This sort of thing is happening so much now that it is just normal,which is bloody sad.....



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Are you kidding me?

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

Apparently they moved the start time up AND shortened this race to a 1 mi swim, 30 mi bike, 10k run...sucks you bought a $300 Oly but I guess they have liability concerns. PR or the ER?!?!

Surely there has to be a law in the US for the consumer which states something like if you don't get a product/service you paid for you can get a refund.....regardless of what the refund policy is of the company? It would be interesting to have someone try this out in court. Any of the lawyers on ST feel creative?

What time are pros going now? I'm about to head up from Cincinnati

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

WTC would never do it, but they should offer partial refunds! $225-$300 for an olympic distance race is retarded

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M.S. x 2; CSCS; ATC/LAT, Functional Movement Specialist, USA Track and Field Level 1

Well safety first..I get that! It's disappointing, but so is seeing everyone in the hospital/medical tent. It's THE most expense Olympic race I have ever done in my life..sighhhh I'm still going to have fun and be grateful I can still do these things.

I'm pissed and I'm not even racing!!! If they downgrade this.... then why wouldn't they downgrade a full IM (IM Lou)..

This is Ironman.. This isn't family picnic time... lets go WTC.. very upsetting!

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COROS Sports Science

Buffalo Springs was over 100 and everyone was fine there. Wtf?

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

so you got to wake up extra early and race an Olympic. bummer man!

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SmartBikeTrainers.com || YouTube || My Twitter

+1

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M.S. x 2; CSCS; ATC/LAT, Functional Movement Specialist, USA Track and Field Level 1

Talk about the further wussification of Triathletes. Why can't they just adjust their pace to account for the conditions?

thoughts? Athletes in race should form a group/union that is going to do the full event.. so what if they go off course and get DQ'd... they signed up for the 70.3 and trained all year for it (in some cases).. Race through the tape and come in as a pack... I dunno.

I thought the Ironman was this thought of being better than average and reaching for your limits.. maybe I was wrong.

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COROS Sports Science

Boo!

(Not to you but to the decision to bring Muncie down to the pansy level of sport)

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Technically they do do that for IM Lou. They just don't stock enough fluids at the tail of the bike, so the slower folks drop on their own, hence they shorten the race without having to announce it.

I can be mixed. There is something to be said for HTFU, but at the same time I think safety should be a large factor.

By the same degree, for people who are pissed off, the only reason you CAN race is the fact that the towns permit the races and the USAT or other org supplies the insurance... So if 5 people drop dead on the course and their are insurance payouts, it does make it harder for other races to go on, as well as gives the impression to the towns that we ride, bike, or swim through that what we do is "dangerous"

Littering is probably the number one reason events are cancelled / not renewed by towns.

Traffic and vocal citizens over such is likely number two.

Only reason we can "race" and have roads held for us, etc... is because there is insurance.

Now I would prefer to see more of a "conditions will be more extreme, if you have concerns with this affecting your ability, we will defer your entry"

Wow. I'm not competing, but I am the bike sag volunteer. Very disappointing. Was looking forward to attending my first Ironman event....


Brandan

WTF, another example of pandering to the lowest common denominator? Unless the temps are going to reach the 120s. Organizers need to bring enough fluids but as others have posted, pacing does playa role in any event over a couple of hours (and in shorter ones).

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

I did Muncie a couple of times before it was purchased by WTC in which the conditions were similar to what is expected tomorrow. I suffered and dropped out once 7 miles into the run, but I learned how to deal with the heat. I have a 50something cousin who grew up in Indianapolis who signed up for Muncie. It is her first triathlon. She did her first marathon (NYC) last fall in just under 5 hours. She traveled from South Carolina for the race. It will be interesting to find out her reaction to the news. For her safety and possible longevity as a triathlete, I'm glad they shortened the race and her first tri will be an Oly. I just hope I don't see her claiming next week that she just finished an Ironman. :)

I would never wear the shirt if I didn't do the full race.

I hope they don't do this to steelhead. I want to race at least one 70.3 this year.

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It shouldn't be difficult to go over the best ways to race in heat like that at the athlete meeting. Slow down. Period. Problem solved. Is there really a huge difference between 103 and 95? I don't think so.

That is so cute going to an Oly race. Do you still get to have the Mdot for the window on the drive back? It is hot...it is Muncie...Everyone has same conditions. That's what makes the sport so much fun.

Some of us race for more than a t shirt.

I'm racing tomorrow and while disappointing, there's nothing that can be done about it. Race plan changes and you move on. No sense in spending mindless energy on an issue that you have no control over.

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"One Line Robert"

Although I feel sort of bad in saying it, I think that is really what is going on here. I would strongly suspect that the race is not being shortened to account for the safety of those who are actually prepared for the race, but rather for the 8 hour finisher crowd that are probably already taxing their abilities as it is. With conditions such as this, I could definitely see a safety risk for the BOP.

However, the solution for this should be enforcement of cutoffs, not shortening the entire race to an Oly so that no one gets their precious feelings hurt.

Well said. Sums it up pretty well. For those that need to check 70.3 off their bucket-list, this is earth-shattering. For those competing against the field, it's an opportunity to adapt and move forward. For both those groups, though, paying $300 for an Oly distance race definitely sucks. I've got Racine on the docket next weekend, and I'm hoping the temps stay down so they keep that race at its intended distance, otherwise I'll be pissed off to have paid that kind of money.

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

breaking News, all triathlon races, have been cancel for 2012, it is to hot people!! stay indoors, eat Doritos and drink beer, get fat, Obamacare will take care of you

for me, the difference between 80* and 105* doesn't exist. it's really freaking hot and i struggle pretty bad.

i would still rather do a half/full distance with the frequency of aid stations in those events vs. oly events being more.

Tim

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Tim

Keep in mind the temp tomorrow is supposed to be 106. Muncie has zero shade on the run and plenty of rolling hills. As a Race Director myself, I think it was a good call. Maybe they should offer a discount for next years race. Other than that I would have done the same.

I absolutely agree. Especially when there was a Muncie thread a few days back that was in the spirit of "10 things to prepare for Munice," that listed "drink gallons of water the day before the event," as critical. Talk about setting yourself up for a trip the medical tent. I think the poster hit this spot-on. The safety risk is for the person that is unprepared...and flushing their system of electrolytes the day before a hot race...

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*********************************************
Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

I'm a bit pissed about this. But again, a race is a race, no matter the distance. I hope WTC does right by offering a discount for next year or something equivalent. But probably not.

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"One Line Robert"

so will they cancel the IM canada, because the water is to cold?

Well, the NOLA 70.3 folks did offer discounted race entries for next year at $150 for the cancelled swim turning it into a duathlon (and possibly also due to the changed up run course).

Now...are the conditions in Muncie that much different than they have been in Lubbock for Buffalo Springs in the past? I did a lovely 8 hour slogfest at Lubbock a few weeks ago (thank you, heat)...and was hot and uncomfortable as I melted down, but never felt like I put myself in danger. Though I do suppose a person doing their first half IM may not know where their limits are or when to pull the plug. If aid stations are well stocked and there is plentiful ice, people can get through the event.

Sorry for all you signed up. That would blow, esp if it was your big race of the year. I would like to do Muncie one year...

+2

This is infuriating. Someone above talked about getting your money back for services not rendered. You want to see someone do that; shorten Vineman 70.3 or IMoo. You'll see it happen Monday morning. We are paying BEYOND what is reasonable to accommodate these "extreme" conditions. If Mary Beth Slowpants is scared of the heat, don't fucking race. I'm sorry TNT didn't tell you it's actually really fucking hard and you should HTFU. If you can't do that, go walk a marathon and talk about how big of an accomplishment 7 hours is. But don't bring real athletes down with you.


I say everyone racing this event that wants to do the actual 70.3.. just do it. Fuck your timing chip. Start with everyone else and run the actual course (if you know where it's supposed to go).


