Swim Bike Run
Slowtwitch.com
  • Login >
Slowtwitch.com
Search menu
Hot Forum Topics

Poll

Comfort While Cycling
How much does comfort while cycling influence your overall race performance?
View Results


Home > Forum > Triathlon Forum > IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded

Triathlon Forum

Back To ForumPrint Thread

Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Tri
Classifieds
Lavender
Jobs
Notices
IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 6:25
Post #1 of 47 Views: 5641
 
Pregame:






Drove to Mont Tremblant from State College, PA, arriving Thursday.
OWS with Bob S. (winner 35-39M) and my daughter Megan on Friday am. Megan took it easy on us.

Forecast was for a hot day on Sunday.

This was our 4th visit to MT, as my wife and daughters really love the venue. Lots of kids activities and it's also easy to spectate. Our hotel room actually had a good view of the run course in town.

Hydrated as well as I could before. Usual diet day before race.

Race Day:

Up at 4am. Coffee, hydration, 2 bagels (small) and 2 pop tarts. This is the usual.
Pumped tires up to 90 PSI. Added water to the bike. Garmin 800 attached. Out of there quickly and back to the hotel. Walked with Tracie and Megan (12) and Kate (9) to the swim start. Quick swim warm up.

Swim:

1:04:33 (watch actually said 1:02, but mats and all)
41st in AG

Started on the inside. Ran the first bit and then started swimming. Clear swim. Stayed just inside of the buoys until the turnaround. Never any melee situations. The new swim start at IMMT is definitely something I love. Swam back with hardly anyone around me and wondered if I was off course, but wasn't. Easy strokes and focused on just using the least amount of energy I could. Ended up swimming the fastest and easiest IM swim ever. Key I believe was really good sighting and straight swimming.

Also, I switched to the Zoot Prophet 3.0 this year and I really, really like this suit. More arm freedom than my prior suits and I have had the best swims of my tri career in this suit. Highly recommend this!






T1:

5:37

Long run up from the water. Was wearing the new Zoot aero suit. Swam with the torso down so as not to restrict arm motion. Easily was able to get the arms through and zip up. Quickly got helmet on and shoes. Decent transition.

Bike:

5:00:43. My Garmin had 4:59, but of course there is time from crossing the mat getting on and off the bike, etc.






Set-up:
S-works Shiv. S-works 53/39 Crank, 11-27 Dura Ace cassette.
Hydration. Speedfil rear hydration (1 bottle) and Speedfil BTA system. Nothing on seat/down tube.
Tools/gels. Specialized Fuel Cell, small BTS bag and Small top tube bag.
Wheels. Zipp FC 808 clinchers. Carbon breaking surface.
Tires. Specialized Cotton Turbo Clinchers. 24/24. Latex tubes. 90 PSI.
Helmet: LG P09.
Shoes: Specialized S-works road shoes. I have the trivents as well, but prefer the road shoes for IM.
Zoot Aero Speed Suit.
Weight 160 lbs. 5-11"




Goal was to start easy and then pick up after 20' or so. Started the real effort around 117. Maintained aero for as long as possible except on a few climbs etc.

First few hours were very easy on effort. Followed the lower end of the wattage goals (210-230). Coasted a lot on the downhills. Really very little wind at all. Passed massive numbers of people... tried to stay away from people, and surprisingly little blocking. Many draft marshals out there, which was great.Watched a guy powering up climbs and then kept passing him on flatter sections. Must have been pushing 400+ watts as I was doing close to 300 at that stage.

First 1.5 hours were not hot, but that changed quickly. Hydrated with water and gels and then gatorade for hour 3. Tried to drink as much as I could without over doing it.

First loop was close to 2:26, so backed off on the second loop as it was heating up. Ended up adjusting down the power goals by 10-15 watts for the second loop as I suspected the increasing heat might play a toll. I was right, it did.

Had some lower back pain at around 3.5 hours, so decided to get out of aero during most climbs, but in aero for everything flat and down hill. I do have a history of a disc herniation...

Overall ride was 214 NP watts, which was about 10-15 lower than the targets would have been with normal temperatures. Did a lot of non-pedaling once up to speed on descents.

Notes...
Really strived to improve my aerodynamics this year. After missing Kona by 7 sec last year, I worked hard on this. Water bottle set up, aero kit, maintaining position, helmet and tires, pressure, etc.

Plan to work with some folks in our triathlon discussion group to get tunnel time, but honestly I think I'm pretty slippery at this time!

Have to say that I was 9' faster than last year on 8 less watts (NP)

Did not likely take in enough fluids, but considering that I have much better bike fitness this year, I had felt that riding 212 watts was not "over-biking". Who knows?



T2:

Last year 4', this year 2:03. Did not take off the aero suit, probably should have, as it got really, really hot. Good transition otherwise. Should have applied a bit more sun block...


