Look like rebadged carbon wheels from a china supplier to me.

No experience but I just moved to Tokyo. The foreigner cycling community is a pretty small but tight group with some serious riders. You might want to try tokyocycle.com, which is the central forum for The community. I don't know James Ferrer the guy behind Tokyo Wheel, but doing a quick search on the forum, I see some strong riders talking about rides with him.

You gotta wonder, with some of their wheels being named 'epic', that they might be headed for, uh, lawsuit territory .... as the cafe roubaix guy almost was recently.

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Advanced Aero TopTube Storage for Road, Gravel, & Tri...ZeroSlip & Direct-mount, made in the USA.
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I have a set and like them very much. I also have Zipp 202 firecrest and 303s but wanted a cheaper wheel for daily trainers. I typically ride Zipp 101s for training but honestly I just got tired of changing brake pads between the different sets so I searched for a cheaper alternative. I posted a youtube review with some data from the rear wheel with width measurements of the braking surface taken with a micrometer at 21 positions around the wheel; you draw your own conclusions. I will measure the front wheel this weekend and post that data on youtube too. I have weight and spoke tension data if anyone is interested. I have the clincher 50 mm deep wheels and so far I've beat them up pretty good on somewhat rough country roads and I'm happy. Am I a little concerned about a CC clincher that is manufactured in China? Sure I am but given the price of what I had with DT Swiss 240 hubs and Sapim CX-ray spokes I'm happy enough. Trust me, if I experience a failure that I perceive as a manufacturing defect I will make it known. I will say that the first set of wheels I received had a slight problem and I contacted Tokyowheel and returned them. After the wheels were released from customs my account was credited but then I decided to try again and I'm pleased. Here is my $0.02. Are the wheels worth it? Are they as good as my Zipps or your most favorite brand? I don't know. Have they done all the research that the big companies have done; probably not but why don't you just ask? Sure you can buy cheaper carbon wheels and you can certainly buy more expensive wheels and maybe they are or aren't any better but to me the customer service I've received has been outstanding and I wasn't looking to spend >$2700 for yet another set of wheels. I wanted a less expensive wheel for training Oh, by the way my Zipp 101s are for sale if anyone is interested.

Oh, forgot to include the link in case anyone wanted to see the data I collected on my Tokyowheel. I have no idea if this is good or bad since can't measure my Zipps for comparison due to the Firecrest shape proving difficult for precision. The data is what it is so please let me know your thoughts. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITR4kLwEPH4

  
Any disc wheels in the works?

+1 on Disc Brake hubs.
I will buy a pair regardless, but a disc brake hub would be great.

Hi There, I was very hesitant to buy these Tokyo Wheels without any representation here in Australia or any real history of sales etc. No-one I knew had any etc. I bought a set of Epic 38-50 with the Sapim upgrade in December 2013 and have found them to be the best wheels I have ever ridden (I have been lucky enough to have Zipp, FFWD, TWE, Shimano etc). Very stiff combination - have the brakes dialled up very close and no flex touching the pads. Roll brilliantly - so well I am selling my Zipp Tubulars I have been using for racing and will use these with Latex Tubes and GP4000s.

Most impressive is the braking - first ride I was caught out in the pouring rain and found them to brake almost as well as Aluminium rims. I really was unexpectantly impressed here!

Love the wide profile although it can be problematic with your brakes - need them almost at thier width limits. The spokes are a great upgrade - very quiet with the use of brass washers etc.

Really am very impressed and I have found James a delight to deal with. Bit hard to get them on the phone - only issue I have had. But respond to emails very quickly.

Longevity yet to be proven - but in 12 months time if they are still running well I will certainly buy another set.

Out of curiousity which hub did you choose? I opted for the DT Swiss 240s but for my next set of wheels I'll likely go with the spec'd hubs or maybe up upgrade to the ceramic hubs but since the next set will go on my CX bike I probably just need to stick to steel bearings. Anyway, just curious.

I guess I don't know why people would spring for them in the first place. They are almost surely just rebranded rims, rebranded hubs and generic steel spokes. It's nice that they let you upgrade to DT Swiss and cx rays, but by the time you do, you could get some Zipp clincher 60s for less.

