Saw this at the Gordo forum. Some pretty good arguments against the steep tri-position, how it affects power and all:
Some bike fit notes from the high performance conference that I attended in March. The audience was a group of elite coaches -- I expect that Bruce tailored his comments to the needs of elite triathletes.
While my personal beliefs (that "road" positions are superior for power generation) are the same as Bruce's there are some points to bear in mind:
a -- my current position (73 degree seat tube angle) has been achieved over a number of seasons -- prior to my yoga-immersion phase (12 weeks of 5-8 hours per week in the winter of 2001/2) -- a road position would have been pointless for me as I would have only lasted 90 minutes on the bars due to pain.
b -- observations from riding with various partners over the last few years
i. easy riding on the aerobars enables athletes to build position specific flexibility -- the better your flexibility and greater your TT comfort, the easier it is to switch between bikes (road vs. TT). If you experience discomfort in your TT position then have it reviewed. Once it is reviewed then base training on the aerobars will help your body get used to the position.
ii. many athletes are flexible 'forwards' but tight 'backwards' -- good hamstring flexibility but tight adductors, hip flexors and deep quads -- this imbalance is a leading cause of back pain. It can also lead to other issues. An example, in the summer of 2001, I experienced persistent hip flexor cramping on my long rides. I thought that weak hip flexors were the cause of the pain. In fact, the issue was tightness through the front of my hip region. I was riding a mid-range geometry, having changed from a tri-specific bike. While I had the hamstring flexibility for this position, chronic hip flexor tightness resulted from my hip muscles being unable to relax and contract. Even with my tri-position, I used to experience burning through my low back and, I expect, this was hip mobility related.
c -- your home terrain and riding buddies are important considerations for geometry. While you might covet a tri-specific bike, this type of frame could prove sub-optimal if you lived in hilly terrain and enjoyed group riding. Tri-specific bikes (by this I mean steep geometry) climb poorly relative to road bikes and don't handle as well. If you've spent your entire riding career on a steep set-up then you'll be amazed at the difference. Likewise, if you are used to a road position then show caution when you first hop on a steep frame.
d -- you need to be both lean and flexible to pull off a comfortable "road" TT position. If you are soft around the middle or inflexible then you'll be best served with a steep, more tri-specific position.
e -- if stability, safety and comfort are equal then favour superior power over aerodynamics.
f -- spend a lot of time on your race bike/set-up in the seven weeks leading into your goal race. Once your position is set, resist the urge to fine-tune for race day -- the classic change that IM athletes make is a significant drop in aerobar height for race day. Do not change your bar height for race day! If you think that you can tolerate a lower position then use it for two months before race day.
There are exceptions to every rule -- these are my thoughts as at April 2003!
Cheers,
gordo
Bike Fit Notes
Bruce Baxter, TriNZ High Performance Conference
March 2003
Bruce is a foot doc that has a lot of experience working with Olympic and Elite cyclists/runners/triathletes. He’s based in Christchurch and is Gordo’s podiatrist.
These are his opinions – not facts – Bruce makes the point that his views merely represent a starting point for coaches and athletes.
A forward position is sub-optimal for power production.
Position + Fitness = Power + Endurance
The starting point for a bike fit exercises is a review of an athlete’s muscle balance assessment (the MBA is a report done for all elite NZ athletes – gordo has been through the process, very interesting).
Start with the foot/shoe.
• The shoe needs to fit snuggly, no movement. When sizing juniors, you compromise safety when you purchase shoes that they will grow into.
• The heel counter must be rigid and there should be NO movement through the heel – this is very important for biomechanical safety. A locked heel assists in the prevention of pronation.
• The sole should be completely rigid. Bruce likes the shoe to fit to the toe – GB Note – I know that some athletes find this set-up to be too restrictive and not comfortable – however, Bruce and my other bike fit guy are adamant that this is optimal. Female riders, particularly, should purchase bike shoes at the end of the day when their feet are likely to be largest.
• Shoes should have a removable liner – as the direction of force is down and total stability is desirable, Bruce is a believer in form orthotics to enable an even weight distribution.
• Bruce uses a dipped knee test, to determine if an athlete is likely to benefit from a form orthotic. Stand on one leg in bare feet, do a single leg squat, if knee collapses inwards then a form orthotic will assist with stability. As well, the results of this test will tell you about the risk of going to a fixed cleat system. Bruce is a big believer in the benefits of fixed cleats – although – they haven’t been able to get me fixed yet!
Cleat position – old school method is to bisect the head of the first metatarsal – Bruce’s preferred method is to bisect the whole of the forefoot – with most people this results in alignment about 5-6mm behind the ball of the foot. Athletes with calf or Achilles tendon pain should always check cleat position. A forward cleat position places additional stress and fatigue on the calf and AT.
In triathletes, poor bike position can predispose an athlete to running injuries. A common example would be the forward cleat position fatiguing the calves/ATs and tendonitis being manifested during run training.
Some fit tips:
• While watching one legged pedaling – gaps in the top of the cycle can indicate seat too low, toe pointing can indicate seat too high
• ITB issues and/or pelvis rocking – seat too high
• Patellar Femoral Syndrome – seat likely too low
• Front of knee should align with the middle of the first metatarsal joint at the forward phase of the stroke.
• On the bars, shoulder blades should be back and elbows should be supporting the upper body. If bars and too far forward then athlete will shrug and compress neck when looking forward.
Saddle Tips
• The most important issue with the saddle is to have the pelvis as stable as possible.
• The saddle should provide even pressure across the three points of contact (sitting bones and forward bone).
• Cut-outs create saddle flex and reduce stability – they solve the “problem” of comfort but can create biomechanical issues and loss of power.
• Women are reluctant to discuss saddle fit issues with their bike fit guy – as a result, they often end up with sub-optimal position.
