Don't mind me, just fixing some popcorn.

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My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com

Here's the letter

I don't know anything, but I suspect plenty. This comes right after they opened a second store. (And already closed it.) They overreached with the expansion, as did many other businesses over the years. It wouldn't surprise me if they got a loan to open that second store, and the store was a bust, and they couldn't pay the loan back.

I'd just take the letter at face value. Not uncommon that if you have a line of credit and lose it to have big issues paying bills.

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Styrrell

sorry, but as a banker I highly doubt the bank just up and called their line and equipment loans without warning. No judge in America would side with a bank on a "technical default" (ie missed a covenant) if the bank sues on a technical default. Something smells fishy here.

I just want to throw this out there if / before things get ugly in here. I know Seton and Debbie (the owners), and the are two of the nicest people you're likely to meet. They're a huge supporters of the Triathlon community and the Tucson community. There may have been mistakes or misjudgments and it's unfortunate. I was saddened to hear this news.

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"I can eat 21 plus a deep-fried turkey!"

HUGE

Wow.....this took awhile to get here. Curious as to why the "press release" was submitted to XTri and not ST. Or maybe it was....

I am saddened beyond belief, but not at all surprised.

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Not surprised. I only ever tried ordering from trisports.com three times, but all three times the items were placed on back order, despite showing as "in stock" on the ordering page, and all three times, it took them a week to tell me it was on back-order, resulting in me canceling. It's hard to keep a positive cash flow operating that way.

Were you buying sale items? If so, then there were probably a ton of other people that wanted the same product you did and others' orders were fulfilled first. The item probably *was* in-stock, just not a million quantity at super-low price.

Side note, I did try to buy a wheelset a couple years back from a company that didn't keep stock in the wheels, but rather purchased them to resell them whenever they received an order for that item. They listed the wheelset for the price of one wheel, I noticed it and paid, and they never sent my goods. I nearly took them to court over it before they finally sent my money back.

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__________________________

I tweet!

I don't remember what they were exactly as it was probably two years ago, but they definitely weren't clearance items - I think a set of replacement aerobar pads once and some tri shorts another.

who says it was a "technical default"? Lines of credit have maturity dates. Typically one year at a time, maybe 2 for a really strong borrower. If you get to the maturity date and the bank won't extend, it's not a "technical default"; it's a payment default. As a banker's lawyer, I've seen plenty of borrowers file with for bankruptcy protection as the result of non-renewal of a line of credit. I'm not implying it was totally out of the blue, but if you can't get another lender to refinance because your financial condition is worse or the credit environment is changed (or usually both) and your existing lender won't extend, you are going to file.

I would go with that above, but read into the fact that they called their equipment loan too. These are 99.9% of the time closed ended terms loans. Given maybe they are cross collateralized with cross default language etc, who knows.

Agreed. And all those "unpaid vendors" best not expect any payment anytime soon. And when payments do resume they will probably be spread out over a very long period of time. Being in business for alot of years now I cringe everytime I see a letter from a bankruptcy trustee. I bought alot of things from TriSports at one time. Hate to see them having problems.

+1

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My business link.
My sponsors' links.
My coupon codes.
Pictures of my wife.

so are they basically going to be done now? No way their vendors are going to supply them unless it's COD. Will they basically have to go to a drop shipment type internet company?

I agree, I've bought a lot of stuff from them in the past and have been satisfied with the service etc. etc.

Not sure if they will be "done" but it will certainly be much more difficult for them to obtain financing. So unless they have other avenues to pursue regarding raising capital I would imagine it will be difficult if not possible to resume normal business. Inventory intensive businesses require alot of working capital. You either borrow it, raise it some other way (investors, capital markets etc) or generate it thru your current revenue stream.

So, um, does this mean that there's going to be a kickass sale soon?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Reads like all of the above. LOC, probably blew covenants repeatedly and did not have a good handle on projections. LOC was not extended, cannot find a takeout bank, LOC matured and bank accelerated the equipment loan as well. Chapter 11, so it will be interesting to see if they can get a plan together acceptable to the court. They will need to find a DIP lender or equity in the near term or this will flip to a Chapter 7.

15 year seasoned corporate banker, thus seen situations like this multiple times. First, rarely does a company say they are late on their bills, thus the bank canceled their LOC, etc. Than bank always gets the first blame because it's easy. The business owner never sees the same level of risk the bank sees. The business owner also has a tendency to believe a bank is a partner in the business, which they are not.

LOC's mature anywhere from 1-3 years, depending on size. Bank can opt not to mature for any reason. Maybe they just don't want to lend to retail business. Don't matter. Blown covenants can trip default, however rarely do. Blown covenants usually result in additional monitoring and an increase in interest rate. Again, all relevant to size of the relationship. The smaller the relationship, the tougher the bank will be. What's small to one can be huge to another bank, so again relevant.

