Your goal is 1:24/100m. You are currently around 1:40. It's a big stretch to make over a winter, but if you put in the work, it's achievable. Putting in the work probably looks like 15-20K/week (at the very minimum), with a team and a coach.

Thanks for the advice!

My coach tells me that it's all about technique and that you don't need to swim that much.
But since i haven't improved at all the last few years i will do some extra sessions and try to do at least 20k a week, hopefully that will do the job!

Technique is key. I surf A LOT so the cardio and movement is second nature - but I was a slow swimmer. Would get super winded. Then got taught technique and it was a whole new world.

Also think about some swimmers on college teams you have seen. Hefty guys or girls but they will blow you away in the water. Technique my friend. Learn it and love it.




Also avoid the beer and pizza :-( haha

I made a similar improvement over the past year down from the low 1:40's to the high 1:20's. I'm 63 and had been an age group swimmer in my youth, but had been kind of sloughing along with my training until I decided to get serious again about my swimming a couple of years ago. I got there by:

1. Bumped up my yardage from 200K per year to 500K. 5-6 days per week/12-15K per week.
2. Started swimming full-time with a coached Masters team, rather than on my own.
3. Worked hard on my technique initially, so I could train harder/longer without reinforcing bad habits.
4. Lots of 50's and 100's on tight intervals.
5. Lots of kick sets. Lots of dolphin kicking to build core strength.
6. Swim-specific dryland strength training.
7. Entered some Masters swim meets to work on swimming fast.

Bottom line is that I started training more like a swimmer than a "typical" triathlete, just banging out long interval sets.
I'd also mention that by focusing on my technique initially, I was able to avoid any injury issues when bumping up my training volume. In fact, I have fewer issues now than I did a couple of years ago.


Mark

Get some video of your stroke, especially underwater. Technique is key, but you need to know what to work on.

"My coach tells me that it's all about technique and that you don't need to swim that much."

it's about technique AND you DO need to swim that much. based simply on what i'm hearing secondhand from you, your coach is not equipped to take you from where you are to where you want to be. but before i rag on your coach, it depends on what is meant by not needing to "swim that much."

to make the gains you want to make, in 6 months, you're looking at 3 out 4 of your weeks each month of 14,000m/15,000yd, plus or minus, and then maybe with a couple/few 20,000 yard weeks thrown in there. short of that you're not going to get there.

when i really decided enough was enough, and this goes back 25 or 27 years, i was swimming a 1000 yard time trial in about 13:45. after 8 months of taking myself to the woodshed i got it down to 12:25. i improved 1:20 over 1000yd in that time but it was worth more than just the 1:20 for 1000 yards. it meant i could draft off a faster pack, which really meant more like 2 minutes for 1000 yards and about 3 minutes over 1.5km. it meant coming out in 20min instead of 23min. now i was finally ready to make some headway in the bike and run.

that's the sort of thing i think you want to achieve. i don't see that happening for you unless you commit yourself to that sort of volume. PLUS the technique work.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

We're on the same boat. I'm swimming around 1:45/100yd race pace on a 500m swim, and I want to drop down to 1:30/100yd over the next 6 months. Following STers advice, and my coach's, I'm swimming 5/6 times a week, with an average of 2100-2300 yd per session for now, as I don't want to over do it and fudge up the whole plan. All these sessions are done in Masters. We'll see if it works.

Thanks for the tips!


i was told for years i should just focus on drills and technique. That didn't result in significant improvements so i almost started thinking that this was it, that i reached my limit and just didn't have the ''talent'' to become faster. It's really motivating to reed these stories of big swimming gains due to pure hard work.

I will start swimming at least 5-6 days a week, work hard on my technique and hopefully that will be enough to make the team next year!

Swimming is half technique but also half swim-specific muscular strength and muscular endurance. There's a reason why virtually all swimmers have the trademark "V shape" espec when looked at from the back. The so-called "hefty" swimmers have a good bit of muscle below that surface fat, and it is specifically conditioned to swimming, and that's why the 200+ lb swimmers are lapping the 140-150-lb tri geeks. Some extra weight does not impede a swimmer near as much as a runner.

Back to your original question, my first question is are you absolutely certain you are swimming in a meters pool, not a yards pool. I say this b/c many, many tri geeks have no concept of the difference, and the 25 yd vs 25 m is only a roughly 10% difference. Also, 500 yd is a standard yards racing distance whereas the meters equivalent is 400m. So, is your pool 25yd (scy), 25m (scm), or 50m (lcm)??? This question is also important b/c there's a big diff from between going from 8:20 to 7:00 for 500 yd on a 25yd pool vs 500m in a 50m pool. If we look at in terms of the AR for 500 scy vs the WR for 400 lcm, the 500 record is 4:08.5 vs 3:40.1 for 400 lcm. If there were a WR for 500 lcm, it would be around 4:37 or thereabouts, vs 4:08 for 500 scy. So, getting down to 7:00 for 500 lcm implies going 7.00/4.62 = 1.515 ==> about 51.5% slower than the WR. Going 7:00 for 50 scy implies going 7.00/4.14 = 1.691 ==> 69.1% slower than the AR. Thus your 7:00 500 lcm is considerably faster than your 7:00 500 scy. THIS is why I ask about your pool length. Sorry for the long explain but lots of tri peeps just don't understand these things. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I am working on my swim this winter as well. Tired of swimming 34:XX in 70.3 and losing 3-5 minutes to the top 10. Currently under the watchful eye of my masters coach I am only doing stroke work for the next few months. For me that is a lot of snorkel work and buoy at my ankles. This is the first winter I just didn't throw "volume" at the problem (quotes because that is by my historical volume standard), so excited to see how this change impacts race speed.

Thanks for the long reply!

I'm pretty sure ;)
I live in Holland, here we don't use yards at all.
All pools are either 25m or 50m long, i do most of my swims in a 25m pool.

I definetely need to improve my technique, It's hard to ditch the bad habits though (slow stroke rate/ not a lot of shoulder rotation).

If it were me- I would try to do 6 practice a week with an age group swim team.

If that doesn't work I would do the same thing but with a masters swim team that has ex-age group swimmers and a swim couch.

I would avoid anyone who offers "triathlon specific swim training".

You are young enough to become a "real swimmer".

Forget about swimming 500 m in 6:30.
Focus on swimming 100 scm in 62.

Once you can do that the 6:00 500m will come easy.

I train 3 times a week with a tri club where I get some technique based feedback as well.
In addition to those swim sessions I am going to join a masters group 2 times a week.

I'm being forced to join the masters group. During my first practice last week I was asked if I could join their age group team but they just laughed a bit and told me ''you're probably to slow''.
I think I''ll ask once more if I can join the age group team because their training just seems so much more serious.
The masters group that I joined doesn't even get any technical feedback (the coaches are focusing on the age group team at that point, masters and age groupers swim at the same time).

wow those are fast times! However, I think those times are well out of my reach.. I have an athletic body type suited to swimming but I think I lack the talent or ''feel'' for the water to reach a time like that.
I am really hungry though, I really want to put in the work so hopefully that will lead to good times. I would already be super content if i get anywhere close to 7 minutes!

One more question though, Isn't there a big change that I overtrain when I start swimming 6 times a week?

Over-training is a concern for me.

That's why the only hard swimming I do is focussed on sprinting.

If I were you I would train like a swimming sprinter in the mornings. And train like a triathlete in the afternoons and on the weekends.