Run:




Started off strong. Back spasms went away completely. Felt good. Decided that would aim for 8:10-8:20 pace and hit this pretty consistently for the first 12 miles. Hydrated, but not until 20' into the run. Probably should have started earlier, but wanted to ensure I transitioned from the bike completely. Ice into the tri kit and hat at aid stations. Gatorade, water for the start. Had planned on gels, but decided against it. Switched to coke around mile 12.

Saw the family at the 13 mile mark and was starting to decline. Felt the legs getting tight and was having a hard time moving forward at that stage. Pace decreased to 9-10' per mile, then got worse. Walked only when I had to, but the "run" pace was pretty slow. Hydrated at every aid station I could. Felt extreme thirst, dreaming of the next aid station where I could take in more and more fluids.

Funny, I never experienced any of the bloating or cramps that I have in the past. Just felt dehydrated. A bit out of it, but not terrible.

Was 4th off the bike and 7th until mile 23 or so... but when 2 guys in my AG passed, there was nothing I could do. Just could NOT run faster. Have learned from the past on how not to end up in the medical tent... and I just stayed an easier effort.

Not 100% sure what went wrong?

1. Heat.
2. Dehydration.
3. Overbike?




The usual answer would be overbike, however much lower watts than I had planned or held in training on very hot days. Also, stomach was fine, usually it shuts down when I overbike.

My guess is that I came in a little under-hydrated to the day and fell behind on the bike. I had much better fitness on the run than this, but I'm really pleased overall with this race... despite the issues.

I've continued to improve in the sport. I'm actually (mainly) happy with this race.

1. My best swim ever.
2. Best bike split ever.
3. Persevered thru the run despite realizing my Kona dream was over. Thought about pulling the plug after the first run loop, but kept on going.
4. Enjoyed the finish!




Would like to thank many people.

My Coach, Shane MacLeod @ Scotia Multi Sports. Best coach and helped me get to the start line in one pice!

My good friends, who supported me along the way, including those who couldn't make the trip (James R.), and Kudos to Bob S. for winning M35-39!

The Triathlon Discussion Group on facebook that I started in January. PM me if interested, as there is some great discussion that helped answer many of my questions about aerodynamics and triathlon in general. Great Group!

My 2 beautiful and supportive daughters Megan and Kate. Megan can out swim 99% of triathletes, and I enjoyed the pre-swim with her. Kate helped her Dad hobble from the finish area back to the room as my wife and Megan got the bike and gear. Both rockstars!

My wonderful wife who puts up with this lunatic sport of mine. She was all over the course cheering for me. All of my results and successes in this sport are directly related to her support. She's the one who gets to pick up the pieces when things fall apart.




Lastly, I would like to thank my sponsors:
1. Team Zoot
2. Zoot Sports
3. Garmin
4. Speedfil.
5. Smith Optics


Kona? Yeah, missed by 7 sec last year. This year, it rolled only 1 spot, so 9th out of 330? just isn't good enough. I'm ok with this, as I did my best at this race. I'm time limited (average 10 hours per week over the year and have a job that destroys my sleep over and over), and the additional sacrifice of doing another race in 7 weeks in the heat does not necessarily appeal to me. It would not have been ideal for my family either. I'm a physician, husband and father far before being a triathlete.

I believe that I get AMAZING results from my limited training and sleep destructive job. 10:00 last year and 10:21 in the heat on 10 hours a week! If I'm going to be disappointed in that then I'm an idiot. I suspect many ahead of me are training more than me. Not sure, but triathlon is a hobby for me.

FAMILY > PROFESSION > TRIATHLON

Honestly, I'm done with the Kona dream for now. I will still be doing Tri's and another IM next year (IMLP), but if I were to assess this race I would say the following: I had a really good race. I melted on the run. Probably some mistakes were made, but if you look at the IMMT results, most people melted on the run. If I assessed it from a KQ POV, I would call it a failure. I refuse to see these races (and especially this one) as a failure. So, again, sort of done with Kona as a primary goal. I race Ironman because... I like Ironman. Crazy, yeah. Still searching for a better, stronger performance, but Kona isn't part of that for the time being.

Would be happy to address any questions.

Thanks for reading!




Fred Doucette
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
owtbac86
Aug 21, 15 8:51
Post #2 of 47 Views: 5453
Nice RR, Fred and congrats on a great race!

I've been in your shoes before and probably will be again - I've missed KQ by 100 meters, 1 minute, a portajohn stop, etc. - just the way it is. It is an interesting conundrum - I also judge IM races from a KQ perspective - it's pretty binary success/failure.

I do think that thought process is fine, as long as you enjoy the journey getting to the start line.

Sit on your decision to not go for KQ - you're definitely in the hunt.

Go back to the files, race decisions, etc. in a couple of weeks and assess what you did right and what you didn't. I think that's what makes IM so interesting - it's a constant science project with a bunch of variables. I would say you'll need to work out the sleep issue, since I've found that to be a killer.

