related to triathlon. i never seen a coach change so many non swimmer into decent close to front pack individual. he as a gift to build strokes for everyone. The message is always deliver in a very entertaining and color full way but if you can read pass that.... it s wise to listen and apply lots of his advise.

I agree. What it was saying makes sense. His results speak for themselves. And I thought he was very entertaining with his delivery.

I loved he told folks that advice he gave for one person was only for that person.

Love your posts on triathlon advice also.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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Must be a heavy training day or Slowtwitch has grown up. Thread hasn't devolved yet.
Good advice. Thanks for videos.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Barlow] [ In reply to ]
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Great video

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [fascinating] [ In reply to ]
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fascinating wrote:
Can someone dumb it down for me? Why Range means DPS(I'm assuming DPS here means distance per stroke)?

My interpretation of his meaning of range is the ability to keep pulling as long as possible rather than stretching out to create artificial length and disturbing your rythym and relaxation. (hope that's not too confusing)

BTW how many people make sure there isn't any tension in their biceps on recovery phase?
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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Despite being good info and an awesome insight into Sutto world I couldn't help but think of this movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH3tG5t9cN0



Dynamic Athlete ProgrammingVIP Endurance Racing | Like us on Facebook Get Your Training Plan Here
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
, but I couldn't understand whatever word it is he's saying, as he seems to have a bit of an Aussie accent:) I did easily hear that the first 2 "Rs" are rhythm and relaxation.


What is his first language?
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [johnnybefit] [ In reply to ]
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johnnybefit wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
, but I couldn't understand whatever word it is he's saying, as he seems to have a bit of an Aussie accent:) I did easily hear that the first 2 "Rs" are rhythm and relaxation.

What is his first language?

I think English is his first language but he has a rather thick Aussie accent, or at least that was my impression in that video:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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THIS is why I got into teaching! Sutton validates the approach of sound core principals plus honouring individual differences to maximize individual performance.

http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
it s wise to listen and apply lots of his advise.

What he says makes sense, as someone who is a crappy swimmer. I try to keep up with good technique but it's unsustainable. However, if someone is a "better" swimmer by not reaching so far forward each stroke, is that person doomed to always be a relatively crappy swimmer or do you slowly try to bring that back? Is that a known strategy?
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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i m not sure i understand your question?

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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Rhythm first and then relax works on the bike as well. Did it today and had a great ride because of it. If you change range to technique in general, then you can apply it to all three sports.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [racin_rusty] [ In reply to ]
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That's exactly what I understood as well; and it applies to me; It is so hard to fix the mechanization I learned with Total Immersion.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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chris948 wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
it s wise to listen and apply lots of his advise.


What he says makes sense, as someone who is a crappy swimmer. I try to keep up with good technique but it's unsustainable. However, if someone is a "better" swimmer by not reaching so far forward each stroke, is that person doomed to always be a relatively crappy swimmer or do you slowly try to bring that back? Is that a known strategy?

No. If you work on rhythm and being relaxed, you can get in the volume and turnover for the other stuff to start fixing itself. People that swim by technique first swim like they are swimming while trying to read a car manual while driving at the same time.

Rhythm and relaxed gives sustainable speed. A body in water that has sustainable speed has different physics than a slow one. It's like how a rudder on a boat doesn't work unless the boat is going fast enough. It stays up better, the water feels different. In that environment, you get better feedback on what to do and what not to do and learn quickly how to keep getting faster and faster.

You want turnover to create speed. Focusing on technique slows down turnover by time taking to overthink. Turnover without being relaxed kills turnover by burnout. Do the first two Rs and everything else starts coming together on it's own.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Maui_] [ In reply to ]
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Maui_ wrote:
That's exactly what I understood as well; and it applies to me; It is so hard to fix the mechanization I learned with Total Immersion.

for the past three months I've had a coach who is an international level open water swimmer try to get me to unlearn the TI that I have ingrained in my stroke over the past decade. Not that TI didn't helped me but it certainly puts up a wall that stops any further improvement. After 2 sessions a week of one-on-one, the TI has gone and has been replaced... hopefully for the better

our work has a youtube block on our servers so I look forward to seeing the video this evening.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [texafornia] [ In reply to ]
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I am slowly circling in on this idea!! I have spent ~3yrs focussing entirely on technique, side kicking, Unco, Popov, catch drills etc etc. Never really got any faster. I went for some video analysis with a successful coach and had all these questions lined up about elbow angle and timing my rotation with my catch, and when to angle down my hand, and on and on. What she basically said to me was that I needed to stroke faster and improve my swim fitness!! And biliateral breathe more often to balance out my stroke.

Hard pill to swallow, being told that your issue is fitness when you can run 17 for 10k. I think we would all like to think that we are fit enough and that our problem is purely a technical one, and one day we will figure out the thing we are doing wrong and voila!! But what is gradually dawning on me is that I don't have swim fitness.

Going to be concentrating on turnover, rhythm and relaxation. A timely post for me.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
I am slowly circling in on this idea!! I have spent ~3yrs focusing entirely on technique, side kicking, Unco, Popov, catch drills etc etc. Never really got any faster. I went for some video analysis with a successful coach and had all these questions lined up about elbow angle and timing my rotation with my catch, and when to angle down my hand, and on and on. What she basically said to me was that I needed to stroke faster and improve my swim fitness!! And bilateral breathe more often to balance out my stroke.

Hard pill to swallow, being told that your issue is fitness when you can run 17 for 10k. I think we would all like to think that we are fit enough and that our problem is purely a technical one, and one day we will figure out the thing we are doing wrong and voila!! But what is gradually dawning on me is that I don't have swim fitness.

Going to be concentrating on turnover, rhythm and relaxation. A timely post for me.

Well, ummm, ya, there is a huge diff between run fitness and swim fitness. IME, a reasonably lean swimmer with some run aptitude can pick up running pretty quickly, but the runner has to work quite a bit to get the upper body swim-specific muscular strength and endurance to swim well. But, at least it sounds like you are on the right track now. I think you can really sum it up in "swim with a relaxed rhythm with whatever turnover rate is relaxed and comfortable for you", i.e. a guy who's 6'4" will likely have a slower turnover than a 5'2" girl.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [knighty76] [ In reply to ]
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knighty76 wrote:
I am slowly circling in on this idea!! I have spent ~3yrs focussing entirely on technique, side kicking, Unco, Popov, catch drills etc etc. Never really got any faster. I went for some video analysis with a successful coach and had all these questions lined up about elbow angle and timing my rotation with my catch, and when to angle down my hand, and on and on. What she basically said to me was that I needed to stroke faster and improve my swim fitness!! And biliateral breathe more often to balance out my stroke.

Hard pill to swallow, being told that your issue is fitness when you can run 17 for 10k. I think we would all like to think that we are fit enough and that our problem is purely a technical one, and one day we will figure out the thing we are doing wrong and voila!! But what is gradually dawning on me is that I don't have swim fitness.

Going to be concentrating on turnover, rhythm and relaxation. A timely post for me.

I think there's a lot of truth in what Sutton preaches often, which is 'think less, train and suffer more' in swimming. I for sure was hit by paralysis by analysis in swimming, and am just starting to commit to swim suffering for improvement.

I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
i m not sure i understand your question?

Basically, the third R seems to be an extension of the first two, if your range is uncomfortable then you will not have relaxation and your swimming is unsustainable. I for instance am told I have a decent swim stroke but after a few hundred yards, I'm very gassed. From what I can tell in his video, he is telling at least one person to stop worrying about DPS and do something that is actually sustainable swimming.

If extending your arm is hurting you (and I know in your video you downplayed it with the direction of keep your elbow out and start your catch quickly) then is that something that a coach will bring back slowly? For instance, the good swimmers that I would one day like to emulate do have good arm extension and very nice DPS.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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i think your first paragraph is very true. Get something sustainable...work on relaxing and having good rhythm and DPS is the last of your worry. You can become a very fast swimmer (18min/1500m) with short stroke but high turnover. So it s not essential and not sure you should try to emulate this either..