Don't try to push the distance swin sets. Perfect your kick, your turns, your stroke. And get some speed.
Grant Hackett and Sun Yang (greatest distance swimmers ever) could both break 50 for 100 SCM.

Swim skills learnt early can last a lifetime. Strength and fitness come and go,

Yup this. I'm probably repeating what most have said, but technique is so important. I have not seen a slow swimmer under 40 with good technique. You can get quick by swimming lots and forgoing any work on your technique, but you will have to put in a lot of hours (sacrificing riding and running) and you run the very real risk of picking up injuries such as swimmers shoulder, largely attributable to poor technique. Your stroke doesn't need to be flawless, but at 1.40/100m I'm guessing there are some fundamental issues with your stroke that need sorting out. A video analysis session with someone like Swimsmooth would be very good at identifying these flaws and providing you with drills to fix them up. I did a session with them a while ago and it helped enormously, I went from 1.30/100m to 1.25/100 in a short space of time and can now do 100s on 1.15 (leaving on the 1.30). What I found that helped, was focussing largely on 100s, I had lots of stuff to work on, body position, kick, stroke rate, body rotation, high elbow etc etc and I found doing 100s a good way of determining my progress i.e what is working, what isn't. Some 100s I would have a higher stroke rate, see how my times were, others really rotating or almost over extending my arms, kicking like mad one 100, barely kicking the next, hitting my tumble turns hard, breathing every 2, every 3 or every 4, trying lots of different things and seeing how times and fatigue varied.

If you can't get a video analysis done, see if you can someone to film you, preferably underwater and above water and post it up here.

I don't see a big issue with that kind of drop. Based on your description of how you train and your coach's approach, you could probably drop half that time in 3-4 weeks.

Here's a couple questions that would give me a better idea of how much time you'd need to devote to getting a bigger gain in the swim:

Did you compete in any sports growing up? If yes, what sports?
How tall are you? (Metrics is fine)
How much do you weigh?
What do run a 5k/10k in at end of a Tri?
How long have you been swimming?
How many open water swims/triathlons have you competed in over the last 4 years?

Yes, it's about technique, but it's also very much about the training. You can't separate those two components out from one another. They are linked and build off one another.

Let me know if you have any questions and I look forward to your responses.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

OK, glad you're sure, and since you're in Europe I believe you completely. :) So, you're currently going 8:20 for 500m, and you want to get down to 7:00, vs an estimated WR of about 4:28. 7.00/4.47 = 1.566 ==> 56.6% over the estimated WR. If we take the 1500m run as a comparable event (WR 3:26.0), then you'd need to run 1.566*3.43 = 5:22 for 1500m. For American readers, that would be 1.566*3.722 = 5:50 based on WR of 3:43.3 (run by same guy who set 1500m WR.)

My point of all this is that, if you can run the times above, then you should in theory be able to swim roughly equivalent times, given equal abilities in both sports and equal effort put into each. Some people can do this but many can not, butt of course only way to find out is to take your swimming seriously, as you are starting to do. In any case, as dirtymangos pointed out, at 22 you're young enough to become a real swimmer. Perhaps after you improve a bit with the master's group, they'll let you move into the AG team. I swam with an AG team for about a month a few summers ago, and it was awesome. You're totally correct that the kids are a lot more serious about their swimming than are most of the adults, e.g., no one ever complains that a given set is "too hard". Anyway, I think you've got a good shot at improving a lot. Keep us posted on your progress. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

"I'm being forced to join the masters group."

you are lucky you have a masters group to join.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hoi! Ik sprek een beetje nederlands. Wat doe je nu in het zwembod? (give us some typical workouts...)

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

do you do flip turns?

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Most people don't realise that guys doing 100m races often have a decent amount of fitness also. If you are undertrained, you can still fade quite badly in a 100 race. Swimming is kindof a weird sport in that elite sprint swimmers are often swimming much more distance than your typical triathlete, even your typical elite age group triathlete and maybe even some of the itu guys...

You're getting some decent feedback. Do not limit yourself. You're probably correct that you'll never reach the elite levels, but you can hack your way to becoming a fast swimmer. The talent is what separates you from a national team, not from reaching 6-7 min/500. You'll probably get there if you put in the work.

There is a chance of overtraining at 6/wk, but only if you don't work into it. It will take a little time to figure this out, so focus on making the practices at first, then work out how far you can push it. You'll feel crappy for 2-4 weeks. Stick with it. Lots of kids swim this much (and more), and they're fine. I would consider running 6-7/wk harder on you, and even I can do that (slow/old). Good luck -J

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Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne

Goedzo, dus we kunnen Nederlands praten...?;)

Yes i do flip turns, or at least something that looks like a flip turn.

A typical swim session with the masters groep would be something like this:

Warmup:

1000m freestyle 1:55/100 (no break just a 1k non stop warmup)

Main set:

2x250 in 1:30-1:35/100 pace
5x100 in 1:25-1:30/100 pace
10x50 in 38 sec leaving every 1:15

At the triathlon club we do some more technique focused training as well but when i train with the masters group at the swim club there is no real focus on technique or technical feedback.
For that reason I e-mailed the head coach of the swim cliub yesterday and he told me i can join the age group team from next week on.
I'm a bit scared that I'll over do it when i start training with people that are that much faster but we will see.

Thanks for the reply, that would be awesome in such a short period of time!

To answer your questions:

1) I did a lot of bmx racing when I was a kid but I didn't really do any endurance based sports.
2) I'm 1.86M so 6 feet something if I guess correctly :P
3) 73 kg
4) in sprint tri's I run low 18s/high 17s (I run on average a little under 20 miles per week)
5) 4.5 years after 8 months I got to 8:35/500, but after that I haven't improved much. it should be noted though that I didn't train much in 2014-2015 due to injuries and being overtrained.
6) I think about 20 but I'm not completely sure.

I definitely want to put in the work, I'm just a bit scared that I get overtrained again.
Especially since I don't want to lose all my running fitness either.

To get you better in swimming won't be that tough at all, especially considering your goals for the swim are fairly modest for your athletic ability and age.

I wouldn't worry about overtraining in the swim. The bike and run present the biggest potential for overtraining in triathlon. If you train correctly in the swim, you won't lose any run fitness and in my experience you'll get faster in the run.

You can check out the blog I wrote about the pro swim camp I've done for the last two years at http://www.magnoliamasters.com/swim-efficiency. I wrote about everything we tried to accomplish while the pros were here for 3 weeks. I included all of the workouts we did, too. Also, I just started a weekly newsletter that will have 3 free workouts and some helpful training tips.

If you have any other questions, please let me know.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I started swimming this year. I watched videos on technique and have tried to implement it.

I quickly got to 25:00 for a 1500 meter time trial. Then I got stuck there for 3 months. That was swimming 2-3 times a week. Upped it to 20k yards a week for 8 weeks and dropped to 23:00. Still improving too.

Technique matters. Volume matters. Intensity matters.

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https://markmcdermott.substack.com

I have a similar question, but am not looking to get that fast. I'm a terrible swimmer (average 2min/100) and also have two surgically repaired shoulders. So swimming more than 9k per week is pretty much out of the question. I'd like to get down to about 1:45s and my biggest issues are that I have zero kick and my body position isn't great. I kick with fins quite a bit, but never translates to my swim. My ankles don't flex well at all, so with stiff legs, my butt sinks. Any suggestions aside from a ton of miles?
thanks

Kind of a spin off, but what's the general recommendation for increasing swim yardage. With running I'll follow the 10% rule (for the long run and weekly milage). What's the best way to ramp up swim distance (assuming decent form) without over doing it?