It will get tougher next year, though, with many races going to 40 slots. This will push some races to 3 to 4 slots for M45, in lieu of 4 to 5 slots.

Good luck!
Team Kiwami
Instagram
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
teichs42
Aug 21, 15 9:01
Post #3 of 47 Views: 5421
Congrats! People like you have always baffled me...training so little but racing so fast! Could you go into how this works a little? Is it from years of endurance training? High intensity most of those 10 hours? Lower hours of training is something that appeals to me because I don't think I could hit 15+ consistently, but I just don't get how you have the endurance for an IM with 10-12 hours a week and be able to perform well. I'm nowhere near KQing, in fact, my goal in my next IM would be to break 14 hours (25-29 right now), so performing for me doesn't mean going fast, to me it means being able to go steady all day.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maine Rob
Aug 21, 15 9:03
Post #4 of 47 Views: 5417
Congratulations on a great race. Those are great swim and bike times, and your hard work and consistency has clearly paid off. Rough day for running, but sounds like you've got it all in perspective.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul
Aug 21, 15 9:08
Post #5 of 47 Views: 5390
Awesome race.

From everything you said, i don't think you overbiked. I'll say the same thing as I said to Nate....I think people under estimate the first 10-20K of the run and that they may be overcooking the early part of the run. But it is soooo hard to tell because the over cook run pace in the first half is EASIER THAN EVERY ONE OF OUR EASY TRAINING RUNS (sorry, I used the Barry Shepley approved all caps). My good IM runs are done at the pace that I recover at in between run intervals. That's how easy the run pace ends up being in a "good IM". Also WTC run hydration really sucks. I wish they would give you full bottles of Gatorade like at Wildflower. You pick up a bottle and run with it for a couple of aid stations and get the full 710 mL in the bottle and dump it...those cups are not enough. At IM South Africa they had these really cool plastic bags with 200mL of ice cold water in them. You just bit off the corner and squirted an actual reasonable serving into your mouth. I thought that was awesome. My next IM I am not only starting the run with a full bottle of Infinite as I have done in the last few, but also putting a full bottle in special needs. I just find fluid in cups does not cut it in the heat.

Your race was still really awesome. Well done and I hope to see you chase the road to Kona.

I like this part of Owtback86's post

"Go back to the files, race decisions, etc. in a couple of weeks and assess what you did right and what you didn't. I think that's what makes IM so interesting - it's a constant science project with a bunch of variables. I would say you'll need to work out the sleep issue, since I've found that to be a killer. "


The sleep issue is my number 1 performance limiter. I am on the road 30 weeks per year, usually at least 3 time zones away, but more than half those weeks at 6-14 time zones away. I knew at my early season races, that would limit me and it did. Then I had a nice build at home before Whistler and had a really good half at Muskoka but froze at Whistler (I suck in that).....so I am back in that proverbial "constant science project mode"....just got support from home to go race in Tahoe if I want to extend this silly science project.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
lightheir
Aug 21, 15 9:10
Post #6 of 47 Views: 5386
Congrats on a great result. On 10 hours a week of training, no less!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [owtbac86] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:00
Post #7 of 47 Views: 5286
owtbac86 wrote:
Nice RR, Fred and congrats on a great race!

I've been in your shoes before and probably will be again - I've missed KQ by 100 meters, 1 minute, a portajohn stop, etc. - just the way it is. It is an interesting conundrum - I also judge IM races from a KQ perspective - it's pretty binary success/failure.

I do think that thought process is fine, as long as you enjoy the journey getting to the start line.

Sit on your decision to not go for KQ - you're definitely in the hunt.

Go back to the files, race decisions, etc. in a couple of weeks and assess what you did right and what you didn't. I think that's what makes IM so interesting - it's a constant science project with a bunch of variables. I would say you'll need to work out the sleep issue, since I've found that to be a killer.

It will get tougher next year, though, with many races going to 40 slots. This will push some races to 3 to 4 slots for M45, in lieu of 4 to 5 slots.

Good luck!

I thank you for the kind words!

I will take time to assess, however I have a limited amount of time to work with for training. If success is simply KQ or bust, I'm spending too much of my valuable free time and money on something that will likely have a negative outcome each time. Passed on KQ 5 years ago. Missed by 7s last year, and melt down on the run here. All were GREAT races for me, and I'd rather try to improve, without the negativity of no KQ.

Heck at Kona, guys like me are fodder anyway. I understand it's a cool experience, but I honestly really just love SBR, and really like ironman racing. Love the process.

My run training probably had little chance to support the pace I needed, as I have been barely making 100 miles per month.

I'm kind of amazed I get the results I do, to be honest...
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Maine Rob] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:01
Post #8 of 47 Views: 5281
Maine Rob wrote:
Congratulations on a great race. Those are great swim and bike times, and your hard work and consistency has clearly paid off. Rough day for running, but sounds like you've got it all in perspective.

