No affixed rear wheel if you're using something like the Tacx Neo or Wahoo KICKR.

Less noisy. The KICKR is a bit quieter than most fluid trainers. The Neo is way quieter.

Resistance changes to the terrain when riding something like Zwift.

Ability to interact with smart phones and/or computers.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

I currently have CycleOps Fluid 2 and I wouldn't say noise is a problem and Tacx Neo and Wahoo Kickr are out of my price range. Currently I have CycleOps Fluid 2 with speed and cadence sensors interacting with trainerroad running on my iphone. Will be getting a power meter soon. It really seems like the automatic resistance changes may be the only main benefit for me. I'm really mainly considering the tacx vortex smart trainer since it's price point is good and it has good reviews.

I use the Vortex for the same reason you mentioned, the Kickr was currently not fitting into the budget.

The Vortex can be had for $300 (check out Evan's), bluetooth/ANT+/FE-C, works with all the major training software, and is pretty darn quiet since it's using a brake. It doesn't have the great inertia you get with others, but it was an acceptable trade-off for all the training benefits.

Haven't had any real issues and use it daily with TrainerRoad and occasionally Zwift. Not a huge footprint (physical or sound), easily calibrated with phone or software, and is pretty portable.

If I had to do it again, I'd likely offload some old parts and so forth to try and make a Kickr fit the budget so I could get the wheel off benefit, flywheel, more stable attachment, and more consistent power readings, but this might only be a real consideration if, like me, you are using it 2+ times a day everyday of the week throughout the year.

One thing I would note about the Vortex, if you have a power meter, use that for your training (and Power Match in TrainerRoad). Mine, and it seems like a lot of others(?), have almost a 40w higher power reading from the Vortex when compared to a crank PM like the Quarq. So I just use the Quarq (or my Stages on another bike) as the PM data.

I'm getting a Stages power meter. So if I get the Vortex I would definitely being using Power Match in TrainerRoad. I'm doing about 4 sessions a week on my trainer. It would be nice to get a Kickr but far too expensive.

One downside I forgot to mention regarding intervals and ERG on this thing (and maybe the others)...

If you are doing short intervals like TR English workout (1' on - 1' off - repeat), I have found that a lot of times the first 10-15" are spent below power as the brake is properly settling in. So your very short and specific efforts are going to be a bit off, in my experience. This is where a nice fluid trainer like the Road Machine is fantastic. However, if you can adjust your cadence a bit and anticipate the gradual change, then you should be fine. Granted, there are cases where the braking is far faster and you are in power range really quick. It's just something I wanted to point out. You might find you have to experiment a little with different workouts to get the feel for how things will function, how Power Match works for you, and so forth.

thanks. all good info. It's tempting when Evans has it so cheap.

My Kickr doesn't give a shit if I'm tired. It makes me hit my intervals or quit.

This is why I love my Kickr too. It will kick your ass every time.

The newest smart trainer on the market is the CycleOps Hammer https://www.cycleops.com/product/hammer

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I don't think kickr or any other smart trainers have exclusive rights to kicking one's ass. My CycleOps Fluid 2 provides plenty of resistance.

Unless you have used ERG mode, you have no idea what kind of ass kicking a Smart trainer can bring. I'm not saying that to be mean. ERG mode is tough. The trainer forces you to do work no matter what.

I used to have a Kurt Kinetic Road Machine. When I got the Kickr, I was working harder than ever before. It's a big difference.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I would suggest that the only real benefit of a smart trainer is ERG mode, but don't underestimate the importance of it.

Imagine a form of training where you don't have to stare at your monitor, and constantly be adjusting your legs faster/slower in order to go hard enough, but not too hard, during your interval. And it happens automatically, at the beginning of your workout while your mind is still fresh, and even at the end of your workout when you're so beat down and can barely think of what the answer to 2+2= is...

It really is a different form of training. All you have to think about is keeping your feet moving. I started with a dumb trainer along with a Power Meter, have since upgraded to a KICKR, and don't regret the KICKR purchase at all.

I'll take your word for it. I guess I'm trying to understand how it's different from when I'm using my dumb trainer with trainerroad and I keep it in the green to match the targeted power trainer road. Regardless, I like the idea of ERG mode and not having to shift gears.

ERG mode means if you slow down the resistance gets harder and harder until the cranks stop. The only choice you have it to switch gears or hit the power required in each interval. On a fluid trainer, you can slack off a bit and miss your interval. On a Kickr, if you slow down you stop.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

okay. That I did not know. So when doing a ftp test on an smart trainer I would not do the test in ERG mode. Now I'm seeing the benefit of a smart trainer even more.