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Matt

All depends on what you are looking to do. I am usually training triathletes on half the volume of the majority of the coaches in the triathlon community.

I would say that it all depends on the athlete, their goals, any previous injuries, age, technique, etc...

Sorry, I can't be more specific. If you want a generalization then a 10% rule for swimming works ok too.

Hope this helps,

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Next week i will start joining the age group team of i my swimclub.
So basically i should ask the coach if i can gradually increase my training time with time? i can't just hop in and join them 5-6 times a week because of a risk of overtraining and injuries?

by and large frequency is a good thing as long as you dont overstretch yourself too often.
(overtraining is frequnecy intensity, not enough rest , stress , nutrition etc its not just one factor)
Rahter than being worried swimmg 5-6 times a week i would just make sure that when your your interval times drop signifianctly not to bury yourself
ie you need more rest during the session , dont be afraid to sit out intervals and be honest to yourself when your body is tired .

Hi Hendriks,

I'm similar height to you but am 20 years older and about 25 kilos heavier....

I am coming towards the end of a swim focus month. Since Sep 21 I've swum everyday (bar 2) in a 25 metre pool, between two and three KM. All solo sessions, just my fat arse and a pace clock.

I've done (and continue to do) loads of junk miles (I pretend they're warm up and warm down) but plenty of 10x100, 4x200, a few 50 sprints if I can be arsed.

I try to hold 1:27 on 2:00 or 1:30 on 1:45 if I am feeling brave. My best 50 time is :36.

My 500 SCM free time has come down from 8:40 to 7:35 in that time and continues to drop. Open turns because a) my flip turns are shit, and b) I love air.

I would suggest your 7:00 goal is gettable if my current experience is anything to go by. Also you're not an arthritic fat opera singer with a penchant for beer like me.

Cheers!

Simon

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

Why do you americans deal with meters? If you only would deal with yards you wouldn' t have those problems. We europeans ONLY deal with meters, we do not even know what a yard is, or that they exist. (You do not have to response seriously on my silly remark, the thought only came to me).

Another thing (sorry, at least not 100% ontopic), I wondered in the city where I live (Munich, Germany) about different times I swam in different 50m lappools. One day, I started taking a tape measure and actually measured the pools. (The pool attendents looked as if I did something suspiciously). Anyway, one pool measured 48,9 m and another one 49,8 m. So don't be certain if a pool is said to be 50y or 50m.

Hahaha, thanks for the great comment and congratz on the impressive improvement!
I'ts really motivating to read stories like that, especially since i started thinking i just didn't have what it takes to become a decent swimmer.
I'll just work hard over the winter, get a video analysis, work on technique and hopefully that will lead to similar improvements!

Glad it was of use, I'm such an awful swimmer I feel a fraud commenting on swimming threads, but as our circumstances/times are a bit similar I hoped it might help.

One other thing: I have ramped up my distance/session from 2km to 3km over the month without any pain or soreness, which I am pleased with.

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

I have seen lots of people make even greater improvements in that amount of time. Of course these were all people that joined the high school swim team, so they were concentrating soley on swimming. People would join the team with no competitive swim experience, swimming slower than 1:45 per 100y, but the by the end of the season all were pretty close to 1:10 and a few under 1:00. This was over 3 months of the season. Also this is with very little technique work and very little technique guidance from the coach, mostly just lots of yards swimming. Technique coaching was the coach every once in awhile stopping you after a set to give you one thing to work on. You simply can not handle that many things to work on at once. And the most important changes to technique are not conscious changes, but unconscious ones you make. Looking at your times, your technique probably has not fundamental flaws, your changes are going to pretty small.

Swim 6 days a week with a team and this will mean putting your run and bike fitness on hold. Do not be concerned with losing a bit of fitness for both, because you will get that fitness back pretty quickly.

Actually, you are absolutely right in the whole yards vs meters thing but unfortunately Americans are so used to yards that I doubt that it will change in our lifetimes; maybe in 200-300 yrs, but not in the 21st century. Also, regarding the length of pools, I've done the same on the pools I swim in, not to mention the tracks I run on. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

The Brits may not be part of the EU for much longer, but they will still be part of Europe ...

Sounds good. Yes, I would go relatively easy the first week. Swim every practice, but maybe every other practice get out after the first 30-40 minutes. See how your shoulders do. Also, if you've never done a 2 hour practice before then make sure you build up to it. Listen to your body, be conservative and patient.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

True. They also drive instead of on the right side on the wrong... eh.... left side.
I have a lot of english collegues and when it comes to body weight (e.g. 5 stones) I always wonder how they can say that since that should be dependent which stones you take ???

Nice picture you have there. I wonder why there are separate displays for "one foot" and for "two feet". Maybe because "two feet" is a separate unit and "two feet" is different from two times "one foot"???? I would'nt be surprised.

It could be worse, we could still use rods, chains and furlongs.....well, those of us who aren't horse racing commentators.

Hendricks, I did a test 500m (scm, open turns) today. 7'22". That's on 28 days training out of the last 31, and is the best I've done.
Overall an improvement of 16.5 seconds / 100m in a month (test 500m in September was 8'45")
I would repeat that your goal of 7'00" for 500m is very doable.

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

zwemmen met kinderen is goed; ze zijn SNEL.

you can be a bit less conservative upping the swim time than you would be running. The fact that swimming isn't weight-bearing means you recover faster.

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

Wow that's a big improvement in such a short period of time!
So the fact i haven't improved the last couple of years is likely just due to not swimming enough?
That's really encouraging since i'm planning on swimming a lot in the upcoming months!

intervals, intervals, intervals!

Do not bang out long sets in the pool, longest swim should be 500m and don't do that often

Everything has to be on the clock

Pyramid sets are awesome (50/100/150/200/250/200/150/100/50) - start with 1:15/50 and work towards 1:00
10x50 sets on the 1:00, work towards getting this down
5x100 sets on the 2:00 work on getting this down

Yeah those kids are fast, i'll probably get my ass kicked by a few ten year olds but that's okey.
Exactly but my main concern is overtraining again since i have been overtrained before. i guess i will start with 4 sessions a week and gradually build on that.

Btw, your Dutch is good! (if you didn't just use google translate ofcourse :P)

Yep, intervals, intervals, intervals are what brought me that improvement, modest as it is compared to the 'real' swimmers on here.

Oh, and I am still slower than my 10 yr old son but I can humble my 8 yr old :-)

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�Get the most aero and light bike you can get. With the aero advantage you can be saving minutes and with the weight advantage you can be saving seconds. In a race against the clock both matter.�

BMANX

So the fact i haven't improved the last couple of years is likely just due to not swimming enough?
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This should be blown up and laminated as a banner on the forum's main page, since it applies to most (but not quite all) of us

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

dank je; geen Google!

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maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD

It has been a month or so I was wondering if anyone is making some large swimming gains this off season.

i'm looking to make some offseason gains in the water as well. but i'm far slower than all of you and hoping to get to some of your "before" speeds! ideally, 25-28 minutes for an olympic and 38-40 in a half. i currently swim about 2:10-2:15/100m but i dont know how to flip turn and i dont push off the wall much. so surely i'm faster than this time. however, this was the only response i saw that mentioned strength training. I would think that form is the absolute most important thing you can do, and spending hours in the pool is useless if you're practicing poor form. but how about building some of those muscles? core muscles to keep your butt up.... upper body muscles so you can pull the water harder and turn your arms over more quickly. that's got to be of some help,

I decided to join a masters group, and increased volume. I dropped 20minutes off my swim in AZ compared to my Mont-Tremblant time... I'm sure majority of the improvement is due to swim conditions and better swim start in AZ, but surely I did improve some!