Contrary to public opinion, banks do not like seeing their clients in bankruptcy (or foreclosures). The collection rate drops significantly. With that said, I've pushed clients into bankruptcy because that was the only option left for whatever reason. Blaming the bank like Trisports is doing is just a smoke screen for the real problem.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

No way, that's so subtle it get's like +1000000

Maybe that's why they brought him in! Experience

Or, everywhere he goes bad things happen. Felt is next

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Wonder if this is going to impact Team USA uniforms that tri sports was supplying for ITU worlds races coming up?

I am guessing my USAT TriSports discount coupon isn't worth the paper it is printed on!!

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Rich G.
Proud member of the Geritol wave!

Used it to get my Profile Design water bottle. Arrived yesterday. *phew*

I would think so. I ordered USAT Certified coaching gear, and it was months and months of excuses, with me never getting what I wanted. They seemed to blame TYR, but now it makes more sense why I could never get my order filled.....

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Gary Geiger
http://www.geigerphoto.com Professional photographer

TEAM KiWAMi NORTH AMERICA http://www.kiwamitri.com, Rudy Project http://www.rudyprojectusa.com, GU https://guenergy.com/shop/ ; Salming World Ambassador; https://www.shopsalming.com

sad day when anyone goes out of business.

Chapter 11 would most likely get them out of the lease in the Tempe store. Otherwise, they would probably be on the hook for hundreds of thousands of dollars in rent on an empty building. That could be the major factor in their decision to go this way. Vendors are not going to cut them off because they are a little slow paying, especially after millions of dollars worth of purchases. They are all hurting for business too. I suspect that after they get this behind them, they will come out stronger than ever.

Gary - you have now opened a whole new can of worms. You reply with facts....TriSports has had a few months of luxury waiting for the inevitable. Now, they will get the trial by internet - isnt it odd that ST did not break the story? You did not flame them on the forum...however, you did point out a contention. We wait...we wait for promises and what not...

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGRNHiMN9ZI

Agreed, very well played!

Unfortunately there are way too many online retailers that are horrible businesses. There are various sites that are notorious for having product in back order despite showing "in stock". It's false advertising and I view it as fraudulent.

These companies never have the product and most likely simply order/buy/try to get the product after you place your order. When they have trouble finding it (mind you they don't actually tell you all of this...you simply assume it already shipped)...nevertheless when they have trouble finding it, they may give you a call about it. Most likely, you have to call for them to say its on back order. Many of these shady online stores don't have the financial capital to keep much inventory. The basic premise in this whole saga is cash flow management - timing cash inflow with various cash outflows, all the while using short-term funds for personal compensation etc. Once time has run the course, the business declares bankruptcy yet the owners move on.

In my case, I cancelled my order immediately and went to an online store where I called one of the workers and had them physically walk to their warehouse to check to see if they had the product, which they did and said yes.

Never, ever, buy something on back order. Doesn't apply just to triathlon gear, but anything.

P.S. This trisports site charges excessive amounts for shipping. Never came close to placing an order with them since there is no reason.

This will take a little pressure off my inbox.

If you were a banker, doesn't sound as though you worked on distressed debt or workouts.

Bank can opt not to mature for any reason. I think you mean bank can opt to not to renew.

Blown covenants can trip default, however rarely do. Absolutely false, I can tell you blown covenants result in a minimum of a reservation of rights letter about 80-90% of the time. It rarely results in acceleration or litigation, but a covenant default is still a default and triggers action and often times an amendment only after the default has been noticed.

Contrary to public opinion, banks do not like seeing their clients in bankruptcy (or foreclosures). Again false, if the bank is fully secured they may prefer bankruptcy.

The rest I agree with to a large extent.

It's always sad to see small businesses file. I've been in the banking world for 20 years covering a wide range of industries. Their letter was well crafted. It's never the borrower's fault and the bank is always made out to be the bad guy. After reading the letter and knowing about their expansion, it looks like they took on a little too much debt, second store failed, probably could not sublease it, first store was still underperforming, liquidty and free cash flow getting tight, bank getting nervous, borrower started to live off the line of credit to support other financial obligations (lease payments, term payments) and losses, both parties probably met on several occasions about the Claggett family stepping up on the personal side (no personal guaranty it looks like), them knowing it was too late to fix the cap structure, trends, lease agreements they said no way, blew a covenant or two, bank sent reservations of rights letter, asked them one more time about a capital call, they refused, froze line (which is usually the last straw), cash flow and liquidty not enough to support business, had some other local banks tell them no way on a refi, probably rode the payables a bit the last month to buy some time, then filed. This is a tough industry for DIP lending. Depending on how bad they rode the payables and treat vendors post-petitiion, it could be a long rode for them. They were lucky the bank did not have a personal guaranty. Most small businesses have to give one. Interesting to see they had enough personal liquidity to keep the company going post bankruptcy. Looks like the bank was the one taking the equity risk on their deal.

Got received mine with my renewal. Problem I've always found is that it's not such a deal to begin with since can't use any freeshipping & prices are higher to begin with. Works out to many be $2-3 on the minium $40 order.

Agreed. The bogus discount, in my opinion, reflects equally poorly on USAT.