I personally never was able to sustain a long stroke but as Brett show, i was a perfect candidate for high cadence and that would get me in the 48min ironman group. I dont have a swimmer stroke...but i got fit, relax, and turn quickly!

like brett, i do not worry about long stroke until much later in development of most swimmers. I want a proper catch... but it doesn't have to be long, not for triathlon anyway.

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
Must be a heavy training day or Slowtwitch has grown up. Thread hasn't devolved yet.
Good advice. Thanks for videos.

You stole my thunder, I was just about to make a snarky comment on swimming tips for training with 14 year old girls.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Jamie wrote:
tucktri wrote:
Must be a heavy training day or Slowtwitch has grown up. Thread hasn't devolved yet.
Good advice. Thanks for videos.


You stole my thunder, I was just about to make a snarky comment on swimming tips for training with 14 year old girls.


"Comments are disabled for this video". Can't understand that at all. How on earth can we thank him
for this help if we can't comment on his video?

Find out what it is in life that you don't do well, then don't
do that thing.
Last edited by: pattersonpaul: Aug 4, 14 13:06
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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chris948 wrote:
jonnyo wrote:
i m not sure i understand your question?


Basically, the third R seems to be an extension of the first two, if your range is uncomfortable then you will not have relaxation and your swimming is unsustainable. I for instance am told I have a decent swim stroke but after a few hundred yards, I'm very gassed. From what I can tell in his video, he is telling at least one person to stop worrying about DPS and do something that is actually sustainable swimming.

If extending your arm is hurting you (and I know in your video you downplayed it with the direction of keep your elbow out and start your catch quickly) then is that something that a coach will bring back slowly? For instance, the good swimmers that I would one day like to emulate do have good arm extension and very nice DPS.

Well, if you can keep your good form right now for say 300 m, that just means you lack the swim-specific endurance to hold your stroke for 1500 m or longer. All you really need to do is swim more to develop your swimming endurance. Also, if you feel that a long stroke with very nice DPS would work for you, it's never too soon to start trying to emulate those swimmers whose strokes you admire. I did this myself years ago when my stroke was still in its "formative stages". As Sutton says, swim strokes are very individualistic and fast swimmers come in almost all shapes and sizes with many diff stroke rates:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.
Last edited by: BorrachoMatador: Aug 4, 14 21:16
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [BorrachoMatador] [ In reply to ]
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BorrachoMatador wrote:
Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.

So, just out of sheer curiosity, where do so many people get the idea that the exact hand angle, etc, are so important??? Is this part of the Total Immersion influence??? I had never heard such discussions until I got on ST about 2.5 yrs ago and, if you spend any time watching fast swimmers swim fast, not just warming up but swimming hard, it's pretty clear that almost all of them are throwing their arms over the water and pulling as hard and fast as they can, with very little regard for their "exact hand angle":)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I was lectured on my hand/arm positioning and high elbow at master swim, which is where I began swimming. I was also told to stretch out my stroke and reach as far as I could when i enter the water. Now from what I am seeing, I really shouldn't do any of that, and instead focus on being comfortable and turning over more often.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [BorrachoMatador] [ In reply to ]
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BorrachoMatador wrote:
I was lectured on my hand/arm positioning and high elbow at master swim, which is where I began swimming. I was also told to stretch out my stroke and reach as far as I could when i enter the water. Now from what I am seeing, I really shouldn't do any of that, and instead focus on being comfortable and turning over more often.

I think the middle ground is best, i.e. stretch out as far as you can comfortably, and then turn over as fast as you can while pulling all the way through your stroke. If you are pulling properly, you should be able to feel the water rushing down your thigh to your knee all the way to your upper shins. Assuming you have some good swimmers at your pool, just watch them and try to do what they do. Pick out the one with the stroke you like the best, the person with the stroke you would most like to emulate:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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White men can't dance cause they don't have rhythm, pretty funny. Probably great advice in the video, but he comes off really intimidating.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
BorrachoMatador wrote:
Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.


So, just out of sheer curiosity, where do so many people get the idea that the exact hand angle, etc, are so important??? Is this part of the Total Immersion influence??? I had never heard such discussions until I got on ST about 2.5 yrs ago and, if you spend any time watching fast swimmers swim fast, not just warming up but swimming hard, it's pretty clear that almost all of them are throwing their arms over the water and pulling as hard and fast as they can, with very little regard for their "exact hand angle":)

I know you were not directing towards me, but I see SO much of this specifically in the triathlon ranks. I'm a huge fan of mastering basic technical issues like balance, kick coordination and breathing skills, but there are a million ways to skin the cat of catch and pull. Technical honing will get some people this far>>>>>>, the next swimmer this far>>>, but at some point everyone has to be willing to do the good old swim sets that just work. There are so many spokes to the wheel that may get any given swimmer to their threshold for substantial gains with technical focus, but fitness has to take over the bulk of the work at some point. My coach took me off the big doses of technique work around 1:25ish scy pace, after that is was go until your eyes pop out. I'm not saying I don't still find little tweakages that make me marginally faster b/c there is always a new feel around the corner simply b/c the faster we go the more different the water feels. But the past 3 years I'd say 95% of my gains came from swimming til my toenails hurt.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [PaulAsay] [ In reply to ]
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PaulAsay wrote:
White men can't dance cause they don't have rhythm, pretty funny. Probably great advice in the video, but he comes off really intimidating.[/quote

thanks for sharing robbie good stuff..

So why do we see so few non white people in Swim World Champs finals ;-)


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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [PaulAsay] [ In reply to ]
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PaulAsay wrote:
White men can't dance cause they don't have rhythm, pretty funny. Probably great advice in the video, but he comes off really intimidating.

He's Australian. If life were a video game, Australia would be the last level.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
BorrachoMatador wrote:
Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.


So, just out of sheer curiosity, where do so many people get the idea that the exact hand angle, etc, are so important??? Is this part of the Total Immersion influence??? I had never heard such discussions until I got on ST about 2.5 yrs ago and, if you spend any time watching fast swimmers swim fast, not just warming up but swimming hard, it's pretty clear that almost all of them are throwing their arms over the water and pulling as hard and fast as they can, with very little regard for their "exact hand angle":)


I know you were not directing towards me, but I see SO much of this specifically in the triathlon ranks. I'm a huge fan of mastering basic technical issues like balance, kick coordination and breathing skills, but there are a million ways to skin the cat of catch and pull. Technical honing will get some people this far>>>>>>, the next swimmer this far>>>, but at some point everyone has to be willing to do the good old swim sets that just work. There are so many spokes to the wheel that may get any given swimmer to their threshold for substantial gains with technical focus, but fitness has to take over the bulk of the work at some point. My coach took me off the big doses of technique work around 1:25ish scy pace, after that is was go until your eyes pop out. I'm not saying I don't still find little tweakages that make me marginally faster b/c there is always a new feel around the corner simply b/c the faster we go the more different the water feels. But the past 3 years I'd say 95% of my gains came from swimming til my toenails hurt.

Ya, it is amazingly common to see this, which is why i ask why. Maybe it is TI influence, or maybe these guys are watching good swimmers when they are swimming very easy and trying to imitate that easy style. What they may not realize is that as the good swimmer starts to speed up, his/her turnover increases and usually it doesn't look quite so easy anymore. A few swimmers can swim sub-1:00 per 100 yd and look like they are not even trying, but that is only because they've done literally millions of yards to get to that point.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
BorrachoMatador wrote:
Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.