It was on a razor's edge wrt the run, and the heat and a few other mistakes hurt me.

Remember racing IMLP in 2008? ;-)
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [teichs42] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:06
Post #9 of 47 Views: 5263
teichs42 wrote:
Congrats! People like you have always baffled me...training so little but racing so fast! Could you go into how this works a little? Is it from years of endurance training? High intensity most of those 10 hours? Lower hours of training is something that appeals to me because I don't think I could hit 15+ consistently, but I just don't get how you have the endurance for an IM with 10-12 hours a week and be able to perform well. I'm nowhere near KQing, in fact, my goal in my next IM would be to break 14 hours (25-29 right now), so performing for me doesn't mean going fast, to me it means being able to go steady all day.

I have an incredible coach, who understands my schedule and gets the most out of me. I swim at intensity, but only 2-2.5 hours a week or so. I run easy, but not enough (which is the real cause of the problem).

I bike at high intensity.
Almost all my rides were above IM intensity. A number of rides of NP 260 for 3.5-4 hours. (FTP=310). 5 hour rides at NP 230, etc.

I do not have any real sports background, but have been doing triathlons for 10 years or so (7 IM's). so I suspect I have a good base.

I also *think* I have decent mental toughness, as I can push thru stuff that maybe some others can't?

To clarify, that's my weekly average... I did go over 10 hours a week at various points, but of course well under as well at other points.
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:08
Post #10 of 47 Views: 5252
devashish_paul wrote:
Awesome race.

From everything you said, i don't think you overbiked. I'll say the same thing as I said to Nate....I think people under estimate the first 10-20K of the run and that they may be overcooking the early part of the run. But it is soooo hard to tell because the over cook run pace in the first half is EASIER THAN EVERY ONE OF OUR EASY TRAINING RUNS (sorry, I used the Barry Shepley approved all caps). My good IM runs are done at the pace that I recover at in between run intervals. That's how easy the run pace ends up being in a "good IM". Also WTC run hydration really sucks. I wish they would give you full bottles of Gatorade like at Wildflower. You pick up a bottle and run with it for a couple of aid stations and get the full 710 mL in the bottle and dump it...those cups are not enough. At IM South Africa they had these really cool plastic bags with 200mL of ice cold water in them. You just bit off the corner and squirted an actual reasonable serving into your mouth. I thought that was awesome. My next IM I am not only starting the run with a full bottle of Infinite as I have done in the last few, but also putting a full bottle in special needs. I just find fluid in cups does not cut it in the heat.

Your race was still really awesome. Well done and I hope to see you chase the road to Kona.

I like this part of Owtback86's post

"Go back to the files, race decisions, etc. in a couple of weeks and assess what you did right and what you didn't. I think that's what makes IM so interesting - it's a constant science project with a bunch of variables. I would say you'll need to work out the sleep issue, since I've found that to be a killer. "


The sleep issue is my number 1 performance limiter. I am on the road 30 weeks per year, usually at least 3 time zones away, but more than half those weeks at 6-14 time zones away. I knew at my early season races, that would limit me and it did. Then I had a nice build at home before Whistler and had a really good half at Muskoka but froze at Whistler (I suck in that).....so I am back in that proverbial "constant science project mode"....just got support from home to go race in Tahoe if I want to extend this silly science project.

Thanks Dev!

There is some real gold in there. I aimed for 8-8:20 pace for the first 10 miles and it felt fine, but in retrospect, considering my lower running year, it was probably too fast considering the heat.

I did run 3:33 last year, and "felt" I was holding back. Probably wasn't.

Appreciate your thoughts.
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Runner Rick
Aug 21, 15 10:24
Post #11 of 47 Views: 5209
Fred D wrote:
To clarify, that's my weekly average... I did go over 10 hours a week at various points, but of course well under as well at other points.

Averaging 10 hours per week is a LOT different than only having max 10 hours a week to train. My yearly average is maybe half my hours in peak weeks.

That being said, it sounds like your intensity in your limited bike time has really paid off. It's not easy mentally to know every time you hop on the bike, you have to hammer.
Proud Member of Chris McDonald's 2018 Big Sexy Race Team "That which doesn't kill me, will only make me stronger"
Blog-Twitter-Instagram-Race Reports - 2018 Races: IM Florida 70.3, IM Raleigh 70.3, IM 70.3 World Championships - South Africa, IM North Carolina 70.3
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
NavEEd
Aug 21, 15 10:35
Post #12 of 47 Views: 5171
On reading this I realize I'm never qualifying for Kona. lol

Anyone have any EPO? :)

Just kidding. :)
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Runner Rick] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:36
Post #13 of 47 Views: 5164
Runner Rick wrote:
Fred D wrote:
To clarify, that's my weekly average... I did go over 10 hours a week at various points, but of course well under as well at other points.

Averaging 10 hours per week is a LOT different than only having max 10 hours a week to train. My yearly average is maybe half my hours in peak weeks.