~~ kate

I'm going to step in on this one. I own an internet retail business. We sell bodyboarding gear. We are experts in this field since both my wife and I were full time pro bodyboarders. There are SO MANY different products we sell that we would go bankrupt if we tried to stock every item we have on the site. HOWEVER...we don't have "in stock" or "out of stock" messages at all on our site. 90% of the products we carry, the ones that consistently sell well, we stock, but the other 10% are more specialized items that customers may want, but it's not cost-effective to stock if I only sell one every 2-3 months, so in most of those cases, we'll have a notice on the item that says something like, "We do not stock this item. Please allow 2-3 days for us to get it for you once you've ordered." Additionally, keeping a website with other 2,000 products constantly updated when, for example, a blue, size large t-shirt sells out is a full-time job in itself. Sometimes, we'll have one left of an item, and someone orders it at 2am when we're all sleeping, so that item isn't removed from the site until the next business day. If a second customer orders it before we've had the chance to remove it, we immediately contact that customer to let them know it's out of stock and give them options.

Now, in your defense, if they are displaying "in stock" messages and NOT contacting their customers immediately when something's missing, THAT is not good business in my opinion, but until you try to run a small internet business (my wife and I have 2 year 'round employees and 1 seasonal employee), don't knock it.

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My business-eBodyboarding.com

My experience with trisports is that on a (very) few occasions, they didn't have an item in stock even though it was listed as is, but I typically got an email within a couple of hours saying the item wasn't in stock...

We use a system called Netsuite. I don't even know what "FTE" means. Netsuite is a cloud-based ecommerce system, and does have the capability to remove sold items, but it would take me several paragraphs to explain why we don't do that. Long story!

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My business-eBodyboarding.com

First off: Hi Gail!

Second: Everyone needs to calm down. What was posted at Xtri wasn't a press release; it was the email that Seton sent to his vendors to appraise them of what was going on. It wasn't meant for public release. Sadly, Xtri decided to put it out there. Bummer.

I kindly received a call from Seton just a few days ago, just so I heard it from the horse's mouth on what really was going on and didn't get sucked into what happens here 100 percent of the time: inaccurate "sky is falling" conjecture.

What happened? Trisports received a loan to open the Tempe location, the bank decided after the opening to repeal the loan and Trisports had to file in order to close the Tempe location and reorganize the debt for that location. That's it. The Tucson store and online operations continue status quo.

I asked whether he wanted to do a release, but we both agreed it wasn't really worth creating a stir; they are not out of business, vendors are being paid, consumers are buying product out of their Tucson location, orders are being fulfilled. Seton said he's spoken directly to probably 2/3s of his vendors to let them know, and all of them are being looked after; nobody is being left out in the cold after this.

So long story short, Trisports are not going out of business; they simply had to shutter the Tempe location and reorganize the debt. All is status quo with their flagship Tucson location. Everyone will have to look elsewhere for their pre-race gear at Ironman Arizona this fall. That's about it. You can still shop online and shop in-store in Tucson. The worst is that a handful of Tempe location employees are out of a job. Seton said he offered jobs to some in Tucson, but being Phoenix people, some maybe ASU students, etc., they opted to stay.

As other have said, Seton and Debbie are as stand-up as they come. I've known them forever, and as a fellow Tucsonan I have a kinship. They're invested in this sport in a way few other retailers are. They're lifers, and have built an amazing reputation, both personally and professionally. That will continue.

So... everyone can cease running around in circles flapping their arms wildly. Sorry, had to step in and stop this rumor mill from spinning wildly out of control.

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Jay Prasuhn
Marketing Specialist, American Bicycle Group (Quintana Roo//Litespeed//Obed)
twitter.com/jayprasuhn

FTE=Full Time Equivalent(or 40 hrs/week). Just trying to save you some time :). Very nice website by the way.

FTE - Full Time Employee

I think the cost of a back end system to really reconcile online inventory vs in store inventory is quite pricey and really only worth it if a large part of your business is generated that way. Otherwise, a nice disclaimer at check-out that if an item turns out to be out of stock the buyer will be notified and the item put on back-order unless the buyer notifies the seller to cancel the order.

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Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce

Banks don't just decide to repeal a loan. A loan is a binding contract. The only way to 'repeal' a loan is for clauses within the contract to be broken. When that happens, it's not a 'repealed' loan it's a 'called' loan. Big difference. How you worded it implies that it was the banks fault. It's easy, and typical, to blame the bank because it's a faceless corporation. But there is more to the story than the bank just 'repealing' the loan.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

1) That's a nice story but not how banks operate.

2) Bad things happen to good people too, nobody on here has questioned the character of the owners.

3) Chapter 11 allows them to continue to operate, but they have to file a plan that will satisfy the debt holders, period. They can't just file and ignore the debt problem and go on living happily ever after.

In today's environment, people like to blame banks when things go wrong, especially after this past recession. People blamed the banks for collapsing the economy, yet they don't see any fault in the homeowners who purchased a house based on loan structure instead of cash flow. Homeowners share just as much blame as the investment banks.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

Well, we don't run press releases on slowtwitch, nor do we copy and paste articles from other sites. :-)

I'm not exactly sure what your point is.