IMMT was my first ironman and did that swim in 1:35. i was actually happy with that given the sudden waves from wind and boats. the way back in was a lot harder than the way out. in 2018, i'd like 1:20!

Pure swimmers almost always do some dry-land training to supplement their swimming, but the ratio of hrs of dry-land to swimming is around 1:5, i/e. they might do 4 hr/wk of dry-land vs 20 hr/wk of swimming. Studies on dry-land strength training have yielded mixed results at best, prob b/c the muscle usage used in swimming is very hard to replicate on land. The Vasa trainer and Stretch Cords are prob the closest you can get to simulating the swim pulling motion on land. IMO, your best way of building swim-specific strength is to do 6 to 10 all-out 25 yd/m sprints at end of most practices.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

good advice, thanks... and fair point. its not so much just replicating the motion, but doing some upper body work as a component of swimming. your ration makes pretty good sense, but i see it for me more of a 2x a week in the pool for an hour and 2x 20 minutes of non stop weights (alternating between exercises to keep heart rate active and not let the muscles cool down), literally, banging out a kettlebell routine while watching tv. at the gym, some lat pull downs, and presses with dumbbells.

I'm on my 8th week after I joined the local Masters swim at the local Y. And I've made some gains I'm happy with.

The last time I did a 400yd TT was back in September, about 2 weeks before I joined the Masters, and I did it in 7:15, which is about 1:44/100yd pace.

Last week on "Distance Day" we had a 400yd warm-up, and I did it in 6:34, which is around 1:38/100yd pace.

In september I was averaging around 1:46-1:48 pace for my 2500 yard swim sessions, and now I'm averaging around 1:31-1:36 depending on the kind of work. So there has been some gain.

I'm swimming 5 times a week, all swims are done at Masters, and I average 12,500 - 13,000 yards / week.

Nice work that is a big improvement. Did it happen gradually or one day you were just going faster? For me it seems every 3-4 weeks I seem to stall out with no gains then all of a sudden I am a couple seconds faster.

It happened on my 4th week. After that I haven't swam under 1:40 no matter the interval. But I have noticed though that for the past 3 weeks I haven't really made any gain. Here is where I stand now when I do reps:

25 scy: 20s
50 syc: 42s
100scy: 1:35
200scy: 3:12
300 scy: 4:52

And a little FYI: I started swimming last November, and I just checked on my strava: One of my first sessions was a 9x100yd swim and my average for the session was 3:24/100yd. Yikes!!!

as you'll note in the article just published on the front page, i'm recommending you guys get yourself an action cam, a tripod, film yourself and stick the video here. it's worked wonders for folks who need to improve their bike fit. i can tell SOMETHING about your bike fit by looking at the numbers off your fit report, or at your stated fit coordinates. more, tho, if i see a video.

i don't really know why you're not making more progress in the water. you are doing everything right: masters, 12,500yd/wk. we need to see film, i'm afraid.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

I think it IS time to film myself one more time. I've done it 3 times in the past year and every time I posted the videos here and got great advise from everyone.

Like I said, I made progress on the 4th week, and I'm coming up on my 8th week and my speed hasn't improved, but I have noticed that I fade less towards the end of the session, whereas before I would drop significantly my pace on the last few 100s.

Also, maybe it's time to move up 1 lane again (I got bumped up on the 3rd week), and I have noticed that people on the 3rd lane are not that much faster than me, but their rest intervals are def shorter than my lane.

On a brighter note, I took my old wetsuit with me to the pool last week, and my 100s wer coming in around 1:25/100yd, made me very happy to see a 1:2x on my average for the session.

where's the most recent video?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Slowman wrote:

where's the most recent video?

I do not have video from me after I joined Masters. I will get one done this week.

If you are interested in following my progress:

This is me last year when I was learning to swim:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eaNub_LtkYA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWDD4yC39F4

And then this is me about 7 months later:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_QMy-nRLmw

And this is me about 3 weeks prior to joining Masters:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lSv03b8tUwU

Things I know I still struggle with (but at least I now can feel them when I'm in the water):

My head is not in a good position, it's a bit too far up, which causes my next problem
My hips still drop, especially when I get tired. I can feel a difference on the first few reps and the last reps.
My kick sucks major ass. This morning during warmup they asked us to "overkick", and I actually went slower than when I just do my normal 4 beat kick.

I will update you on a more recent video as soon as I get it. I will ask the Masters coach if she can record me tomorrow after practice.

thanks. great video. lots to work with. a number of your problems ought to be fairly easily fixed. you're probably getting plenty of "help" however, so i'll keep my opinions to myself. you're doing a lot of the right things.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yeah your body position is poor:

Head looking at floor (neutral position)
Push your chest down (swim downhill)
Push the back of your pelvis up towards the ceiling

Kick:

Point your toes
You need to kick from the hips, so not as much flexion in the knees as you have. You slowed when you overkicked possibly because when you kick you create a lot of drag, check this video and compare to your kick

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK563K_DZP0


Breathing:


You're turning your head too much when you breathe, only one goggle out the water
You're lifting your head as you go to breathe too and it's quite clear in the video as you breathe, your legs drop even further




You also are crossing over with both hands on entry, entry should be in line with your shoulders, crossover will also cause issues with your kicking, possibly forcing a scissor kick as your body tries to balance itself.


The main issue though is your body position, that needs to be what you focus on and learning to kick properly. And by that I don't mean do 10 x 100m kick every session, I mean addressing your kicking flaws and making sure you have an efficient, aerodynamic kick.

Something Laurie Lawrence used to say.
Float to swim, not swim to float.

You need to learn to float dude.
Push off the wall in a streamline and you will find that your feet will float up behind you.
That's the body position you should achieve whilst swimming.
This is achievable even with very little kicking.

Your effort should be reserved for forward propulsion, not simply trying to stay afloat in the pool.
The water WILL hold you up, everything else you do is for propulsion.

Stop trying to hold yourself up with your hand entry, doing so will only submerge your hips.
LET yourself sink down at the front, you only need to turn your head with your natural body rotation to breath, not lift it. You breath in the dip in the water that trails your head.
Everything you lift up will sink the rest of you.
Once you start to get a little power out of the rear third of your stroke you will feel your body lift, at the moment you have very little width in your stroke, you are pretty much just doing one big push back on the water.
Learn to scull.

Relax.

Things are going quite well for me so far. I hardly swam at all from June until September, despite doing a few triathlons. I am an adult onset swimmer and not a very good one at that!
After running the Berlin marathon I decided to try to get my swimming to a better level, so have been going to my Tri clubs coached swim sessions twice a week since, with occasional 3rd swims on Saturdays.

In my first swim back, I was the slowest in the lane and some 200m repeats were slower than 4:15, maybe even as slow as 4:30. Now I seem to be around 3:30 for 200m and one of the fastest in the slow lane, which I am pretty happy with! We did a 1500m TT quite early on in my swim return and I did a 29:12, I am hoping they have another one planned before xmas as I think I might manage a sub28 now.

I wrote a blog post about my swimming a while ago here in case it is of interest to anyone: http://www.richardrae.de/2016/10/07/swimming/ it shows my lack of swimming stupidity pretty well!