If you can't tell; I'm really mad.

FYI, this Sunday there is a 1/2 in Oliver, BC, Canada. The bike course is one of the tougher ones around, it is part of the IMC course, up Richters, over most of the bitches and then back, up the rear, steeper side of Richters. The run is relatively flat though. Projected temperature, without humidity is 37C, 98.6F while Muncie is projecting 27C, 81F. BUT, add in humidity (or I guess in weather speak, "feels like"), and Oliver is 40C, 104F while Muncie is 39C, 102F. Add to that some area of Canada haven't seen temperatures above the 70s this year so for people training in those areas it'll be a hot one.

Anyway, Oliver will be hotter regardless of how you measure it and they've never cut the distance that I know of. Muncie is "cooler" (well, not really that much difference) but they cut the distance.

Good luck to all in each of the races and stay hydrated!

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BC Don
Pain is temporary, not giving it your all lasts all Winter.

I get what you're saying but some people (i.e. Jordan Rapp) don't perform as well in Olympic or even 70.3 as compared to a full.

It would be super easy to shorten IMLOU too. Only one loop (and possibly no out and back) of the bike, and a one lap run. Sucks if that happens. I usually agree with WTCs weather calls, but this one is just BS. They really should at least refund the difference between a 5150 race and a 70.3 race.

Hell yes!

A friend of mine is there and made a great point... they knew about this weather 4 days ago but they wanted to wait until everyone got into town, booked their hotels and have to stay. Crooked if you ask me.

This would never happen in Abu Dhabi!!


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I didn't realize that the majority of alaskan's were on the start list.

Shit, most midwesterners have had two+ weeks to acclimatize.


I dedicate my 75 minute run in a Heat Index of 102 this afternoon to those poor victims of lawyers in Muncie. #solidarity

Best ever...

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-Stephen in Arkansas

Oh so now they should shorten tri's everywhere where it may be hot/humid.....

Thank you good sir, but the WTC is asking me to ask you to please not do so. It could be dangerous, you could get hot.

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(insert inspirational/witty/comical signature here)

I will agree with you about the shade (grueling out on the run), and they can/should look into that detail going into the future (devise a new run course for next year). Now that they know it will be hot in July they should plan the race accordingly. Discount for next year equals yes. I must, however, chime in and agree with others in saying people knew what they were getting themselves into when they signed themselves up. Yes there are precendents for heat causing major DNF rates but I think that there should be something in writing for summer races, at least, that gives a cut off and an alternative. That would at least cut down on the surprise aspect of is all.

P.S. Great race up in Terre Haute this year! Always a blast to come back to the Haute.

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So scared of breaking it that you won't let it bend.

They had a post about this on Facebook and were getting killed about the decision. The post is now gone.

Good sound approach. Unfortunately learning how to deal with the heat probably requires a situation (or a few) in which we were fortunate to recover without any serious problems. Not everyone will be so lucky. Adjusting pace and fluid intake is a process that takes time as is widely recognized on this forum. A few weeks or months might not be enough. I got kicked in the ass by heat just a few weeks ago and have been doing races for over a decade. I do try to avoid longer races in the heat, but if you want to race in the midwest without breaking the bank its not the easiest thing in to do.

since there is two Muncie treads going I will post this here too

This is a continuation of the Wussification of America. This is a sport that main season happens in the middle of the summer, heat should be expected and if trained correctly should not be a problem. The reason I even got involved in this sport as a ex-college football player who never took a swim lesson before, hadn't ridden a bike since I was a kid and running was always my punishment in sport was because it was a true test and a real challenge. If everyone finished it wouldn't be special and I would not have been interested. I signed up for IMNY/NJ paid my $1000 or so bucks to pay for the right to attempt the distance and now with this 70.3 getting moved down to an olympic I have to worry about the race I signed up for well over a year in advance and prepared for being changed to some other distance due to it being friggin August when it is hot. I am just not ok with this. I train in the middle of the day all summer for a reason. When I do trainer work and it gets under a 100 degrees in my garage I close the door half way. WTC don't take peoples dreams, hardwork, sweat, tears and time away from their families and ruin it for them.

Negligence is BS, they have all those darn waivers for this reason. 1000's of racers have DNF'd before. So if it was a full would the concession be cutting it to a half or now do we have to see fulls getting cut to olympics. Adults can choose to participate and should be properly advised about risks by the WTC staff.

These are the questions I now have: What protocol are they following regarding heat? what are the guidelines now? who is advising? where are they collecting their weather information?.... I am a certified athletic trainer. If I was analyzing the event the heat index based on literature would not allow for any outdoor activity. Not having the data to support this but I would guess that a bulk of these events have happened before with heat indexes that would limit exposure time to not much more then even a sprint distance if that. And we sure know that KONA has been worse with plenty of freebie celeb and lottery slots of non-qualifying participants. Come up with another solution... have special heat training sessions at the expo....do weigh ins at transitions...find a way to make it safer without altering the race... extend cut offs, more aid stations, something else

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Dynamic Athlete ProgrammingVIP Endurance Racing | Like us on Facebook Get Your Training Plan Here

Everyone should just go to the Muncie Facebook page and repost their comment on the Muncie "wall". Funny how companies LOVE facebook when it is good plublicity, but things seem do disappear when it isn't good plublicity.

Why is it that that the run is never cancelled? Why cancel the swim at all? I say they double the swim and make the bike and swim equal 70.3.
Screw the fast runners for once! :) (pink font).

Unfortunately this is the new trend. As LC triathlon becomes more and more popular the average fitness level becomes lower.

RD's are more concerned about safety and getting sued now then ever. I bet vs 15 years ago the medium HIM time is 30min slower.

At least WTC should offer a discount towards another wtc event in the next year.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

There must have been an overstock of IronMan 32.1 bumper stickers they needed to unload...

First of all this was not an Ironman, it was a 70.3 (half ironman) and there's a huge difference. I can totally understand the frustration of the participants but I also would like to hear the comments after racing the shortened distance in 100 degree heat. You might be glad they shortened it.
Also this has nothing to do with the wussification of triathlon etc...If you think finishing a half iron distance race in 9 hours cut off time is hard you must be either over a certain age or do not have any clue about training. Wake up it was already watered down. This decision is for the safety of the athletes who race the distance not merely trying to finish it. I don't like the WTC and the way they commercialized the whole iron distance racing but IMHO this is the right decision specially for the safety of the people who have no clue about how heat affects their body and how unhealthy it can be. However because of the shortened distance they should offer refunds to people who does not want to race.

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I see obsessed people.

You must be looking at Sundays weather?? Muncie is not supposed to be 81 tmrw...

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Colorado Triathlon Company, CO2UT 2021, Crooked Gravel 2022, Steamboat Gravel 2022

http://ironmanmuncie.com/...-Alert-Statement.pdf


link to official statement:

Quote:

We would also like to extend a $125 discount to each IRONMAN 70.3 Muncie athlete for one of
the following races:
o IRONMAN 70.3 Steelhead – Aug. 19, 2012
o IRONMAN 70.3 Timberman – Aug. 19, 2012
o IRONMAN 70.3 Branson – Sept. 23, 2012
o IRONMAN 70.3 Austin – Oct. 28, 2012

Love how they pick all the races that don't sell out.

They have a new post up now. Pointing out that it's going to be hot. ;-)

Sweet! I'd love to send WTC more money!

If kona gets too hot this year then they'll have to drop it down to a half ironman distance but race for the full Ironman World Champion ship title!! Cool......

I just hope they don't get surprised by the weather and then mid race decide to change the distance from full to half ironman distances as I think a few athletes might be pissed!!! GO WTC..........

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"I swim because that's how I get to ride my bike."

Does Muncie have enough ER's to handle all of the heat exhaustion cases, not just at the race, but in the city as well? They made the right call.

Should they have offered races that already sold out? Most of them are crowded enough as it is.