So, just out of sheer curiosity, where do so many people get the idea that the exact hand angle, etc, are so important??? Is this part of the Total Immersion influence??? I had never heard such discussions until I got on ST about 2.5 yrs ago and, if you spend any time watching fast swimmers swim fast, not just warming up but swimming hard, it's pretty clear that almost all of them are throwing their arms over the water and pulling as hard and fast as they can, with very little regard for their "exact hand angle":)

I know you were not directing towards me, but I see SO much of this specifically in the triathlon ranks. I'm a huge fan of mastering basic technical issues like balance, kick coordination and breathing skills, but there are a million ways to skin the cat of catch and pull. Technical honing will get some people this far>>>>>>, the next swimmer this far>>>, but at some point everyone has to be willing to do the good old swim sets that just work. There are so many spokes to the wheel that may get any given swimmer to their threshold for substantial gains with technical focus, but fitness has to take over the bulk of the work at some point. My coach took me off the big doses of technique work around 1:25ish scy pace, after that is was go until your eyes pop out. I'm not saying I don't still find little tweakages that make me marginally faster b/c there is always a new feel around the corner simply b/c the faster we go the more different the water feels. But the past 3 years I'd say 95% of my gains came from swimming til my toenails hurt.

I am going to alter my approach to swim wkouts because of good advice on this thread, but just to clarify, aren't you a single-sort athlete? My apologies if I'm misremembering anothe post of yours on another thread . . .

_____________________________________
What are you people, on dope?

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [scofflaw] [ In reply to ]
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scofflaw wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
BorrachoMatador wrote:
Quote:
I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.


This is EXACTLY me. This is only my 3rd season and I have been stuck on 1:50 p/100 in races with minimal improvement from stroke mechanic changes. It's been frustrating as I am seeing significant gains on the bike, and then maintaining my run fitness (originally started out as a runner). I have thought for a long time it's been my mechanics... I am going to try swimming faster, and quit worrying about the exact way my hand enters the water and if my elbow is perfectly in position, etc.


So, just out of sheer curiosity, where do so many people get the idea that the exact hand angle, etc, are so important??? Is this part of the Total Immersion influence??? I had never heard such discussions until I got on ST about 2.5 yrs ago and, if you spend any time watching fast swimmers swim fast, not just warming up but swimming hard, it's pretty clear that almost all of them are throwing their arms over the water and pulling as hard and fast as they can, with very little regard for their "exact hand angle":)


I know you were not directing towards me, but I see SO much of this specifically in the triathlon ranks. I'm a huge fan of mastering basic technical issues like balance, kick coordination and breathing skills, but there are a million ways to skin the cat of catch and pull. Technical honing will get some people this far>>>>>>, the next swimmer this far>>>, but at some point everyone has to be willing to do the good old swim sets that just work. There are so many spokes to the wheel that may get any given swimmer to their threshold for substantial gains with technical focus, but fitness has to take over the bulk of the work at some point. My coach took me off the big doses of technique work around 1:25ish scy pace, after that is was go until your eyes pop out. I'm not saying I don't still find little tweakages that make me marginally faster b/c there is always a new feel around the corner simply b/c the faster we go the more different the water feels. But the past 3 years I'd say 95% of my gains came from swimming til my toenails hurt.


I am going to alter my approach to swim wkouts because of good advice on this thread, but just to clarify, aren't you a single-sort athlete? My apologies if I'm misremembering anothe post of yours on another thread . . .


Yup you have the right! I bagged it after 23-24 years of on and off again with horrible knee problems. Not to mention getting rear ended by a drunk driver and lingering back issues post surgery. Injured....to back to cycling....back and forth. Just tired of it being hurt all the time. I swam like a douche bag in my triathlon days really b/c of laziness. I had heard the right things from time to time, but I always made some excuse as to why I didn't have the need or the time to address some basic skills. It wasn't until I went full swim focus that I did it. Took me a solid 6 months to nail those things down so they were on auto pilot. Triathlon wold have been so much more fun had I done that decades ago.

At least in my eyes there really isn't any difference in the need for these skills whether one is a single sport pool swimmer, triathlete only or an open water fiend. If a swimmer will get a reign on their balance, coordinate some kind of kick and get their breathing done in time so as not to disrupt rhythm they can really have a lot of fun in the water. Until then it just sucks. Odd as it may seem once you get to that point and you look at the workout for the day it looks much less daunting that it used to b/c you are not fighting the water so much. Sure, it still hurts, but mentally it's so much more doable.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Aug 5, 14 8:09
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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I swam like a douche bag in my triathlon days really b/c of laziness. I had heard the right things from time to time, but I always made some excuse as to why I didn't have the need or the time to address some basic skills. It wasn't until I went full swim focus that I did it. Took me a solid 6 months to nail those things down so they were on auto pilot. Triathlon would have been so much more fun had I done that decades ago. (ANY TRIATHLETE COULD DO THIS WITH A 6-MONTH WINTER SWIM FOCUS.)
At least in my eyes there really isn't any difference in the need for these skills whether one is a single sport pool swimmer, triathlete only or an open water fiend. If a swimmer will get a rein on their balance, coordinate some kind of kick and get their breathing done in time so as not to disrupt rhythm they can really have a lot of fun in the water. Until then it just sucks. Odd as it may seem once you get to that point and you look at the workout for the day it looks much less daunting that it used to b/c you are not fighting the water so much. Sure, it still hurts, but mentally it's so much more doable.

This bolded section needs to be memorialized somewhere on ST, as part of a summary of how to learn to swim properly. (I added the ALL CAPS sentence, just for emphasis:)

One other comment: you always emphasize how much swimming hurts; certainly, I have felt this also but I would say that it is much more fun to swim fast than to swim slowly, and for me, when I'm swimming really well, I get such a feeling of power that is so fine and really so addictive, that I don't think of it as painful at all. This is why I've gone back to mainly swimming, because I've never gotten this same feeling on a regular basis on the B or R; occasionally yes but not almost every day as in the pool:)




"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
I swam like a douche bag in my triathlon days really b/c of laziness. I had heard the right things from time to time, but I always made some excuse as to why I didn't have the need or the time to address some basic skills. It wasn't until I went full swim focus that I did it. Took me a solid 6 months to nail those things down so they were on auto pilot. Triathlon would have been so much more fun had I done that decades ago. (ANY TRIATHLETE COULD DO THIS WITH A 6-MONTH WINTER SWIM FOCUS.)
At least in my eyes there really isn't any difference in the need for these skills whether one is a single sport pool swimmer, triathlete only or an open water fiend. If a swimmer will get a rein on their balance, coordinate some kind of kick and get their breathing done in time so as not to disrupt rhythm they can really have a lot of fun in the water. Until then it just sucks. Odd as it may seem once you get to that point and you look at the workout for the day it looks much less daunting that it used to b/c you are not fighting the water so much. Sure, it still hurts, but mentally it's so much more doable.

This bolded section needs to be memorialized somewhere on ST, as part of a summary of how to learn to swim properly. (I added the ALL CAPS sentence, just for emphasis:)

One other comment: you always emphasize how much swimming hurts; certainly, I have felt this also but I would say that it is much more fun to swim fast than to swim slowly, and for me, when I'm swimming really well, I get such a feeling of power that is so fine and really so addictive, that I don't think of it as painful at all. This is why I've gone back to mainly swimming, because I've never gotten this same feeling on a regular basis on the B or R; occasionally yes but not almost every day as in the pool:)



yea 'hurt' might not be the greatest description. i actually internalize the sensations i get during a swim as 'info' b/c it's more positive. as in 'ok things are getting uncomfortable now this is where the men get separated from the boys time to hang tough pay dirt around the corner'. 'hurt' or 'pain' probably not the best way to describe it since those terms should probably be left for things like an injury coming on or bad sensations. swimming fast makes things 'more funnerer' for sure. i am in the 'BIG info' period right now as the last 8 weeks have been travel mania. some fitness lost and water feels weird, but it's coming back to me this week some. looking forward to getting back to good days in the water.
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Aug 5, 14 9:15
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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i watched this video, and got the same sense as if i was church and the pastor was saying amorphous things that did not help me make any substantive move forward in my life, but that took away, temporarily, a sense of guilt over not being able to live up to what it was i thought i was supposed to do.

swim with rhythm? fine. if that advice moves you forward 5sec per 100 yards, when nothing else would, there's a takeaway there that i did not see.

to carry the religious analogy forward, i'll give you the best advice i ever got from a minister, i got this advice 40 years ago and it's stood me in good stead as i have applied it to many areas of my life, and i believe i've shared it here before. that minister asked me did i know how to be a sinner no longer? no, i said, what is the secret? he then told me: stop sinning.