Hi everyone,

It has been a few months since I started this thread.
The past few months I swam 5 times a week increasing my training load from 3 hours a week to 6 hours a week with an age group swim team. I also did some dry land training once or twice a week and lots of stretching every evening.

The past month i did some tests:

50m: 33
100m: 1:18
200m: 3:10
400m: 6:31
500m: 8:23

To say I’m disappointed is a big understatement. I worked my but of but I haven't improved AT ALL, nothing.....
I got my stroke filmed some time ago. Turns out I’m a bit of an over glider (54 spm). I worked on improving stroke rate and improving my technique in general but this didn't result in any improvements either.

Right now i just don't know what to do. I am losing the joy in swimming and training in general because i feel like all the work and sacrifices i make don't make any difference at all. For this reason i am considering to quit triathlon and try a different sport instead. Maybe I’ll try to become a decent runner or cyclist. What do you guys think, is this a good choice or should i stick with swimming?

Thanks

1:18 100 and 6:30 400? I would expect the 400 to be about 6:00. You're right you suck. JK
I haven't read the whole thread but maybe you need a good coach or try slowman's guppy challenge. Their are some good drills/workouts in there. Try doing some one arm drills st 54 spm and see how well that works.

yeah the longer the distance, the more my times suck.. ;)
During 25m sprints, i beat people who swim 1:08 100m. When the distance increases they fly past me though.

Thanks for the tip, i'll take a look at those drills for sure!

I am not a swimmer by any stretch but as was previously stated you might give the Guppy Challenge a shot. My problem now seems to be the opposite of yours. My short distance times have not increased much at all but thanks to the challenge my long distance times have come down immensely. I did all 10 weeks swimming five times a week every week but one when I swam 4 and now I am starting it again except using the Tarpon main set instead of the Guppy main set.

Sounds like you're a natural sprinter (swimming wise).

I rarely do 25's and only occasionally do 50's. Most of my swims are heavy with 100's.

If I do a set of 16x100's on 1:40 my average finish time will be 1:21-1:22 for the set. If I do some 200's, like 2-4 of them, my average finish time will be 2:50-2:55. I just did a 1-hour postal swim and my first 500 was at 7:12, at 1000 I was at 14:30 so not a huge drop off from my 100 pace to longer. I did 4200 in 1:01:18 so average pace was 1:28 per 100.

So with your times I see a significant drop off in time with the longer sets.

So is it fitness or does your stroke just all apart after the first few lengths. It is nearly impossible for us to give you tips based on what we have so far. As others have stated earlier, video of stroke, early in swim and later in swim would be helpful.

I am very much NOT a sprinter, my best 50 during workouts is around 0:35-0:36 and that's with a decent flip turn.

I think you're at a point now where a good coach is your best bet.

i dont know how you swim and what you do .
just 2 observations
1 swimming 33 for 50 is certainly a decent long term predictor
2 swim development usually takes time ... maybe you cant swim ... but then you cant also swim 33 for 50 .... most serious coaches would talk aoubt 2-3 year development. some people make improvemnts quickly and some people take a year and then make a jump and honestly you have to give it at least another year .
all I can tell you there is many people who would kill to swim 50 m in in 33 secs and many of those guys would be sub 6 swimmer for 400 meter and they would still not reach 33.
anyway if you want an easy fix than leave it, if you are there for the longterm keep going and in 3-4 years you will likley be proud of yourself .
but giving up now would be a waste of time.

Sometimes, it takes more time. How many yards per week are you putting in? Are you swimming with a group that drives you to swim fast intervals on little to no rest?

yeah i guess i'm more of a sprinter but that's probably due to my body type and my bad technique. I'm build like a ''real swimmer'' so i can power myself through a sprint on pure strength. However, on longer swims my speed fades because of poor technique. I train at an age group swim squad so i have a coach who gives me feedback from time to time. It's hard for me to implement his feedback though. i actually have some footage of my stroke but for some reason the upload function doesn't work..

Thanks for the motivating words.

I know i have the speed, last week i did some 25ms in high 14s with a push of start. The thing is that i've been swimming for 5 years already. I swam those times after about 1-1.5 years of training and haven't improved my times since. The past 4 months i've upped my volume from 3 to 6 hours a week, it hasn't done the trick though.

Thanks for your reply, 4 months ago i quit training at my triathlon club and joined an age group swim team. Since then i increased my volume from 3 hours a week to 6 hours. i don't know how much a yard is but i guess i swim about 14kma week now (5 sessions per week).

It could be also with the increased swim distance per week your body wasn't as "tapered" as it was the last time you swam for time. Maybe with another day of rest there would be some faster times.

Can you give us an idea of what a typical squad session is like including times. It seems to me that it's a fitness issue, rather than a swimming issue. Your times drop off significantly after 100m. You do 1.18/100 then 3.10 for 200, which is 1.35/100m, that's a huge drop in pace. I'm doing 1.13 - 1.15/100m (set times not flat out) and high 2.30s for 200s. Maybe focus on improving your 200m times to start with, so work on your 100s making sure you're only getting 5/7s rest max. If you're coming in low 1.20s, leave on the 1.30 x 10. I almost feel like I'm drowning and panicked for breath on a set like that, with little rest. You nail that set and do it 3 - 4 times a week, your 200m time will easily be sub 3min.

200 gets into a mental / pacing issue also. It's like the 800 in track -- that difficult middle distance.

OP might also try some sets broken down into 4x50 with almost no rest, but where you do each 50 a little faster. Get that pacing figured out. Start slower if you fail the set.

We do a lot of different stuff. Sometimes we do really long swims like 2x1500m easy. Other days we do a lot of sprinting like 3x (4X25 + 300 recovery). An average workout would be something like this:

Warmup is most of the times something like:

200 swim
200 kick (i mostly do 100m since my kick isn't that great)
200 pull
4x 25 with 12.5m underwater dolphin kick
4* 50 sculling
4*50 15m hard 35m easy

Main set:

10x 100m in 100m pr +10 sec, with 20 seconds rest (i should swim the intervals in 1:28 but most of the times i do them in 1:35)

4x300 easy


Cooldown;

A bit of kicking or some easy swimming.

Paul Newsome of Swimsmooth who works with alot of triathletes and open water swimmers says it is one third technique one third volume and one third open water swimming skills. So you have to work on technique, volume, a certain amount of intensity so you can go with someone or get to the lead pack and things like sighting and drafting well.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

There's a lot of easy stuff in there and some of those drills tempt people into having a rest e.g pull and kick. I see a lot of people in my squad using things like kick and pull as a chance to have a rest. So that's 2.4km easyish and 1km hard. Way too much easy. I'm sure there are people that would disagree with me, but I'd be looking to swim most of that set harder. Those 300s could be done, at the every least moderate/75% race pace, the 50s all flat out etc etc And with the 100m hard, those 20s rests are too long. Doesn't matter if you don't make the time cycle on the last 2 or 3 100s, you will soon.And if your kick is weak, work on it, don't do less.

^ This!

I made the same improvement, moving from 1:50/100 to a 1:30/100 base over about a year's time. The serious gains started to come when I began to train as if I were a swimmer (some 2x days, swimming w/ a local triathlon team more often than solo, and gym sessions focused on swim strength).

Out of 3300 yards, not including CD, that's only 1000 yards of work. Or, about 1/2 the work I'd predict you should be doing for a workout of that length. So, it looks like you are putting in the yardage without enough training stress.

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Agreed.