Do you guys have any idea how hot Kona gets in October and how hot it'll be in Muncie and difference in between? On a side note are you comparing the qualified athletes in Kona to participants in Muncie???

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I see obsessed people.

1) I think the credit is bogus... they should offer refunds to those who don't want to do an Olympic
2) If they are going to do the credit; it should apply to ALL WTC EVENTS (excluding Kona and Vegas obviously).
3) To the people who think they are doing the best they can... FUCK THAT. I can come up with 100 different options for the athletes who don't want to compete but WTC is not going to even darken that door because they fear of losing money... which they wouldn't.

I'm sitting in my $49/night room in Muncie thinking about this decision.

I was looking forward to the heat as an extra way to challenge myself. I cheaped out in every way on this race. 2 night@ $49 plus fees. Super early registration for $199. Afew tanks of gas for $200+. A meal out with friends. All in all I still paid $600 to get FUCKED!

Local races from now on.

You are the prime example to why this is unacceptable. I feel so bad for you. I can't say that enough.

All I can say is seek out the RD. Talk to as many official WTC employees as possible and state your case. Email WTC. Don't just let this happen and race.... that is the worst thing all of the athletes can do. If you race, you're allowing this to happen. I get the take something over nothing for your money but then nothing will change. This will happen more and more and you'll stop competing. You'll lose the love for the sport and triathlon will become as tainted as Rock 'N Roll Marathons.

Stand up and do something. Don't just get run over.

You're either the machine or working for it.

I feel as if all this bitching is evidence of the attitudes that a lot in this sport carry. The "why me" type bitching. Never considering anyone else possibly involved. How about the 100s who have to volunteer, the possibility that local hospitals might not have enough support, the on site support not being sufficient. Move past the idea that people show up under prepared. It happens and will continue to happen. These races aren't just for "you". I'm racing tomorrow and while I'm a little pissed I paid that much for a shorter race, I still get to race. And racing is racing. All those bucket listers have their panties in a bunch because THEY don't get to have the race they feel they deserve but fail to even try to comprehend why a decision like this was made. If someone were to die because the appropriate care wasn't available can you imagine the outrage? And rightfully so. Lawsuits would ensue. And what if it was a pro or other highly trained highly prepared athlete?

People need to relax. Not everything goes to plan, much like long course racing. Adjust and make the best of it. The good news is you'll be ready to train/recovered much faster.

That said. That's some bull shit regarding the discounted entry to other events in the next few months.

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"One Line Robert"

You need to lighten up. And, I do hope neither you nor anyone else gets heatstroke this weekend racing an Oly in 106 heat. It is a very effective killer and does not just strike the unprepared much as you would like to think.

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They are catering to the slowest and weakest of which there are plenty in Kona..Not everyone qualified..


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Too late for that! The Iron in Ironman means about as much as the Star in Starbucks...

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While I generally agree with your post, it is not a race they feel they "deserve", but a race they signed up for and more importantly, PAID for.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

No, they should give the refund as cash so people can make a choice where they want to spend it! A lot of people plan there vacation around the race and might not have the time, money or just don't want to do those races or maybe not another WTC race.

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B.Oliver -My Blog...triguywithavx.wordpress.com
Powered by:
-accelerate3.com coaching-
-**TriSports.com Save 20% Message me for one time use code {restrictions apply...see site)

Does anyone know what the water temp is?

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They must of had an overstock of Muncie sprint caps as that's what mine says on it.

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Hahaha,say it 'aint so...surely they didn't?

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Im being serious. It really does say Muncie sprint.

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Here is my prediction on what will happen at the Muncie race....

Due to the shortening of the event a great many of the "participants" will now fancy themselves as "racers" because of the shorter distance.They will change their race strategy from a conservative, even paced Half Iron effort to an all out Olympic Distance at close to their top end race pace...They will unload one water bottle(or more) from their bikes and take less from the aid stations provided because of the change of "race plan"....They will come off the bike feeling okay because they have had the benefit of more help due to a crowded course and lesser distance and then will try to start the run at a pace far faster than they had planned (and probrably trained for)..As a result,on the run, there will be far more casualites due to the rapid spike in temps that their body will feel because they have pushed themselves harder than they would have in the 70.3 .Some fools will say that this proves they made the right decision to shorten the race when I believe that the decision to shorten the race will,in fact cause more heat related problems.... Heat is only a problem if you pace yourself incorrectly,this is a recipie for disaster.

Anyone want to make a bet?

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I find it curious that you think WTC should offer refunds to everyone that wants one, but somehow don't expect they would lose money by doing so.

It's not like WTC's expenses on this race are going to decrease because the length is shortened. The t-shirts, gatorade, timing chips, expo hall, etc etc are already paid for.

The real reason they shortened it was not because of the heat but because they have a bunch of left over Muncie sprint caps from last year.

Yes this really is the cap they gave me.

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yup

That's funny because I'm doing exactly that.

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Really just beyond understanding. Does anyone on this tread give a damn about anyone else but themselves?

Let's do this by the numbers; 1995, 300 out of 900 athletes are getting an IV and 7 spend the night in the hospital after a 100 degree day leaves carnage. Another 100 volunteer are in need of medical attention. I raced the event. This event boosts one of the most best medical directors in the USA and he is a triathlete. So afrer 32 years you have some darn smart folks operating this event.

2012: 1800 athletes and 1200 volunteers equals maybe 600-800 medicals. It just is not possible to take care of that many people. Period. The water yesterday was over 90d. USA Swimming will not allow an OWS event over 85!

Professionally the right call. The event could have just been cancelled. And Lord knows we have had our share of disagreements with the Tampa folks but in this case; they got it right!

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STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

I would imagine that this change is designed to protect volunteers as much as or more than participants. DavidK

http://www.thestarpress.com/...man-heat?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|Frontpage%20DontMiss

Is there athlete tracking available?

Found it: http://ironman.com/...r=2012#axzz1zwJdv8L3

You mean, you thought this was HALF IRONMAN.

+1

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nice to see there are rational and non emotional responses in this thread.

So WTC gets their money no matter what and only the athletes assume the financial risk?

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Very well put. I would not start any race regardless of the distance if the conditions are like today in Muncie. I value my health more than money and I'm not getting paid to do this. As far as the bucket listers who are complaining they have no clue anyway.

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I see obsessed people.

It would be interesting to know if they ever considered shortening the run, but leaving the swim/bike the same. The heat stress during the swim/bike is significantly less than that on the run and I'd wager there would be a very small percentage of athletes needing medical assistance off the bike, unless they were just being negligent on the bike and not taking in enough fluids/ electrolytes.

I think it's interesting that races are more than willing to cancel the swim for safely reasons (too cold, too much current, etc) but would never consider canceling the run adn leaving other distances the same. Surely, the danger is athletes "melting down" on the run. Why not run a 5k at the end, it's just as "fair" as canceling swim, or shortening races... if you added 9m to the bike, you could still call it a 70.3!

On a seperate note, I hate when they shorten/ modify races, but I'm never surprised and don't expect it to ever change. RD's and big companies, like WTC, have all the power and will continue to use/ abuse it. Triathlon is like all other capitalist pursuits- supply and demand. As long as races fill up and people are making money, races will function as they currently do. Why can't you get a refund or transfer entry to races? Because they don't have to. They have your money and you're not getting it back.

If participants aren't willing to do something about the issues that are important to them (race distances changing, ridiculous entry fees, etc) than expect things to never change. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

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John Hartpence, Athlete & Coach
tripence@gmail.com, @coachpence

Yep, that is the contract you signed when you signed up for the race. Just like most airline tickets are or others things you buy with a no return policy. I have been an RD. I know the money is basically all spent if the race happens or not. Sorry, this is just a hobby. If you want to start your own HTFU race series, and think you can stay in business after the first lawsuit against you, then go for it. If you think you can do a race and not have all the money spent before the race starts, and if something happens give back all your savings in the bank since who cares about profit, etc, then again, go for it. So many in this sport have NO idea how the business works. If there is no profit, there are no races.