How wide are your rims? How does the aero data stack up against flo or zipp?

How are your wheels different from the products offered by Farsports or DengFu?
Who did the rim and mold design for your wheels?
Do you own the rim molds/tooling at the factory where your wheels are made?
Where are your wheels laced, tensioned, and built?
Have you performed any aerodynamic testing on your wheels vs competing wheels?

Why should a consumer buy your wheels vs the Farsports wheels available at the following link?
VELOBUILD MALL

I'm in the market for a new front 88mm carbon clincher and these look promising.

I do need the wheel before April though and it would be interesting to see the test results before taking the plunge.

What tyre combination would you recommend for use with this wheel for minimum drag (aero/rolling)?

When I placed my order it arrived within 7 business days; US customs held onto it for an additional day but knowing it's a govt agency they don't get in a hurry to do anything. It probably would've arrived in 5 business days but that's just speculation. What do you have to lose given the money back guarantee? Order, ride, and wait for data. If you don't like the data or the ride return it since they have the test ride guarantee.

I just bought a set of the Epic 38 clinchers with Sapim spokes and ceramic bearings and I love them. I know everyone is concerned about them being made in China but keep in mind most of the big names are manufactured overseas. As long as they comply with the owner's specs and the QA is in place it shouldn't be an issue. Now about the wheels. I received them professionally and securely boxed and in a timely manner. They look Fabulous! And let's face it, if you are a cyclist looking good is important. Weight - my set weighed in at 1370 Grams. 10 grams under advertised. Braking - compared to my Zipp 303 and Easton EC90 these are by far the best. No pulsing and a consistent feeling when applying pressure. I intentionally bombed down several steep, long climbs staying on the brakes trying to heat them up. They weren't even warm to the touch. Ride feel - they don't feel or sound hollow like my Zipps and smooth out the road pretty good. They hold speed and handle crosswinds well. Wheel Trueness - again I have been intentionally hitting rough areas of road, manholes, potholes and other imperfections trying to throw off the trueness and they have stayed true. As a matter of fact they showed up and remain perfectly true. Flexing - I'm 170 pounds and stand quite often toward the end of climbs. My Zipps flex and touch the brake pads when I'm hammering up climbs - these DO NOT. I'm telling you, I don't care where these wheels were made, they are the real deal. Concerning the owner's customer service. I've sent James no less than seven emails inquiring about the wheels and have never waited more than one day for a super comprehensive response. In closing, if you are looking for an exceptional set of carbon wheels at a Great price log into Tokyowheels. You can email me at Timothy.morello@yahoo.com if you have any questions. BTW: I'm a retired Marine living in Okinawa Japan and if these wheels were crap I wouldn't lie about it. Everything above is spot on.

These must be amazing wheels. So many people have gone to the effort to register on the forum to post their long detailed positive reviews of them in the last few weeks.

Half the price of the competitors for what I consider to be a better wheel. I think it's best to let people know.

You summation is correct; I registered on the forum to post a reply about the Tokyowheels because I felt it important to do so. I also posted some data on my youtube channel if you want to see data. To date my feelings are very positive and as I stated in a previous post if I experience anything I perceive as a problem I will first work with their customer service for a resolution and I will also post my opinion. Actually, I returned my 1st set of wheels for what I felt was a slight problem; my account was credited but then I kept thinking about it and decided to give it another go. I'm happy enough.
I have no idea if the data is "The Good, Bad, and Ugly" so I asked others for their input but received no responses. I actually just ordered another wheelset from Tokyowheel; these will be for my cyclocross bike so not sure if anyone on Slowtwitch will want to read about them. Subjective is what it is so I'll do what I can to provide objective data for my 2nd set once they arrive. I ordered the Elite tubular 38mm with the Tokyowheel (house brand) hub and Sapim CX-ray spokes. My 1st order was the 50 mm Epic with DT Swiss 240 hubs and Sapim CX-ray spokes. These wheels have now become my go to training wheelset.
I've not ridden sew-ups on a CX bike before so I'm excited to give them a go.I'll most likely post subjective and objective review on Cyclocross magazine forum and my youtube channel.