That being said, it sounds like your intensity in your limited bike time has really paid off. It's not easy mentally to know every time you hop on the bike, you have to hammer.
agree. I am not trying to misrepresent my training. I get about 530 hours in a year overall.
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BubbaKardashian
Aug 21, 15 10:36
Post #14 of 47 Views: 5163
Great race and report.

Do you mind sharing what power meter and head capture unit you use?
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
alex_korr
Aug 21, 15 10:43
Post #15 of 47 Views: 5149
Very nice effort and a great write up as well!
Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Bryancd
Aug 21, 15 10:45
Post #16 of 47 Views: 5138
Like I mentioned in our FB group, Fred, you just need more run volume leading into the race. I think your initial pacing decision may have been an issue but if the point of the race was to KQ, those are the calls you have to make and the chances you have to take. You were 4th coming of the bike, so you were right there and it did take a while before you started to get shuffled back. I don't think if you went easier early it would have been materially different. You just needed the run fitness to go 3:3X and it wasn't in your legs.
-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
Team ZOOT
ZOOT, QR, Garmin, HED Wheels, Zealios, FormSwim, Precision Hydration, Rudy Project
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [BubbaKardashian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:57
Post #17 of 47 Views: 5087
Garmin 800.
Powertap (808)
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
teichs42
Aug 21, 15 10:58
Post #18 of 47 Views: 5085
Thanks for the insight. What did a normal week look like for you in terms of the bike? Not weeks where you were riding those long hours. Let's say 4-6 months out. Are you on the trainer most of the time?
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Bryancd] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 10:59
Post #19 of 47 Views: 5077
Agree, Bryan.

I actually needed a 3:50, but in the heat... that would have been tough. I believe I was in better run shape last year. So not 3:33, more like 3:40+. Add the heat and some hydration mistakes, and 3:50 was a stretch. I went for it, but fell apart later.

Was a struggle to even break 10' miles in the second loop
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc
Aug 21, 15 11:01
Post #20 of 47 Views: 5069
Good report

If I were that quick and wanted to qualify I'd bite the bullet and do a European IM. France 25-29 rolled to 23, don't know about other AG's but its so expensive for Europeans to consider HA that if you're at the pointy end it seems a better bet

That said I have 10 hours and relative to yourself I suck, so I'm taking up chess
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [teichs42] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 11:03
Post #21 of 47 Views: 5064
I'd say 3-5 hours on the bike. Much at high intensity. FTP and beyond.
I live in Central PA, so much on the trainer until mid April I think. I did a bit of riding in Florida in early March, maybe 3 rides?

I think my IF for the year of riding is something like 0.80 for ALL rides, with the shorter ones higher...
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maine Rob
Aug 21, 15 11:03
Post #22 of 47 Views: 5062
Fred D wrote:
Maine Rob wrote:
Congratulations on a great race. Those are great swim and bike times, and your hard work and consistency has clearly paid off. Rough day for running, but sounds like you've got it all in perspective.


It was on a razor's edge wrt the run, and the heat and a few other mistakes hurt me.

Remember racing IMLP in 2008? ;-)

Oh yeah, I remember the eight inches of rain. Definitely not a problem with overheating that day. That was actually my last ironman, although I'm getting back in the game and have signed up for next year's Mont-Tremblant. Also bought a powermeter (which just arrived today) and plan to get serious about the bike training.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 11:06
Post #23 of 47 Views: 5052
Andrewmc wrote:
Good report

If I were that quick and wanted to qualify I'd bite the bullet and do a European IM. France 25-29 rolled to 23, don't know about other AG's but its so expensive for Europeans to consider HA that if you're at the pointy end it seems a better bet

That said I have 10 hours and relative to yourself I suck, so I'm taking up chess

I think that's just the point... I'd rather just do the races I want to do and simply forget about the realities of Kona. It would be a stretch under my current life situation, and I'm not going to sacrifice being their for my kids/wife/job for the sake of being a BOP Kona guy.

I'm doing IMLP next year... definitely not the smart KQ choice, but I really like the race!
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Maine Rob] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 11:07
Post #24 of 47 Views: 5049
You will love IMMT.

Great venue!

Stay in the village.
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
devashish_paul
Aug 21, 15 11:11
Post #25 of 47 Views: 5043
Fred D wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
Awesome race.

From everything you said, i don't think you overbiked. I'll say the same thing as I said to Nate....I think people under estimate the first 10-20K of the run and that they may be overcooking the early part of the run. But it is soooo hard to tell because the over cook run pace in the first half is EASIER THAN EVERY ONE OF OUR EASY TRAINING RUNS (sorry, I used the Barry Shepley approved all caps). My good IM runs are done at the pace that I recover at in between run intervals. That's how easy the run pace ends up being in a "good IM". Also WTC run hydration really sucks. I wish they would give you full bottles of Gatorade like at Wildflower. You pick up a bottle and run with it for a couple of aid stations and get the full 710 mL in the bottle and dump it...those cups are not enough. At IM South Africa they had these really cool plastic bags with 200mL of ice cold water in them. You just bit off the corner and squirted an actual reasonable serving into your mouth. I thought that was awesome. My next IM I am not only starting the run with a full bottle of Infinite as I have done in the last few, but also putting a full bottle in special needs. I just find fluid in cups does not cut it in the heat.