I guess I should have forced the ITU to give me all my money back from the Canada Worlds when they had go make my race a duathlon rather than a triathon. I guess I should have forced the ITU to give all my money
back from the Gold Coast worlds since they stopped the race on a number of my family members for no reason and they were not allowed to finish. The amount of money I spent to take my family to that race and not even get their names in the results makes these complaints, well, ....


.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I don't think you nderstand my point....nobody said anything about you going back to the ITU and asking for money back.

My point is simple - there is financial risk on both sides, the race organizers and the athletes. That risk should be shared. I am not suggesting that refunds be given, but partial credit towards another race is reasonable.

The athletes signed on for a defined product. If that product is not delivered as promised, some form of compensation is not out of the question.

---

Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

wtf is a "Muncie?" is this an actual race?

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm not bitching about anything....and in general, I agree with WTC's decision re: Muncie. I am simply saying, that from a PR and customer relations standpoint, it is to WTC's benefit to offer a credit of some kind.

I don't agree that the athlete should bear the financial burden of WTC's decisions, regardless of waivers, etc. Is WTC obligated to offer a credit? Of course not....but, again, from a PR / customer service POV, they would be foolish not to.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Just show me one race that WTC does not fill up because of their existing policies! So, you might think they have a PR issue, but the results speak louder than any of our opinions.

So easy if you do not like what a business has to sell, just do not buy it. Why does this seem so hard for so many to understand? Do you buy food, or a car, or a house you do not like the terms on?
Oh I forgot, we now have folks bitching that their house is underwater and that is not fair and they want the rest of the country to pay for their contract they signed. Sorry, I just forget how we have become
such an entitlement society. (But do these same folks give up their profits to the country when they are on the plus side?)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Well the results seem to be stuck, and haven't been updated in over a half hour.

Maybe it's too hot so the let the computer take a break.

I just checked the weather and it's 96 degrees in Muncie after 11:00am. It didn't even get over 100!

The people you'd have to worry about most would not even be running yet at 11:00.

If they are truly concerned and this isn't a financial call (ie not willing to pony up for ice and more water and Gatorade etc...) then this should be cancelled. Slow finishers will still be on course for close to 3 hours (if not more) so they will still be dying from the heat and the volunteers will still have to be out there. And the fastest people will push themselves harder.

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Ian

I was one of the people who thought this was a bad decision and even talked some trash on the WTC Facebook page. But after going for a 65 mile ride a few hours west of Muncie at 5:30am, I could not imagine staying outside any longer, let alone if I were in the last wave.

Think WTC made the right call here, but everyone else is right that the discount policy is BS. Hopefully the rash of cancelled/modified events this year will lead to some changes.

I just raced at muncie and all I have to say is it was a beautiful day and it wasn't as hot as the forecast said.

Seriously though, the hottest part of the race was the swim. It was 88 deg and at the time it was probably hotter then the air temp. The bike and run were fine.

A lot of people were hammering the bike though. It was a very fast pace and it looked like a lot of people payed the price in the run.

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Now who could have seen that coming...;-)

Glad you didn't perish out there in those trying conditions..you sir are a 1/4 Ironman!!

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Do you rub salt into peoples' wounds whenever you get the chance as well?

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Hey,it sounds like he had a fun day.......Just hope he didn't get a sprint t-shirt to match the swim cap they gave him.

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Part snarky, part serious...

Did they hand out finisher's merchandise (medals, shirts, etc)?

If so, details? Was it IM 70.3 branded stuff?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

WTF would it matter man, it's just another race. I don't get why people are so caught up with the branding and the naming of races. Why can't people just be satisfied with their performances and the races that they do and quietly reflect and be happy with their results. What does it matter if it was an IM, or 70.3 or an olympic or a sprint. I feel like 90% of the people on this website care more about what the brand of the race they're doing is or its outside perception than how they actually perform. I agree it's a shit deal if these people signed up for a 70.3 and ran a shorter race, and yes they should get a refund but honestly what the hell difference does a t-shirt, or a visor make?

Sad.

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http://www.facebook.com/ReconFoundationTeam
http://www.facebook.com/MarineReconFoundation
http://www.reconfoundation.org

Nah. I think you misunderstood my question: I'm mostly curious how they handled the merchandise aspect of the event. Some people are really proud of that stuff. It symbolizes an accomplishment. I'm not knocking them, not even remotely.

Look, they (WTC/ RD) already spent money on all of that stuff. Medals. Hats. Shirts. Etc. It's decorated and is branded. That's what they do. When they change the race, what happens to the stuff? Did they still hand it out?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

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Actually,the main reason I am constantly winding people up and giving WTC shit is that I see so many people making such a big deal about a sport that is nowhere near as hard as it is made out to be.Now people here think that I'm doing that to put people down but it is quite the opposite, I am actually trying to make people realise that most folks are capable of achieving much more than they think they can.I speak to a hell of a lot of beginners and am constantly amazed how they have defeated themselves from the very start because they are lead to believe that some of these events are beyond them when clearly they are not....

I also believe that so many people are under achieving in the sport because they are afraid to push themselves as hard as they can and face up to difficult conditions.Having WTC cancelling legs or shortening races at an ever increasing rate only sends the wrong message to many newbies that there is no need to prepare for every eventuality because if shit goes wrong they won't have to face it...

I am sure I will get slammed for saying all of that but folks,instead of jumping down my throat because you think this doesn't apply to you just stop for a minute and wonder if maybe I'm am not completely wrong....I have tried,over the years to seriously approach people here about this but was shouted down so now I just make light of the whole situation and take the piss out of WTC because quite frankly I think it has become a joke.

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Yes, Muncie 70.3 "branded" hats and medals were handed out at the finish line today.

You know I have zero issues with you.....SO, with that being said....

Regardless of your opinions, WTC has to protect themselves as a business. They can and WOULD be sued and held liable for negligence if someone suffered a serious injury or worse, happened to die during the race.
It's easy for you to sit there and rant and rave, BUT if you owned a company and had to make the exact same decision as whether or not to protect your company AND the athletes, you'd do the exact same thing WTC did yesterday for Muncie's race. If you didn't, I would question you if I were a board member. I don't care HOW well prepared you are. Anyone could have a serious heat issue. Just watch some of the Kona meltdowns. By choosing a race between June-August, you take a chance of this happening. Everyone hopes to be able to race 140.6 or 70.3 when that's what they signed up for, but if WTC (or any other organizer) has to make a decision to protect themselves, WE can't blame them. Someone WOULD sue and WOULD win 9/10 times.

The water was very uncomfortable. Making it worse, the early start time put the sun right over the exit for the later waves. I couldn't see anything on the last third of the course. I needed a cold shower just from that hot disgusting lake.

Had no issues on the bike but the temp definitely turned up by the run. I was in the last wave of individuals which made our start a bit over an hour after the pros.

Almost everyone suffered on the run. I ended up 9 minutes slower over 10k on the same exact run course in may. There were walkers from mile 1. I would say by mile 4, 40% of the field was walking. The Muncie run course is no joke, it's a hard run in good conditions. Non stop rollers in the sun, no shade.

I agree with the decision, the integrity of the race remained. With those conditions, a 70.3 would have been a survival contest, hardly a race.

When I got to my car about a half hour after finishing, the temp was 101. My only complaint concerns the 4 races chosen for discounts. Giving us only races occurring in the next three months is unreasonable. They should understand that we already have commitments and dropping those for a last minute race is difficult to impossible. Hopefully they will reconsider the options given.

I agree with you wholeheartedly that finishing (not racing) any distance triathlon event is nowhere as hard as some people and industry makes it look like. Basically the whole thing is commercialized and if you have the money you can be called an ironman with couple months of training. Sad thing is it became a bucket list for a lot of people and WTC is profiting from that and If they run out of participants they might move the cut-off time to 20 hours.

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I see obsessed people.