You spent your comment saying how you run your business and I'm glad to see you don't mislead your customers.

I will simply restate my original comment: There are many online retailers that are frauds...labeling products (that no one else seems to have) as in-stock, while in fact they are not in stock and this retail has no means or plans to get it in stock.

I am not going to give a small business a free pass just because they are a small business. Why should anyone do that?

I'd take issue with the last point. Even if the bank is fully collateralized, almost no banker want to own bikes (or property or other assets). It's a huge headache to unwind and most would prefer the company to operate on its own.

Someone on this thread said:

"Trisports received a loan to open the Tempe location, the bank decided after the opening to repeal the loan and Trisports had to file in order to close the Tempe location and reorganize the debt for that location. That's it. The Tucson store and online operations continue status quo."

That is very scary. So Trisports formed a new entity just for its new retail shop? And then leverage itself beyond being able to sustain itself? Surely this loan repeal didn't come out of thin air, right? Sounds like one of these shady cash flow dependent restaurants where a few rough months and the owner easily declares bankruptcy, walks away with plenty of cash paid out to the other subsidiaries, only to repeat the same thing somewhere else.

Take issue all you want, but I can point to my experience making these decisions directly. a) Doesn't sound like you understand Chapter 11. b) Banks prefer to get repaid and they don't wish to have classified assets sitting on their books. c) In this case, the bank clearly understood the company was likely going to need to file BK if they didn't provide relief.

Repealing (part) of a loan is exactly what a bank did to me and a friend of mine a couple of years ago though...And we didn't have the financial resources to fight them.
That little joke cost me $100k since I decided to pay my debts rather than file for bankruptcy. Note that there was nothing on our end that changed, they just decided to
lower the amount unilateraly, which meant we didn't have enough to start the business (after signing for the lease, paying the architect etc...)

So, YES, it happens. Some banks have power. And they will fuck you if they can.

It's a pretty common story for retailers. Strong flagship(s). Looking to expand. Either opens up in the wrong spot or wrong market. New lease and losses chew up cash flow from flagship location(s). Blow a covenant. Bank reserves rights, but usually looks for owners to step up. They never do. One last warning flare by freezing line of credit. They don't budge. Boom. Acceleration process starts. Borrower files and issues press release how the bank forced them to do it. In the end the bank took the equity risk with no equity upside. Charges off loan. Owners walk away from leases and other obligations. Usually try to work with key vendors, but the lesser ones will get hosed. Repeat cycle.

Sweet....unfounded attacks on experience! Well allow me to retort.

A. Pretty sure I didn't just fall out of grad school and end up opining on a message board.
B. Obviously the bank wants to be repaid, but re-read your initial premises, just because you are fully secured with the collateral doesn't mean the collateral will actually cover the debt load....therefore, you would rather operate than have them declare chapter 11. (This was my only point from my previous post)
C. Evidently the bank believe the collateral will cover the debt, but it doesn't guarantee it and I can assure you the bank likely exhausted all other options prior to allowing this to slip into ch 11.

The deeper you go on the lender spectrum the more you need to know your documents and rights. Your note could of been a demand note, which looks no different on the surface but the banks can call it at will. No reason needed. Lowering your amount with no defaults sounds more corporate card related, which is something the banks can do. The more aggressive the lender, the more you have to know your documents. Trisports was a multimillion business and in BOW's small business group. Their rules are more traditional versus what I mentioned above. It's pretty clear what happened here, no matter what their press release says.

Possibly...I am not very business savvy (as you could tell)...but the bank totally screwed us on this thing. But because we could pay back the incurred debts ( of a business that didn't even start...) we decided to not take the easy way out even though we were in no way responsible. Needless to say I will never bank with this bank and when I bought my home, I asked that the smaller mortgage co. not sell to this bank and had a clause added to that effect.

Agree with saltman on this, in my business (Real Estate), I see banks do pretty stupid stuff in regards to foreclosures...

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

Hey, Jay! :-)

You will notice that I had "quotation marks" around press release, which I hoped would express my doubt about the document in question. However, I did come to ST first upon hearing rumors of financial troubles and was surprised to NOT see anything here. Whether or not ST accepts "press releases", it seems that this is pretty big news in the industry and I expected to find facts, and perhaps analysis, on the pages here.

I am deeply troubled by the issues facing TriSports.com.......many years of association and representation are not so quickly forgotten.

G

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It's a little like wrestling a gorilla.........you don't stop when you're tired.........you stop when the gorilla is tired.

Yup. No disrespect to trisports (not piling on), but I tried to use my usat discount a couple of times and discovered better prices elsewhere without the 'benefit'. So, yet, kinda of misleading advertising in USAT's part. I mean, you get the discount(presumably) but the resulting price isn't useful.

Yes, as a banker being fully secured, we have preferred bankruptcy filing. It's usually when we've had a borrower that is
unwilling or not capable of bringing additional equity or doing anything else to get us repaid in a timely manner. At least through the bankruptcy court you can get movement towards a resolution, although typically at a snail's pace. So yes from personal experience there are times when a banker would prefer a bankruptcy filing.

