now schedule your episode of oprah to admit to lying

As much as I appreciate your transparency, no one cares my friend. I spent 6 years on the US Olympic Team (albeit not cycling, not triathlon) and I never doped or took PED's... not even coffee! I was tested (both blood and urine) at least once a month, usually more, from 17-25 years of age. My wife is currently an elite runner and is tested randomly, she is also clean.

But again, the problem with the world is that I don't think anyone cares except the people doing the testing. As soon as I jump into the pool today or go on my next group ride I will be lumped in with dirty athletes because those are the only one's you here about. Lance's situation just happens to be more sensationalized.

I got a call last night from an old team-mate of mine who is trying to become a pro cyclist and during the glory years really looked up to Lance. Recently he came to the realization of the doping, but last night really crushed him. There's no returning to grace from that.

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

ok, this, this is it. this is what we need to bring to the "process" thread as well as to the USAT and the WTC.

it isn't the world's problem. the world is fine. if the world doesn't care about our sports then its because we haven't gotten them interested in caring. our sales pitch isn't good. we should work on that.

Well then, please excuse me for being a positive role-model for aspiring athletes.

I read your book, good read. I think I saw you riding up big cottonwood a few years ago, I thought I looked goofy on my single speed mt bike but you were on a TT bike for some reason so that made me feel a little better. Keep up the good work with everything else your doing.

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'STICK EM UP PUNK ITS THE FUN LOVING CRIMINAL'

Thanks Saul for your contribution to sport, and doing it without having to cross the line into doping!

I haven't either. Then again, my results don't exactly raise anyone's suspicions.

Seriously though. Keep up the good work. Positive-role models are important. One of my son's is a really good athlete and naturally we tend towards endurance sports in our family. I was a swimmer and now triathlete. My wife is a runner. I can see a future for him where he could possibly be put into that situation. Consequently, this is something that I talk to him about. We watched the interview last night together stopping and starting it several times to talk about different parts of it.

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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007

No one is judging you dude... relax. All I'm saying is that the problem here isn't with you or me or any other clean athlete and therefore it shouldn't be our job(s) to speak-up and save our respective sports. I'm had my ass handed to me (both on the race course and in training) too many times to rationalize my existence to someone who is considering cheating.

The world at large will only see us in the respect of the people who make the news. The Lance Armstrong's, the Floyd Landis', Marion Jones, Ben Johnson, Bonds, Canseco.... the list goes on. I have my reasons for going pro and I'm sure you do to, however the general public doesn't understand those reasons and only sees pro-athlete after pro-athlete doing drugs and performance enhancers... ie: cheating to gain public support. More people have now heard of Hamilton and Landis than Jordan Rapp or Chris Lieto or Mirinda Carfree, right? It's because athletes like Rapp and Lieto and Carfree are clean and therefore don't make the news. Standing up and announcing that, loud and proud, as you suggested in your original post will not make any difference.

As a side note, the punishments for doping are futile and because of this, no one cares. Lance will make more money from this and the following book deal that will be made into a Lifetime movie than if he raced tri's for another 10 years. That's what people see, that's what people believe. They don't care about athletes like you and me.

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

You do know who Saul Raisin is and his story? I do think him making this statement does make a difference. It gives kids hope that they can race in the protour racing clean. Keep in mind the era that Saul raced at Credit Agricole. Sadly for us, we never saw him reach his full potential, but thankfully for us, and his family, he is still with us.

Of course I do... I'm insulted you had to ask the question. His book is on my shelf along with all the others. However, with all due respect to Saul and you, I too have had my share of life-changing issues and have been told by someone else that I'm done. Just because it wasn't in a world that you know doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Two 'rounds of chemo, radiation and multiple surgeries... followed by a crash that resulted in a ruptured spinal column and a 6" Ti rod in my back should at least garner the same level of respect as any other injured athlete.

Again, I'm not going to justify my existence to anyone, especially on a computer. All I'm saying is we ought to spend our energy solving he problem not proselytizing about it.

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

Guys like Saul have the right to be the most pissed off about Lance and doping in their sports. There is no Saulstrong, private jets, Olson twins, etc. for guys like Saul because of the decisions he and others made to race clean. Saul was on a trajectory to be one of the top guys in cycling based upon his pure, natural abilities and good genes. He raced against Lance and Postal and lost actual money everytime he finished behind them. People can complain about being duped by Lance, buying into the "miracle" storyline along with the yellow bracelet and Lance bios, but guys like Saul and countless others no one has ever heard of were the ones that were actually damaged - actual lost earnings, loss of future earnings, etc. I did not watch all of the Lance interview, but the one question that I doubt he would answer honestly is whether, if he could do it all over, would he do it again. He may be humbled now, he may be disliked, he may be about to right a couple of checks and give some of his fortune away, but none of that erases the fact that he got to experience being a pro cyclists, wearing the yellow jersey, kissing the podium girls, banging the Olson twins and Cheryl Crow, and will still be very wealthy when this is all over. That is a problem that is unlikely ever to be solved and will continue to disenfranchise guys like Saul that make the conscious choice to take the hard road.