X2! The bike pace was nuts (and I'm as guilty as any - I hammered hard), and the shortened course made it pretty hairy on my first loop - since the 40-45 folks went earlier, the 35-39 folks were starting their first lap as the 40-45 folks were on their second. That was pretty uncomfortable. I talked to or saw 4 people who were all pretty banged up due to bike crashes. There were a lot of people hanging out on the left, and it was hard to pass at times.

The run wasn't bad at all - after getting over some cramps from hammering too hard on the bike, I was able to plod along at a not too terribly awful pace (for me). I think the early start time and shorter swim/bike certainly helped. I really liked having aid stations every half mile!

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Travis Rassat
Vector Cycle Works
Noblesville, IN
BikeFit Instructor | FMS | F.I.S.T. | IBFI
Toughman Triathlon Series Ambassador

This x 1000

FYI the race was today. Not tomorrow. It's 102degF. Not heat index. Measured. Heat index is almost 114. Tomorrow the temp is dropping. Either you checked the wrong day or you need to find a better weather website.

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Kirk Noyes

Downtubes are for Dinosaurs

What a bunch of bullshit. We aren't talking "tough conditions". We are talking conditions that can harm enough people that their medical staff gets completely overwhelmed.

Have we already forgotten Fran Crippen? You think he was some sissy that just wasn't prepared to man up like you are? Give me a break. Some of you have the most absurd definition of what it means to be "tough".

You need to improve your reading comprehension skills. Significantly.

My agreement with, and I am certain UTG's point, was generic not specific. Neither of us even mentioned Muncie.

I didn't mention Muncie either, so maybe we are even on reading ccomprehension:).

Did they offer athletes the ability to defer their entry until next year's event, ala the Boston Marathon this year?

You don't need to. You are posting in the Muncie thread. This is a sport and I hope the reason people participate and train is to be healthy and have fun. This is not a survival contest or a UFC fight. The whole race should have been cancelled, I don't care what distance it is, it does not make any sense to swim in 90 degree water let alone trying to run in 100 degree temperatures on a though course.

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I see obsessed people.

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Firstly please show me where I said anything about being "tough" as I didn't say that, I said being prepared for difficult conditions.I love it when people make up shit just to argue a point..Instead of going off on a rant perhaps you should take what someone says and realise that they are allowed to have an opinion that is different from yours and that if you actually engaged in a discussion something positive might actually come of it..but this is Slowtwitch and that doesn't happen often these days.

Secondly,can you please send me a link that shows the actual cause of Fran Crippens death,I have read that the is no definite cause.You are not the first to bring his name up into a topic that does not involve him but it seems some people won't let it go.I too know someone who died during a vey hot Ultra event and he was as fit as they come,things like that just happen.

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"40% of the field was walking after mile 4"
apparently those people were not even ready for a Olympic, that's sad. if you trained for a hot Half you should be have no issues with an Olympic, no matter what the condition are,

I raced in the last wave today and was as unhappy as anyone upon finding out the race was downsized. The way they handled the vouchers was a complete joke. I plan on writing a rational email to WTC letting them know that it is not a good solution. Am I going to boycott future Ironman races, am I swearing off Muncie forever ? Probably not. The Endurathon was a great event and other than some new signage and those pesky WTC lawyers, the rest of the staff and community that hosts this race are top notch.

I think the worst part of the course was likely the swim. This is my strongest leg and I almost pulled my cap off after the first few minutes because I was getting so uncomfortable and a little bit queasy. Bike course was a breeze. You could tell it was heating up, but the distance was no problem with the earlier start time. The run was carnage. How many people walk an Olympic 10K at mile 1?! A lot, including myself. The Muncie run is challenging on a good day with how hilly and sunny it is. I negative split by about 1.5 minutes but it took me nearly the first three miles to my core temperature down ... (Pro Tip: ice and sponges down pants.)

I am disappointed in the late notice and disappointed by the worthless voucher, but stuff happens and we live to fight another day. My 'everyone has a hot race/training story' is IMKY 2008 when it was 93 with 78% humidity. That run course was carnage as well.


PS ... I will be interested to see the % DNFs. A low percentage could be construed as good call by race officials I guess. Being one of the last waves though, I didnt notice anyone in medical distress. A lot of tired faces, but nobody ready to keel over.

if you're angry you should have just run off with a box of gels from an aid station. there's about ~$100 worth of gels per box and it could count as a partial refund. lol.

Aah...we have reached the point of outrageous examples that have no bearing on this discussion.

Well played.

Funny, I don't remember talking about "entitlement societies" or anything of the sort. Wait....hang on....let me check something.....nope, I specifically said that I agree with WTC's decision re: Muncie.

Funny 'dat.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

this is slow twitch exaggeration. I averaged 9m30s miles and that put me at about 800th out of ~1200 males.

It was some good running out there. anything below 10min/miles in that kind of heat is NOT walking. and that was most of the field doing that pace or faster.

Quote:

ad thing is it became a bucket list for a lot of people and WTC is profiting from that and If they run out of participants they might move the cut-off time to 20 hours.

Oh, and what are YOUR times? Elitest Jerk.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Started the run with no gels and finished with twelve!

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_____________________
Fester from Detroit, Mi

It was just that had I not known better - I would think that I wrote your post. I have been leaving this thread alone - I think we all know where I stand on the race, it only being a half and for people to be prepared. You are correct in the fact that they are starting to cater to the tail end, forgetting that by and large, an organism leads with its brains....

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

So why didn't you cancel the SWIM. I wasn't sure if a cut off existed, but 85 F seems about right. You just can't swim (particularly a whole mile) in hot water. Human beings aren't designed for that.

I just got home and started reading through this, and it seems others had a similar experience to me (the swim being utterly ridiculous). I was completely finished at the end of the swim. If you looked at my performance you might guess I over-biked (1:15 bike and 1:05 run)--but what if I told you I rode at 72% of my FTP? I simply couldn't go any harder I was so overheated after that swim. And once I got to the run I just kept slowing down but it was more of the same--just couldn't cool off. Ended up alternating running around 7 min/mile (because I still had plenty of energy) and walking (to cool down).

And moving the start earlier did nothing. I would have preferred racing in the afternoon when all the sweating would have done me some good (lower humidity).

Not real happy about this.

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Oh yeah!

Well I apologize for offending your delicate sensibilities. Let's move on and get constructive: how did you prepare for a historic heat wave with 90 degree water and 100 degree air at your last 70.3?

Me too although some of them felt like they were a mile apart.

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I like the earlier star time. There isn't much wind when you get on the bike.

I agree about the swim being ridiculously hot. But once I got on the bike I was cooled off. The run IMO was the coolest (temp wise) part of the race. I just stuffed my self with ice and sponges.

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I think it was but honestly I haven't even looked at the medal or hat yet. I just threw the medal in my bag and used the hat as a sweat rag. The hat kinda looks like the same one from last year but I haven't really looked at it yet.

The shirt says 70.3.

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I lived in Cairns,Australia for over 20 years........That's how.

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The Iron in Ironman means about as much as the Star in Starbucks...




LOL. Thank god I didnt get that tattoo......

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Very constructive. Thanks for the contribution.

I agree with the first guy. You can't wear the shirt. If you enter a race for more that the shirt isn't it to say you completed the course? That's what makes the shirt something to be proud of isn't it? Otherwise, why register? Just do the same distance on any Saturday.

I once did an IM in this heat.....did I miss out on the opportunity to sue?


Mean Temperature
74.3 °F
Maximum Temperature
87.1 °F

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

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So it seems that you have a little hate on for me,that is fine..What exactly do you want,20 years worth of Ironman training programs?...Living in and training in a tropical area full time is enough to prepare me for any hot race anywhere and it gave me more than enough experience to be able to comment on what can be tolerated in the heat...but this not about my triathlon training (even though you are now going to try and make it so) it is about my observations of the training attitudes of age group triathletes over the last 26 years..and in my opinion a great many of them are not reaching their potential.