I'm not going to post my resume, but I have worked with special assets and after I left corporate banking, I was hired as a third party consultant either by the bank, the FDIC or SEC to help banks with criticized assets, capitalization, or whatever other issue they had going on. I've helped clear two banks from C/D orders and I've been an expert witness in court for banks when it comes to liquidating commercial assets.

To think a bank prefers bankruptcy, even when fully collateralized, is absolutely ridiculous. I can't imagine sitting in a meeting and recommending we put this client into bankruptcy because we are fully collateralized. If any of my lenders said that, I'd show them the door. I've liquidated multiple commercial businesses and it was the LAST thing I wanted to do (even though I was fully collateralized).

A blown covenant is not going to accelerate a loan into default. Every single one of my clients have covenant mitigation clauses. The community banks I worked with did not have such wording, but once I was done with them they did. You blow a covenant, you must pay $x until the covenant is in compliance. It takes multiple episodes of blown covenants to accelerate a loan. What the bank doesn't want to do is downgrade the loan because once that happens, loan loss reserves increase, which means profits decrease. If a client blows a covenant, and it's temporary, no biggie. Lender signs off on it (or whoever has to approve it). If it's a bigger issue, then the lender reevaluates if the covenant makes sense. Again, the LAST thing we want to do is trip the mitigation clauses, which could result in a downgrade. Just about every community bank I consulted didn't really know how to handle blown covenants. They'd stick some officer memo in the file about how they discussed the issue with the client, yada yada yada. They bring me in, and I change all that. Some of the most intense battles I had as a consultant was downgrading commercial loans. Thankfully I was either hired by the board or the regulators so what I said went.

Anyways, the point is that banks don't just call a loan because they want too. Something else is happening to cause the bank to take action. Banks make their money on interest income. Why would they want to call a loan, thus lose that interest income? There's more to the story.

I have seen a bank exit an industry. I was hired to get a small community bank out of tool and die industry. They had a lot of great relationships, but some executive somewhere said they don't want that industry any more. Even with that, we didn't call loans. We certainly didn't renew loans, but we (I) worked with their clients to transition them to their new bank. It was a smooth process and the bank did get out of the industry.

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The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design.

You mention business liquidation, my experience is in RE, my statement about banks doing stupid things still stands.

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I *heart* weak, dumb ass people...

gail, you'll read our comments - my comments - here.

i have known about this for some time, but the way i knew about it was because seton alerted me to it. i did not write anything because he alerted me to it while extracting from me a promise not to write about it, or talk to anyone, until chapter 11 was filed. the news was not a shock to me, in fact i pretty much expected it, because of things i write in the article referenced above.

that established, the wait of a few days was due to a couple of things. first, i wanted to hear back from some of trisports vendors. second, i spent the last week tiling my kitchen, and while my lovely and talented wife made all of our backsplash accent tiles (she's a potter) they're all in various shapes and sizes and i spent a lot of time making strange and arcane miters and cussing a lot as well. so, between cutting tiles, tiling, grouting, etc., and waiting to hear from vendors, well, things just got a bit sideways.

i wouldn't let anyone else on our team write about this, because whatever it was we were going to write i wanted to write in a way that sort of threw a net over this: what is the debt? at least the debt that the bank is calling. and then there is some background to bring us up to where we are right now. this filing isn't just a bank calling a debt. there's more to it.

and, then, if the vendors weren't going to ship any more, then, that's all she wrote. so i wanted to see where vendors were on this. i felt until i could take their temperature i couldn't write to slowtwitchers in any operative way, that is, should feel okay buying from trisports or not?

so, there you go. for what it's worth. pics of the kitchen to follow.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman, I just read your notes. Good stuff. Your insider experience and accessability are truly value added to the already valuable resource that is ST.

Trisports has gotten a lot of my money over my short 5 years in triathlon and will continue to get my money.

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The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody

Solid write up. However, your "largest airlines and auto companies" bankruptcy comparison made me giggle given how poorly run both industries have been run for many years. Not sure if that was a kidney shot or a simple example. Either way, nice summary.

TriSports got sucked into the pre-2008 bank will give you powerball money and made classic stupid business decisions of expanding too fast and too big at the wrong time buying crazy amounts of inventory when the rest of LBS where going the opposite direction. They are mostly an online business...why invest in a crazy building in an awful industrial area that you can't ride too with every environmental bell and whistle that any expert will tell you takes years to recover. They used to be in a hole in the wall closet on the outskirts that you could not find. In addition, they have a reputation in the community and within the industry of crappy in store service with attitude unless you are a big name. I've also experienced lack of customer service/interest with their phone reps. Ironic, sense most of the employees are age groupers or friends of the owners and probably couldn't change an inner tube. They made their money on the baby boomer tri explosion in which 99% of those customers couldn't change an inner tube either and because they read an article in a magazine that $3,000 wheels or a $14,000 bike is going to make them an athlete they whip out their platinum card.

Sadly not many people left who will get this.