if you don't want to be an alcoholic any longer, stop drinking. if you don't want to be a smoker, stop smoking. if you don't want to cheat on your wife any longer, stop cheating. or get a divorce. just figure out what behavior you want to stop, and stop it.

or start it. the same works, i think, in reverse. if you want to start eating better, stop eating crap, start eating good food. if you want to swim better, start swimming.

and this is what you are saying. one 6-month swim focus does it. just one. do that once, and it changes your entire approach to triathlon, because you are not only swimming faster, you get out of the water with a better class of people, and that brings you forward on the bike and the run. you actually see how good the athletes are (newsflash: faster swimmers bike and run faster too). you spend this 6 months focusing on swimming the vestiges of it last every season, every year, for the rest of your triathlon life.

too many people here complain about TI, or defend it. we just finished 10 weeks of a set of swim workouts and, yes, we talked quite a bit about balance (and if you're going to pick one amorphous word and harp on it, i would choose "balance" over "rhythm"). but here's the overwhelming truth. the people who fairly religiously followed these workouts for these 10 weeks did something not many people reading this did: they swam more than 10,000 yards per week, week in, week out. they swam somewhere between 100,000 and 140,000 yards over 10 weeks.

do you want to know how to be a faster swimmer? start swimming. go look over your training logs. add up the yardage. this is the meat of the season, so, no real excuse here, unless you live in the southern hemisphere. don't deduct for vacations or sickness or travel. go and add up your yardage for the last 10 weeks. for most of you we're talking 40,000 yards, maybe 50,000. maybe. and that's why you are where you are instead of where you want to be. you need a 10-week total of 120,000 yards. even then, that's just barely over 2 months of a 6-month swim focus.

note that the very first thing brett said, before the three Rs, was, "don't listen to what i'm telling someone else." that means he's giving specific stroke advice to specific people, who are doing specific things badly. do not take this 6-minute sermon to mean you can jettison stroke advice. he's just being brett in that sermon. which is why people cling to him. same reason people cling to rick warren. but in there somewhere brett does get into specific stroke fixing. go hang out in a brett sutton enclave and see if you aren't swimming 160,000 or 200,000 yards over 10 weeks. he's going to make you swim a lot, and he's going to fix your stroke. no magic here. he's going to do what any other good coach would do.

last year i asked gerry rodrigues if i might come down and swim in his session, and he can tell me if he sees something obviously wrong (because i wasn't making the progress i thought i should be making). "how many yards are you swimming?" he asks me. i went back and calculated. i shut up.

so here's my three Rs:

swim 12,000 yaRds a week for 3 months, then let's talk.
fix your stRoke.
study and emulate good swimmeRs.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"study and emulate good swimmeRs.'

this is naturally valuable ,but this is where the issue starts already most people try to emulate the wrong good swimmer ....

if somebody goes backwards when they kick but watch Ian Thorpe videos they are in most cases not going to go in the right direction, as they dont kick 400 m in sub 5 min.



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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i watched this video, and got the same sense as if i was church and the pastor was saying amorphous things that did not help me make any substantive move forward in my life, but that took away, temporarily, a sense of guilt over not being able to live up to what it was i thought i was supposed to do.

swim with rhythm? fine. if that advice moves you forward 5sec per 100 yards, when nothing else would, there's a takeaway there that i did not see.

to carry the religious analogy forward, i'll give you the best advice i ever got from a minister, i got this advice 40 years ago and it's stood me in good stead as i have applied it to many areas of my life, and i believe i've shared it here before. that minister asked me did i know how to be a sinner no longer? no, i said, what is the secret? he then told me: stop sinning.

if you don't want to be an alcoholic any longer, stop drinking. if you don't want to be a smoker, stop smoking. if you don't want to cheat on your wife any longer, stop cheating. or get a divorce. just figure out what behavior you want to stop, and stop it.

or start it. the same works, i think, in reverse. if you want to start eating better, stop eating crap, start eating good food. if you want to swim better, start swimming.

and this is what you are saying. one 6-month swim focus does it. just one. do that once, and it changes your entire approach to triathlon, because you are not only swimming faster, you get out of the water with a better class of people, and that brings you forward on the bike and the run. you actually see how good the athletes are (newsflash: faster swimmers bike and run faster too). you spend this 6 months focusing on swimming the vestiges of it last every season, every year, for the rest of your triathlon life.

too many people here complain about TI, or defend it. we just finished 10 weeks of a set of swim workouts and, yes, we talked quite a bit about balance (and if you're going to pick one amorphous word and harp on it, i would choose "balance" over "rhythm"). but here's the overwhelming truth. the people who fairly religiously followed these workouts for these 10 weeks did something not many people reading this did: they swam more than 10,000 yards per week, week in, week out. they swam somewhere between 100,000 and 140,000 yards over 10 weeks.

do you want to know how to be a faster swimmer? start swimming. go look over your training logs. add up the yardage. this is the meat of the season, so, no real excuse here, unless you live in the southern hemisphere. don't deduct for vacations or sickness or travel. go and add up your yardage for the last 10 weeks. for most of you we're talking 40,000 yards, maybe 50,000. maybe. and that's why you are where you are instead of where you want to be. you need a 10-week total of 120,000 yards. even then, that's just barely over 2 months of a 6-month swim focus.

note that the very first thing brett said, before the three Rs, was, "don't listen to what i'm telling someone else." that means he's giving specific stroke advice to specific people, who are doing specific things badly. do not take this 6-minute sermon to mean you can jettison stroke advice. he's just being brett in that sermon. which is why people cling to him. same reason people cling to rick warren. but in there somewhere brett does get into specific stroke fixing. go hang out in a brett sutton enclave and see if you aren't swimming 160,000 or 200,000 yards over 10 weeks. he's going to make you swim a lot, and he's going to fix your stroke. no magic here. he's going to do what any other good coach would do.

last year i asked gerry rodrigues if i might come down and swim in his session, and he can tell me if he sees something obviously wrong (because i wasn't making the progress i thought i should be making). "how many yards are you swimming?" he asks me. i went back and calculated. i shut up.

so here's my three Rs:

swim 12,000 yaRds a week for 3 months, then let's talk.
fix your stRoke.
study and emulate good swimmeRs.

Very nice:) I think possibly one thing many tri people don't understand is that people who look like "natural born swimmers" did not just roll out of bed and start swimming that way their first day in the pool, but rather they put many, many, many hours in the water, and many millions of yards, to get those strokes that "make it look so easy". Also, for a swimmer 12,000 yd/wk is like "an end of the taper before the big meet" week. Of course, they're not doing the B and R but that is why the 6-month swim focus is needed, with maybe just a little running, maybe 20-25 mi/wk, but no biking since increasing bike mileage is much faster than increasing run mileage. I think if a person did a 6-month focus and they could start at 10,000 yd/wk, by the end of 26 wks they could be swimming 30,000 yd/wk for the last 6 wks, e.g. increase by 1000 per wk, and 30K/wk for 6 wks would drastically and forever change their perceptions of swimming and their feel for the water.

Hopefully, since you are a "man of influence" on here, your sermonizing and your guppy/tarpon programs will help the masses up their swim game:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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It's interesting. In 2013, I would say that I pretty much moved backwards as an athlete in two of the three sports. I still had some good performances - 4:14 on the bike in IMAZ and a 1:14 at Vineman, but overall, I wasn't nearly as good relative to my competition as I was the prior year. The one sport where this was not the case was swimming. Why? Because I started swimming with a very good club team regularly. Just over a year later (I told my coach Lauren she had two years, so this seemed most excellent to me), I had my best ever swim at the 70.3 in Calgary, exiting the water in the first pack, roughly 90 seconds down to Andy Potts. Now, you might say that it was a slow first pack, except that if you look at St. George, the main pack exited the water roughly the same margin to Andy - about 1:10-1:30 down. Now certainly, one swim does not a front pack swimmer make, but I think it was a good reminder that when it comes to training, NOTHING trumps fundamentals.