I tend to agree with saul here. Professional cyclists could do their sport a lot of good by being honest and outspoken about doping in their sport.

Triathletes are doing it a bit, a few of them, which is 100% more than pro cyclists, and it is wonderful to see.

There is definitely a subset of cycling fans who will become YOUR fan if you happily say "fuck those doping jerkoffs" when asked in the press.

Standing up and announcing it loud and proud may just make a difference, the silence in cycling is extremely frustrating to many fans.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

How do you think any change happens in the world? The people who are impacted most speak out. Whether that's civil rights or better working conditions - you have to make your voice heard. You are right - nobody seems to care. Part of the reason is that not enough pro athletes are vocal about why they think that a clean sport is important. Fans think pro's don't care - so fans don't care.

You made the right choice. Nothing wrong with being vocal about it either.

I didn't know you were a forum member. I don't want to hijack necessarily, but I'm incredibly curious about your time at CA.

I think we should all head over too (ie: read) the new "moral outrage" thread by LuketheDrifter. He makes very succinct points, although I don't agree with allowing Armstrong to race again, but that's another discussion.

Plus I have to get back to work!?!

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

If you do not have one and would like it. You can always buy a signed copy of my book from me here: http://www.tourdelife.org
A portion of all sells go towards a good cause.

Thank you!

Saul

I have a copy, not signed... but maybe someday you'll allow me the honor of riding with you (and then sign my copy)!!!

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

Quote:

I tend to agree with saul here. Professional cyclists could do their sport a lot of good by being honest and outspoken about doping in their sport.

Triathletes are doing it a bit, a few of them, which is 100% more than pro cyclists, and it is wonderful to see.

There is definitely a subset of cycling fans who will become YOUR fan if you happily say "fuck those doping jerkoffs" when asked in the press.

Standing up and announcing it loud and proud may just make a difference, the silence in cycling is extremely frustrating to many fans.

This is a great point, and its one that I made about Baseball a few years back. It appears that the biggest problem with doping in cycling is that not many were really speaking up about it, and seemingly not enough was done. I think Floyd Landis was the first high profile bust (by high profile, I mean he finished 1st in the tour). I much time did he try to proclaim innocence before deciding to just give up and out everyone?

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

Saul,

If you feel you can answer this. In your experience, how much pressure there was to do it? Does the pressure changes if you are racing in Europe (irrespective of which race) versus USA?

Peace out

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______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

Of course the casual fan lumps cheats with non-cheats, duh!
How can anyone be trusted?
Pro Cyclists need to take back their sport, they need to be vocal and call out cheats.
TDF organizers need to structure their race to allow non-dopers a chance.
UCI needs to disband or at least have independent auditors scrutinize them.
Everyone dopes, you can't win without dope etc etc is weak.
Mistakes are only bad if nothing is gleaned from them, this is a rare opportunity that lies solely in the hands of athletes.

Where do you live? Let me know if you're ever in Georgia. Love to ride anytime.

Email me your number, happy to discus CA with you.

saul@raisnhope.org

There was no pressure, everyone suspects what teams are doing it and which ones are not. That is why I signed with a French professional team; I did not want to put myself in a position where I would be potentially pressured into doing something. I can tell you now without a doubt that every cyclist with a French professional racing license is a clean cyclist; no questions asked!

In the northeast... but if I'm ever in your neighborhood I'll take you up on that!

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

Saul you are a inspiration :0)

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

You wrote: But again, the problem with the world is that I don't think anyone cares except the people doing the testing.

I do not agree. Growing up in sport I have never been around people talking about doping in other terms than just negative. But then I did not grow up or started my competitive career I the USA. I am shocked about the casual relationship many have to PED. When I hear people arguing that using testosterone is not doping, I get mad.

Luckily more and more countries are starting to fight doping, but a lot of work has to be done. The biggest threat to anti doping work is age groupers starting to justify cheating. That is why targeting testing of all suspicious athletes is the way to go. Having a separation between pros and AGs makes no sense, sport is sport.

You have the right to be cynical, but luckily you will help in the fight against doping by speaking up.