2 post tokyo wonder. Nice fluff review.

I don't think you get pink font

From here.

2013 newest modern clincher 50mm depth 25mm width U shape carbon wheels with Sapim spokes, strong&stiff, View 50mm 25mm wide carbon wheels, OEM Product Details from Xiamen Far Sports Industry And Trade Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

So you own these molds?

He also says that the DT Swiss 240 hubs are made in Japan, which is news to me.

The rim shapes are clearly not original... Hopefully tokyowheels doesn't keep up the song and dance.

James,

You mentioned in another forum that you are doing some kind of 'digital testing'. What is 'digital testing' and why are you doing it when everyone else in the industry does standard DIN testing.

What about your bead hook is different since the spec for this is clearly defined by ETRTO.

Am I understanding your post you have made here and on other forums correctly and are you saying that you own not only your molds but the factory they are produced in?

What carbon prepreg do you use?

What is the tonnage?

What are you testing on the braking surface?

Are your materials HTg? If so, is it in the prepreg or are you using a basalt treatment?

If you are using basalt how is it applied?

What temps have you tested your rims to? At what temps did they fail? What was the protocol? How did they fail? Do you have video of the test you can show? SGS test reports you can post?

Regarding the remarkable similarities between your rims and those offered by The Chinese trading company linked to earlier I am a little surprised that you have spent time responding to this thread and others like it in other forums but haven't yet bothered to investigate a potentially serious design infringement.


I look forward to your response.

Please go and look at a dt Swiss 240 hub then come back...

Thank you James for your candor. I am one of your "paying customers"; actually I've ordered 2 wheelsets from you. I've stated on my posts on this forum and another that I was skeptical and concerned with purchasing wheels made in mainland China.

I look forward to listening to the audio you recorded just to gain some insight into Tokyowheel and seeing the video you had planned to shoot. My fear is that you're opening yourself up to the naysayers to all sorts of ranting. There are those on this forum who won't understand this reference but anyone from a farm, ranch, or grew up in the country will understand this...."what kind of leather are you, boot strap or suede?" It's something my Dad used to say when we'd complain about chores around the home place. I hope you're boot strap because I feel the naysayers will only respond with negativity and venom to your latest post.

My $0.02 is that you're battling a negative stigma associated with "Made in China" and it will be a hard, fought battle. I for one am glad I took a chance. There are those who will say I'm gullible, naive, or worse. That's none of my concern so y'all just flame away; I am boot strap. I've also said that if I experience what I perceive as a manufacturing failure or defect that I'll be very vocal in an attempt to notify others.

I look forward to the transparency you discussed; sort of a paradigm shift and likely not easily done. Good luck.

None of the real concerns raised were addressed in you poignant novella, James.

Why are your products IDENTICAL IN EVERY WAY to those shown on the Farsports website, including the actual hub photos?

Someone is misrepresenting their connection to the products in question. Please clarify who you believe this to be.

This whole thread reads like an ad for this company.

What's the difference between Tokyo Wheels and FLO wheels that most of the Slowtwitch community seems to rave about and constantly give free promotion with posts on this forum? FLO also outsource their rims and hubs.

I own Zipp wheels and sure I paid more but feel better knowing they're backed by a large company with quality control and a proven track record. I also understand that some don't have as much discretionary cash or simply can't justify spending $3000+ on wheels that's where these companies come in. Will be interesting to see how Tokyo and Flo wheels stand the test of time. I'd love to be able to spend $1000 on my next wheelset and have same quality as my Zipps.

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Proud Kiwami Ambassador/Team Member
ask me anything about:
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People from FLO have come on to ST to post in threads about their products when there is an issue they can address (like why they haven't ramped up production). Almost a third of the posts in this thread are James from Tokyowheel flogging his products. FLO doesn't come on here to promote or advertise their products. James does, complete with pictures of satisfied customers.

