It’s awesome to see Ventum growing. I wonder how many other brands will release non traditional frames

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Expensive novelty bikes for the dentists to own, pose outside cafes and post on social media.

No tangible real world benefits over a traditional double diamond design.

There will always be a small market for this type of product, just like there is for ceramic bearings, over-sized pulleys and anything else sold by ceramic speed.

http://reapbikes.com

New beam design TT/tri bikes, based out of UK.

This is probably the bike in the count:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...the_Reaper_6599.html

I'm definitely not a dentist, but I do own a Ventum. I know the wind tunnel data showed the aerodynamics of it (ok, not class leading, but also not that bad). To me, there's two major benefits. First, it's an extremely comfortable bike. I used to ride a BMC TM01 (moved all the components over to the Ventum so same stuff, only the frame is the difference) and I always felt a bit beat up after a hard ride (interval training or racing), with the Ventum, I feel just fine and fresh, ready to run. The second major benefit is how stable it is in cross winds. With the BMC I had to sit up to control the bike when it got really windy (especially if it was gusty), but with the Ventum, I rarely have to do that. I may not have gained much in terms of straight line aerodynamics, but I know I can ride harder and I can stay in aero longer, so at the end of the day, I am faster.

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"Suddenly the thought struck me. My floor is someone elses ceiling"-Nils Ferlin

Not class leading with the standard fork and open mold front end.

With the right bar on there, things change pretty significantly at most angles of attack.

Yes - Ventum & Dimond opened the door here and their numbers keep growing.

It says something when a brand like Cervelo, launches a non-UCI frame to put into the category. However, if you know Cervelo's history and roots, the P5X is really a bit of a distant echo from the original bike the Cervelo founders Vroomen and White designed - the Barrachi!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Novelty is where innovation happens. "Cycling" -desperately- needs innovation. Luckily or rules allow for it. And I suppose its good for sales too.

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TEAM HONEY BADGER

I wouldn't agree with the "no tangible real world benefits" part. I finally got around to building my Omni a few weeks ago and I've ridden it maybe half a dozen times since. It really shines in cross winds. I'm not sure how one would go about testing that but, IMO the difference in handling between my Speed Concept with an Jet 6+ front Jet+ disc rear and the Omni with the same wheels was like the difference between my Speed Concept with Aeolus 7s front and rear and the Jet 6+ front and Jet+ disc rear.

These frames aren't innovative, just a re-hash of 1990s designs.

Sadly, their price point is not really much different than the top bikes from Felt, Trek, etc etc.

As for novelty, well, define novelty. I currently own a trek speed concept 9. I've had a few test rides on a Dimond Brilliant, and it is the nicest riding/feeling bike I've ever been on.

After my whole drama here with the secondhand Dimond thread and my experience with their service which was subsequently followed by Jimmy Seear reaching out to me and offering to get me on one of his bikes, I’m thrilled to see that Ventum has matched and passed Dimond’s numbers. Not only does the bike ride magnificently, Ventum’s customer service is second to none and I see great things for the brand.

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Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”

Ride a Ventum for a while and you won’t call it a novelty. I’m just a poor pool guy and I adore the experience I have when riding and racing it. The comfort and handling are better than any traditional double triangle TT bikes I’ve ridden. It’s agile and stiff, yet very stable. It soaks up the road, while being the only TT bike I’ve ever ridden where I can confidently ride with no hands.

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Salton Sea Triathlon Club
“I swim to get to the bike. I run because nobody gives a shit about aquabike.”

I definitely enjoyed my 1 riding experience with the Ventum. I think Dimonds are crap. The P5x is a nice bike, but I'll never buy one (b/c I can't afford it). The Andean is ok. The Reap looks like it'll have major issues around the seat post. The Omni is something I'll also never buy.

The only one in there I think I'd buy if I was in the market for an $8000+ bike would be the P5x, however.

A reliable manufacturer with a proven history of quality control and post-purchase support. It's not really much faster than a 'regular' bike but it does add functionality that makes it more 'worth it.'

I can't afford a Ventum or a P5X, but I do think that these two bikes (plus the TriRig Omni) are fast designs. Independent testing shows the Dimond to not be as fast. But just because they are expensive doesn't make them dentist bikes. Fast athletes are looking for fast bikes. Athletes like me for example may get a super bike once every ten years rather than getting a mid-tier bike every 3-6 years.