The Kickr has 3 settings. You can make the Kickr act like a fluid trainer to do an FTP test. You can also do your intervals in non-ERG mode too.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

Erg mode is pretty much the only reason why I'd ever upgrade from my setup (Quarq and Kurt Kinetic Rock n Roll).

Evans has a nice price on the Vortex but I would be worried about returns, if there was an issue, since I'm in the US

Yeah, check out the Tacx site maybe. I could be wrong, but I believe you are to deal directly with Tacx for warranty issues, anyway. At least that's what I recalled reading somewhere when researching forum posts before buying.

Either way, it's still a great price for a smart trainer whether you pay the Evan's price or something a bit higher. I definitely don't feel that the the others in the Kickr pool of trainers are $800USD fancier. But others may disagree. I feel you get a lot of value with it.

yeah. you're probably right. unless evans shipped it busted up, any warranty issues probably would be handled by tacx

Erg mode makes it a lot more consistent and mentally easier to hold the interval.

You are correct in assuming you'll get a similar workout by just holding the power steady on your fluid trainer. It's a bit better on the erg mode though - no wimping out on those late intervals, and a MUCH more reproducible workout experience, which allows for a lot smaller incremental power improvements. (Try targeting +3 watts of power on each interval on a fluid trainer/TR, something that is eminently doable on the Kickr.)

I find erg mode particularly good for long rides and long intervals, where it takes a lot of mental energy to not either blow up too early or slack off in the end, especially when you're really pushing to your limits.

Erg mode is great, and once you use it, it's very hard to imagine going back to the non erg bike trainer, but no, it's not some magic bullet that will on its own take your cycling to the next level.

I like riding routes on my smart trainer so the big benefit for me is that it's more fun than my old fluid trainer and I like the variability I get with elevation changes. On my fluid trainer I ended up riding in a tight cadence range all winter and sometimes it took a few rides to adjust to outdoors where my cadence would vary more holding power over varying terrain. I have a power meter so I don't need the power on the trainer so it's mainly about virtual training for me. Give me a route with good video and some intervals and I can ride the trainer for a few hours without getting bored.

I tried erg mode a couple times and hated it. I wasn't as mentally engaged in the workout and felt like it held me back. Adjusting your FTP during an interval is annoying and short intervals are tough because it takes about 10-15 seconds for the trainer to react to big resistance changes. I usually combine courses and workouts so I have to hit my power targets on my own while dealing with elevation changes at the same time, just like race day.

It's the best way to instantly increase your FTP

awesome. I'll add it right along with the instant swim fixes thread. Get a few instant run fixes and I write a book titled "Set it and forget it triathlon training"

On fluid trainers I have a tendency to blow up early on. If I don't have my eyes glued to my garmin when on a fluid trainer I'll easily find myself 20%+ above my target power in the first ten minutes of the ride and then, later on, I'll often find myself too low.

With smart trainers you're basically paying for training discipline. I have my workouts programmed for me (Trainer Road) so I just show up and push the pedals.

Are the direct mount trainers better for the bike than traditional wheel-on models? I mean that as in less stress on our carbon frames and all that good stuff.

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Team Zoot - Great Lakes

Yeah. I have trainerroad running on my iphone receiving data from cadence and speed sensors so I have to keep an eye on the app to make sure I'm hitting the target power number. The tacx vortex price point is super tempting.

Stress levels won't change. However, you don't have a tire eating machine to deal with.

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Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/

I just use a trainer tire. Seems to not get eaten up as much

Well, crap. Wish I would have known about this before I bought mine from Amazon last week.

So far, really enjoying the Vortex with Zwift. Saving another $150 would have been nice, though.

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#cureMS

Yep, I have a Gator Skin that's been going for more than 400 hours on the trainer. No issues.

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Strava

I have used the KICKR in erg mode for over a year and ride almost exclusively indoors. I have loved it and agree that has put me to the limit with unforgiving intervals. But I have had a bit of difficulty recently translating my performance from the KICKR to a hilly course where my tired legs are required to generate all the power and there's a need to change gears frequently. Put another way, I've been wondering whether the KICKR erg mode can inadvertently make the rider a little lazy and lose some of the "feel" for his/her bike, what gears to be in for certain cadence, etc. Again, though, I'm talking about courses with lots of changes in terrain, not something like eagleman or even rollers.

Welcome any thoughts.

These have been my thoughts, too, but have you had any issues with the kind of experience I described in my post immediately above this one?