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I don't know you or have anything against you personally. I just want to know how to prepare for 90 water and 100 air temperature in a 70.3. Outside of moving to Australia for 20 years, of course.

Im glad you are prepared for that, but in the USA its one of the worst heat waves in the last decade at least. I believe my area gets the same weather as Muncie and we are breaking heat wave records by multiple days.

Your insuitiation that people can't put up with this stuff only because they didn't prepare well is,again, bullshit. Its dangerous, even for the best prepared people. And WTC or any other race director cannot put on a race in such conditions. Not because they are trying to wussify the sport, but because it is dangerous and medical personnell can't keep up.

Well safety first..I get that!


I don't get it to be honest and think it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with protecting themselves from lawsuits and using safety as a scapegoat. I gather that the waivers you sign before racing accepting risks are completely meaningless.

First of all this was not an Ironman, it was a 70.3 (half ironman)


So Ironman Muncie is now an Olympic triathlon...It reminds me of a friend who said she ran a marathon. It was called a marathon but was really only a half but at least they didn't wimp out and run a 10k.

Triathlon is going to become the new 10K Charity Fun Runs where everyone is a winner.

Also this has nothing to do with the wussification of triathlon etc...

Yes it does.

This decision is for the safety of the athletes who race the distance


If the organizers of longer distance triathlons were really concerned about racer's safety, they would require qualifying races. If you finish an Olympic race within a certain time and within a certain number of days to the longer race, then you can race the half. Ditto for using a half-ironman to race a full Ironman.

In this case, they were concerned about lawsuits.

Actually, I think if the organizers were really concerned about safety RE: heat, then they wouldn't be scheduling races like Muncie in mid July. There is a very high risk of it getting hot.

Here's what gets me about this whole thing: Triathlon is a hot sport. Our races are in the summer. The World Champs is in Hawaii for the full and Las Vegas for the Half. There are countless others that have a high potential for super hot conditions. Nobody expects pleasant, cool temps at these races. It's almost a tradition for tri to be hot. Why is the heat an issue now?

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I'm no lawyer, but I don't get the comments that WTC is afraid of lawsuits. Kona, Vegas, Louisville, Cozumel, etc. All very hot races. We all sign waivers. I just don't get it. How can you sue when you sign your life away to race?

At the awards ceremony Greg Bennett made a remark that it was the right thing to do because nobody died. I think it is more of a PR issue that WTC doesn't want any bad press.

As the awards started at 1 p.m. yesterday, there were still finishers coming in. I'm sitting there thinking, over 5 hours to do an Olympic? I know people have bad days, mechanicals, etc, but really? The reason they are adjusting these races is to accommodate the back of the pack. They have a huge gap in abilities at these races now with the growth of the sport. They need to do something with the cut off times and or some sort of qualification process for the longer distances. The guy racked next to me in transition was racing a triathlon for the first time and didn't even know how to rack his bike. He should not be allowed to sign up for a half IM as a first timer. As long as he pays his $275, nobody cares.

If that is the case then they will never shorten the race again. If you look at the muncie Facebook page its filled with a lot of pissed off people complaining about having trained in the heat all summer and driving all the way there to find out its an olympic.

I just took a look and they deleted all of them.

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Yeah, WTC, owned by a private equity firm, needs to tighten cut-off times so that they can limit their customer base and potential future growth. Yup, that's likely. Sounds like smart business.

Good point. Or they piss off all their loyal customers who boycott their races. They end up losing the stable customers who support them year in and year out and the business goes belly up. I know, not likely. All we can do is complain here on the forum or go race other events.

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Actually of all the race series in the world WTC is the only one set up to reap the benefits of a qualification process.Don't forget that they have the 5150,70.3 and Ironman series so qualification for newbies would be an easy and profitable progression if they implemented it.

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They had a 5 hour cut-off for an Olympic and allowed people to finish over 5 hours???? Is this a joke or am I going to be called elitist again? LOL

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I see obsessed people.

Sorry for sounding self centered, but yes I am thinking about myself. I am a 40 year old school teacher who saved up money to go to this event for over a year. This would have been my first Ironman 70.3. I knew it was going to be hot 7-10 days before the race, and so did every other racer I talked to. The thing that irritates the crap out of me, is that they waited until, I had spent all my travel budget and also waited until I had gone into there Ironman store and spent money on products to commemorate the event. Then 14 hours before the start they drop this bombshell.

So now everything I came to do and all that I worked for is a lie. I can't wear any clothing that says Ironman Muncie 70.3 because it wasn't. I have to tell 100's of people back home that "Well I didn't actually do an 70.3 so it still doesn't count" (I was one of 600 first timers at the event.)

Bottom line is I spent 1500 dollars to go do an Ironman 70.3, and they ripped me off!!! All my money is gone and I can't afford to go to another Ironman in the foreseeable future. Not to mention all the sacrifices of time and effort I put in for training and time away from my family.

The lousy 125 dollars off of the registration fee for the next upcoming Ironman events in 2012 is a slap in the face. Virtaully no one is going to capitalize on this pathetic extension of an apology. I don't know what kind of financial situation you are in but many people I talked to at the event were like me. They have the chance to do this 1 or 2 times in there life. Now it's gone!!! But hey! at least Ironman corporate still got there payday!!!!

Go ahead and chalk up one more sport that is only going to cater to the financially wealthy.

If you are going to step up to do an Ironman you should know your body to know when to quit. That's what this level of sports involves. Move up the cutoff's do something but don't handle it like this. 95% of the athletes I talked to after the race stand with me on this position.

They got it WRONG!

Does anyone out there have contact info of who to lodge a formal complaint with? I personally want to send a letter or phone call to the folks in Florida who were responsible in making this decision.

Good on you for standing up and being counted,I wish more people would start doing the same.

I honestly belive that WTC and some of the race directors who operate under them are starting to lose touch with the general triathlon public.That is a sad thing.

..

You are exactly right. To all the pro's, and the folks who can afford to do one of two of these every year. This is "Just another race". To the masses of middle income Triathlon dreamers out there this was going to be our one shot at standing on the line at this level and making memories to last a lifetime. We are the general triathlon public. I would have rather walked across the finish line of a 70.3 that ran across the line of what they gave us.

As the sport grows, it's getting "wussified" for sure... I agree with both above.... Back of the pack dollars are the same as front of pack... USAT needs to be sure they are not compromising the integrity of the sport in exhange for the growth, it will only destroy the sport in the end, either race casulaties by inexperienced folks who should not be there to begin with or the watering down of things to accomodate those folks could kill this wonderful sport....

There should be more of a qual process for 70.3 or 140.6 - like at least doing 1 USAT sancitoned sprint or olympic tri... i dont think thats too much to ask... would most likley bring in more dollars in the end....

Blame Americans and their litigious society. That's why it was shortened. If anything happened to an athlete due to the conditions? Lawsuit.

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How does Danny Hart sit down with balls that big?

Post:
doubleplay wrote:
bigred3 wrote:
I'm no lawyer, but I don't get the comments that WTC is afraid of lawsuits. Kona, Vegas, Louisville, Cozumel, etc. All very hot races. We all sign waivers. I just don't get it. How can you sue when you sign your life away to race?

At the awards ceremony Greg Bennett made a remark that it was the right thing to do because nobody died. I think it is more of a PR issue that WTC doesn't want any bad press.

As the awards started at 1 p.m. yesterday, there were still finishers coming in. I'm sitting there thinking, over 5 hours to do an Olympic? I know people have bad days, mechanicals, etc, but really? The reason they are adjusting these races is to accommodate the back of the pack. They have a huge gap in abilities at these races now with the growth of the sport. They need to do something with the cut off times and or some sort of qualification process for the longer distances. The guy racked next to me in transition was racing a triathlon for the first time and didn't even know how to rack his bike. He should not be allowed to sign up for a half IM as a first timer. As long as he pays his $275, nobody cares.