I do think bikes 10 years from now may move away from the double diamond. I also think today's internally cabled double diamond bikes will not be antiquated however. The reason why is I think the frame per $ spent is not the best bang for your buck if you want to improve speed/aerodynamics. The place to improve aerodynamics has to do with rider position and peripheral envelope so things like your helmet, pedals, shoes and front end bar system are just as important as your frame. I personally look at frame purchase not so much on aerodynamics, which is very important, but on how future proofed it is so I can add to it as needed with new innovation while keeping the same frame.

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2018 Races: IM Santa Rosa, Vineman Monte Rio, Lake Tahoe 70.3

They are just dick measuring tools for when you show up at transition. Look at my $15,000 bike. I also find it funny they have these attached to small wracks on the back of their civic.

You want to impress me, show up in an Aston Martin with an under $3000 bike, podium finish, kiss your bikini model girlfriend, rip a line of blow off the 2nd place guys wife's chest, smack her butt, shotgun a Busch Light like you are still a poor college kid, then throw the dueces and peace out.


^ we can all have dreams cant we?

it’s great we’re seeing new/different/rehash bike designs out there, that those companies are doing well and being (positively) discussed. I think for the many reasons above (and on other threads) these types of designs at create discussions and ‘what if’ ideas that other bike manufactures through into some of their bikes that many benefit from. Plus, there is a whole.... ‘dang that just looks cool’ benefit.

I’m no dentist and I love my Dimond. Hopefully it will grace the racks on the pier in a few years.

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________________________________________________________
Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg

A little off topic here, but all the talk about dentists reminded me of this classic from The Onion....

https://www.theonion.com/...onvention-1819565466

Surprised so few P5X. Considering a good number of those are sponsored, that's not many.

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'It never gets easier, you just get crazier.'

Thats quite an Imagination. But I'm into it.

#2018goals

What's old is new again. I still remember the Zipp 2001. A guy in my club had one in the early/mid-90s. I thought it was the coolest thing on two wheels. I still want one. [starts searching eBay while wife sleeps...]

Just because things look vaguely the same doesn't mean they are. Di2 is more than a "re-hash" of Mavic Zap.

Expensive novelty bikes for the dentists to own, pose outside cafes and post on social media.

No tangible real world benefits over a traditional double diamond design.

There will always be a small market for this type of product, just like there is for ceramic bearings, over-sized pulleys and anything else sold by ceramic speed.[/quote]
I suggest you ride one before you make claims with no substance. I have owned two Dimonds now and the first time I rode the Brilliant I knew I would never be able to go back to standard bike. Although the bike feels stiff and handles like a normal tt bike the beam has some dampening and dampens some of the harshness out of the road. That alone won me over and I figure must help over an Ironman distance race when getting off to run. The new Marquise with inbuilt bento box, spare storage compartment and ability to run a bladder in the frame like a shiv another plus for me. That's without even mentioning the poser novelty.

After reading this compelling review full of evidenced based benefits why would anyone buy any bike other than a Dimond?

You must now feel great letting everyone know that you've bought not one but two Dimonds.

So when you rack one in transition you've got another one to ride to the cafe: every base covered.

Well done.

Did someone mention dick waving tool?

Will be interesting to see what happens with the ITU/Ironman partnership and the "harmonized" rulebook for long distance tri that is supposed to be out for next year (we'll see in a few months I guess, since updated rules for the year are usually released around December). As it stands at the moment, Dimond's frames are not ITU legal. The Ventum was the first non-traditional frame on the approved list, and has since been joined by the P5X, the Reap and most recently the TriRig Omni. Falco is also not legal, and likely never will be as I believe they have gone belly up (I still do see a few of their frames at the odd race)... If the non-traditional frame rule stays as is (I suspect it will), and is adopted as part of this harmonized rule set, companies like Dimond will need to scramble to get their frames approved, or will see a big dent in their numbers... not to mention, that some pros could end up in a sticky spot, having sponsorship from a bike brand that they can't legally ride (especially for those looking to do some early 2018 IM races to try and bank up lots of KPR points, while the manufacturers scramble to get their frames tested and approved)...

I’ll never make Kona, shit i’ll Never be FOP for a local little tri, but my next bike will be a Ventum. I mentioned earlier that I was interested in one, and Jimmy reached out to me about it. Now, i’m Not ready to throw around cash just yet (nor back then) but it isn’t too far off in the future. That kind of personal touch was good enough for me to go with them.

Lol so you're poor and can't afford a cool bike. That's got to suck dude!!!

So you got that d-waving going...thanks for letting us know.

Lol so you own a Dimond which tests about as fast as a Shiv, is not that great looking, and their Kona count was beaten by Ventum in only 1 year. That’s got to suck dude!!!

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

So...Dimond is becoming more rare...making them more valuable....like a collector’s item. [pink!!]