For all sports, those fundamentals include training "enough." For swimming and running, this means simply doing the activity regularly and with sufficient volume. For cycling, there's a minimum intensity requirement that is not there to the same degree with swimming and which is certainly not there with running. For swimming, this also means having someone watch what you do. And for swimming it seems much more than the other two, it means having someone who can push you out of your comfort zone.

- swim often (how often trumps volume, IMO. If you swim 6 days a week for 2km, that's better than 4km 3 days a week, even though volume is the same).

- swim with a coach who can offer feedback on your stroke regularly (once a week is great)

- swim with other people (once a week is great)

I don't disagree with the premise of the three Rs as an underpinning for proper swimming. But I don't see that knowing them helps you get any closer to having them.

What's the real secret to the Sutton swim camp? Being in a swim camp with Brett Sutton standing on deck and other swimmers in the lanes next to you. By virtue of being in a camp, you will swim a bunch. You are swimming with a world class coach watching. And you are swimming with other people who are also trying to improve and who are probably very competitive.

In the past year plus (I started swimming with the club team in May on 2013), in virtually no month did I swim less than 60,000m. I did no running or biking for six weeks after IMAZ, but I swam. Even during my big block of racing - 5 x 70.3 in six weeks, I was still swimming an average of 16km/week DURING that stretch. The week after IMTX? I swam 9km, which was pretty much my lightest week of swimming until the week after that big block of racing, when I swam 8km. I take a break from the other sports - especially biking - but I never stop swimming.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
I swam like a douche bag in my triathlon days really b/c of laziness. I had heard the right things from time to time, but I always made some excuse as to why I didn't have the need or the time to address some basic skills. It wasn't until I went full swim focus that I did it. Took me a solid 6 months to nail those things down so they were on auto pilot. Triathlon would have been so much more fun had I done that decades ago. (ANY TRIATHLETE COULD DO THIS WITH A 6-MONTH WINTER SWIM FOCUS.)
At least in my eyes there really isn't any difference in the need for these skills whether one is a single sport pool swimmer, triathlete only or an open water fiend. If a swimmer will get a rein on their balance, coordinate some kind of kick and get their breathing done in time so as not to disrupt rhythm they can really have a lot of fun in the water. Until then it just sucks. Odd as it may seem once you get to that point and you look at the workout for the day it looks much less daunting that it used to b/c you are not fighting the water so much. Sure, it still hurts, but mentally it's so much more doable.

This bolded section needs to be memorialized somewhere on ST, as part of a summary of how to learn to swim properly. (I added the ALL CAPS sentence, just for emphasis:)

One other comment: you always emphasize how much swimming hurts; certainly, I have felt this also but I would say that it is much more fun to swim fast than to swim slowly, and for me, when I'm swimming really well, I get such a feeling of power that is so fine and really so addictive, that I don't think of it as painful at all. This is why I've gone back to mainly swimming, because I've never gotten this same feeling on a regular basis on the B or R; occasionally yes but not almost every day as in the pool:)



yea 'hurt' might not be the greatest description. i actually internalize the sensations i get during a swim as 'info' b/c it's more positive. as in 'ok things are getting uncomfortable now this is where the men get separated from the boys time to hang tough pay dirt around the corner'. 'hurt' or 'pain' probably not the best way to describe it since those terms should probably be left for things like an injury coming on or bad sensations. swimming fast makes things 'more funnerer' for sure. i am in the 'BIG info' period right now as the last 8 weeks have been travel mania. some fitness lost and water feels weird, but it's coming back to me this week some. looking forward to getting back to good days in the water.

Tiger - Thks for clarifying and ya, it is so cool when you're swimming hard and hanging on the feet of faster swimmers. Sorry to hear you have been traveling so much but you should feel "fresh and rested" in the water now, maybe??? At least that's the way I usually feel after a week or two off.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:
"study and emulate good swimmeRs.'
this is naturally valuable ,but this is where the issue starts already most people try to emulate the wrong good swimmer ....if somebody goes backwards when they kick but watch Ian Thorpe videos they are in most cases not going to go in the right direction, as they dont kick 400 m in sub 5 min.

This is what i've tried to say in numerous posts on here also: pick a swimmer whose style of swimming resonates in your mind and looks like a style you could swim with. I would never pick Thorpie because he's too damn good and has such an incredible kicking ability, which i simply do not possess. I've always gone for swimmers with 2 to 4-beat kicks, cause that's all i can sustain when pulling hard. Also, i think it is much better to pick a good local swimmer, because you can pick up more by watching a guy, or girl, in the lane right next to you than you can just from youtube, IMO. If there are no good swimmers at your pool, then you need to switch pools, really. I've done that myself:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tucktri] [ In reply to ]
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tucktri wrote:
Must be a heavy training day or Slowtwitch has grown up. Thread hasn't devolved yet.
Good advice. Thanks for videos.

By "Devolved" do you mean reminding people that the man being praised here is a convicted child rapist? You're right, hardly anybody talks about the all good things Hitler did.

/

Gary Mc
Did I mention I did Kona
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

I think the middle ground is best, i.e. stretch out as far as you can comfortably, and then turn over as fast as you can while pulling all the way through your stroke. If you are pulling properly, you should be able to feel the water rushing down your thigh to your knee all the way to your upper shins. Assuming you have some good swimmers at your pool, just watch them and try to do what they do. Pick out the one with the stroke you like the best, the person with the stroke you would most like to emulate:)

Man, can I say yes to this. When I stopped masters swimming 5 years ago, I have gotten slower swimming. Been working on different things but nothing seemed to work. But during that last month I got a common input.
First a top swimmer friend talked to me about the pulling properly. I then read a swimming article that most folks do not pull through all the way in their stroke. Then I had a top swimmer I was talking with in the morning swim
and he said the same thing as he was watching me swim, pull all the way through as you rotate the hips.

So in the last 2 weeks, I tweaked my stroke to pull all the way through. So my friend who always beats me by 3 to 4 minutes in the 1.5K swim was shocked in the last 2 races we just did in the last week together
that he only beat me by 2 to 2.5 minutes. He asked what did I do and I said I just changed my stroke as he told me to pull all the way through.

What was interesting during my swim at the race Sunday is I went out hard and fast as I normally do. I then slow down and the faster swimmers start to go by me. I then try to grab on a set of feet to draft.
In the past they would have been gone since they are so much faster than me. But as they would pull away numerous times Sunday, I would focus on a nice strong pull all the way through with rotation and was able
to catch back up to their feet every time. I ended up with my best swim time in a few years. (I also find that I need some feet to try to hang onto or I cannot swim as hard as I would like by myself.)

So amazing how just a little tweak to the swimming technique can make such a huge difference.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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"study and emulate good swimmeRs."

Study, perhaps, but I could nto disagree with you more about emulating a good swimmer. And, I am fairly confident the video advocates for the exact opposite approach (with the only exceptions being the 3 Rs). I experinced this a bit in college rowing. One of our coaches would watch video from the most recent World championships, fall in love with one particular boat and say we are now going row like them--it didn't work because even though they may have been great rowers, it didn't suit our style. It forces you into a style of rowing, swimming, running, biking or whatever that may not suit you. Sure, they are some basics of technique for any sport (e.g., the 3Rs) that any given athlete can and should apply, but beyond that trying to swim like Phelps, swing like Tiger, shoot like LeBron etc. is a poor approach in my opinion.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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emulating good athletes is the basis for every sport. every sport. did i mention every sport?

the trick is to emulate what it is all exponents of that sport do in common. i think what brett says in that video is true: there is no single arm carriage during the recovery, or single stroke rate, that describes 80 or 90 percent of today's great distance freestyle swimmers. but there are things that they all do in common, chiefly what they do under the water, as well as where the catch occurs, and what happens in the early part of the pull phase.

if you want to ignore all of that, you are free to do so.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
ericmulk wrote:


I think the middle ground is best, i.e. stretch out as far as you can comfortably, and then turn over as fast as you can while pulling all the way through your stroke. If you are pulling properly, you should be able to feel the water rushing down your thigh to your knee all the way to your upper shins. Assuming you have some good swimmers at your pool, just watch them and try to do what they do. Pick out the one with the stroke you like the best, the person with the stroke you would most like to emulate:)


Man, can I say yes to this. When I stopped masters swimming 5 years ago, I have gotten slower swimming. Been working on different things but nothing seemed to work. But during that last month I got a common input. First a top swimmer friend talked to me about the pulling properly. I then read a swimming article that most folks do not pull through all the way in their stroke. Then I had a top swimmer I was talking with in the morning swim and he said the same thing as he was watching me swim, pull all the way through as you rotate the hips. So in the last 2 weeks, I tweaked my stroke to pull all the way through. So my friend who always beats me by 3 to 4 minutes in the 1.5K swim was shocked in the last 2 races we just did in the last week together that he only beat me by 2 to 2.5 minutes. He asked what did I do and I said I just changed my stroke as he told me to pull all the way through.
What was interesting during my swim at the race Sunday is I went out hard and fast as I normally do. I then slow down and the faster swimmers start to go by me. I then try to grab on a set of feet to draft.
In the past they would have been gone since they are so much faster than me. But as they would pull away numerous times Sunday, I would focus on a nice strong pull all the way through with rotation and was able to catch back up to their feet every time. I ended up with my best swim time in a few years. (I also find that I need some feet to try to hang onto or I cannot swim as hard as I would like by myself.)
So amazing how just a little tweak to the swimming technique can make such a huge difference.

Well, i would not call "not pulling all the way through" a "minor tweak" but rather a major tweak:) And I see this every single day, every day, at the pool, it is so, so common. It appears that many, many people try to rush their stroke and only pull 1/2 to 2/3 of the way. There's a guy who took up swimming at my club about 3 yrs ago, after like 15 yrs of just sitting by the (outdoor) pool and watching me swim. I've told him prob 3 or 4 times that he's not pulling all the way through but yet he continues to do it. As a consequence, he takes almost twice as many strokes per length as i do, so he kind of looks like he's going fast, with that high turn-over, but in reality he's only going around 1:50/100 yd. He clearly has some feel for the water but just can not seem to finish his strokes, not sure why. Even with paddles he does the same.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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So easy to know, so hard to do unless someone, like a coach, is pending us.

When I focus on the pull through and rotation, guess what, my DPS increase without even having to think about it. :o)

Now, I sure do not want anyone in the 55-59 AG to listen to any of this. :o)

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Another success story to taking just this approach here Dan. I apologize for the frontdoor brags below...

My first few years in Tri, I'd go to the pool a few months leading in to a tri and get comfortable with the distance. I'd come out of the water anywhere from 35 - 40+ mins over a half iron. I'm a total adult onset swimmer who committed big time to the swim this fall/winter (42 years old now) I did Masters and additional swims on my own; getting down to an 800scm tt of 10:50 in Feb this year. My 3 tris this year have been 28 (1/2), 21 (oly) & 27(1/2) minute swims (last one was short). I only swam this fall & Just added up my training for the year and I'm at 320km YTD or an avg of over 10km/week. I'm much faster than I've ever been overall and getting far less training in on the other two disciplines (went 4:11 for 70.3 in Calgary last weekend). Biggest difference has been getting on the bike feeling like I've just warmed up rather than being shelled from struggling through the swim. I still remember the year I did IMC (2011) having arm cramps most of the way down to Osoyoos!

IMO every athlete who truly wants to improve (& enjoy their race days that much more) should do the block you prescribe. I also received good stroke feedback at Masters and watched a lot of Youtube videos, covering off your other two R's. The fishtwitch monthly threads were also a big help in the winter when I was looking for workout ideas on those non-masters days.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
but there are things that they all do in common, chiefly what they do under the water, as well as where the catch occurs, and what happens in the early part of the pull phase.


And that thing they have in common: the palm of their hand is perpendicular to the direction they are swimming for a significant amount of the time it is underwater.

Since we brought him up, look at these hands: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rjbQp5fjBO0
Last edited by: ajthomas: Aug 5, 14 20:28
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Ignore all of that no. Again, I agree with what he is saying just not with what you are saying. And, I also disagree that emulating "good" athletes is the basis of all sports--maybe when I was 10. Since then I have never tried to swing like Tiger, swim like Phelps, bike like Armstrong. Because I recognize that what they do may not work for me. Of course, some of what they do is applicable, but the video spefically advocates for individualized analysis and coaching above and beyond basic fundamentals which is my point. If you believe watching a video of Phelps (or pick you athlete) and emulating them is necessarily the best way to make you fast, that is, of course, your choice.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
Ignore all of that no. Again, I agree with what he is saying just not with what you are saying. And, I also disagree that emulating "good" athletes is the basis of all sports--maybe when I was 10. Since then I have never tried to swing like Tiger, swim like Phelps, bike like Armstrong. Because I recognize that what they do may not work for me. Of course, some of what they do is applicable, but the video spefically advocates for individualized analysis and coaching above and beyond basic fundamentals which is my point. If you believe watching a video of Phelps (or pick you athlete) and emulating them is necessarily the best way to make you fast, that is, of course, your choice.

Sounds like a better way to get hurt, than maybe to improve.

This is why I liked his comment so much about what he tells one person has nothing to do with what he tells another. Now, that is a coach I can respect.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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I can't tell if you were trying to agree or disagree with me or missed my point. But, what you said is exactly my point!! I completely agreed with that coment in the video but was disagreeing with Slowman's comment
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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DFW_Tri wrote:
I can't tell if you were trying to agree or disagree with me or missed my point. But, what you said is exactly my point!! I completely agreed with that coment in the video but was disagreeing with Slowman's comment

I was agreeing with you!!

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:

Tiger - Thks for clarifying and ya, it is so cool when you're swimming hard and hanging on the feet of faster swimmers. Sorry to hear you have been traveling so much but you should feel "fresh and rested" in the water now, maybe??? At least that's the way I usually feel after a week or two off.

Well, just got back from an afternoon dip! I wish it had only a week or two, but it was the months of June and July so more like 8 weeks of intermittent swimming. That said I'm home a lot through mid-September so I can get a lot of that back I'm certain of it. I did about 800 yards of kicking to get as warm as I could since my legs always warm up faster than the front end. Ended up doing a bunch of 5 minute swims super super easy for the rest of the hour. Didn't even keep track of yardage just trying to get some feel back in my body b/f I turn up the volume. I HATE the feeling of slipping on good grabable water when my timing stinks, felt way better by the last 5 minute block so it'll come back soon enough. Felt great to be in the water though! I'm such a huge swim dork even when it's less than stellar I still dig it. A lot.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm one of those really slow swimmers who also happens to be a strong runner, and what I heard in the video and what I have read in this thread is the equivalent of me saying, "The key to running fast is to develop rhythm, to relax, run more, and then BOOM, you're Prefontaine."

I do a lot of things naturally when I run that others don't do...knee drive...arm swing...head/chest position...hand position...turnover...foot landing surface...

I am very relaxed in the water. I have rhythm in my stroke. I swim a lot. I am still painfully slow. Sometimes technique is important and if you don't have it, you need to work at it.

Before anyone starts yelling at me, I am taking October through February to focus solely on swimming under the supervision of a coach
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Gary Mc] [ In reply to ]
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Gary Mc wrote:
tucktri wrote:
Must be a heavy training day or Slowtwitch has grown up. Thread hasn't devolved yet.
Good advice. Thanks for videos.

By "Devolved" do you mean reminding people that the man being praised here is a convicted child rapist? You're right, hardly anybody talks about the all good things Hitler did.

/
Guess it was about time someone brought up Hitler.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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ST pundits watch 6 mins of Sutto coaching swimming and assume that is the entirety of his knowledge and advice on the subject. *sigh*
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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I have to agree that rhythm and relaxation are the most important factors in swimming. When you are swimming well, these are the things that stand out in terms of how you feel in the water. I come from a swim background, and whenever my fly and free were at their best I always felt really relaxed in my stroke (ie no tension in my recovery), plus I felt like I could just keep going at a decent tempo (ie rhythm). DPS/range was the last thing that came. Since I've been doing tris, it is quite rare for me to feel like I have a good rhythm and to feel relaxed (under stress) when swimming.