Your race was still really awesome. Well done and I hope to see you chase the road to Kona.

I like this part of Owtback86's post

"Go back to the files, race decisions, etc. in a couple of weeks and assess what you did right and what you didn't. I think that's what makes IM so interesting - it's a constant science project with a bunch of variables. I would say you'll need to work out the sleep issue, since I've found that to be a killer. "


The sleep issue is my number 1 performance limiter. I am on the road 30 weeks per year, usually at least 3 time zones away, but more than half those weeks at 6-14 time zones away. I knew at my early season races, that would limit me and it did. Then I had a nice build at home before Whistler and had a really good half at Muskoka but froze at Whistler (I suck in that).....so I am back in that proverbial "constant science project mode"....just got support from home to go race in Tahoe if I want to extend this silly science project.


Thanks Dev!

There is some real gold in there. I aimed for 8-8:20 pace for the first 10 miles and it felt fine, but in retrospect, considering my lower running year, it was probably too fast considering the heat.

I did run 3:33 last year, and "felt" I was holding back. Probably wasn't.

Appreciate your thoughts.

Fred I think you have the right perspective....this journey that we are all on cannot be about KQ or FAIL. If I view my record, in that case I failed 90% of my IM's whereas I see them as a fulfilling compliment to life and a means to self improvement/introspection and connecting with like minded people.

But I truly believe that IM run pace is the pace that one can "recover" at during a normal day. Yesterday I went to the local track and did a set of 12x100, 10x200, 2x400m all at "target 10K pace" with 100m jog in between. The idea was to get the legs rolling quick but then the "interval" ends before the heart race crept up. The day was around 30C but Houston like humidity and through the 100's I was find to cruise in between at 5:20 to 5:30 perK (which should be my recovery pace), but then mid way through the 200's, the recovery pace dropped slower and slower with the humidity load. I could not cool myself fast enough to get the proper recovery before the next fast leg. I have done some track sessions in crazy humity in Taiwan and Japan in the summer where the only way I could get my heart rate down low enough was to break into a walk before the next "interval" (whatever interval is....it is a bit irrelevant, because that is the "load" segment....the recovery part is the "unload").

I think what happened in Tremblant is that people went out at their regular recovery/IM pace. That was fine for 21-30K (I see from your splits you headed out at last year's pace), but then after a while you're no longer at recovery pace.

At IM Texas I had a not great bike, but on a day a bit more severe than Tremblant I headed out super easy. I moved up from 30th off the bike to a 17th with a 4:09. I realize this is slow, but realitive to the guys around me it was actually fast in 50-54 (speed are relative).

Patrick McCrann from EN says if you under bike, you have 26 miles of running to make up for that mistake. I THINK we can take this further and say, "if you under biked and under ran the first 10 miles of the run, you get 16 miles to make up for that mistake". Especially on a hot humid day, on the run, there is no way of shaking off that thermal load without an insanely slow shuffle or a walk. Think about it this way....if you run at your bike effort of say 220W, that means you are generating 880W of heat. The only way to get rid of the 880W of heat as some point is you run slower and say go at 150W, which only generates 600W of heat.

Owtback86 used this heat generation calculation for a hot race at IMCda to appropriately meter out his run effort so as to not generate too much heat. On the bike, he air flow takes care of it....in Tremblant in the trail it would be a Taiwan sauna day.

I think you are a mix for a KQ...like I said last year after the 7 second miss, your T1 can be streamlined....you need to be sub 4:30 in Tremblant. But you are in the mix for sure for a KQ...and if you miss it, this is not failure. Kona is cherry on the cake....you still get the full cake of a 140.6 mile finish! Keep enjoying the sport.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
spudone
Aug 21, 15 11:19
Post #26 of 47 Views: 2134
Fred - you had a good performance on a hot day, and the bike split compared to your numbers is impressive. Hell, I pulled the plug on Coeur d'Alene this year just because I wasn't *mentally* up to facing the heat. For someone who doesn't live in that weather year round, you did really well.

Quote:
I honestly really just love SBR, and really like ironman racing. Love the process.

This is a great attitude and it's why I stick with it. I am not at your level, and my PE awhile back knocked me down about 40 watts, so Kona isn't even a glimmer for me. But I like racing and setting my own goals. I like the travel and the people in the sport. Keep the focus on those things, and your great family support, and you'll be in it for a long time.

Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IMPBAZ
Aug 21, 15 11:22
Post #27 of 47 Views: 2130
Do you walk the aid stations?
I find that if I take the time to hydrate better early in the run (I come off the bike somewhat depleted) it helps the second half of the marathon.
I can still run 3:3x to 3:4x with this strategy.

Paul Bakerman
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
IL2tri
Aug 21, 15 11:30
Post #28 of 47 Views: 2126
Great report! Thanks for sharing, I always enjoy reading other folks reports, you can really gain an appreciation for the time and thought we put into our passion we call triathlon.
I think you have a healthy perspective on the whole KQ thing. You have a lovely family, a good career and are blessed with the health to exercise to this extreme level.
My KQ "plan" is the "get older, don't slow down, and stay healthy" approach...4 years and it's slowly working;). Heck, I'm still getting faster every year! As a MOP I doubt I'll ever get there, but it sure will be fun trying! And if I don't, I'll still enjoy the challenge, the race venue trips with family and the new friends I make along the way.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Blog: https://swimbikerunrinserepeat.wordpress.com
Last edited by: IL2tri: Aug 21, 15 11:36
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
UKINNY
Aug 21, 15 11:37
Post #29 of 47 Views: 2113
Great performance , I think a little more run mileage and you are there which I know is hard when you have less time

Very aero on those watts , I rode 252 for a 5-20 at placid and I weigh less than you , I need to get in a tunnel
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
afrizzledfry
Aug 21, 15 12:22
Post #30 of 47 Views: 2070
Great report. Thanks for sharing. Not trying to be snarky...but a bagel and pop tarts prior to an IM really makes me question not just your race day nutrition, but your day to day nutritional decisions also. Perhaps there's some time to be gained with better food choices? Just a thought.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BubbaKardashian
Aug 21, 15 12:45
Post #31 of 47 Views: 2058
I second the comment on "aero watts." That's why I asked what power meter was used. I have the same bike, same setup, disc, latex, BTA, rear, aero helmet, nearly same height and weight, similar position judging from the photos provided, rode almost exact NP for the IMMT course, and I'm nowhere near a 5 hours flat on those watts. Most perplexing.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Maine Rob
Aug 21, 15 13:54
Post #32 of 47 Views: 2002
I've heard that it's beautiful, and it certainly looks that way. We already reserved a condo in the village.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [UKINNY] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 21, 15 14:01
Post #33 of 47 Views: 1995
Yeah 252 for 5:20 at IMLP seems like you have some low hanging fruit!. Should post your position and set up, although to be honest you should consider some wind tunnel guidance as well, as what looks aero, doesn't always mean it's aero. FWIW, I try to stay aero as possible for all but the steepest climbs. Lots of people briefly pass me on climbs, but I soon pass back on the flat out downhill. I can almost guarantee that you could be faster with those watts
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag
Aug 21, 15 14:35
Post #34 of 47 Views: 1974
Hi Fred,

what was your peak CTL for the bike and separately for the run leading up to the race ?
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 25, 15 10:26
Post #35 of 47 Views: 1808
Marc, I apologize for the late response... been working too much!

CTL for the run peak 38

CTL for the bike 67

(From May-August)
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [BubbaKardashian] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 25, 15 10:28
Post #36 of 47 Views: 1802
My power meter might read lower than yours?

I stay aero a huge % of the time. Ride the best tires and tubes. Ride at 90 PSI.

I dunno if there is much value in comparing PMs between different riders, but for what it's worth I usually ride in the top 1% for most races at HIM/IM level, with or without a PM.
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag
Aug 25, 15 10:59
Post #37 of 47 Views: 1777
Fred D wrote:
Marc, I apologize for the late response... been working too much!

CTL for the run peak 38

CTL for the bike 67

(From May-August)

Thanks. While I have not done a full, my best HIMs are when the two numbers are pretty close to each other.

While I know some people don't believe in rTSS, if your threshold pace is properly set, those numbers speak for themselves in terms of what you were best prepared for. It would be interesting to see what they were the year before when you ran so well.

I know there was some injuries involved but do those numbers also include the fact you simply love to ride ?
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [marcag] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 25, 15 12:11
Post #38 of 47 Views: 1726
Probably a bit of both Marc. I do love riding. I also had a few running injuries this year. The issue is I seem to be able to ride at very high intensity with little recovery penalty... I run at very easy paces, and clearly not enough. I suspect there is more low hanging fruit for me to increase the run volume, but not the intensity. Good thoughts, thanks!
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MTL
Aug 25, 15 12:34
Post #39 of 47 Views: 1706
First congrats great performance.

You asked what went wrong during your run?

You overbiked for the bike durability you have it definitely impacted your run potential. Training for an Ironman on 10 hours/week schedule is a lot less than most of the guys that finished in front of you.