I still occasionally ride outdoors but unless you have access to areas where the riding requires that level of rapid gear shifting then you're still SOL. Most triathlons don't have shifting requirements like that. Maybe a crit race or some other road race

Yeah. I'm torn about where to purchase it from. I don't know with a larger item like a bike trainer if I would have to deal with customs, if ordering from Evans, since I'm in the US and would be ordering something from UK. PerformanceBike has a 20% sale right now. And July 4th sales are this weekend.

It's under $800 USD so you do not have to deal with any customs fees or import tariffs. You simply have to cover the shipping. I think mine came out to $40 - so I paid $340 total shipped to my door (arrived within 4 business days) from Evan's.

As for wheel off vs attached. The Vortex is obviously a wheel attached and it clamps fairly well. However, I do find with really hard sprints it isn't as solid. I also get creaking from the clamp area when I am doing anything with sustained high wattage and lower cadence. This also manifests as lateral tire movement on the trainer-to-tire contact point. It isn't so much lost power, but more an increase in noise. With a wheel off design, you wouldn't have to worry about these issues. You also wouldn't have to bother with a separate training wheel, training tire, and swapping these out. Further, you do not rely on proper tension against your tire/wheel and tire pressure, etc, like you do with these wheel on trainers and the subsequent slippage or calibration issues. However, there is a big cost-benefit consideration to be had since the wheel off smart trainers are considerably higher in price compared to the Vortex. Thus, I decided to give the Vortex a try for the low buy-in. Ultimately, I do not see keeping it as the main trainer as I anticipate getting a Kickr or something similar as the prices (hopefully) come done with more competition at that technology point. However, it's my go to for now and I've put in far too many quality hours on the Vortex to not recommend it at this price point.

awesome. thanks for the input. Noise is not too much of an issue. I have an isolated room and I don't anticipate it being a rocket engine of noise. my cycleops works fine but I like the idea of a smart trainer especially at this price point.

Well. I went ahead and pulled the trigger and ordered the tacx vortex from Evans.

Just saw this thread. Congrats on purchase. I made the move to Vortex from Fluid trainer a couple months so I will add my 2 cents. Very happy with purchase. As others have stated it isn't perfect but for the price, I think it's a great value. it does have a lag time when adjusting to higher or lower intensities. So shorter, :30 or 1' are not very effective. But awesome for anything 4-20'. In ERG mode, makes my workouts so much easier and harder all at the same time. I use custom workouts in TR or Zwift, settle in to comfortable cadence and just pedal. No worries about whether I am on the right watts or when interval begins or ends. But also no opportunity to cheat the workouts unless you just stop. So definitely much harder.

It is pretty solid for a lower price tag trainer. If using Zwift, does take a little back and forth to make sure watts in Zwift match my PM. But now that I have dialed in tension and tire PSI, it's pretty close. On TR, you can just use powermatch feature and it uses PM watts.

What tire PSI do you use? I'm sure I'll be happy with it at this price point. I think I'll enjoy just using trainer road and let it control the resistance rather than me having to watch to make sure I'm on target power and shifting gears.

Well, kinda, to a point. Depending on what software you're running, the trainer may reduce resistance below a certain threshold speed. This is done to avoid overheating the load generator or resistance unit from operation at high resistance and too low of a speed (and for us old guys, the strain on the knees).

Conversely, some software have a settable limits on upper speed (and some for rpm as well) that helps avoid overspeed situations and the possible resultant tire failure. But your basic statement is true; the resistance increases as speed decreases within the specified range(s) of operation.

I settled right at 110. It was some tweaking of dial and PSI to get the right combo so that Watts in Zwift were close to my Quarq. Now that it is close I know to just set PSI to same every time. Watts are within 5 or so so doing workout in Zwift is real close to my goal. Not really an issue if you use TR and power match to set resistance. You will just need calibration to fall in the right zone. You can use iphone to set that. Just make sure to disconnect BT after you calibrate or the ERG mode won't work. That tripped me up a bit. Also, you need to get tire warmed up a bit to calibrate properly since that change value. But like I said, once calibrated seems pretty steady.

I do like riding in Zwift on ERG mode every so often and not doing specific workout. Nice to have to adjust gearing for uphill/downhills.

good info. thanks. I don't really use Zwift. I mostly use TR and stick to their structured workouts so I'll use the power match.

I ordered from Evans on 6/28 and scheduled delivery is 6/30. Wow!

I also run 110 PSI with my Conti trainer tire.

Interesting thread. Having had a Smart Trainer and eventually returning it for a refund there's a few negative things about them. I'm back on my reliable Cycleops Fluid 2 trainer now. 4iiii power meter.