They had a 5 hour cut-off for an Olympic and allowed people to finish over 5 hours???? Is this a joke or am I going to be called elitist again? LOL
As the sport grows, it's getting "wussified" for sure... I agree with both above.... Back of the pack dollars are the same as front of pack... USAT needs to be sure they are not compromising the integrity of the sport in exhange for the growth, it will only destroy the sport in the end, either race casulaties by inexperienced folks who should not be there to begin with or the watering down of things to accomodate those folks could kill this wonderful sport....

There should be more of a qual process for 70.3 or 140.6 - like at least doing 1 USAT sancitoned sprint or olympic tri... i dont think thats too much to ask... would most likley bring in more dollars in the end....


RoubiaxRider Response:


I agree completely. I would go as far as 2-3 Olympic Tri's minimum for a 70.3. This Ironman stuff is, and should be serious business. Also I think the cutoff times are far to lenient. Anybody who needs that long shouldn't be able to wear the Ironman name. I once saw a 140.6 where a lady completed it in a walking boot. She walked the whole run, but still beat cut-off. That's not an Ironman!!!

Actually, assuming she also completed the swim and bike portions, she is most assuredly an Ironman. Just as much as you and Peter Reid.

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Sorry to correct you, but I'm not an Ironman. I was denied the opportunity, Remember? The whole point of this thread.

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Hey ,Roubaix I do sympathise with you for shitty weekend but even if you had started and finished the race that you were supposed to do,you wouldn't have been an Ironman.....You would have finished a half Ironman.


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If you paid for a half ironman and they shorten the event, is an option to dispute your charge on your credit card for a full refund? You signed up for event A and you did not get it. Is there an agreement where you waive this right? Is it also an option to take a small claims action for the cost of travel, hotel, etc? Not a lawyer and not a Muncie participant, but it got me thinking. I am going to do the REV3 in the Wisconsin Dells in August, and I will be ready for any WI summer weather - 100 degrees included.

True, but you know the point I am getting at.

roubaixrider reply:

I am sure you could try something legal, but big man versus little man in that realm has never had a pretty outcome for the little man, historically.

Wow I don't know the going rate but I would $600 for a fuck is a pretty high end hooker.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Right. As Nick pointed out, you were denied the opportunity to be a half ironman. I'm sorry about that. So I guess walking cast lady is doubly up on you then?

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<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?

Dave the problem with your comments is WTC is a FOR PROFIT company, so they MADE MONEY off this shortened event. They are basically running a business with little to no risk. THEY GET PAID NO MATTER WHAT. I bet if you rented a hotel for a week and it burned down, you would get your money back. Or if they lost AC they would give you money back or FREE nights stay's. Hell if an Airline can only get you half way to your destination, they will put you in a hotel room and get you the rest of the distance without charging you. Sorry but your comparisons don't fly. And no one should feel sorry for a FOR PROFIT company that might lose some money on an event occasionally, its called risk and most businesses have it.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

If they really have this liability issue, and the temp and condition rules vary by location. Why not put something out ahead of time. We know what the wetsuit temperature is, why not put in place documented policies. Ie race will be shortened to oly if heat index is projected to be over 100 by noon, swim cancelled if water temp exceeds 93.244 degrees. what ever, at least let people know ahead of time. As said other races are run in this same or worst temperatures, so still not sure the risk is as large as some think.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Not the OP but the last HIM I did was forecast for 42-45 (107.6 to 113F) and the race was prepared as this: They had aid stations every 1.3 km on a 2 loop course. They had the fire department with trucks at one end and a misting tent at the other. At each run aid station there was ice water that the volunteers would dump on you if you wanted. There was ice at every aid station. The bike had bottles 1-1.5 L ICE COLD water and aid stations every 9 km. There were, however, no gels at all, but oranges, pretzels, bananas and spectators giving away other stuff. As to your 2nd point, obviously, you're wrong.

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http://harvestmoon6.blogspot.com
https://www.caringbridge.org/visit/katasmit

No way that would be to realistic. Say hey folks its going to be absolutly dangerous out there. Dont do it, we will give you free enter into next year if you don't go now.

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Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.

Perhaps a little perspective:

I was reading the newpaper this morning. There have been 61 reported heat-related deaths during this heat wave. Just this weekend within 50 miles of Muncie, a toddler died after being left in a car by her dad and a young child was taken to the hospital after suffering seizures (also left in the car by a parent).

Some reckless parent who is stupid enough to do such a horrific thing to his kid has no comparison to a group of highly trained athletes who willfully place themselves in this environment.

The only way anyone or (we) is/are going to get their point across to WTC is quit REGISTERING for WTC races. The end!

I would support a boycott.

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Oh yeah!

Bottom line, like anything one buys, is read the contract before purchasing. So, if you can show me in the registration process from WTC and active that WTC no complete their contract for what folks paid for,
then law suits should follow. BUT, if WTC, or any other product was purchased and before the purchase was made, the terms where written down, please help me understand how WTC did not up hold their part of the
contract? Things happen in our sport and races get changed, period. If one does not like this "business", then why are people buying the product, and then AFTERwards, bitching that somehow that the terms of the contract they signed and paid for were not followed?

As another poster just AGAIN posted, if you do not like the product, why are you buying? And the excuses that they are the only game in town is well, ... As long as they fill up their races, it is clear their business
model is a perfect one. Any Triathlon knows the FEW type A's that bitch with still sign up, so they are just ignored. That is what I did for the race I was an RD for. And if they did not sign up next year, great,
one less bitchy person to deal with. And I never had issues filling up my race.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

highly trained athletes! Lmfao

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Oh yeah!

I agree here. The only modification to the race should have been canceling the swim. The air temp was not the issue, but after thrashing in the water for 30 minutes I was toast. Just like you my bike did not reflect the effect (1:13 bike), but the best I could manage was 30 watts less than my HIM target at a HR that was 15 BPM higher than normal.

I live in Georgia where I have trained in the extreme heat for a while and have had pretty good races at some hot / humid location (70.3 Texas and Gulf Coast) earlier this year. I don't know how anyone could have preped for an 88 degree swim.

you didn't train in a hot tub to get ready?

Yep thanks for the second...I can't believe no one else is talking about this. If USA swimming cuts off OWS at 85 and heat is the issue, how the hell can they justify 90??? And while I'm in Chicagoland now I trained/raced in Austin the past 3 years, and the air temp was just like a Texas race in the summer (hot but doable). The race should have been a 56 mike/13 run.

Interesting to hear your numbers. I must confess I tore an ab muscle in Feb and hadn't swam basically at all since so I wasn't sure if it was just my lack of swim fitness, but I really put no effort into that swim and was still up around 175 BPM coming out of the water and I just couldn't get the number down either, so my power was much lower than planned and I was too heated up to run.

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__________________________

Oh yeah!

My pool's regular temp is 85-86º. Despite the fact that I have asked politely more than once to turn it down, it stays. They gotta keep it warm enough for the active older adults, who out number me in both manpower and trips to the facility. I train there regularly without much of an issue. Just like the advice for the other legs, you need to adjust your pace to match the conditions. This includes OW, regardless of what USA swimming allows or doesn't allow.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

USA Swimming also considers the 5K to be the 'short' open water race, not the 1.2 miles or less you see at 95%+ of triathlons. Pretty much every sprint triathlon around here from June through mid-October happens in 85F+ temperatures, but even for the turtles, you aren't spending an insane amount of time in the water for a 600M sprint swim.

Oh dear! What do we do about Badwater?

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Shorten it and run it the other way.......Surely humans can't function in heat like that?


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I don't care what distance it is, it does not make any sense to swim in 90 degree water let alone trying to run in 100 degree temperatures on a though course.


Or, since most triathlons are raced in the summer and in hot locations, people can train accordingly. I don't understand why people have such a hard time with this concept. Surely someone out there knows what the summers can be like in the hot parts of the country but they agreed to set up the race there and people can easily assess the risk of hot temperatures. Why on earth would you go to all the trouble to set up a race and then cancel it just because it's hot, in a not part of the country?