Some bike fit notes from the high performance conference that I attended in March. The audience was a group of elite coaches -- I expect that Bruce tailored his comments to the needs of elite triathletes.
While my personal beliefs (that "road" positions are superior for power generation) are the same as Bruce's there are some points to bear in mind:
a -- my current position (73 degree seat tube angle) has been achieved over a number of seasons -- prior to my yoga-immersion phase (12 weeks of 5-8 hours per week in the winter of 2001/2) -- a road position would have been pointless for me as I would have only lasted 90 minutes on the bars due to pain.
b -- observations from riding with various partners over the last few years
i. easy riding on the aerobars enables athletes to build position specific flexibility -- the better your flexibility and greater your TT comfort, the easier it is to switch between bikes (road vs. TT). If you experience discomfort in your TT position then have it reviewed. Once it is reviewed then base training on the aerobars will help your body get used to the position.
ii. many athletes are flexible 'forwards' but tight 'backwards' -- good hamstring flexibility but tight adductors, hip flexors and deep quads -- this imbalance is a leading cause of back pain. It can also lead to other issues. An example, in the summer of 2001, I experienced persistent hip flexor cramping on my long rides. I thought that weak hip flexors were the cause of the pain. In fact, the issue was tightness through the front of my hip region. I was riding a mid-range geometry, having changed from a tri-specific bike. While I had the hamstring flexibility for this position, chronic hip flexor tightness resulted from my hip muscles being unable to relax and contract. Even with my tri-position, I used to experience burning through my low back and, I expect, this was hip mobility related.
c -- your home terrain and riding buddies are important considerations for geometry. While you might covet a tri-specific bike, this type of frame could prove sub-optimal if you lived in hilly terrain and enjoyed group riding. Tri-specific bikes (by this I mean steep geometry) climb poorly relative to road bikes and don't handle as well. If you've spent your entire riding career on a steep set-up then you'll be amazed at the difference. Likewise, if you are used to a road position then show caution when you first hop on a steep frame.
d -- you need to be both lean and flexible to pull off a comfortable "road" TT position. If you are soft around the middle or inflexible then you'll be best served with a steep, more tri-specific position.
e -- if stability, safety and comfort are equal then favour superior power over aerodynamics.
f -- spend a lot of time on your race bike/set-up in the seven weeks leading into your goal race. Once your position is set, resist the urge to fine-tune for race day -- the classic change that IM athletes make is a significant drop in aerobar height for race day. Do not change your bar height for race day! If you think that you can tolerate a lower position then use it for two months before race day.
There are exceptions to every rule -- these are my thoughts as at April 2003!
Cheers,
gordo
Bike Fit Notes
Bruce Baxter, TriNZ High Performance Conference
March 2003
Bruce is a foot doc that has a lot of experience working with Olympic and Elite cyclists/runners/triathletes. He’s based in Christchurch and is Gordo’s podiatrist.
These are his opinions – not facts – Bruce makes the point that his views merely represent a starting point for coaches and athletes.
A forward position is sub-optimal for power production.
Position + Fitness = Power + Endurance
The starting point for a bike fit exercises is a review of an athlete’s muscle balance assessment (the MBA is a report done for all elite NZ athletes – gordo has been through the process, very interesting).
Start with the foot/shoe.
• The shoe needs to fit snuggly, no movement. When sizing juniors, you compromise safety when you purchase shoes that they will grow into.
• The heel counter must be rigid and there should be NO movement through the heel – this is very important for biomechanical safety. A locked heel assists in the prevention of pronation.
• The sole should be completely rigid. Bruce likes the shoe to fit to the toe – GB Note – I know that some athletes find this set-up to be too restrictive and not comfortable – however, Bruce and my other bike fit guy are adamant that this is optimal. Female riders, particularly, should purchase bike shoes at the end of the day when their feet are likely to be largest.
• Shoes should have a removable liner – as the direction of force is down and total stability is desirable, Bruce is a believer in form orthotics to enable an even weight distribution.
• Bruce uses a dipped knee test, to determine if an athlete is likely to benefit from a form orthotic. Stand on one leg in bare feet, do a single leg squat, if knee collapses inwards then a form orthotic will assist with stability. As well, the results of this test will tell you about the risk of going to a fixed cleat system. Bruce is a big believer in the benefits of fixed cleats – although – they haven’t been able to get me fixed yet!
Cleat position – old school method is to bisect the head of the first metatarsal – Bruce’s preferred method is to bisect the whole of the forefoot – with most people this results in alignment about 5-6mm behind the ball of the foot. Athletes with calf or Achilles tendon pain should always check cleat position. A forward cleat position places additional stress and fatigue on the calf and AT.
In triathletes, poor bike position can predispose an athlete to running injuries. A common example would be the forward cleat position fatiguing the calves/ATs and tendonitis being manifested during run training.
Some fit tips:
• While watching one legged pedaling – gaps in the top of the cycle can indicate seat too low, toe pointing can indicate seat too high
• ITB issues and/or pelvis rocking – seat too high
• Patellar Femoral Syndrome – seat likely too low
• Front of knee should align with the middle of the first metatarsal joint at the forward phase of the stroke.
• On the bars, shoulder blades should be back and elbows should be supporting the upper body. If bars and too far forward then athlete will shrug and compress neck when looking forward.
Saddle Tips
• The most important issue with the saddle is to have the pelvis as stable as possible.
• The saddle should provide even pressure across the three points of contact (sitting bones and forward bone).
• Cut-outs create saddle flex and reduce stability – they solve the “problem” of comfort but can create biomechanical issues and loss of power.
• Women are reluctant to discuss saddle fit issues with their bike fit guy – as a result, they often end up with sub-optimal position.