But even so, the pace drop off is too catastrophic. 4x300 easy would still add SOME benefit.

I'm tipping the OP's stroke needs serious work. Able to power for 50-100, but unsustainable, and falls away quickly when fatigued.

I am working on improving my swim as well. I would echo what a few others have said. The drop off in your pace when lengthening the distance is pretty dramatic. I have been told you might add 1 or 2 sec per lap for every 100 m. The rest intervals I have been advised to use are 5 - 10 sec. I believe the rationale is you keep your heart rate up and from your last pull before the RBI to your first pull on the next interval you will end up with 15 - 20 sec., which is enough for all your blood to recirculate and give your muscles a rest and a fresh dose of oxygen rich blood to work with. So, this builds your endurance while holding your form. No point doing the long stuff if your form is falling apart - you are just hard coding the bad habits.

Having said all that, you are way faster than me so, I will slink away into a corner and suck my thumb...

Yeah i agree, we do a lot of easy stuff, probably way too much. Some weeks we do only one hard workout a week.
The thing is that i have increased my mileage significantly without improving, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Anyway, i will push the main sets harder the upcoming weeks and see where it brings me.

Push the main sets harder and 90% of the easy stuff do as moderate.

I was about to say your coach is an idiot and to ditch him, but slowman said it better. Yes, to what slowman said....you need to work on technique while swimming hard 15-20K per week for a couple of 6 month blocks over 18 months or so. I know this is a tri forum and everyone will say forget about your kick, but a lot of kick sets and underwater dolphin kick to strengthen the core and get the timing of using your entire body as whip with your core are key. Then you can swim instead of using your body as a barge to using your body as a torpedo fuselage.

You really drop off. How much high intensity swimming were you doing. How old were the kids in the squad.?


https://swimming.ca/...99997/?faction=66146

Our 11u/10u squads did a time trial last week. Very solid results. My son swims around 2000- 2500m day in the B group.

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

I agree 200 needs work. A modified version of the Texas distance set would be a good go to.
3x
200 @ 4:00 cruise
6x50 @ 60 at goal 200 pace

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___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Most weeks we have 2 hard days and 3 easy ones.
Average age in our squad is 17-18 i think. Most sessions i share the lane with guys my own age.
Yeah i know, as the distance increases my times get worse. I can swim a decent 25m (14.6 seconds) but on longer distances people blow past me left and right. That's why i started swimming 5 times a week a few months ago. To get some more endurance and improve my feel for the water.

One possible reason for the drop-off on your longer distances is oxygen -- are you getting enough air? Are you breathing every other stroke (e.g., every right arm pull) or less frequently? Are you breathing out completely underwater before breathing in deeply? I would suggest devoting some sessions to really concentrating on your breathing -- get it right on your easy/moderate sets (where you really don't need so much air, but it is easier to adopt good habits) and then intersperse some 200's doing good breathing and see if that helps. Also, have your coach watch your breathing and make recommendations. I would guess you have plenty of slow twitch muscles if you are in this sport, but breathing technique is much more critical in swimming than the other two legs (where you can just breath whenever you want.

Thanks for the reply! During longer sets i don't really run out of breath. My arms just get tired after a few 100 m which causes my technique to go south. I have tried swimming longer main sets (like 3x1000m) to get stronger over the longer distances but that didn't help either.

I want to make a conjecture. I guess that you pause at the front end of the stroke, pull too deep, and this explains why you can muscle through a shorter bit and then fall apart on something longer. I think the fix is going to make you slower at first but will eventually allow you to be much faster. But what you really need is a good coach who knows how to tell you what you need to hear. Technical changes take thousands of meters to really stick.

Sheesh - I'd die for those times. My 100y time is 2:10, 150 is 3:20 and 250 is 5:45. Thank goodness that at age 55 I can still run!

Are your reccent times SCM or LCM? From the wall or with a dive (deck or blocks)? Thanks. David K

I grew up swimming and stopped late teens. During that time i was much more competitive on shorter vs longer distances. Picked up swimming again a few years ago when starting tri, and the pattern is the same. Most recent test times were 100m @1.09 and 400m@5.55, both with push off the wall and LCM. Strive to improve, but be aware that some of us for whatever reason simply are at a handicap at longer distances.

I have a mate that I sometimes swim with, and when we do sprints next to each other on same lane, he can pace whatever tactics he likes and i still beat him no issue. He beats me by about 30 sec on 400m and 4-5 mins over 3.8km.

Thanks for the reply, these times were are all done in a SCM pool. The 50 and 100m were with a dive start from the blocks. For the longer distances i started from the water.

Those are some fast times! I agree that some people are more natural born sprinters than others. The thing that frustrates me is that i've increased training load so much without it having any effect on swimtimes. Anyway, i will stay focussed on technique and hopefully that will lead to some improvements.

I guess at the end of the day the net can't help you without seeing you swim.
And I would suggest to ask around who could help you where you live.
There seems a lot not being right. Especially not being able to kick and dropping so much for longer stuff...

Have you posted any recent videos of yourself swimming? I would guess (without seeing a video) is that your short distance speed is based on using high amounts of unsustainable (and wasted) energy that quickly fades within a minute. Then your more natural stroke takes over, which is still highly inefficient, leading to the drop in pace that you demonstrate.

You have a solid running engine that allows the above and I have seen this with many fit athletes who are not swimmers, but trying to be a swimmer. One on one private lessons might be much more important than swimming garbage uncorrected meters. Once you get proper body position and stroke technique, you can then build from that foundation.

Sorry, as I know it is frustrating for you. Swimming is like golf, and the best swimmers have the best technique and an aerobic engine. That's why you can spot really fat, out of shape, former swimmers swim laps around others when they get several swims under their belt after being out of the water for 20 years. That swimmer still has their teqhnique which is more than half the battle.

You are young and there is plenty of optimism, you just need proper direction and more (higher volume) swimming is not the right answer for you, as garbage poor swim form meters in is yielding garbage poor form ability out.

By the way, I also get heavily fatigued in arms over longer distances.

I'm not saying it's a good idea for you or anyone else, but a pair of neoprene shorts makes a night and day difference for me over longer distances. I wear them for all sessions currently, and it is my completely subjective perception that I am able to focus more on my stroke technique over longer distances instead of just fatiguing with a technique that completely falls apart. I hope to be able to refine my technique in this way. Time will show if I eventually can carry it over when swimming without neoprene shorts. I do not use them for tests though.

I'd add almost 2 seconds to your 50 and 100 timez when comparing them to your off the wall times.

If we disregard your 50 and 100 times your 200, 400 and 500 times seem less out of whack.

Although not as fast as you I also have the same issue. I can "muscle" up to a 200 much faster than many swimmers that kill me at longer events. I lack the ability to cruise along compared to others.

David K

So it has been a few years since I started this thread.
Just a quick update; I was really committed after reading the reply's that i should swim more. So for approximately 1.5 years i swam 5 times per week sometimes even six. In winter we do regular testing to see where we are at, after a year of swimming i swam an astonishing 1 second faster than i did before swimming 5 times per week. Half a year later i did the test again and once again, i did not improve (at least not in the longer distances, i did drop my 50m free to 31 seconds but my 400 scm remained right around 6:30). Race times did not improve either even after putting in a lot of hours. Needless to say i was fairly disappointed so i decided to stop swimming 5 times a week and focus on running and biking.