I busted both ac joints playing rugby 12 or so years ago, so am wondering whether that has something to do with it? I just always seem to feel tense in my recovery when I get tired.

I've been trialling the USRPT method of training in in my swimming lately so will see if that affects anything...
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [fulla] [ In reply to ]
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brett's other "r", i don't even remember what that was anymore. but these two, upon reflection i've decided that these are the keys to dialing in not just your swimming, and making efficient every task in triathlon, but for optimizing all human endeavor.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
brett's other "r", i don't even remember what that was anymore. but these two, upon reflection i've decided that these are the keys to dialing in not just your swimming, and making efficient every task in triathlon, but for optimizing all human endeavor.

Showing your age. :o)

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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qoute
What's the real secret to the Sutton swim camp? Being in a swim camp with Brett Sutton standing on deck and other swimmers in the lanes next to you. By virtue of being in a camp, you will swim a bunch. You are swimming with a world class coach watching. And you are swimming with other people who are also trying to improve and who are probably very competitive.

This is what most people overlook when they try to go into the little details they dont look at the big picture. For pretty much 80 % of top Itu coaches and athletes thats what they do,they create a competetive environmwnt with world class coaching and a good group and then it dosnt really matter if it is leeds the basque country , leysin or st moritz, boulder . Its so uncunny its not even funny and in a way more important than any of the 3 R s.
or as a wise man has written on his website
Surrounded by commitment, success is inevitable.


Rappstar wrote:
It's interesting. In 2013, I would say that I pretty much moved backwards as an athlete in two of the three sports. I still had some good performances - 4:14 on the bike in IMAZ and a 1:14 at Vineman, but overall, I wasn't nearly as good relative to my competition as I was the prior year. The one sport where this was not the case was swimming. Why? Because I started swimming with a very good club team regularly. Just over a year later (I told my coach Lauren she had two years, so this seemed most excellent to me), I had my best ever swim at the 70.3 in Calgary, exiting the water in the first pack, roughly 90 seconds down to Andy Potts. Now, you might say that it was a slow first pack, except that if you look at St. George, the main pack exited the water roughly the same margin to Andy - about 1:10-1:30 down. Now certainly, one swim does not a front pack swimmer make, but I think it was a good reminder that when it comes to training, NOTHING trumps fundamentals.

For all sports, those fundamentals include training "enough." For swimming and running, this means simply doing the activity regularly and with sufficient volume. For cycling, there's a minimum intensity requirement that is not there to the same degree with swimming and which is certainly not there with running. For swimming, this also means having someone watch what you do. And for swimming it seems much more than the other two, it means having someone who can push you out of your comfort zone.

- swim often (how often trumps volume, IMO. If you swim 6 days a week for 2km, that's better than 4km 3 days a week, even though volume is the same).

- swim with a coach who can offer feedback on your stroke regularly (once a week is great)

- swim with other people (once a week is great)

I don't disagree with the premise of the three Rs as an underpinning for proper swimming. But I don't see that knowing them helps you get any closer to having them.

What's the real secret to the Sutton swim camp? Being in a swim camp with Brett Sutton standing on deck and other swimmers in the lanes next to you. By virtue of being in a camp, you will swim a bunch. You are swimming with a world class coach watching. And you are swimming with other people who are also trying to improve and who are probably very competitive.

In the past year plus (I started swimming with the club team in May on 2013), in virtually no month did I swim less than 60,000m. I did no running or biking for six weeks after IMAZ, but I swam. Even during my big block of racing - 5 x 70.3 in six weeks, I was still swimming an average of 16km/week DURING that stretch. The week after IMTX? I swam 9km, which was pretty much my lightest week of swimming until the week after that big block of racing, when I swam 8km. I take a break from the other sports - especially biking - but I never stop swimming.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [tigerpaws] [ In reply to ]
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tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Tiger - Thks for clarifying and ya, it is so cool when you're swimming hard and hanging on the feet of faster swimmers. Sorry to hear you have been traveling so much but you should feel "fresh and rested" in the water now, maybe??? At least that's the way I usually feel after a week or two off.


Well, just got back from an afternoon dip! I wish it had only a week or two, but it was the months of June and July so more like 8 weeks of intermittent swimming. That said I'm home a lot through mid-September so I can get a lot of that back I'm certain of it. I did about 800 yards of kicking to get as warm as I could since my legs always warm up faster than the front end. Ended up doing a bunch of 5 minute swims super super easy for the rest of the hour. Didn't even keep track of yardage just trying to get some feel back in my body b/f I turn up the volume. I HATE the feeling of slipping on good grabable water when my timing stinks, felt way better by the last 5 minute block so it'll come back soon enough. Felt great to be in the water though! I'm such a huge swim dork even when it's less than stellar I still dig it. A lot.

Ya, I could not have said it better myself, just moving gracefully through the water, at whatever speed and swimming whatever stroke, is such a nice feeling. In particular, it is nice when there are only a few people in the pool and the water is nice and smooth and still. Moving smoothly through still water, what a treat. I'll prob never become a serious OW swimmer cause i like the smoothness of the pool too much, whereas OW is often pretty rough and you can't really feel your stroke at all. I'll prob just stick with mid-distance and distance events, 200 and up in all 4 strokes:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
tigerpaws wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Tiger - Thks for clarifying and ya, it is so cool when you're swimming hard and hanging on the feet of faster swimmers. Sorry to hear you have been traveling so much but you should feel "fresh and rested" in the water now, maybe??? At least that's the way I usually feel after a week or two off.


Well, just got back from an afternoon dip! I wish it had only a week or two, but it was the months of June and July so more like 8 weeks of intermittent swimming. That said I'm home a lot through mid-September so I can get a lot of that back I'm certain of it. I did about 800 yards of kicking to get as warm as I could since my legs always warm up faster than the front end. Ended up doing a bunch of 5 minute swims super super easy for the rest of the hour. Didn't even keep track of yardage just trying to get some feel back in my body b/f I turn up the volume. I HATE the feeling of slipping on good grabable water when my timing stinks, felt way better by the last 5 minute block so it'll come back soon enough. Felt great to be in the water though! I'm such a huge swim dork even when it's less than stellar I still dig it. A lot.


Ya, I could not have said it better myself, just moving gracefully through the water, at whatever speed and swimming whatever stroke, is such a nice feeling. In particular, it is nice when there are only a few people in the pool and the water is nice and smooth and still. Moving smoothly through still water, what a treat. I'll prob never become a serious OW swimmer cause i like the smoothness of the pool too much, whereas OW is often pretty rough and you can't really feel your stroke at all. I'll prob just stick with mid-distance and distance events, 200 and up in all 4 strokes:)

It would be really interesting to know what exactly is gained and lost from swimming alone in perfectly still water vs the benefit of a draft off a faster swimmer, but getting less still water to lock on to. My own two cents is that the draft for me far and away sucks me along overcoming whatever I lose with catching sloppy water. I still do an occasional open water swim when the water is cool like fall/spring time. I always end up being able to swim with faster people than I would be capable of in a pool, but then again my turns/breakouts are nowhere near the level of a lot of those peeps. So many dang variables!
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
knighty76 wrote:
I am slowly circling in on this idea!! I have spent ~3yrs focussing entirely on technique, side kicking, Unco, Popov, catch drills etc etc. Never really got any faster. I went for some video analysis with a successful coach and had all these questions lined up about elbow angle and timing my rotation with my catch, and when to angle down my hand, and on and on. What she basically said to me was that I needed to stroke faster and improve my swim fitness!! And biliateral breathe more often to balance out my stroke.

Hard pill to swallow, being told that your issue is fitness when you can run 17 for 10k. I think we would all like to think that we are fit enough and that our problem is purely a technical one, and one day we will figure out the thing we are doing wrong and voila!! But what is gradually dawning on me is that I don't have swim fitness.