That's the difference between them. There are a few people in this thread with positive things to say about Tokyowheel, but a third of them come from Tokyowheel itself.

Seems like a a great way to get free advertising, the way I see it Flo is no different. Anyways doesn't really matter as I stated before I'll stick with known brands until companies like FLO and Tokyowheel prove there products over the long term.

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Proud Kiwami Ambassador/Team Member
ask me anything about:
https://kiwamitri.com

I think my biggest beef is the transparency.

Flo admits readily what they created from the ground up and what they outsourced. Second, Flo owns their rim shape and design, whereas the rim shape used by Tokyo is used by dozens of other companies, and even worse Tokyo won't admit it. Maybe, and it's a big maybe, Tokyo has a unique layup or something but at the end of the day, it's going to have similar weight and the same aerodynamics as all of those other companies using the same rim. Finally, look at the value to the community of Flo's posts, information about tire aerodynamics, how they did Cfd, whereas Tokyo is clearly just selling wheels.

I have no big problems with Tokyo, except that it's the same bullshit that we see from all the re-labelers, "these are completely my own design, it just so happens that my rim shape is the exact same as all the other Chinese wheels."

I respectfully disagree, but I do agree that long-term results are necessary to prove that you have something better. I see Tokyowheel as being yet another company that imports Farspots (or similar) wheels, re-badges them and sells them at a much higher price. But that's just me, and you're right: time will tell.

Farsports is not the Asian OE distributor. They are the aftermarket distibuter for China.

If you assemble wheels in Taiwan you deal with Toni at Salloy, or, if you are big enough, with Sapim directly.

Please explain how your basalt is applied and why it is done that way. What do you do to keep it from peeling like most other basalt rims do.

What are the failure temps? What was the testing protocol? Do you have CE, UCI certification or SGS test reports?

How does your lay-up differ from Far-Sports considering your rims are the EXACT shape and weights?

If YOU own the molds why is Far Sports selling rims that are the EXACT rims shapes as you?

You mentioned 'digital testing' for your rims. What is this and why is it different from the DIN tests used by the rest of the industry?

When will we see the video and will there be a prize for the first person who correctly identifies the factory or anyone in the video?

I just got my set of Tokyo Wheels built around DT Swiss 240s Straight pulls and I am very happy. I was skeptical and I read pretty much every thread on every forum I could find including this one. I also asked James Ferrer alot of questions by email and was amazed at the speed of his responsiveness. Then I compared the specs of Tokyo Wheels against those being offered by Far Sports, all the ebay sellers, Alibaba - the Tokyo Wheels are indeed different. Pretty much all the other sellers have the same diameter wheels and they all have a rim width of between 20.5 and 23, My Tokyos are 25.5 in the front and 26 in the rear and having come to the conclusion that they are not just re-badged "same as" - I bought them and am very happy with them. From time of order to receipt was exactly 7 days (To Canada) and they look beautiful, roll perfectly true and are indeed very stiff. I took them into my LBS who built a lot of custom wheels and they were impressed too. So from my perspective, Tokyo Wheel and James Ferrer are the real deal and the product is not just a higher priced re-brand, they are unique ... I'm sold.

Very well done for a first post.

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Duathlete by choice?

Thanks. This forum has been very helpful to me and I'm sure countless others I'm glad to be part of the community.

I may be drinking the cool aid (maybe not the best reference for an international forum) but I have 2 sets of Tokyowheels and while I don't need them I'm about to order another set; 38 mm clinchers. Ok, so I too am new to the forum and have but a few posts to my name so all the high and mighty can just flame away. I posted on youtube and even took measurements with my micrometer because I felt my caliper wasn't accurate enough. I posted that data and asked for feedback; very few commented or had useful suggestions. I'm not going to pretend to know the science of wheels nor do I have time to learn. I barely have enough time to ride but I like my wheels so far. There is another forum in which someone requested some Tokyowheel rims and have his friend or acquaintance build up some wheels http://forums.roadbikereview.com/...purchase-316433.html We don't know this wheel builder but it will be interesting to learn his impressions as well as any analytical data that is shared. Skeptics will be skeptics, credulous people will be credulous, and others will take what data they can garner and make their own decisions. I'm very curious what is learned from this one wheel builder. OK, proceed to flame away.