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I know,I don't get it either,one would think that nobody has ever lived in hot areas let alone compete in triathlons in the heat.People have been doing this kind of stuff and more in hot conditons for decades but it seems only now that it is such an issue.Yes it can be dangerous but hey people could always try slowing down and actually adapt to the conditions of the day.

I know we are a tough bunch down here but seriously you Yanks make us look like super-heroes as here are a few events that we go to specifically because they are bloody hot...;-)

www.hellofthewest.com

www.dirtndust.com

www.crocodile-trophy.com
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Pathetic on so many fronts it is hard to fathom.

For the record; I have had nothing to do with this event since 2007 and I raced it 7 times with all my staff and training mates over 200 times or more. Plus volunteering for 12 years and the Rd for 4.

With that said; are you crazy, insanely self-centered or both? The statement that this is your first 1/2 says it all. Have you ever stood out at a volunteer aid station for 12 hours in this heat? No, probably not. To suggest the race should have just ran as advertized is nuts.

Do you really think it is fine to risk the lives of all those people; 1,200 volunteer alone, just so you can justify your $1,500? Wow. Guess a human life is not worth much. I rode back to my house after the race at 1pm and it was the hottest ride in my life after 40 years of biking. There must have been 500 walking still from 11:30-12:30. I can tell you for a fact it would have been tragic to ask anyone to be out there after 2pm. Period.

BTW, many of those volunteers started at 3am.

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STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

Why would your volunteers need to stand at an aid station for 12hrs at a 70.3 race or for that matter at an Ironman race.Why would you require of your volunteers that they do a 12hr shift anyway.

People do full shifts working in the heat every day on construction sites and other outdoor jobs.

Just admit that the race was shortened due to fear of litigation and we will all go away quietly.
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How many triathlons have you produced and how many 70.3 distance events or event a sprint tri for that matter have you volunteered for?

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STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

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Enough but you still haven't answered my question as to why a volunteer would need to stand at an aid station for a period of time that exceeds the leg cut-off by hours....Why would the bike course volunteers need to be out there for 12 hrs?Why would the run course volunteers need to be out there for 12 hrs in a 70.3 race..How about doing what is sensible and rotate shifts..

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Ultra-tri-guy wrote:

Just admit that the race was shortened due to fear of litigation and we will all go away quietly.

Okay. Done. Now just admit that litigation is only an increased fear because an increased number of people actually can get hurt in those conditions and we can all move along to a new topic finally :).

We are all just talking in circles about two pretty legitimate points of view IMO.

Do you really think it is fine to risk the lives of all those people; 1,200 volunteer alone


Now the volunteers lives are at risk? It's getting hotter all the time at Muncie. In a week it will have been the hottest place in the entire Universe on race day.

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Oh I have no doubt that some people can get hurt and have already admitted that someone I dropped dead on the highway during The Trans Australia Footrace..We have people die in Oz every year during events but you know what sometimes that happens.Hell we had one guy years ago who lost a leg because his quads liquified after he fell over at the finish of a hot run..Yes it is sad but it happens...............My issues with WTC is that they are cutting legs from races,shortening races and altering races at an ever increasing rate,so much so that it now becoming commonplace.Cold,hot,waves,blah,blah,blah...Where is it going to end?

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Sadly, this is exactly what we are talking about in our great sport. Those that have done little to nothing bitch to those of us who have done almost everything. Unless you have been on a race team and see how this all works; you would have no idea what happens behind the finish line.

Many volunteers show-up at 3am because they love this sport; some we even have to threaten, nicely, to not come out before then!

They start with set-up, then body mark, then ride a kayak till the swim is over, jump on a moto and take an official on the course till 2pm, then catch finishers and put them in the med tent, help with awards and then stay till clean up which requires 2 orders of pizza delivered and maybe get home at midnight.

Shifts of volunteers is a nice idea for those that have never organized an event. Sounds good on paper right? How do they first wave of volunteers get out mid-day when the roads are closed for 1,800 athletes? Oh, here is an idea. Let's stop the non-stop flow of athletes so we can switch volunteers out of a remote aid station.

Answer the question; have you ever done any of this? I have. And BTW; I raced all 7 events after volunteer 75 hours race week.

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STIndiana
America Multi-Sport, Inc.
America's Half June 10, 2017
USAT RD Century Club
http://www.americamultisport.com

Do not even try to ask a fair question. Most of these folks just bitch, and have never helped. I have put on races. I help at tons. Just getting enough help to put on a race is NOT easy!
And I have been out helping for 10 hour shifts in the heat and it is much harder than racing! The RD did the right thing to shorten the race. Maybe should have canceled the swim also.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I have no doubt that there are a few volunteers that do very long days on race day (as I have at many races ) but you,in your post for dramatic effect,made it sound like all of your 1,200 volunteers were out there standing by an aid station for 12 hrs,which of course,they weren't...I'll be putting in probrably 13 hrs at IMC this year and during that time I'll be sure to be a responsible adult and make sure I prepare for that long day,just like the athletes should.

Oh and yes,many big races actually have volunteer captains to look after their volunteer army..I am thinking that as that is the norm for WTC Ironmans perhaps the 70,3's should follow suit.


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Yes and of course none of us have any idea what it takes to put on a big triathlon but then again how the fuck would you know as you don't even know anything about what some of us have done?

But hey I will defer to you knowledge and just act like I have never worked at any race ever,Hell while I'm at it lets pretend I've never completed a triathlon either..What on earth would I know?


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Global warming will turn Triathlon into a winter sport.

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sometimes

If that were the case then we wouldn't have any triathlons in Texas during the summer. Yet, we have a ton of triathlons during the summer and we all survive. Scary, huh?

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

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It has been quite a year so far,first we had a tidal wave in St George,then we had a blizzard in Boise and now solar flares in Muncie.....Clearly God doesn't like triathletes!


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Your repeated postings wreak of elitism and ignorance. A disgusting combination. Well done.


To be expected from someone with ULTRA-tri-guy in their name though. Just in case everyone here isn't aware, this guy does ULTRAS! Whoa! You must be able to push yourself through pain unbearable to others. Suffer through conditions that would make mortals crumble. You sir, are an ULTRA-TRI-GUY!

I really don't understand all the discontent with a shortened race? The people who are upset are first timers who wanted to check this off their list. Or maybe those that invested half a year of training for this single race. Or I hope so at least. I can understand their frustrations but some of these postings sound incredibly selfish and ignorant at best. I can't imagine anyone who races often getting upset - apart from the poor compensation for a downgraded race.


Is racing hard? Is racing a 70.3 or 140.6 hard? Racing is as hard as you want it to be. A sprint can be the most challenging/painful event if you know how to bury yourself. I guess Mr. Ultra-Tri-Guy and I can agree on that. Again, the people here who are all up in arms are those who pride themselves in FINISHING a 70.3. I highly doubt anyone is upset who RACES, or attempts to race, at any distance. Might they be disappointed? Sure. I was a bit disappointed (also disappointed that I race like shit in any conditions above 90 but thats for the cry like a little bitch thread). But I race quite often, as do many others, and this was just another race. And it happened to be slightly shorter than originally planned.

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"One Line Robert"

Hahaha,if you actually knew me you would realise what a stupid rant you have just had but that is your perogative.Like so many others here you don't actually spend the time to figure out why some of us have the opinions that we have.I could have a very uneducated opinion of you based on your little attack of me but I'll just chalk it down to you having Monday morning fever.


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WTC just sent out an e-mail extending a $150 discount to next year's race in addition to the discounts announced over the weekend. I'm glad they listened and added another option.

Now what will some complain about?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

It is not a $150 discount......................

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Pink? Maybe. Maybe not. You decide.

They are offering early registration till sept. 1 for $150.