From past experience I bet the deals have already been had!
Sounds like there is a common denominator here.
BikeSport Michigan
Trisports Tuscon
Next
Felt Bikes? It to bad I really like my Felt Bikes.
When are people going to get sick of TD boasting about himself and screwing over customers.

n


TD was based in Tucson but the store in Tempe was the problem.

So...two months later a thread gets revived to bash an employee that had left long before the Tempe store and that fallout occurred?

Let me guess, you got screwed on product and hold a grudge.

John

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Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |

Ummm, pretty sure he didn't revive the thread. Someone else revived it, not saying a thing about the employee, and this person happened to chime in with said bashing. Sounds like you're just as quick to bash...

The bigger picture here is the massive convulsions that the whole business( the whole tri and indeed the sport specialty retailing business) is going through right now. It's compunded by the fact that the despite what USAT and other bodies are saying, the growth in triathlon is flattening out quickly. Many can't/won't see it, because they are too focused on what's going on at Ironman/70.3 races( adding more and more races, and races selling out quickly).

If you want to get a better picture of what's going on. Go talk to smaller LBS and tri-shops, and regional/local small to mid sized triathlons and triathlon series. Then you'll get a better idea of what's going on.

On the retail side of things, all I can say is this business is extraordinarily hard and challenging at the best of times. People see the $3,000(or much more) bikes wheeled out of the shop and think, "Wow! They must be killing it!". When times were better, I saw many, tri-focussed shops open up, or even bigger more established bike stores, really go after the Tri-Market. Indeed, Dan Empfield, wrote a defining industry focused piece, about 3 years ago, about Best Practices, for new stores, or established stores thinking of going in that direction - http://www.slowtwitch.com/...ed_by_Tri__1201.html

However, since Dan wrote that piece, a whole wave of tri-shops have come and gone, and many of the bigger bike shops who started to go in that direction have retreated from that, and backed completely away from triathlon. As noted the game has changed significantly since then - and that was just 3 short years ago.

As for TriSports - they were really pioneers, and they set the bar high in the business. They are going through some challenges. But the people behind it are smart, and I have confidence that they will sort through this and reinvent themselves.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Thanks to Visa, Felt Bikes and Fraser Cycle I didn't get screwed but that character tried very hard to do just that. Maybe I do hold a bit of of grudge.
I might get over it some day!
Cheers

The bigger picture here is the massive convulsions that the whole business( the whole tri and indeed the sport specialty retailing business) is going through right now
__________

I think your "bigger picture" is still pretty microscopic .... the problem is that the US and North American economy is still unrecovered from recession and poor government policies in the US ( I can't speak for Canada). All small businesses are hurting and see little light at the end of the tunnel yet ... it's not just tri and sports retailing. People just don't have the disposable income they had even 5 years ago .... and what they have they want to hang onto until they feel a little more comfortable with economic stability.

Dave

Nicely Stated. could not agree more = Saturation and weeding out is what is happening.

It's not just that, its the fact that Trisports isn't a discount retailer online. Why would I order online from them for full price when I can find 95 percent of the products online for a discounted price. If I want to pay full price I can just go to my LBS, which is a whole lot easier if I need to make a return or have a problem with the product.

This is a good point. The specialty retail modle provides a greater selection from one location and ideally more expertise and knowledge of products. The great selection model is not longer important with online retailers like Amazon on jsut a basic Google search able to find you what you want anywhere. Heck, I bought my Zipp 808 FC Clincher from Perfomrance Bike. I'm not sure they even carried Zipp 1 or 2 years ago and I wouldn't have gone to them for a specialty product like that. Did I almost buy a Bontrager Aeolus 9 D3 clincher from my LBS. Yes, but guess what? Bontrager in their brilliance had a big employee purchase promotion and gutted their inventory. Way to go Bontrager.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

I wouldn't say all small business is hurting or even small sports specialty. Run specialty has been in a boom for the last few years and well run operations are hitting record sales numbers every month. On top of that the best run stores are openning new doors to great success and strong sales without canabalizing sales from their original store

If you look at the Tri market there are clear signs that the industry is not in a great place.

Craft - no tri apparel for 2014
Sugoi - pretty much 1 short and 1 tri top being offered for 2014
Pearl - while they will still offer a good line they dropped a few color options as they didn't need as many options
Zoot - No clue what they are up to, haven't heard from them in a year so we dropped them after 9 years

The majority of local races I see numbers are flat or down. WTC is still fine but the local scene where people get their start in the sport is not as strong partly due to oversaturation

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Boots
Fleet Feet Rochester, NY
Fleet Feet Buffalo, NY
YellowJacket Racing, Rochester, NY

Dave,

Agreed. That's why I said "Best of times". Clearly these are not Best of times!

At the beginning of the current economic situation there was some thought/hope that because of the good demographics of triathletes(well off) that the sport would be OK - and it was for a time. However as this flat economy goes on, it's starting to have an impact.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If you look at the Tri market there are clear signs that the industry is not in a great place.