After a while i incorporated some rotator cuff stretches to improve my catch. This worked really well and i dropped my 400 scm time to 5:52 and 500 scm time to 7:20. After these improvements i also decided to start swimming more. The past few months i swam 3-4 times a week and i stretch regularly. However, improvements have stalled once again. During one of my recent 15x100 workouts i asked someone to film one of the reps. the footage clearly shows that i just don't really grab the water. I tried i variety of drills, paddle work, specific stretches, more training volume etc but nothing seems to work. I even feel my hand slipping while swimming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOYc27Kbw_E

My coaches mainly give tips such as: ''increase stroke rate'' ore ''glide less'', they haven't given me specific pointers to improve the catch/pull. Do any of the fishes of slowtwitch know what i should do to make some improvements? I would do all the training it takes to not lose 3 minutes in sprint distance races anymore but i just feel really stuck (none of the drills seem to work and neither does simply swimming more volume/intensity) so any help would be really appreciated!



Thanks

Ps. to make the back of the pack in my goal races i need to swim at least 6:40 for 500 scm so that is my goal for next year, still a long way to go though so maybe it is not that realistic..

Maybe pay for a swim member ship, send in video of you swimming and have a coach tell you want to change?

Thanks for the tip!

I've been a member a 2 clubs (an age group swim squad and a tri club), the coaches tell me to increase stroke rate and focus on a high elbow, i try to focus on a high elbow during the pull but for some reason i can't keep my hand from slipping as you can see in the video

You're stretching your arm out and down to make the catch right after your hand enters the water. The best swimmers stretch the arm out straight right under the surface of the water, e.g. maybe 5-6 inches below the water surface for maybe 0.1 sec, and then they start their pull. You're kind of rushing to get into the pull ASAP. It's "subtle rush" as you don't look "frenetic" like some swimmers, but you are skipping the first part of the stroke. I suspect that you will lower your strokes/length (SPL) with the longer stroke. SPL is not everything though and, even with the longer stroke, you will need to increase your turn-over rate to go faster. But, with a longer stroke, e.g. more distance per stroke AND a higher turnover rate, e.g., more strokes per minute, you will go considerably faster.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I feel your pain I've tried everything and can't seem to get any faster. I'm holding 24 to 25 mph on the bike and running sub 6s for sprints and olys but bleed minutes in the water I'm at the point where I'm just gonna maintain my swim and put the extra time into the bike and run because of how frustrating it feels to put the effort into something for minimal returns.

I suck at swimming, too, and have struggled with the same things as the OP. I have heard things like this over and over. To a non-swimmer this sounds like, "If you swim faster, you'll swim faster."

I'm just about convinced that there isn't a swim coach alive who can improve a swimmer who doesn't have natural speed. I don't mean that disrespectfully. I just think really good swimmers just "do" and they have no idea how to translate that to those who "don't".

+1
Sam

It would be helpful to have some underwater footage to really see what's going on but from the video provided I would say your overall body position is still a bit down in back and too high in front, like you're swimming uphill. You really want to feel like you're falling forward with each stroke as if you are rolling over an exercise ball as your arm is in the maximum power position. To get this make sure your hands are not drifting up as they enter the water, you should feel stretched out with your body all lined up in a horizontal position. The hips need to be higher than they currently are.

I also see some timing issues in that you could hold the glide for a fraction until your other arm starts to come around. You are also missing some power from not pairing up the power stroke with the opposite hip.

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"They know f_ck-all over at Slowtwitch"
- Lionel Sanders

Looked at your video.
There are faster people with worse strokes.
They usually have a little more power then you have.
With more power, comes a faster stroke rate and more speed.
(as you started late, the muscle doesn't come the same way)

Have you considered any form of weight training ? For swimming?
Cheers

I haven’t had an athlete that I’ve coached who wasn’t able to get better if they did everything I told them to do.

With that being said, do athletes respond differently to swim training? Absolutely.
Are some athletes more naturally gifted than others in the water? Yes
Do some athletes underestimate their limitations in the water? Yes
Do some athlete overestimate their commitment and prioritizing of the swim when they want to improve? All the time.
Do some athletes need to back off more from the bike and run to see improvements than others in the swim? Yes
Should they all be in the weight room? Yep

But if you put in the work and are patient the gains you want, as long as they are realistic, will come.

Hope this helps,

Tim

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

From my experience, the neoprene shorts are going to mess up your technique. They are different from a pull buoy in that at least with the buoy your core is forced to engage through the stroke. With the shorts that doesn’t happen. I’ve seen it in every athlete I’ve ever worked with who wore the shorts.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

+2

While I have a well entrenched rep as a Rockfish, and am the President of Total Aversion -
I have actually been doing a decent amount of swimming the past few months.

And I have improved. Ever so slightly.
Mostly I just don't get tired, and can do straight steady OW swims of 30 mins comfortably.

In open water, point to point, in tri shorts I generally swim 2:0x/100.

In a Sprint tri, with a wetsuit on, and ideally some feet, I do low 1:5x/100, to even mid 1:4x/100.
But this is only for like 6-7 minutes (swim is REALLY short), but I'm also not pinning it.
(my HIM swim PB is 33 and change, but it may have been a tad short - have done 35 or a smidge better a few times too)

In open water with zoomers on, I can do 1:4x-low, to as "fast" as 1:35's, for a mile steady PB.

So, the only thing I've found that makes me "fast" - is wearing fins.
My kick otherwise is nearly non-propulsive.
I recall doing kick sets at the pool, and it would take me minutes to cover 25m.
Meanwhile, swimmer dudes and dudettes would do their kick sets, and motor by faster than I could regular swimming.

So, at least I can train with my buddies who actually are solid swimmers, and we all stay together now.
It's definitely more enjoyable for all parties concerned, rather than them having to wait, and wait, and wait for me.

But - It seems like the only thing that'll ever make me "fast" (legally, for tri purposes) in the water - is growing some fins.

I've had some coaching over the years too - Terry Laughlin (RIP), Doug Stern (RIP) - is my swimming so bad that it drove these guys to an early grave?? ;-)
And several others.
All seemed to help. A little bit.

The only thing that helped get me to even this mediocre level of proficiency, was Finding Freestyle.
Before that, my HIM swim PB was 37 minutes, and I had a history of many swims in the 39-44 minute range.

I feel like I'm just doomed to be a meh swimmer forever.

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float , hammer , and jog

Thanks for the tip!

In the past i did some strength training with an elastic band and some body weight exercises, did that for about a year but i didn't see any noticeable improvements so i stopped but maybe i should pick that up again. Or do you mean lifting weights in the gym?

So strength work could enable a swimmer to swim with a more evf as well?

The strange thing is that i can swim between 30-31 seconds for 50 meters but during longer distances speed decreases dramatically.

Lift weights in the gym. Volt Athletics has a good app that has swim specific workouts. The athletes I work with it who use it will routinely drop between 5-10 seconds/100.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

There are some strokes you can try to learn that will also give you strength.

Most Tri swim programs never (and I have been in a few) ever do other strokes. Maybe you can do a 50 in 31, now try to do butterfly or breastroke and for recovery backstroke. All the really great swimmers were good at every stroke. Try that for a change of pace. There's a reason swimmers are all shoulders and no arse.

cheers

This is categorically false. I have FABULOUS! buttocks.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Be careful confusing being a gigantic ass with having a nice buttocks. :-)

Earlier you said 6:36 for 400 m, or 1:39 per 100 m. If you can go 30 sec for 50 m (assuming scm), you should be able to go 5:00-5:12 for 400 scm. You just need to swim more. :)

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

I only started swimming last Fall, and triathlon this Spring ... so grain of salt and all that. Look up Effortless Swimming on YouTube. He does video critiques every Friday. It's been really helpful in understanding the how and why of good form. Then compare that to as much video as you can get of yourself. What it feels like you're doing, versus what you're really doing, can be quite eye opening.