They certainly seem to be spending a lot on advertising, both on adverts and people.

Is it just me, or does this seem like this thread is a bunch of new users that are shills for the company? Lots of new users that are pumping and dumping Tokyo Wheels.

Would be interesting to see the IP addresses for a bunch of the posters...

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speedySTATES

It really damages the "brand" to treat people like idiots, and by trying to trick them into believing various things about the "product".

I was thinking the same thing after reading the latest post. I said it before and I'll say it again: this whole thread reads like an advertisement for Tokyowheel. I don't see the difference between them and any other re-branded Chinese carbon wheel.

I have seen em in real life. My bud got a set, sounds like the bearing in the rear hub is bad 3rd ride... Might be bad luck or something. They look like every other Chinese wheel I have seen... Still good deal though for the "latest" shape wheels.
Just info... Don't give a shit...

Jeff

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You can't fix stupid ..

Why would you say "we don't know this wheel builder" unless you were associated with Tokyowheel? "We" implies affiliation. Advertorial once shame on you... advertorial twice in the same thread scolding you for it....fuck you. This company will NEVER learn from their mistakes. They will continue to be disingenuous, blow smoke, and make a mediocre product at best. You want our trust, be honest from the get go. As for me, I will NEVER buy your product, I don't have the time to deal with this bullshit company mentality. The smoke and mirrors crap might fly elsewhere, but here no way. You've been called out by this crowd.. chalk up the loss and move on. The more you open your mouth the more you insert your foot Personally I like my crow served cold, you are asking for yours hot... a flaming carcass of crow you will eat, on a platter made of shame. ... sorry I'm watching the Bruins/Habs playoffs and I'm a little fired up. Cheers, good luck with your bankruptcy.

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"4 wheels move the body, 2 wheels move the soul"

Let me guess, the wheel builder referenced in the other forum works for Tokyowheel and will only have glowing reviews? You will never believe me but I want to know that I have not been duped. Can I trust any of the "wheel builder's" impressions or data? I hope that I can but I will never know with 100 % certainty. How foolish will I feel if this wheel builder surmises these to be re-branded crap? Immensely but you won't believe me.. By posting my very first reply I was actually trying to help Tokyowheel gain traction in the market but seems I may be contributing to damaging the brand. Visit the other forum or visit my youtube channel and look at the data. I see variations and the graphs demonstrate this but I just didn't know if this was significant or seen in other manufacturers. I tried to measure my ZIPP 202 Firecrest but the Firecrest shape was difficult to measure with my micrometer. The replicates had a tremendous amount of variation so I did not post the data. I know what you are thinking. This bloke works for them. No I don't, I am just pack fodder who is budget conscience. You guys may be right but my iphone is from China and I bet my Samsung tablet is too. Oh no, my computer is a DELL and I live 15 miles south of the corporate headquarters. What do you bet it is from China? Not everything from China is crap......well the iphone is up for debate. I am 2 pints in and find this entertaining so flame away.

Bruins up 3 to 1, nice. Not much of a hockey fan growing up in TX until the Stars relocated. I am just north of San Antone so hoping the Spurs are legit this time around, Duncan is almost done but sure liked his game over the years. Enjoyyour game.

Oh and when I said "we don't know this wheel builder" I do apologize for my lack of command for the English language; I am Texan after all and 50% redneck and 50% hillbilly. I was trying to convey "we" as those who care to know or those who have bought Tokyowheels or those who don't give a flying crap. OK, game 3 for the Spurs -vs- Portland is 9:30 Central and now I'm 3 pints in; better stop now I reckon if I want to see the entire game and stop messing around on this forum.

Most of your post doesn't make a whole lot of sense except for the last sentence.

The thread that you reference has a few things in common with this thread:

a) new poster to the forum uses their first post to talk about how great Tokyowheels are
b) all sorts of people accuse them of shilling
c) James Ferrer chimes in with the exact same posts (more or less, didn't compare them word for word) that are in this thread
d) people ask him very specific questions about how his wheels are different from, say, Farsports wheels which are half the cost and he talks about no customs fees, money back guarantee, crash replacement, etc.