Actually, I think we agree more than you realize. I agree about the surprising relationship many have with PED's and the testosterone thing is sickening to me for various reasons. And I have said many times before on other threads that I fully support testing at all levels. My point about people not caring was a response to Saul's attempt to educate the public (my phrase, not his) that many if not most cyclists are clean.

While it is true that other riders care, and most up-and-coming athletes care about who is clean... the disengaged, ignorant, common-man doesn't care. They only see what's posted online or aired on TV or printed in articles... they do not see, nor do some care to see Saul's story or Dev's or Jack's or yours. All they know is that more and more athletes are doing illegal drugs, PED's, and cheating, and therefore they are basically taught that this is the norm and that we all do it.

Do you think all those dumb-asses who we talk about harassing cyclists and runners out on the road, or people who laugh at us because we hurt all the time and will probably die younger because of it, care that we are clean? I believe that no matter how many Sauls, Jordans, or Halvards there are the general public will only believe what they see on TV... and all they see on TV is Lance and how corrupt cycling is.

I've never believed I am cynical (perhaps so) but I believe the general public definitely is... perhaps by nature, perhaps by nurture... who knows.


edit: spelling

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-Eric
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"The Fit Shall Inherit the Earth" -Endurance Conspiracy

Thanks Saul for your kind response. Would not have thought there was such certainty about the French. I know the prosecution there is tough but also the history is long. Good insight

What are you up to this days? Just tri?

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______________________________________
"Bros b4 Hos, man" House MD

Team Aquaphor 06-08

I am engaged to get married, in school trying to graduate, and also looking for a job.

Saul- you are an inspiration. Thank you for posting.

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http://www.mountainmettle.com

Well then don't waste this opportunity. What are you graduating with, what do you want to do, and where do you want end up? Some people can't say no to nice weather.

It continues to surprise me how many people come across these threads.

Saul, I am in your area. You are always welcome to lead our group and let us draft you (if we can keep up). :-)
80 mile route tomorrow from the Cartersville brewery to Chatsworth. Rolling out at 8 am :-)

Thanks for sharing Saul.

Saul,
Do you think this was in part because you were on a French team? Would you be willing to comment on the larger culture within the peloton? That would be really fascinating given all the stuff flying around about how everyone was doped in the LA years.

Saul,

Yours is an inspirational story...I would welcome the opportunity to ride w/ you if you venture up here to Asheville.

As to the topic at hand, a troublesome point is that a negative is impossible to prove...While I personally have no doubts about the veracity of claims made by clean riders such as Saul and Scott Mercier...there is simply no way to verify them...

In 1996, I was sitting on a friend's couch in CA during the buildup to Wildflower...I was offered the chance to get on "a program" that would "take me to the next level"...it was never specifically outlined, just understood what it was...I'd love to say I indignantly laughed and stormed out...the reality was, it was flattering to have someone think I was fast enough to warrant a "program"...ultimately, I never followed through with the offer for a number of reasons...one of them being a sense of right and wrong...but, I can certainly see how the bright lights can be mesmerizing. At least one my compatriots from that life found himself banned at one point...

I can relate to Duck, as I spent most of my "pro" career as pack filler and I have often wondered how good I could've been and how many guys that were blowing my doors were juiced...my suspicion has always been not many, as there were many, many faster athletes, doping was still early and there really wasn't enough money in Tri to support a deep doping culture...but, it was still there at some level...and, I do take some small pride that I passed my own moral test.

Saul...continue to be an outspoken role model...young cyclists could do much worse than to emulate you.

I signed with Credit Agricole because of their strict testing policies.
Every rider on our team had to have a French racing licence and we also
had to keep an biological passport. I would give upwards of 15 blood test
a year in and out of competition. Every test they would simply look for changes in
blood chemistry not only for drugs but to make sure we were healthy too. The way
the French test their riders it is impossible to beat. That's why good guys like myself
and Thor Hushoved signed for CA. We did not want pressure from other teams. Everyone
in "the system" knows which teams do and do not. We wanted to stay as far away as possible
from the ones that do.

You're an inspiration and a breathe of fresh air in this time of need.

Thanks for posting this. Very interesting indeed. Extremely interesting, in fact.

RP

Thanks Saul. I appreciate the insight. Were there other teams you considered, for similar reasons?
I find myself (once again) doing a major re-evaluation of history, as I suspect many others are.

I considered other French teams and teams that did not have several accused dopers on them and that includes the directors.

Saul, good on you but I think you should focus on what you did or did not do and not associate too much with the team you were riding for.

I could without thinking for a second throw 10 rider/DS names at you that have been implicated with drug abuse during GAN/CA times.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

Your You're absolutely right. I just do not want everyone to think that top-level pro cyclist dope, because they don't. I believe that now that less than 10 guys actually do it. It will stop when everyone begins to point fingers. Just about everyone suspects who is cheating. They do not know how they cheat but suspects suspect something. The problem is that no one does anything about it.