IMO, you should have come very close to 5th position in your AG. Look at the splits from that guy which I consider might have better suited you: 1:04 swim - 5:11 bike and 3:33 run. ¨Pretty sure that 11 mins on the bike cost you 35 minutes on the run,
you going to argue that the watts were in your Ironman range pace but if your statement is correct regarding the number of hours your train, I'm sure you lack bike mileage (durability).

It's a life balance choice you made and personally, I do the same. In order to KQ, if you don't modify anything in your training approach, you will need some sort of luck at a race where you
will have a great race but not strong field in AG.

Congrats once again and good luck in IMLP 2016

Alex
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Run For Money
Aug 25, 15 12:49
Post #40 of 47 Views: 1684
Good bike split, but obviously you don't have the overall fitness/run fitness to connect the two hence the 4 hour plus marathon.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Run For Money] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 25, 15 13:15
Post #41 of 47 Views: 1651
I hear u guys. I didn't have it on that day. Last year, I was slightly less fit. Swam 1:06, biked 5:09 and ran 3:33 on very similar training hours. I hit an IF of .74 last year, this year .69. I intentionally took a lot off on the ride due to the heat. If you look at the runs in my age group, I actually had the 25th? Best run this year. Yeah, it was not what I wanted, but it was really hot. I blew up, but most did that day. In my opinion, I might have pulled this off if the weather has been more moderate. As it was, the heat exposed me (and a number of others) for what I was. Again, ran 3:33 on even less training last year with a harder (but not faster) effort. It's why races like kona are so hard... They separate the men from the boys (or women from the girls). I race on the razors edge... Barely enough training for Ironman, and sometimes I get away with it. I crush the HIM distance more... Maybe I should smarten up and focus there, ha!
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Fred D] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
natethomas
Aug 25, 15 13:39
Post #42 of 47 Views: 1634
Fred, sounds like we had pretty similar races and don't quite understand the crappy run. I feel it had to be the heat as the primary reason. I also biked at a lower wattage than planned and came off the bike 3rd in my AG. Watts were lower than two years ago (232 Ap in 2013 and 228 AP this year), when I ran a crappy 3:35 and this year I ran a 3:50. All we can do is give it a go again in the future.

Interesting thing is that I was 15 min faster on lower watts. I spent a lot of time tweaking my position and making the bike as aero as possible, but don't think that can make up 15 minutes.
Blog: http://262toboylstonstreet.blogspot.com/
https://twitter.com/NateThomasTri
Coaching: https://bybtricoaching.com/ - accepting athletes for 2023
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [natethomas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
marcag
Aug 25, 15 14:03
Post #43 of 47 Views: 1617
natethomas wrote:
Interesting thing is that I was 15 min faster on lower watts. I spent a lot of time tweaking my position and making the bike as aero as possible, but don't think that can make up 15 minutes.

Nate, stick it in Golden Cheetah's Aerolab and see what is going on.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
markko
Aug 26, 15 1:16
Post #44 of 47 Views: 1545
Andrewmc wrote:
Good report

If I were that quick and wanted to qualify I'd bite the bullet and do a European IM. France 25-29 rolled to 23, don't know about other AG's but its so expensive for Europeans to consider HA that if you're at the pointy end it seems a better bet

That said I have 10 hours and relative to yourself I suck, so I'm taking up chess

Well, 25-29 is certainly different from middle AG (40+) in terms of means to travel to Kona. Otherwise I can only recommend racing in Europe, but doing it for easier KQ might be a fools errand. For example in my AG 40-44, IM Mallorca, tough course, hot weather, with 10h one would be 39th, top 10 9.30....If you look at fast races like IM Barcelona, then sub 9 might be required.

Anyway, nice report. I have my IM Vichy next weekend, seems to be extremely hot as well, not really chasing Kona (see above), original plan was to go <9.30, with the heat, lets see.
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [markko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Darren325
Aug 27, 15 16:52
Post #45 of 47 Views: 1430
A really refreshing race report and view of the entire Ironman experience. I remember reading your story last year and really feeling for you with only a 7 second difference to KQ. Even more remarkable that you achieve this performance on the training hours you have with a demanding job too.

I've heard so many people mention the heat in MT. What were the temps like? I saw a weather report that said 30 degrees (86). Is this accurate?
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [markko] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 27, 15 18:20
Post #46 of 47 Views: 1367
I agree, KQ in Europe is harder than the USA in my age group. My age group has the money to actually go
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Quote Reply
Re: IMMT RR. 9th in M45-49. No Kona. Melted on the run... Strangely ok with the way it unfolded [Darren325] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fred D
Aug 27, 15 18:24
Post #47 of 47 Views: 1362
I don't know, but it was humid and hot. I appreciate your comments. I have zero disappointment I my races... I gave my best last year and this year. Wasn't good enough (13th, 9th in age group) for kona, but was pretty good considering my overall life. My kona, will be Savageman a few weeks ;-)
Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Last edited by: Fred D: Aug 27, 15 18:25
Quote Reply
Back To ForumPrint Thread

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.