I honestly believe that:

a) this post and the original post in the thread you reference: http://forums.roadbikereview.com/...rchase-316433-3.html are shill posts / guerrilla marketing by Tokyowheels
b) these wheels are made in China and retail from the factory for half the cost. They are re-badged and then sold for twice the price.

There's nothing wrong with rebadging wheels and selling them, there are tons of companies doing just that. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with these wheels (or Farsport wheels) it's the disingenuous marketing that turns me off.

X's- million. Thank ou for typing all that so I wouldn't have to on my tablet. What a joke. A terrible, obvious and not very funny joke.

Hi Guys,

This is my first post on this forum - so I guess I am open to be flamed. The reason I have joined is a couple of the posts mention a thread I have participated in on the road bike review forum.

The threads are located here:

http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/tokyo-wheel-epic-60-carbon-clincher-wheelset-recent-purchase-316433.html


and here


http://forums.roadbikereview.com/wheels-tires/tokyowheel-experience-323173.html


I am one of the original skeptics who along with Bob Dopolina identified the similarities between the Tokyo wheels and the Farsports ones and openly confronted him about those similarities. I was also the one who challenged him to send me a set of rims for my wheel builder to build up and test.


I can assure you that I have no association whatsoever with James Ferrer or Tokyowheels and neither does my wheel builder. I am now also working on a bicycle-related project with a very well known and highly regarded industry expert that could become very high profile and would not risk sullying that project with anything untoward for what is basically just a small and currently little known brand of wheels.


Whilst I am new here, I had been a member of the RBR forum for some time and only found the TW threads as I was looking to purchase two pairs of wheels for a custom Sarto frame that I am having made. I have been researching multiple brands amongst which TW was just one.


I have since had contact with James Ferrer who I believe to be genuinely passionate about his product, however the quality of it has yet to be proven to most of us.


I have purchased the rims for testing and have committed to purchasing a set of wheels if my wheel builder ok's them. I understand that once my wheel builder has finished testing them, those wheels may be made available to other wheel builders/testers elsewhere for evaluation. I have suggested to James Ferrer that if this is the case, in the interests of transparency and peace of mind he should find a willing wheel builder who is known and respected on the forums to contrast the results of my own wheel builder or failing that one of the known internet blogs that test and evaluate product.


Whilst because of the nature of forums it is difficult to convince people of ones honesty, lack of association or personal agenda's when you say anything positive or negative about a company, brand or product, those who have taken the trouble to read these threads will realise that to date I have said nothing positive about Tokyowheels and until such a time as they are tested by the wheel builder I trust, will have nothing to say. I remain for now a skeptical possible purchaser.


The only positives I can say are that a) James Ferrer stepped up to the plate when challenged by me on the RBR forum and b) on the face of it provides some pretty solid guarantees if you don't like or have a problem with the product.


I'd like to know if there is anybody who has taken up the 110% money back guarantee because they didn't like the wheels. If so why they were returned and if they received the 110% back.

Just to update you Mark 'the wheel whisperer'™ Stemmy (lol) has now received the wheels and rims. He is a bit busy with work at the moment but will get around to checking, testing and reviewing over the coming days.


He will also post how he is going to carry out his evaluation.

I like your effort here. I'll point out a design flaw in this review as an experiment though. It is highly unlikely that your inspector will be receiving a random sample of product. Likely it will have obtained additional QC. This would mean that this sample set represents the best quality offered by Tokyo wheel. I see it often with our component suppliers. First articles are often higher quality than production run samples. We always have higher tier inspection of first purchase quantities after part approval for this reason.

This is of course a possibility. But there is only so much you can do to a product to make it better than it is. If the rims are of poor quality, good quality well-tensioned spokes will only go so far. Hubs are hubs etc. I haven't checked, but as I understand it, these are his standard level clinchers that represent the bulk of his sales.