No one is not correct but sure not enough are doing something. Have you spoken to USADA in which way you could help? I'm happy to put you in touch with them if needed.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

I wish everybody would race clean. Maybe one day the tests will be ahead of the cheaters. Congrats on not being weak and bowing to pressure of the tours.

Just curious if you took any vitamins or supplements either orally or via injections? I was just wondering if pro cyclists take B12, iron shots, etc....

I have never spoke with them. Do you think that they would even listen to me? I also do not think that they would spend the time or money that is needed to actually clean up the sport. I am happy to talk with them, yes please put them in touch with me.

My email is saul@raisinhope.org

I did take injectable vitamin B12 and an injectable multivitamin including magnesium and calcium. In France, if a Doctor writes you a prescription for the injectable vitamins they free with the French Social Security.

 French cyclist former World Champion Bauge

http://www.mirror.co.uk/...gregory-bauge-736791

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http://www.TomMoschettoFitness.com
Cycling Coach/Trainer/Motorpacing/Computrainer Rental

He is not a professional cyclist, and he must be an idiot.

Not that it matters, but he is a french Pro track cyclist (http://en.wikipedia.org/...C3%A9gory_Baug%C3%A9) and apparently not too bright.

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http://www.TomMoschettoFitness.com
Cycling Coach/Trainer/Motorpacing/Computrainer Rental

Well, they took time to speak with me on several occasions. I think education is a big part of antidoping and personally I would think you'd be someone that could be a great ambassador.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

So what's your point? He got caught did he not? Looks like their system works. I would rather see him get caught than see him win seven Olympics dirty.

Thank you! I would be more than honored to talk with them. Please let me know if you can help set something up.

I emailed her, cc you. Please follow up with her in a week if you don't hear back.

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CAMPAGNOLO GRAN FONDO NEW YORK

His suspension was backdated so that although he lost his 2011 titles, he was still able to compete in London and most of 2012 ...in other words, the suspension was meaningless..My point is that even though the system may have caught the rider, it seems as if the French Cycling Federation (& UCI) were complicit with the situation, and gave Bauge more of a symbolic penalty, than an actual penalty. http://www.trackcyclingnews.com/baugebanned.html

In my opinion, penalties for doping violations need to be severe, otherwise they will not deter cheating.

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http://www.TomMoschettoFitness.com
Cycling Coach/Trainer/Motorpacing/Computrainer Rental

I will do, let me know if you ever want a motivational speaker for the Gran Fondo New York.

I saw your email and now cannot find it. Could you please forward it to me again?

Thank you!

How's recovery coming along Saul?

Brad

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3SIXTY5cycling.com

It is a long hard road but I'm going to make it! I am newly engaged to the love of my life, nothing could be better! Nothing but blue skies ahead!

Awesome. I've been following your story. It's great to hear that things are going well. My little brother is recovering from a stroke (at 40 yrs old). A brain injury is a crazy thing to deal with.

Congrats on your engagement. Now you've got real trouble!!! ;)

Brad

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3SIXTY5cycling.com

Glad to hear! Not to long ago I was fortunate enough to hear you speak at an event.....Awesome!!

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http://www.TomMoschettoFitness.com
Cycling Coach/Trainer/Motorpacing/Computrainer Rental

I haven't either. Then again, my results don't exactly raise anyone's suspicions

You might think that's the case, but all this talk of PED's and the stark reality that getting to even a modest level of success in an endurance sport takes a lot of work and years and years of time(assuming clean). I've even had sly remarks made of me, as to how I can, at 50+ years just jump into any 100k group ride and hang in there. Reason: years and years of hard work and a base-line aerobic capacity from that, allows me to do that sort of thing. But many super keen, new-comers are incredulous, it seems. They are frustrated that they can't do these things after a year or two.

Now the irony, is that, I am guessing that there are guys that I ride with, and race with might very well be on something. I can't say for sure, but all this talk and all this exposure of PED use has made everyone suspicious of everyone else!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Doping derives from the old generation of cyclist and directors that think it is the only way.
Doping is really an "old mentality".

"Old mentality..."

I certainly hope so.

Saul, thanks for jumping into the shark tank. Loud and proud defuses the omertà.

Watched a high school freshman put out a steady 6+ watts/kg during a CompuTrainer TT today. Astounded at his physical giftedness, but saddened that in the current news cycle, people will wonder. One onlooker even commented that whose were "Lance numbers".

Keep sounding the clean call, so we can celebrate natural talent, and eventually, do so without having that talent questioned.

Congrats on the engagement!