Just like running, increasing your distance will naturally decrease your speed over that distance. So without specific numbers, hard to say what you can/should improve.... however, it just seems like you would do better to swim more and swim longer - and make sure you are swimming smart sessions and working on different speeds/efforts/distances (i.e. not just swimming a slow, continuous long set, like 3000-4000 m). The wonderful side effect is that you will improve both your run and bike, by following that formula.

Right there with you. I am incredibly fortunate to have a swim coach (herself an accomplished swimmer) who is able to articulate and demonstrate the same basic concepts in a variety of different ways until the light bulb comes on. I am an appalling swimmer, relative to the general Slowtwitch crowd, and to make any meaningful gains has taken over five years of concentrated effort and coaching.

The small marginal gains and how hard they come to some people makes it such a frustrating experience that it's easy to decide that it's not worth spending the time on, at which point it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Fine if you're like me and you're toddling along at the BOP. Not fine if you have aspirations of actually hitting the podium sometime ever.

Pieces of advise

advice #1 - forget about working on technique for now. Be a slave to the pace clock. (I mean, technique is important, but that's not working for you right now, is it?)

#2 - forget about your 50m sprint speed. It's largely irrelevant. What you want is to improve your speed using a similar technique that you'd use for a 400-1500m swim. a 50 stroke is almost a completely different stroke than a middle distance or distance stroke

#3 - to achieve 3, you need to spend a lot of time working at slightly faster than your 400 pace. That's gonna mean lots of 50's, 75's and 100's, either "best average" or "descending" types of sets. Build through the sets so you're finishing strong.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Thanks for the reply!

That's what i thought as well so 2 years ago i started swimming 5 times per week with an age group squad. Did lots of fast intervals but didn't improve my times.
After a while i sort of gave up with the high volume swimming and reduced the swim frequency to 2 times per week. I did incorporate a lot of stretching though and got my time down to 5:52 for 400 scm, still a long way removed from 5 flat though.

Simply swimming a lot does not seem to work for me so for the upcoming months i will focus on strength training (as others also adviced) and try to improve my pull and catch by gaining a bit of upper body strength.
Hopefully that will do the trick to get me closer to my goal times :)

Here's the big question: when you went to 5x a week, did you reduce your bike and run volume or did it stay the same?

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I did, i completely stopped riding my bike for i few months until i got used to the increased volume.
Once swimming 5x per week started feeling normal again i increased cycling volume.
I didn't feel exceptionally tired during these swimming blocks i just never got any faster.
I've been told that my lack of improvement is largely due to my slow stroke rate and dropping elbow during the pull phase. I just don't know how to fix it and even though i am by no means a training expert, it doesn't seem like swimming more or harder is the solution....

I don’t know just how slow your rate is, but if that’s truly the limiter, then invest in a tempo trainer.

As far as dropping the elbow, unless it’s extreme it’s not what’s preventing you from hitting 5:00 for a 400, especially not at your age. To fix it, drills can help a bit but they aren’t magic. At some point you just have to stop doing that thing and htfu

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

So a disclaimer here....adult onset swimmer, started a few years ago to get into tri's....after about 2 years went from a 1:45/100LCM down to a sub 1:30/100LCM CSS pace.
I don't believe you need to swim lots to achieve this. It needs to be a combination of quality individualised coaching combined with swimming. Your typical poolside squad coach has barely enough time to run a session let alone give each swimmer proper feedback on stroke etc. You need to seek out someone who can work on things from both an on top of the water and under the water perspective, you need a video analysis from under the water as well showing what is happening and then working to improve all of those aspects.

50m sprints are useful in some ways but the stroke mechanics are completely different to what you need over longer distances. 100m repeats on short cycle times are great from a swim fitness perspective. But you need to build decent swim specific endurance by long intervals (400m and above with shortish rest times). However, you need a good stroke before doing this.

In terms of your video.....I say it a lot but there is no real power in your stroke. You cannot see clear engagement of your lats and pecs with your catch and pull so you are not generating much power through your stroke. Pull and paddles work is great for helping with some power and muscular endurance, as is some relatively simple gym work. Your body position looks OK in the water (ie hips and feet are close to the surface) but you are snaking down the pool a bit. Stroke rate looked reasonable just eyeballing it, I would not think that is a huge issue at the moment, it is what you are doing to generate forward propulsion that needs to be worked on.

You will get there, rather than invest in spending countless more hours at the pool invest in a good swim video analysis service, look for a swimsmooth certified coach or look at Effortless Swimming where you can send in videos to Brenton to be analysed by him.

 
Hi, based on the video I would work on:

a: Learn to breath on both sides, this will give you a balanced body. It's hard and in a race you can drop back to single side breathing but being able to switch sides is a good skill to have.
b: you aren't 'catching' the water, I don't see a high elbow or any forearm catch. (see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgPQRrEfUJk).

When you think about catching the water you should visualize your forearm also catching water, the video above gives a good example.

c: I would get closer to the way before I flipped but that's probably just me.

I'm not super fast but the stuff above got me out of a IM at 1hr 15ish and not tired at all. My limitation was 2x/week practice so I made sure I didn't have any junk swimming going on. every couple weeks I would swim a mile+ but in a 25yard pool that was mind numbing.

I do a lot of mind puzzles when I'm doing laps but one of the best for me is to try to tell how much slippage I get when pull. I do this by looking at the lane marker and seeing where my hand comes out. Much like paddling a canoe you could think of the fact that you are planting your hand and pulling yourself along. ( I read that somewhere but don't remember where ).

I've been a fan of swimsmooth for a long time - http://previous.swimsmooth.com/catch.html I would do a clinic if they were nearby.

I finally had a look at your video, honestly your stroke rate is fine. The biggest thing I see is that (other than those atrocious turns..) you’re just using your arms to pull. There’s no drive coming from the core or shoulders.

Do a google search for Gary hall sr videos (the Race Club) where he talks about coupling motions. it’s also referred to as the serape effect (I think Sheila Taormina coined that term). Either swimsmooth or effortless swimming, maybe both of them, have done YouTube videos on it. On this site, findingfreestyle has made a few helpful posts on kick timing and how to develop it, that plays into the coupling motions quite well.

Another source (Russel Mark from USA swimming) has described it as rotating your shoulders “forward” rather than side to side.

All just different ways of saying essentially the same thing. If you don’t really get it from one source, the other can help you “get it”.

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Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly

Can I ask what his qualifications are? ;)

Yeah, artocious is probably the best way to describe my turns XD

Thanks i had a look at a few articles and will do my best to implement the tips tonight!

LOL

I remember THAT question - and the very detailed answer from Gary Hall Sr.
😂😂😂[/reply]

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If you really want to do something, you'll find a way.
If you don't, you'll find an excuse.

My swim coach describes it as "pulling yourself over a box". That was one of the most useful visuals she ever gave me.

This is what I'm seeing as well. Your forearm isn't going vertical until it's well past your shoulder. As such, you're never engaging the bigger muscles in the core, lats or back. Look at this picture as another "what it's supposed to look like". You hear it a lot, but it should feel like reaching over a barrel or box.

Pretty classy response, if I remember correctly...!