These have been sent in the normal amount of time it takes to send his wheels for normal orders. The other option would have been for me to purchase the wheels and then get them tested, but if they turned out to be poor I would be sitting on a $1000 mistake!

For now, this is the best I can do and it will at least answer some questions.

Mark Stemmy who will be carrying out the test on these wheels has just posted this on the RBR forum:

Hi RBR Forum,

This is Mark Stemmy from Optimized Cycling Solutions. For those that have not already been following this thread, I am a wheel builder, custom bike dealer and industry consultant located in Northern California. I’ve been asked by James Ferrer at Tokyo Wheels to evaluate and review a set of their wheels. Brands I have built and/or collaborated with in the past are ENVE, HED, Stan’s, Mavic for rims and Alchemy, White Industries, Chris King, Stealth and Campagnolo for hubs, among others.
I am very particular about the products I support and having spent 15 years in the silicon manufacturing industry I am very data and process driven. This will be a multi phase review including an initial inspection and evaluation, testing a set myself in the field (I am 6’4” and 235lbs currently), more extensive evaluation including wind tunnel testing against other brands, and a final report with my recommendation.

The current process will be the initial evaluation which will include, but not be limited to:

• Spoke tension for each spoke
• Average spoke tension for each side, on both wheels, expressed in kgf (kilograms of force)
• Standard deviation (variations in total spoke tension, expressed in kgf)
• Lateral runout (true)
• Vertical runout (round)
• Rim and hub dimensions
• Wheel weight
• Photos of the wheels, hubs, packaging and included accessories
• Detailed photos of the inside of the rim at the spoke interface
• Measurement of relative hub rotational friction with the QR closed, using proprietary OCS methodology
• Final report rolling up both the hard data along with anecdotal observations

I am working on multiple projects right now so it will likely be a week before I am able to complete the report. I will share a link to the report once it is complete.

I will also be building a set of wheels for Mambo, the rims for which have arrived, so I will be able to do a separate assessment of that process, as well as getting actual rim weight, as opposed to complete wheel weight.

Regards,
Mark

I have replied as follows:

"Wind tunnel comparison against other brands? Where did that one come from? Took me by surprise!

Mark and James, I would recommend that for forum members to have peace of mind, an independent third party be involved in the test and comparison and collate the results. Some forum members suspect that there may be an underhand collaboration involved and this would go some way to allaying their fears. To date wind tunnel data I have seen, has been prepared by the wheel brand carrying out the testing on their own wheels - I always suspect that the results are skewed in favour of the brand.

I recently saw a post on one of the forums somewhere where somebody offered to do independent wind tunnel testing of Flo wheels if forum members stumped in to help with costs (this would actually be a good brand to compare against as they are a similar spec and price bracket. I considered Flo, but they didn't do tubular and I felt they were too heavy for the type of riding I do anyway). I don't know what others think but I would like to see a comparison with what I consider to be the benchmark - ENVE 3.4's. For me it would be interesting to see just how wide the performance gap is between a $3,000.00 wheel and a $1,000.00 'reliably' Chinese manufactured wheel.

I will post this on the other TW related threads.

Just my thoughts...."

Hi All,

Here is a review of my 2 sets of Tokyowheels, hope my insight might help others gain more info about the wheels.

https://vimeo.com/97573706

For full disclosure I am associated with Tokyowheels, but was not when I made purchase of my first pair.

Yawn. BORING! Sounds like every other wheel review on every other site on the internet. Sorry to take the piss but if it smells funny and sounds repetitive it's probably marketing.

I wish people would quit using the following in standard wheel reviews:
-Feels stiff
-Spins up really quick
-Rides smooth
-and last but not least... Aerodynamic

Hi Guys,

The promised review of the wheels is posted on Mark's website here:

REVIEW: Tokyowheel Epic 38/50 wheelset Optimitized Cycling Solutions - 530-363-2697

If you have any questions, post them here and I will pass them on to him for a reply.