Going to be concentrating on turnover, rhythm and relaxation. A timely post for me.

I think there's a lot of truth in what Sutton preaches often, which is 'think less, train and suffer more' in swimming. I for sure was hit by paralysis by analysis in swimming, and am just starting to commit to swim suffering for improvement.

I also have had essentially zero improvement from analyzing my stroke and making small changes once I was past 1:50/100, and all my improvements from the hard stuff. Doesn't mean I'm neglecting mechanics, but I'm not spending the bulk of my time avoiding swimming hard just to swim 'right' anymore.

Sounds like what our coach said to us. "Don't think, just swim". Of course we still worked on technique, but the message was to just swim hard, in races forget about technique (it should be automatic at that point ) and just think about race strategy.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
ST pundits watch 6 mins of Sutto coaching swimming and assume that is the entirety of his knowledge and advice on the subject. *sigh*

Ha ha, well said :)

I'm glad that the majority posting here seemed to gain something from this short video. It is just a tiny glimpse behind the scenes of daily training in camp. Maybe I'll post some more insights in the future, if it is deemed helpful to some, as we are all just doing what we can to be the best that we can be, so happy if someone gets something out of it.

While standing on the pool deck this morning, I was telling Brett about the great response to the video, which he was unaware was being filmed at the time. As I said this is daily in the trenches coaching, just another day at the office. He was interested to hear about the details, and wanted to post a reply, so here it is. As not many speak Sutto I already did the translation ;)

Safe training,
Robbie
http://www.trisutto.com


As you know, I leave the forum'ing out. Not because my history inevitably gets brought up when someone wants to denounce a point I make on completely different topics, but because the misinformation is so deliberate to sell a product or way of thinking that you can't make a difference anymore .

Yes, I do have a first draft of a Sutto training bible, haha. It was started in my swim days, then morphed with chapters when my early triathletes started to kill everyone, then I added more in the late 90s. I thought I had completed it in my sabbatical in 2005, and had a couple of publishers offer to print it. I thought why? So it's just sitting there. Maybe I should take some time off to finish it, and give the triathlon world a hand book they can understand, and that makes sense of real triathlon.

As to Dan, well he isn't a coach, just another age grouper when it comes to expertise in this area. However one with a lot of experience. I think his points were valid, in the fact that people just don't swim enough, and I like his pastor approach of helping out. I don't have a pastor but I live by that thinking.

As to copying the best, well what is the best? That seems to be the conjecture. Do you watch films of a sprinter and say that is the best swim technique?, when most 100m men can't swim 4km without floaties. Do we study Usain Bolt when we want to run the marathon in an ironman? I don't think so, but it happens in swimming all the time.

As to rappstar, he seems to only be echoing an article I wrote somewhere. I can't send it to you as I don't know when and where it appeared but I said that a few of my athletes left me as they were not happy I wasn't as hell bent on improving their swim as they were. They were also miffed that I said no matter how much they improve, Kona won't suit them. I told them going to a swim coach that doesn't know triathlon may make them a 1 minute faster swimmer, but a 10 minute worse athlete. I can only say after watching some of them for two seasons, over half of them swim better to various degrees, however all are much slower triathletes, and none will be successful in kona. Just as I said in the first place, sometimes you must beware of what you wish for. Mick Jagger penned it correctly "you can't always get what you want, but sometimes you can get what you need". The rapp is not so much a star anymore. A going back to his roots both physically and more mentally, will see him bounce back at the races that suit him, racing the way that suits him. The ole change of heart on Kona has cost him dearly. Just my take.
Cheers
the doc
.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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this is gold!!!!

one of the main aspect people need to realise is, Brett is a high performance expert. he create a high performance/high commitment surrounding for the athletes and train them really hard and in a very smart not bullshit approach. But even more, he is a mastermind motivator/talking/story teller. He can sence and feel when the energy level is low with the athletes and he make those pep talk like in this video. he as million of stories...he is so much fun to listen to when you take part daily in the training. He as this ability to turn you from exhausted and tired to ready to smash yourself and go to war. That video is very much this, ....like slowman and Rappstar said... it s not like those 3 R help you directly improve.... but it s just one more talk in his registry of 1000s that he use to create this environment of high performance.

somes coaches are poor at been ''motivator'' and entertainer. Some will argue it s not part of there jobs and want athletes to be self motivated. Brett take control over this aspect and make sure you re fired up before each session like he take control over everything else in the high performance environment of a athlete

Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting, Great read.

I love the part that not everyone is suited for Kona. Boy does a Type A NOT want to hear this from anyone.

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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [jonnyo] [ In reply to ]
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jonnyo wrote:
this is gold!!!!

one of the main aspect people need to realise is, Brett is a high performance expert. he create a high performance/high commitment surrounding for the athletes and train them really hard and in a very smart not bullshit approach. But even more, he is a mastermind motivator/talking/story teller. He can sence and feel when the energy level is low with the athletes and he make those pep talk like in this video. he as million of stories...he is so much fun to listen to when you take part daily in the training. He as this ability to turn you from exhausted and tired to ready to smash yourself and go to war. That video is very much this, ....like slowman and Rappstar said... it s not like those 3 R help you directly improve.... but it s just one more talk in his registry of 1000s that he use to create this environment of high performance.

somes coaches are poor at been ''motivator'' and entertainer. Some will argue it s not part of there jobs and want athletes to be self motivated. Brett take control over this aspect and make sure you re fired up before each session like he take control over everything else in the high performance environment of a athlete

I seriously wish I could put some of that Brett Sutton crazy and motivation into a regular podcast and blast it into my ears on those days where I'm not supposed to be dogging it but just feel so blah. I agree with you - after his 'ranting', I wanted to jump in that pool and destroy myself! Seems to be working...
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [robbie] [ In reply to ]
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His (younger?) brother, Brian is a pretty handy swim coach too. Also has a stack of interesting stories and "outside the box" thoughts on training including transferring training principles from race horses to humans and vice versa. Still involved in High performance swim stuff here in Aus and worth looking up down here if you want a bit of personal coaching.

One other comment I'd make is that in terms of "emulating" top athletes, there is certainly one area that's worth copying - They all spend lots of time doing their stuff. I hear all of these yds/ week, month or whatever being mentioned but as Sutto mentions, you gotta get out there and just swim lots. 60 - 70,000 will do it....per week! My kids came home this morning from swimming training. Their set - 10,000 scm (main set was 10 x 800 ). Seems to me that if you want to improve your triathlon swimming, the big block method has some validity.
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Re: Brett Sutton Video - 3 tips to improve your triathlon swimming [gunsbuns] [ In reply to ]
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gunsbuns wrote:
His (younger?) brother, Brian is a pretty handy swim coach too. Also has a stack of interesting stories and "outside the box" thoughts on training including transferring training principles from race horses to humans and vice versa. Still involved in High performance swim stuff here in Aus and worth looking up down here if you want a bit of personal coaching.

One other comment I'd make is that in terms of "emulating" top athletes, there is certainly one area that's worth copying - They all spend lots of time doing their stuff. I hear all of these yds/ week, month or whatever being mentioned but as Sutto mentions, you gotta get out there and just swim lots. 60 - 70,000 will do it....per week! My kids came home this morning from swimming training. Their set - 10,000 scm (main set was 10 x 800 ). Seems to me that if you want to improve your triathlon swimming, the big block method has some validity.

U.S. Masters Swimming has an annual online fitness challenge with diff milestones and awards for those milestones, with the ultimate milestone being to swim 1500 miles (2.64 million yd or about 2.4 million m) in the calendar year. Last year I swam 1338 miles, or about 47,000 yd/wk (42,300 m/wk) over 50 weeks, with 2 weeks off. This year I'm on track to hit 1500 miles, which is 52,800 yd/wk or 48,300 m/wk over 50 weeks.

On a related note, Sutto's "swim lots" is identical to Eddie Merckx's statement way back around 1967 or so, when asked about the secret to becoming a great cyclist: "ride lots".


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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