1. You either match the power target or you stop. Yup it sure makes you work but if it's say a VO2 max interval workout and you've got repeating 2 minute intervals at 120% of FTP the last 20 seconds can be a struggle. On a dumb trainer you can drop your power a bit below and still be able to complete the interval. With the smart trainer you have to fart around changing the intensity or stop and try to start again or wait out until the target power drops.

2. Conversely and this one applies to me a lot is where on the last interval or intervals I'm feeling strong and want to go over the target power. On the dumb trainer I just spin quicker or change to a harder gear or both. On the Smart trainer again I've got to fart around with the intensity. I guess the option here on a smart trainer is to change from ERG mode to slope mode but that sort of defeats the purpose of having one.

3. Short intervals. Today for example I did Trainerroad's "Clark" workout where each interval started with a 12 second all out and very low cadence stomp where you ground out as much power as you can before settling into the the rest of the interval at just below FTP. Smart trainers can't really hack this and even the workout text says those on a smart trainer need to start slowing cadence down up to 30 seconds before the 12 second burst starts. I was also able to go over the target power of 150% of FTP and give everything I had rather than be held back.

4. Power accuracy. My main issue with my Kickr Snap. Just way off what my power meter was reporting. I never expected things to match but I would have expected the difference to be constant. It wasn't and the higher the power target the more out the difference was. At a 300 w target the Snap essentially locked up even though my FTP was 306. It would have needed Superman to have spun the pedals. Obviously an issue with the Kickr Snap but I've seen numerous other people having to use Trainerroad's "Power Match" to control their smart trainer. I used this as well and it worked great on workouts that didn't have sudden jumps in power target. Where there was a big jump it took some time for the power to settle down to the target power. The net result was I was having to put out way more power at the start of the interval than the target power. This as you could imagine knocked the shit out of me. I've seen other people mention this with other trainers.

5. A lot of smart trainers require a warm up period of about 10 minutes. You then do a spindown calibration. I guess you can start the workout, ride for 10 minutes, stop and do the calibration and then carry on with the workout. I don't like to stop workouts and much prefer no stopping. On my Fluid 2 trainer I do a minute or two to warm up the trainer then calibrate my power meter and then rip into the workout.

6. Can't use your smart trainer outside or most of them you can't. I use mine to warm up at events like TT's. Yup I'm aware some can work without power but I'm pretty sure most require power.

I'm sure there are other disadvantages. Having had one I'm in no hurry to go back using one. A power meter and a dumb trainer work really well for me using Trainerroad in conjunction with riding outdoors.

Thanks for the detailed response. I just got my tacx vortex smart so I can't speak to what will or will not bother me. My CycleOp Fluid 2 trainer sprung a leak so I have to send that back for replacement. I have a stages power meter that I just received so haven't installed it yet. If I end up not liking the tacx I'll just go back to the cycleops and use with my power meter.

Well I've had the Vortex for a handful of workouts so far and I have to say erg mode is pretty awesome. DIfficult but awesome. I have my Stages PM installed but I'm waiting until next week to redo my ftp test but it seems pretty accurate at this point given how my trainerroad workouts intensity levels seem spot on. But I'm not yet using the Stages pair with trainerroad. Next week I'll do a ftp test with Stages and then use that with Powermatch. Pretty cool though. I didn't care for the wheel setup and some of the plastic parts compared to the Cycleops which feels like a tank but now that it's setup it's fine.

Hi - Could you (or anyone else who has done similar) confirm how the power works for a UK purchased, US used trainer

I've had issues in the past buying stuff, shipping it and then performance with an adapter being not good

James

The unit is the same, and the power cable outlet on the unit is standard figure 8 shape. However, the plug you'll get for it if ordering from the UK will be one to plug into a UK standard outlet. So I simply stole one from another device (dvd player) and this worked fine. I eventually just ordered this (http://amzn.to/29CruaP) as I needed the cable back for the player.

Same here. I had an old tivo around and it uses same cable as needed by the tacx.

On your dumb trainer, can you sprint without your tire slipping?

I can hold 300w on my fluid trainer, but when I try to do a short sprint the tire slips and makes my intervals worthless.

I can on mine. Of course I'm not unleashing 1200 watts in a sprint, but really picking up the effort I don't have an issue.

I have kinetic kurt and 2 kickers, main reason I have kickers is ability to simulate climbs, in Ontario we do not have any climbs, That is the only way for me to climb for 60 minutes :)

Do you know at what wattage yours starts to slip? Is 1,100 okay but not 1,200?

No slippage issues for me. If I'm going to be doing a workout that has some sudden bursts I might tighten the tension knob an extra 1/2 turn but generally I run with the regular tension on Cycleops Fluid 2. I'm not putting out 1200 watts either, maybe 700 or 800 watts at best.