Craft - no tri apparel for 2014
Sugoi - pretty much 1 short and 1 tri top being offered for 2014
Pearl - while they will still offer a good line they dropped a few color options as they didn't need as many options
Zoot - No clue what they are up to, haven't heard from them in a year so we dropped them after 9 years

Boots,

Good info.

These are markers that, the numbers, are not growing, they may be flat or in decline for Tri.

Agreed, that run retail is still decent. The advantage here is you have the turn of shoes - I would assume - every few months, people need new shoes.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I agree...outside the IM and 70.3 World the numbers seemed to have peaked at out local triathlons in 2009 and are in decline....I am in Minneapolis which has an incredible offering of Triathlons in the local marked, and its still healthy, but the BOP participants seemed to have moved on to the Mud Run/Zombie Run/Color Run experience. At the end of the season I am going to run some numbers but I was at a triathlon that had 400-500 people in 2009 and had about 270 this year....

3 years ago I was seeing MANY Mt bikes in the tranisition area in local sprint triathlons but there is noticably less of the participants this year....

I think your comment about Mt bikes is telling. I believe one of the limiters to growth is cost. We have people convinced they need to spend thousands on bikes, race wheels, training plans, nutrition products etc. just to compete. Looking at the bike paddock at any triathlon for someone who is considering giving it a try for the first time can be very intimidating. Being a Canadian we have similar issues with our national pastime "hockey" and declining enrollment. While I am certain there are numerous factors at play, skates now cost $500 a pair, sticks are made from carbon fiber and can cost well over $100. People wonder why basketball and soccer are growing up here at the same time - its because if I have shoes, shorts and a t-shirt, I am set. This is not all that different to running or the tough mudder.

You speak to one of the bigger issues that we face going forward: inclusivity and accessibility. How do we continue to embrace those looking to start the sport? How do we also do so without, in the opinion of some, water down the sport?

Retail is only a reflection of the health of the endurance sports community at large. If anything, we as retailers need to do the most to be building the sport and help harbor those beginners. After all, we all had to start somewhere. Be more than just the store; be a resource, be visible to your community, and be inclusive.

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

I'll be honest. It's a shit load of money to even stay in triathlon on top of the decipline/time required to train.

My girlfriend thinks its crazy that I would spend $75 for an aero bottle or 5 grand on a bike ( and shes just a runner). It all adds up quickly and it takes away from the simplicity for newcomers and can be intimidating as well.

If you watch some tri videos from the 80s, those guys where going just as fast without all the bullshit gadgetry or fancy clothing we have today.

I do think that we often fall into the trap of "keeping up with the Joneses" and it leads to skewing inventory towards your elite customer. That said, there is also pricing too low, and devaluing your brand.

But inventory mix and pricing, IMO, are only end game issues: you are converting people who are already interested in tri to making a purchase. How do we make the sport more inclusive for beginners so that they may wind up one of those elite customers? That's the question store owners and managers should be asking: how do I help grow the community?

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Editor-in-Chief, Slowtwitch.com | Twitter

Geez, I can't see why a company that charges $14 to ship me $20 bar tape, would be filing for bankruptcy. It's a mystery.

The problem for bike shops is that they are really poor retailers blaming a poor market.

Performance bike is the store to hate but they are smart retailers for many reasons. For example, how many of you have dropped $2K plus at an LBS and never heard from them until you walked in the store next? Buy from PB and its non-stop follow up via email.

Now take bike shop group rides. How many of these are used by the bike shop to sell something to the people attending? How many use these rides to build a strong "LBS community"? Do people consume sports drinks / energy bars on these rides and where are they buying them?

Does the average LBS realize how hard it is to show up at the weekly group ride on a new bike bought from a competitor when the attendees feel a strong sense of belonging to this group?

There are many ways to boost sales at the LBS but they incorporate almost none of the basic tools to retail success.

I've seen he same thing. Evne my local dinky race has number up aroudn 50-60 including teams 8 years ago. Last year I think 20 or so showed up and no teams. Some of that is poor marketing, poor choce of race dates.

As for sprints, I've also heard it mentioned that a lot of veterans are focusing on only a couple long course events each year and either don't see the benefit of doing "been there done that" local races that they are only getting slower at as they get older, or WTC races are so f***** expensive that they can only afford 2 of those event a year before their spouse is ready to file papers.

I know it's a financial strain. Do I race more, get a coach or get a power meter? Pick one! I'd ratehr race more, since otherwise, WTF is the point.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

How do we continue to embrace those looking to start the sport? How do we also do so without, in the opinion of some, water down the sport?

Ryan,

We are going off on different tangents here, but it does loop back to the topic, eventually.

We've all I think, inadvertently made the sport too imposing and expensive. It might need a bit of a re-think.

I was part of a think-tank back in the winter. A gathering of some of the top people on the event management side, the marketing/promotional side, key media players, athletes and retailers. We brain-stormed for two days. It was interesting what we came up with. I can't tell you what it was - it's still under wraps at the the moment. But we did push that re-set and re-think button, and the outcome was interesting. The bottom line for all involved, was that we wanted more people active and more people involved with triathlon. That should be good news for everyone.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

^This...$14 to ship compression socks to the midwest ended any chance of me being a customer. I haven't been back to the website since.