Coming out of the woodworks after years of lurking, must be that good!

reminds me of (the now non existent?) Karbon Speed. Link below for comparison

http://karbonspeed.com/aero-wheel-store.html#!/~/category/id=5511024&offset=0&sort=normal

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Founder: BestBikeSplit
Amazonian

Please tell me you are joking.

The "main players" produce wind tunnel data that you don't do. Yet you think that producing a plot of manufacturing tolerance (that is essentially what you have - with a massive sample size of 1), is more valuable than aero data.

James:

I think that having unbiased testing is a good step toward your marketing, but will not in and of itself improve your product's reputation. Chances are, it's not going to be at the top of list in any measurement, but right in the middle of the rest of the mid-market offerings. All that shows is that your product is as good as the rest. What is going to drive sales is 2 things: User Reviews and Price. If your product is as good as anything else, and priced well - it'll sell like hotcakes (hi, Flo), and if people on here are saying that they're pretty good - they'll sell.

Regarding demo days, as you said earlier in your post: "It would have been much more valuable to the community to have a review of the wheels after they had been ridden in a variety of conditions, for an extended period of time. The most significant evaluation of the wheels is, of course, do you enjoy riding them" No one is going to be able to come to that conclusion riding them around a parking lot or short loop at a demo day. You need to get some wheels in the hands of athletes, and I can't say this enough but they cannot be associated with Tokyowheel. Sure, it's a significant up front expense, but you'll get a far better return then popping around to various cities to see if someone shows up.

Sean

As an above average weekend amateur rider (who does the occasional tri / duathlon / fondo), I've been looking to go beyond a basic set of alloy rims but I can't really justify the spend on a pair of Zipp or Enve. I'm also skeptical about buying a set of rims off eBay because you can never really tell what you're getting. Hence TW has been an attractive option for me as it seems more legitimate.

This forum thread (and other Google searches for TW) have been helpful in some ways but has brought to light, two things:

1) I'm not looking for top performance. Getting 80-90% of the perf of a pair of Zipp for significant cost savings is well worth it to me (far better than what I have now!). However, what has never really been spoken of is how safe these wheels really are. Mark Stemmy's review is helpful in evaluating the build quality (the pull through seems a bit of a concern to me... anyone else?) but does not really go into what the rims will look like bombing down a hill at 70km/h. Nor does it tell me what the rim will look like going over a few potholes....

2) There's a lot of skeptics and flaming about TW and I can appreciate where and how it comes about. The concept of a TW is well placed especially as carbon tech becomes more and more of a commodity but the execution and messaging has caused a lot of doubt. For example: the 3 part vision, described as a "Master Plan" sounds sinister. I know it's not meant to be but this does have negative connotations. The vision is also a bit vague when it doesn't need to be. 1) Bring US-built carbon wheels into the Japanese market. 2) Build industry relationships and leverage the capital created to build branded wheels. 3) Invest further into R&D to become best of breed (or whatever step 3 is). Point being, the message is long-winded, cloudy and leaves a lot of questions over the firm's legitimacy. In the marketing space, random links to unqualified Youtube videos doesn't cut through the skepticism. To build the brand, you need to legitimise yourself... the OCS review was actually the first time this has happened but it needs to go further... i.e. go to cycling / tri events (in Europe and North America) to demo the product, send demo units to Bicycling mag, etc. If you can't fund such an effort, ship a few wheels over and partner with someone in that area who can sell the message for you.

Also, it might help deflect the naysayers by being clear on who your target customer is. Are you creating a viable option to Zipp? Unlikely especially without certification. So make that clear but if desired, make it a vision to become that viable competitor.

An internet-only business can be incredibly difficult to start if it relies on building a brand which this product category requires so I commend your efforts. But I'd hope for more "official" reviews and news about the product rather than hearing it form forums, Youtube, etc.

I hope you don't take any offense from my comments as I believe the business concept has real potential and could disrupt the pricey rims market (wish I had thought about it / had access to the manufacturers!). The product will continue to improve over time but what is really needed is more legitimacy of the brand, its safety, performance and quality... no it doesn't need to appear in the Tour but does need to be reviewed by recognised, impartial, qualified 3rd parties.

Unfortunately, I'm still on the fence.