Yep my life sucks :( Thanks for pointing that out for me...

I know every parent thinks their child is beautiful...but the truth is, there are a lot of ugly kids in the world.

And a lot of ugly bikes.

But I'm glad this one makes you happy.

I know every parent thinks their child is beautiful...but the truth is, there are a lot of ugly kids in the world.

And a lot of ugly bikes.

But I'm glad this one makes you happy.[/quote]
What started out me trying to tell someone who attacked everyone on this post that had or like a non traditional bike to ride one before passing judgement quickly escalated into some severe trolling that was quite entertaining I must admit. At the end of the day I do love my bike especially how it rides but also looks compared to a traditional frame and I just wanted to share that. People are welcome to feel otherwise but I think you will find everyone who has one is happy with their non traditional bike that's all...

I’m just messing with ya. I’m not a Dimond fan but I think non traditional bikes look awesome and we will see a lot more of them to come.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

That bike says a lot about the owner.... personally unless it guaranteed me a sub 5 hr IM bike split you couldn’t pay me to be caught on that thing

Looks fast? Well it doesn't guarantee but has been known to go well under...

I ride a P5, close to a 5 hour bike split...getting there. Only a few experiences on a non-traditional frame, namely ventum.

I didn't mind the ride on it, but wasn't wildly over the moon either. They make a point about the center of gravity being lower due to the hydration, but I only carry two 600ml bottles (bta and behind the saddle) for IM, so I'm not sure this really makes a difference to me. I also can't get behind the idea of buying a bike from a new brand that costs the same as its well-established competitors that have demonstrated their commitment to supporting athletes and owners over a number of years.

What I don't understand (and that does not mean I'm saying it isn't true) are the claims that these bikes are better in crosswinds.

If you are riding a disc and a deep front, then for sure there is more wheel exposed to the wind than frame. Even with 808s front and back, I imagine the wheels have more impact...especially the front. Can someone point to the data or theory that explains why these bikes are better in cross winds than a well-designed traditional frame such as a P5 and its peers?

I don't know about any claims but in my opinion the only place I have ever noticed severe cross winds that I think may make a difference from other bikes is the descent from Hawi in Kona. The Thursday the week before the race this year the wind was horrendous and I was riding a 60 front and 90 rear and was having an easier time than my friends on a BMC and a Canyon similar wheels but that was in extreme cross winds. One of the guys sister got blown off her bike twice. I can't comment on the ride quality of the Ventum but have chatted to a rider I think second fastest AG at Kona this year who went from a Dimond to a Ventum and is back on a Dimond. To me the Dimond ride quality is handling just like a standard frame bike cornering etc but the beam takes some harshness out the road. My first ride on one I was looking for rough sections to ride over as I couldn't believe how much nicer the ride was.

I wish I still had my Hotta - that was a beautiful bike.

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'to give anything less than the best is to sacrifice the gift'...Pre

When I saw the first spy shots of the P5X, I was hoping that they would bring the Barrachi name back. Both bikes have some similar features.

I rode the descent on that same Thursday before the race in the afternoon and during the race. I had 808s front and back and really didn't have any drama on the bike. I'm 180cm, 75kg and was riding at 220NP, not super heavy or super light, and not super powerful blasting through the wind. If the Dimond beam is damping the ride enough to make it noticeable, it is also sapping power. That said, carbon lay-up and design aspects unrelated to a beam vs traditional frame can offer better ride qualities that damp vibration..which could be the case with Dimond. (e.g. damping vibration without flex in the beam)

Sorry it was the Thursday the week prior to race week. The week leading into the race didn't have winds anywhere close to that day. I had never seen or ridden it that bad. My friend posted holding his bike and having it blown horizontal. As I said it was extreme. I understand there may be some loss of power but it isn't noticeable but I just find it more enjoyable to ride especially over an Ironman distance.

I still think the wheels will produce more side forces than the frame....I'm going to look into this.

Living in Taiwan has its advantages...a little birdy has told me I'm in line for a very cool new tri bike that is coming out in a month or two. Already has a UCI sibling...thus traditional frame...but sexy sexy sexy!

My wife was there for a month before the race and was out that Thursday. There was actually a group of riders swept off the QK that day somewhere between the Mauna Lani access and the Hapuna Beach access. All suffered broken bones:( I know one of the group was a female podium finisher in 2016. The winds kicked up again on Monday following the race. Very bad along the Kohala Coast, but pretty much higher than normal all across the island.

You aren't kidding about the winds on Monday. If race day had been anywhere close to those conditions, it would have been a very different race.

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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Yeah...Monday really would have been a sufferfest of epic proportions!