That's great to hear. I think one positive thing is all the youth triathlon races. If you make it a more culturally popular sport, the numbers will defnitely grow. Having most youth swimmers considering mutisport, is a big plus. You can;t do much of anything professonally as a swimmer... but you can as a triathlete.

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TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Failure is an important part of capitalism.

Fleck,

you have far more experience than I in this area, but couldn't there also be other things going on. Things such as more competition where incoming competitors are doing things far better than existing. The economy is truly global and people are going where they are getting best value on their dollar. This is something north american companies seem to be really stuck on. Like it or not, people are looking for the best products and the best deals on those products and with enough time and effort, they are out there.
I would bet there are some retailers who are killing it right now....and I bet they are selling to triathletes....online....AND doing it correctly.
Mark

I think you make some good points on PB vs local shops. I'd like to support local shops but they just don't have what I want. They say "I can order that for you" well I can order it too, have it quicker and for a better price. In addition to that they close early during the week and are closed on sundays. My GF and I spent $250 at PB last sunday cuz they made sure I knew they had additional discounts on their sale....and they were open....on sunday.

jaretj

In June Dan solicited the RDs on his calendar to fill out a survey of how participation is now versus years prior. He promised to share the results, even teased us in a second solicitation that the early results were "intriguing". More than two months later and the results still have not been shared with those of us who filled out his survey, but Dan does have hard data on this.

I noticed that Trisports has an opening for a buyer at the Tuscon store.

https://www.linkedin.com/...2CVSRPcmpt%3Aprimary

I'd take this as a good sign.

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Punching cockroaches from day 1.

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http://www.tri-junkie.com/

Not necessarily....the previous position holder may have "seen the writing in the wall" and left and this could just be replacing a vacate position.

Not saying that is what is going on here, but just because there is an open position does not mean that things have necessarily improved. (But it could be, as well).

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I had thought of that, but since buyers are usually the people who are spending the money, in tough times, they generally aren't back filled. Hard to say at this point.

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Punching cockroaches from day 1.

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http://www.tri-junkie.com/

I agree that the sport has become too costly to remain competitive and alluring to newbies at the same time. When you show up at a big race and nearly everybody is on a bike that looks like it was made by NASA and wearing skinsuits that aren't even legal in the Olympics, it just seems too ridiculous to bother competing in. What is unfortunate is that a lot of this gear was accumulated over a long period of time, but it appears all at once in front of the newbie. Ironically, the aero/expensive stuff that is most visible doesn't offer anywhere the speed of body position, technique, or training, but such is life.

It would be cool to do a race where round tube road bikes with standard wheels are mandated, along with no aero or expensive gadgets. If it wasn't around at the first triathlons, you can't use it. What would the list of other "Retrogrouch Tri" prohibited items include? Aerohelmets, aero bottles, GPS, HR monitors, swimskins?

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

It would be cool to do a race where round tube road bikes with standard wheels are mandated, along with no aero or expensive gadgets. If it wasn't around at the first triathlons, you can't use it. What would the list of other "Retrogrouch Tri" prohibited items include? Aerohelmets, aero bottles, GPS, HR monitors, swimskins?

I was part of a consultative process back earlier this year, about a possible event that has echos of this. I can't give away more details, than that as it's still under wraps, but what it was attemping to do was strip swim/bike/run down to it's most essential and basic elements. The marketing people and some of the bigger brands potentially involved in this project loved it. However, we came to the conclusion, ironically, that despite the fact that this would be a triathlon, swim/bike/run, few modern triathletes would actually be interested in it - which presented a few challenges. However, it would open up swim/bike/run, to a potentially much bigger and wider audience . . which is ultimately what will be helpful to everyone!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Warm water, no swim skins, bikes are provided (like CitiBike Bikes), no watches. Would be a riot to watch or race.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

That race would be awesome. Years ago I played Rugby and we used to play in a 7 a side tournament every summer. For those unfamiliar it is a shortened version of regular rugby as far ashow long the game takes. Regular rugby has 15 a side and therefore much faster so the seven aside version is not really a big man's but a speed game ( it debuts in the next summer olympics).

Anyhow my point was that the tournament we played was a fun one put on by the big guys (props & hookers). Anyone who wasn't a prop or hooker had to wear rubber boots! Basically slow the fast guys down. We had a blast.

out of context quote of the year.

I have been racing since '95 and agree some of the stuff is out of hand in the tri world. I remember when sprint or oly races were around $40-$50 and you would get all kinds of swag. Now I see Oly races for $200 and wonder what the heck am I getting for $200?? I understand permits, closing roads, and off-duty police officers cost money, but $200 for an Oly race that isn't even a qualifier for ANYTHING?? Seems a little ridiculous and intimidating for a newbie.

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Mandy

I think a problem with this is you CAN get aero stuff for so cheap now that its perfectly likely someone may have to have another bike to be able to race that type of race. I could easily build an S1 or S2 for under 1500.